banned islam why?

metrovelvet

Good morning.

I was posting on a thread about hijab and I had a question about what Islamic feminsit and queer theorists had to say about it. And I was banned.

This morning I was watching a documentary about Islamic lesbians [Im in NYC atm with insomnia] in the US and they werent wearing hijabs, one was wearing no head covering and the other had their head in a skull and cap bandana, and they still considered themselves to be Muslims.

So, I feel this was a genuine question and I was silenced as was the whole dialogue.

Seeing as how the topic is around female dress, it seems more than suitable that someone should investigate what islamic feminist and or queer theory has to say about it, or is that forum far too fundamental for that?

r3nu4l

I've not read any of your posts but perhaps it's the style or tone of posting you are using that is the problem more than the questions themselves?

Have you PM'ed any of the Islam mods to discuss your ban?

I find that with any sensitive subjects it's better to ensure that you are showing respect if you are asking a question that is potentially a 'thorny issue'. I'm not saying roll over and fawn but at least let people know that you are being serious

metrovelvet

I dont know who banned me so I cant pm them.

Why dont you read it and decide for yourself. I did not attack anyone, I just wanted to know what a marginalised but relevant group of people thought on the subject, particulalrly women - when there seem to be NO women talking about it.

r3nu4l

Well your post has gone now so I can't view it. I'm sure one of the Islam mods will be along soon enough, either here or by PM, to let you know what happened

WhiteWashMan

who knows. tbh, i never understood the rules on that forum.

it all seems to be about 5 people going around in a circle and never actually appearing to understand that they just dont agree on many things.

when someone pipes in with 'who are we to question (insert your favourite religious icon here)' you know that you are always going to be on a loser when it comes getting someone to try and understand a point.

personally, id ask this question on the forum, but im sure even making tat point is probably against the charter in some fashion.

Boston

The moderators of the islamic forum are a pretty backwards and isolated bunch. I wouldn't get stressed about it.

humanji

Boston wrote:

The moderators of the islamic forum are a pretty backwards and isolated bunch. I wouldn't get stressed about it.

Looking to get a ban are we?

Boston

And why would I be banned.

bonkey

metrovelvet wrote:

I had a question about what Islamic feminsit and queer theorists had to say about it. And I was banned.

You were banned for asking about Islamic feminist queer theorists????

How shocking.

Its almost as if someone didn't understand that both "Islamic feminist theorist" and "Islamic queer theorist" are both correct and respectful titles to use.

Boston

I don't see the problem bonkey, perhaps explain it to those of us that are a bit s l o w. Was it pointed out to him that these terms for whatever reason are unacceptable to use.

Dragan

Metro, your down on the ban list in the charter for 1 week.

I can only assume your questions were about something extremely delicate.

kmick

They are a sensitive bunch over there and asking a balanced question about Islam is likely to get you a Magic 8 Ball type response. Asking questions about Gay people on there goes down like a lead ballon. Apparently according to a discussion on there - Gay people get a hundred lashes just for being gay They are a world apart over there - its like going back to the middle ages and asking a question about Transistor Radios. You would likely have been burned at the stake. Stay away from there if you value your sanity.

Sangre

You were banned because Allah wills it.

Beruthiel

Metro
It was Hobbes who banned you, he seemed to think you were taking the piss. I honestly don't see how, but I never go into that forum.
From your posts in PI, I have never seen you take the piss out of any one. Can't speak for anywhere else you post of course.
Perhaps drop him a PM and explain that your question was a serious one.

RuggieBear

Maybe he prefaced the question with "I'm straight"

Blowfish

Boston wrote:

I don't see the problem bonkey, perhaps explain it to those of us that are a bit s l o w. Was it pointed out to him that these terms for whatever reason are unacceptable to use.

Well I suppose that it is possible for those terms to come accross as belittling and/or offensive. If a religion is against either of those topics, its not hard to see how it would be a sensitive subject to them.

Boston

Dragan wrote:

I can only assume your questions were about something extremely delicate.

Well thats fair enough :rolleyes:

It's says a lot about hobbes that he thinks anyone raising these issues has to be a troll and dismiss them out of hand. unfit mod tbh.

Boston

Blowfish wrote:

Well I suppose that it is possible for those terms to come accross as belittling and/or offensive. If a religion is against either of those topics, its not hard to see how it would be a sensitive subject to them.

