Pakistan performance against Ireland suspiciously poor

gbh

Watching the highlights of the game Pakistan Vs Ireland even before the death of Bob Woolmer, I couldn't help but notice the very poor, almost deliberately so, shot selection by the Pakistanis. How many times did their batsmen edge the ball to a catcher. Looking again it seems like they were trying to hand the game to the Irish. They underperformed, but did they deliberately do so is the question. After all, betting rings plagued cricket in the past, have they come back to haunt the sport?

Chucky the tree

I have started a thread in news and media about Bob's death. Since the ones was closed its a decent place to talk about. the last thread was closed, i dont know if this one will last long.

gbh

ok, thanks.

TrueDub

It's possible, but unlike other games that were fixed, this one resulted in the Pakistan team being eliminated from the World Cup. I can't see them being prepared to take that flak at home for a fixed game.

LuckyLloyd

TrueDub wrote:

It's possible, but unlike other games that were fixed, this one resulted in the Pakistan team being eliminated from the World Cup. I can't see them being prepared to take that flak at home for a fixed game.

If each player had placed €20,000 on Ireland to win in a clever fashion that kept it below the radar and allowed them all to keep 75% of the return on each stake I think they might feel able to live with it.

TrueDub

Possibly, lloyd, but getting 15 players onside like that is more difficult than you'd think. Still, you never know.

mike65

Pakistan have been something less than a confident side for a year now, it was said (by me and a few others) that they could be got at. While the rumour mill grinds, and loves to do so unless someone actually has some evidence its pretty thin gruel to build a thread on in my view.

Mike.

KevIRL

Unsubstanciated crap really.

Pakistan were beaten by the better team on the day.

LuckyLloyd

TrueDub wrote:

Possibly, lloyd, but getting 15 players onside like that is more difficult than you'd think. Still, you never know.

I agree of course. Considering the ferocity of the Pakistan media and public, the money won would need to be life changing, and all the team would need to be in on it.

As such, organising it for the neccesary stakes and keeping it on the QT would be very difficult. My post is playing Devil's advocate more than anything else.

DMC

Its amazing how conspiracy theorists, or sh1t stirrers, conveniently disregard other aspects of the day itself. The toss, the pitch and Ireland's general play on the day were the deciding factors.

Its nigh on impossible to get 11 players singing the bookies tune. Hansie Cronje proved that.

Quixote1064

Came across this the other day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiSKRzAepA

Probably goes against the conspiracy theory unless Aussie selector, Jamie Cox was in on it too?!

Anyone know what a smokie is?

positron

Yeah, its nearly impossible to get the entire team in a match-fixing effort. A corrupt selector, captain and a few key players could, in theory, by making the wrong decisions intentionally, could get a team to lose a match, even if other players try their best to win it. However, the match against Ireland was not lost like that, IMHO!

[mod edit] careful now

gbh

Well maybe its me putting two and two together. Its just all the circumstances taken together lead me to think that way. I hope I'm wrong about it and that Ireland keep their performances up. And I admit it is a conspiracy theory. But at this point in time, with the Pakistan team being interviewed, the death being suspicious and just the way Pakistan played very poor, could there be any link between these events. Again i hope there wasn't as it would taint the Irish victory.

RuggieBear

Until i see hard evidence i think this is unsubstanciated ****e.

mikeruurds

It's really simple. Pakistan have been dodgy for a while now, blowing hot and cold from one day to the next. If there was any time that they were vulnerable it was in the early stages of this World Cup.

They have just come off of a massive beating on a long tour to South Africa and there has been a lot of tension in the ranks with a few players struggling for form and consistency.

I just don't buy all of this match-fixing conspiracy crap. If a match were to be fixed it would be in the Super 8s when there would be more money riding on the games. Anyone who knows anything about Pakistani cricket will know full well that there is no way that the team would agree to any match fixing that would stop them from getting through to the tournament proper. Money means nothing when you can't walk the streets in Pakistan as a Pakistani team member without fearing for your life.

Ireland were excellent on the day and Pakistan were mediocre. It's as simple as that. In fact, even though I'm a diehard South Africa supporter, I get angry when I hear people writing off the Irish victory as a fix. I find it hard to believe that an entire team could be convinced to collude to the degree that people are insinuating to achieve that result.

Give the boys their fair dues. They played their hearts out and bested one of the top teams in the world. That's what history will say.

Mike

gbh

All I am saying is that Pakistan had a stinker of a day at the office, and that 99 times out of a hundred they would beat Ireland. If Ireland do well against West Indies or England then fair enough I'll say no more on the issue.

RuggieBear

I suppose Zimbabwe threw their game against us too...wonder what odds they would have gotten on a draw.

ninebeanrows

But the questions remains how did Bob die and who helped him?

Different signs coming out this evening, it's all very disturbing one way or another..

county

DMC wrote:

Its amazing how conspiracy theorists, or sh1t stirrers, conveniently disregard other aspects of the day itself. The toss, the pitch and Ireland's general play on the day were the deciding factors.

Its nigh on impossible to get 11 players singing the bookies tune. Hansie Cronje proved that.

nail on the head there DMC.

Samaris

I reckon the Martians had a huge bet on Ireland to win cos Ireland is the same shade of green as them, so they hypnotised the Pakistani players to throw the game...:D

Ok, really, can't we accept that maybe the Irish side are pretty good and Pakistan was beaten fair and square?

EDIT: Ok, looks like I was wrong about the coach. Go figure...

Placebo

KevIRL wrote:

Unsubstanciated crap really.

Pakistan were beaten by the better team on the day.

ireland couldnt even beat zimbab !!!!!
no ODI status, not a better team man, they PLAYED better .

Pakistan have been done for throwing games before, not sure how well people here have ever kept up with cricket but people like Hansee Cronia have been caught before for fixing games.

REALLY not a CONSPIRACY THEORY as people call it, it maybe a grey area, theres no conspiracy lads.

gbh

DMC wrote:

Its amazing how conspiracy theorists, or sh1t stirrers, conveniently disregard other aspects of the day itself. The toss, the pitch and Ireland's general play on the day were the deciding factors.

Its nigh on impossible to get 11 players singing the bookies tune. Hansie Cronje proved that.

First off you don't need 11 players to throw a game. Anyone with a clue about cricket which I'm presuming you do would know that even one player on his own can make a major difference either way. Take an all rounder like Andrew Flintoff. In a major game such as the Ashes, the team are depending on him to (a) bowl well (b) field well and (c) bat well, otherwise they can forget about a decent performance. If Freddie decided to bowl badly and allow the batsmen a few boundaries and sixes, if he fielded poorly and missed a few catches, and if he batted badly, then that could be the winning of the game for the opposition. And that is not idle speculation. Its different to GAA where one bad player can not determine the outcome of the match.

So Cricket matches can be decided by a single key player playing badly - all the scandels in the past have not being because of whole teams but more single players or even Captains such as that South African guy picking the wrong formation.

But like I say if the Irish game and the other events are unconnected then I would be the first to say i got it wrong, and if vice versa i hope the same goes.

DMC

I'm remarking that someone thought it suspect that all Pakistan players were out caught. You more or less expanded my original thoughts.

Of course, Hansie Cronje showed that he could only approach the junior (at the time) members of the team, Gibbs being one. He couldn't approch, Donald Pollock or Rhodes, for instance.

gbh

Fair enough.

kpnuts

Only one Irish player bowled out today, all of the others were CAUGHT out. Does this indicate that Ireland may have taken a bung to let the hosts win? Come on, where are the conspiracy theorists tonight!

Endurance Man

kpnuts wrote:

Only one Irish player bowled out today, all of the others were CAUGHT out. Does this indicate that Ireland may have taken a bung to let the hosts win? Come on, where are the conspiracy theorists tonight!