The only way you would find those terms offensive is if you found linking Islam and lesbianism or feminism offensive. The terms Queer theory and Feminist Theory are common enough. If raising these topics will earn you a ban, it should say so in the charter.



RuggieBear: no one's ever been banned for that.

RuggieBear

Boston wrote:

RuggieBear: no one's ever been banned for that.

yet!

Nevyn

The Islam is about the religion and spirituality of islam not the culture of islamic countires.

Certain things will be off topic in that forum the same way a discussion about the magdalene laundries would be off topic in the christainity forum.

Just because you are practicing an faith does not mean you agree with acts carried out in the name of that faith in other countries or even this country.


Metorvelvet why that forum and not humanities ?

seamus

With metrovelvet's permission, I'll actually post up what you posted on that thread. I can see why he thought you were taking the piss, but it may just have been the tone of the post.

Boston

Thaedydal wrote:

The Islam is about the religion and spirituality of islam not the culture of islamic countires.

Certain things will be off topic in that forum the same way a discussion about the magdalene laundries would be off topic in the christainity forum.

Just because you are practicing an faith does not mean you agree with acts carried out in the name of that faith in other countries or even this country.


Metorvelvet why that forum and not humanities ?

He wasn't banned for being off-topic, he was banned for being a troll. Why delete rather then move the thread. why not just say The forum is about "the religion and spirtuality of islam and not the culture"? The guy didn't do anything wrong bar, as you suggest, post the topic in the wrong forum, happens all the time on boards, few moderators ban for it.

Blowfish

Boston wrote:

He wasn't banned for being off-topic, he was banned for being a troll. Why delete rather then move the thread. why not just say The forum is about "the religion and spirtuality of islam and not the culture"? The guy didn't do anything wrong bar, as you suggest, post the topic in the wrong forum, happens all the time on boards, few moderators ban for it.

Generally its threads that get posted in the wrong forum. From what I can work out, this post was in the middle of someone elses thread.

Dragan

Boston wrote:

He wasn't banned for being off-topic, he was banned for being a troll. Why delete rather then move the thread. why not just say The forum is about "the religion and spirtuality of islam and not the culture"? The guy didn't do anything wrong bar, as you suggest, post the topic in the wrong forum, happens all the time on boards, few moderators ban for it.

Boston, first off he is a she.

Secondly, there is no need for YOU to pick a fight with everyone who comes along to post in this thread with a possible reason as to why she was banned.

At the end of the day she was banned for whatever reasons and the Mod in question will be with her as soon as they can. Maybe her post was worded terribly and just came across completely the wrong way. Maybe not.... we'll know in a while.

Until then I simply suggest you calm it down a little bit as you coming across as the type of person who sits in feedback waiting for things to jump on people over, which i'm sure you not.

InFront

Originally posted by metrovelvet
Good morning.

I was posting on a thread about hijab and I had a question about what Islamic feminsit and queer theorists had to say about it. And I was banned.

This morning I was watching a documentary about Islamic lesbians [Im in NYC atm with insomnia] in the US and they werent wearing hijabs, one was wearing no head covering and the other had their head in a skull and cap bandana, and they still considered themselves to be Muslims.

So, I feel this was a genuine question and I was silenced as was the whole dialogue.

Seeing as how the topic is around female dress, it seems more than suitable that someone should investigate what islamic feminist and or queer theory has to say about it, or is that forum far too fundamental for that?

Hobbes already warned people about attacking Islam in that thread, at least two times, and warned that some people could end up taking a holiday; asking the question that metrovelvet asked, especially in light of some earlier references to the sharia and homosexuality, makes it look like it was an invitation to start a flame war...

The moderators of the islamic forum are a pretty backwards and isolated bunch. I wouldn't get stressed about it.

...like that.

seamus

Blowfish wrote:

Generally its threads that get posted in the wrong forum. From what I can work out, this post was in the middle of someone elses thread.

Correct. It was a one-line post in the middle of a thread. Where the post is deemed to be trolling, it's more prudent to remove the post, as people will continue to respond to it, dragging the thread off-topic. If a mod is going to remove the post, I'd prefer if it was deleted rather than edited, that way we can still see the details of it.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

Hobbes already warned people about attacking Islam in that thread, at least two times, and warned that some people could end up taking a holiday; asking the question that metrovelvet asked, especially in light of some earlier references to the sharia and homosexuality, makes it look like it was an invitation to start a flame war...