Comparing the Irish batting lineup with the Pakistan lineup is retarded, Pakistan has several very experienced ODI players.

Placebo

DMC wrote:

I'm remarking that someone thought it suspect that all Pakistan players were out caught. You more or less expanded my original thoughts.

Of course, Hansie Cronje showed that he could only approach the junior (at the time) members of the team, Gibbs being one. He couldn't approch, Donald Pollock or Rhodes, for instance.

mate my point was proven when ireland played against the west indies,
their bowling side is POOR as hell, one player single handedly won west indies the match, 106 not out.
now if u think ireland are capable of getting all of pakistan out because of their SUPERB bowling skills, youre wrong.
not to even get into the 'why was the coach killed so ?'

i hope ireland do well in the tournament, but they didnt beat pak by skill.
im not claiming 'all caught out' to be a prime and only point of my suspicion, its only one of the factors that makes me question their performance.

gbh

kpnuts wrote:

Only one Irish player bowled out today, all of the others were CAUGHT out. Does this indicate that Ireland may have taken a bung to let the hosts win? Come on, where are the conspiracy theorists tonight!

Don't know how this can be answered, its certainly a strange addition to this thread. Who ever said Ireland were taking bungs?? Ireland were obviously not good enough to beat the West Indies, they were beaten by 6 wickets and the Wendies had something like 12 overs to spare.

DMC

Placebo wrote:

mate my point was proven when ireland played against the west indies,
their bowling side is POOR as hell, one player single handedly won west indies the match, 106 not out.
now if u think ireland are capable of getting all of pakistan out because of their SUPERB bowling skills, youre wrong.
not to even get into the 'why was the coach killed so ?'

i hope ireland do well in the tournament, but they didnt beat pak by skill.
im not claiming 'all caught out' to be a prime and only point of my suspicion, its only one of the factors that makes me question their performance.

So you disregard that the toss or the pitch helped the Irish bowlers?

Your point was not proven by the West Indies performance. Ireland played way above themselves in the previous 2 matches.

**** the begrudgers, tbh. Typical Irish reaction when a team is successful. :mad: It's people like that who ruin good times for people.

Fact is, why would the Pakistani's bet against themselves to get themselves out of the Super 8's? That doesn't add up. There were bigger matches to bet on in the Super 8's.

Mossy Monk

always happens. when a team does well out from the woodwork comes the begrudgers :mad:

TrueDub

Placebo wrote:

i hope ireland do well in the tournament, but they didnt beat pak by skill.im not claiming 'all caught out' to be a prime and only point of my suspicion, its only one of the factors that makes me question their performance.

Sheesh - some people will see conspiracies around every corner, evidence or no evidence. Time to click the ignore button, methinks.

Marshy

Placebo wrote:

mate my point was proven when ireland played against the west indies,
their bowling side is POOR as hell, one player single handedly won west indies the match, 106 not out.
now if u think ireland are capable of getting all of pakistan out because of their SUPERB bowling skills, youre wrong.

I dont think youre looking at things in perspective. Saying the Irish bowling is poor as hell isnt at all fair. Yes, they're no world beaters but most of them have a day job back at home. You can argue it all you want but the reason they bowled out pakistan so cheaply was down to 3 reasons I can see: the toss, the pitch and poor shot selection from pak.

The game against the windies was a much different story. That was a good batting pitch. Ireland simply didnt get close to enough runs. The bowlers werent great but the worlds best would have been hard pressed to defend that total.

gbh

I dont think it's begrudgery as such, just in the cold light of day, toss and pitch to Ireland's advantage, etc , I don't think Ireland would beat Pakistan if Pakistan really wanted to win. Just in my opinion, watching the game and watching the wickets taken again on other media, i have my suspicions that Pakistan didn't play out of their skins. I hope i'm wrong about this. But there seem to be other people on here who think in a similar way to me.

I for one would like to see this ruled out so that the Irish team can be given their full credit. But with all the other events, there may well be a link between the Pakistan performance and other events. Maybe in fact we will never know, because of a code of silence of some sort.

At the same time, we have to hand it to the Ireland team for winning.

Don't think i will say much more on this though.

redzerdrog

get a grip and think about it for one moment it makes no sense what so ever for pak to throw the game against ireland

gbh

redzerdrog wrote:

get a grip and think about it for one moment it makes no sense what so ever for pak to throw the game against ireland

Look some of the most knowledgeble people in cricket have come out and suggested this could be linked to match fixing, and you think you know more than them. Anything is possible when it comes to the Pakistan cricket squad, if you have followed the news in the past. The murder was definately not a burgulary because no valuables were taken. It is 99.9% certain it is linked to cricket, do you not agree. I hate speculating but surely you would agree with this?

Do you not think the timing was odd? Do you not agree that Bob Woolmer was one of the most knowledgeable and best coaches in the world and therefore would spot a thrown game? Why would he be murdered for telling lies?

Again trying to avoid speculation, but the motive for match fixing was far greater against Ireland than any other team because of the huge odds against Ireland, i think around 20/1. Against any other team, the odds were much smaller. So do you not at least agree that the Irish game could be linked to the other event?

Again it might seem i am speculating too much and because i havent all the facts at hand i have to speculate and discuss what is at hand. But thats what you do on forums isnt it?

Placebo

DMC wrote:

So you disregard that the toss or the pitch helped the Irish bowlers?

Your point was not proven by the West Indies performance. Ireland played way above themselves in the previous 2 matches.

**** the begrudgers, tbh. Typical Irish reaction when a team is successful. :mad: It's people like that who ruin good times for people.

Fact is, why would the Pakistani's bet against themselves to get themselves out of the Super 8's? That doesn't add up. There were bigger matches to bet on in the Super 8's.

jeez, chillout, fair play for ireland for winning. Ive been witnessing pak lose like this for a long time, so its not about me not being able to accept the fact theyre out of the cup.
Yes the pitch and weather had a great effect on the match, but irish bowlers, with basically no odi status whatsoever failed to get the team out by good pace and line, they were all caught. Westindies played it on the ground on a great pitch and ireland only managed to get 3-4.
Time will tell how good the bowling ACTUALLY is. enjoy

redzerdrog

do you not think suspicion would arise if there was significant money on ireland at 20/1???
does it not make more sence that the WI game was fixed??
or that they had planned to fix a super 8 game but didnt make it there for it to happen???

Placebo

i dont see how it makes more sense if westindies game was fixed? westindies are a much better team (am i allowed to say that ? or is that too harsh).
Think il give it a rest here, if ireland can beat pakistan then they can beat 80% of the teams to come in the super 8's.

Endurance Man

Placebo wrote:

Think il give it a rest here, if ireland can beat pakistan then they can beat 80% of the teams to come in the super 8's.

LOL

redzerdrog

if isreal cant hold engerland to a draw sure they should beat everyone else outside the to ten:rolleyes:

gbh

redzerdrog wrote:

do you not think suspicion would arise if there was significant money on ireland at 20/1???
does it not make more sence that the WI game was fixed??
or that they had planned to fix a super 8 game but didnt make it there for it to happen???

Well from the word on the street it would seem that it is more likely that Pakistan bookmakers are more involved in this kind of activity generally than many others. The police are investigating if there was much money placed on Ireland or other teams Pakistan played or what they call 'suspicious betting patterns'. The very tight regulations imposed on the players such as not allowing them mobile phones or contact with other people during games indicates the depth of the problem generally.

Look i am only speculating on this and what my opinion is. It could be wrong, it could be right, time will tell.

Think i will rest it as well - hope ireland do well also.

DMC

Placebo wrote:

jeez, chillout, fair play for ireland for winning. Ive been witnessing pak lose like this for a long time, so its not about me not being able to accept the fact theyre out of the cup.
Yes the pitch and weather had a great effect on the match, but irish bowlers, with basically no odi status whatsoever failed to get the team out by good pace and line, they were all caught. Westindies played it on the ground on a great pitch and ireland only managed to get 3-4.
Time will tell how good the bowling ACTUALLY is. enjoy

It really irritates me when people come out and say "it must have been a fix cause Ireland won."

You are clutching at straws with the "all out caught" theory. Seamy conditions made for unplayable shots. I have no doubt that if Ireland lost the toss and Pakistan skittled them out for next to nothing, this discussion would not be happening. Out bowling attack is not that spectacular, but conditions like that were the best Ireland could hope for. Green-top wickets are an Irish delicacy

Again we return to the fact that it nigh on impossible to nobble 11 players.

And just in case you are wondering, I'm not blinkered by patriotism and nationalism, its just how I see it. And I watched all 100 or so overs.

redzerdrog was right on the money there comparing it to Israel drawing with England. Every dog has its day.

Placebo wrote:

i dont see how it makes more sense if westindies game was fixed? westindies are a much better team (am i allowed to say that ? or is that too harsh).
Think il give it a rest here, if ireland can beat pakistan then they can beat 80% of the teams to come in the super 8's.

West Indies are a better team than Ireland, thats not rocket science. As was said here, and at the risk of repeating myself, Pakistan had to win the Ireland game to get a chance of going into the Super 8's. Lose, and they were out. It was in the best interests of bookies for Pakistan to qualify, as they had bigger and better matches to lay or back Pakistan.

The West Indies-Pakistan match was touch-and-go as to who would be favourites.

To conclude, it wouldn't surprise me of one or two players were on the make, but its barmy to suggest that 11 players were all singing from the same betting slip.

Chucky the tree

So the players were allowed leave the island because MArk shields didnt want to cause a diplomatic incident. And there is no extradiction treaty between the two countries.

positron

DMC wrote:

It really irritates me when people come out and say "it must have been a fix cause Ireland won."

You are right about that - you should have heard Imran Khan on telly immediately after Pakistan lost against Ireland. He was obviously emotional: ".. fourth best team in the world and lost it against who.. Ireland...?? A bunch weekend cricketers!?".

I had to laugh because I can understand his anguish, and its so true because Indian and Pakistani players are pros - all they do is play cricket - and Irish players earn their living doing normal 9-5 jobs!

Placebo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuoBH-5-c_M


watch that, dont quit your 9-5 job and watch it.
thats all.
Doesnt even matter if it was ireland, pak would have lost against bermuda.

Rjd2

If you wanted to throw a game the easiest way to get yourself out, is run yourself out, the best example was Singh was against Sri Lanka(no he was not cheating he was just being really reckless). I dont think their was any run outs in the Ireland game was their?

gbh

Placebo wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuoBH-5-c_M


watch that, dont quit your 9-5 job and watch it.
thats all.
Doesnt even matter if it was ireland, pak would have lost against bermuda.

Yah Placebo, I watched it a few days ago. Woolmer must have been pulling his hair out watching that. Some shot selection there should be in a 'what-not-to-do in cricket' manual. Have to credit the skill and placement of shots by some of the batsmen however.

Marshy

Placebo wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuoBH-5-c_M


watch that, dont quit your 9-5 job and watch it.
thats all.
Doesnt even matter if it was ireland, pak would have lost against bermuda.

Why are you trying to belittle the achievement? Just accept that it was a great result for Irish cricket. Dont spoil everyone elses joy by making hasty, unsubstantiated comments.

RuggieBear

placebo, please stop beating this drum.

HonalD

Can I finish this one off, once and for all.....I was there..I saw it with my own two eyes...I've seen the entire match again....Ireland caught 10 out of 10 chances...YOU CANNOT FIX THAT! Bring on England

dereko1969

was there too and there was no way the pakistan team threw the game, placebo did you even look at trent johnston's catch and eoin morgans one down at his toes? did you see sami eyeballing niall o'brien after every ball and trying to decapitate him with a few. do you know anything about cricket? it was a stunning performance by ireland, enough said.