How is asking a question an attack on Islam?

Although it must be noted I can't see the actual post.

Boston

Blowfish wrote:

Generally its threads that get posted in the wrong forum. From what I can work out, this post was in the middle of someone elses thread.

Banable offense is it?

Dragan: meh, I care not what I come accross as.

InFront: I can see how a rational person would view the topics raised as an attack... really I can.


As sangre said I've not seen the offending posts either.

Filan

My personal opinion , not just based on my experience here is that Muslims view questioning as a threat and Questions are rarely answered in the Islam forum. Is it not an inalienable right to question and to be questioned?. So often, including on Boards, Muslims, including Moderators try to pretend that anachronistic passages of the Koran are 'bad translations' (this I have encountered so many times!)...yet no alternative translation is provided. Or these passages are "not the real Islam"....why are certain passges any less the real Islam than others? These questions are never directly answered. I think they are in state of denial as to the contents of the Koran and high levels of paranoia prevail. They have done themselves and their image no favours.

Incidentally is anyone aware of a site where one can have an intelligent, open and above all honest debate on Islam? I'm sure intelligence is not lacking amongst certain figures on the Islam forum...they just leave it at home or somewhere else. They don't bring it with them here

DeVore

I have never heard of the term "Queer Theory" and it made me reach for the ban stick too though I gave the benefit of the doubt. The whole tone of even THIS thread makes me think the question wasnt out of interest in generating light but rather heat. There is a place for heated debate, its just not in their "home" forum, just as other topics would be off topic in the christianity forum.

What exactly IS queer theory? Is this really an accepted term? (genuine question.../me goes to wikipedia....)

DeV.

WhiteWashMan

humanji wrote:

Looking to get a ban are we?

good job we arent posting the islam forum.

it would be a ban and 40 lashes!

Boston

DeVore wrote:

What exactly IS queer theory? Is this really an accepted term? (genuine question.../me goes to wikipedia....)

DeV.

It's a real term. UCD offer seminars in it. see here used to be able to a course in it from what I recall. May have been droped as the lecturer of that coruse is now at trinity doing a phd.

Blowfish

Boston wrote:

InFront: I can see how a rational person would view the topics raised as an attack... really I can.

I think it was possibly due to the equating of islam and lesbians, which are mutually exclusive.

Filan

Yes there is a section of the women's studies department at u.c.d. which focuses on "Queer Theory" . Refers to Sexuality and Gender lack of synchrony. Michael O' Rourke lecturers in it

r3nu4l

Filan wrote:

...Muslims view questioning as a threat and Questions are rarely answered in the Islam forum.

Well, I've worked with a number of Muslims in Ireland and they were always happy to answer questions that I asked. I have also asked questions about Islam in the Islam forum and the guys there often post quite detailed answers and will admit when they are unsure of certain aspects of what they are saying.

The questions I've asked have been about fairly 'safe topics' I suppose but even when I question certain answers I'm given the guys respond well.

I think that the tone of a post is important in the Islam forum. Barging in asking 'Why do Muslim women hide their sneaky faces behind veils?' is most likely going to result in a ban while 'Why do Muslim women wear veils?' will get an answer.

DeVore

Filan, you can certainly have an intelligent debate on a forum like Humanities. The Islam forum isnt here to defend the religion from every person who wants to come in and have their questions answered. They have a right to a life without persecution too you know.

If you want to argue about modern politics, feminism in Islam or other contentious issues, please take it to somewhere less specific like Humanities. If, however, that isnt IN THEIR FACE enough for someone, then they probably arent long for Boards anyway.

DeV.

Amz

Women in Switzerland were denied the right to vote until the early 1970s ...

Boston

r3nu4lare questions on islamic culture regularly answered on the forum. If so, then regardless of the orginal intentions for the forum, it's now a place to ask those sort of questions, and its perfectly understandable that people would.

Nevyn

Boston wrote:

He wasn't banned for being off-topic, he was banned for being a troll. Why delete rather then move the thread. why not just say The forum is about "the religion and spirtuality of islam and not the culture"? The guy didn't do anything wrong bar, as you suggest, post the topic in the wrong forum, happens all the time on boards, few moderators ban for it.

I don't think personally it warrented a ban but if you read the thread for context you can see that they mods warned repeatily about the thread being dragged off topic.

The christainity forum has had simular issues with non religous matters in connection to various churches being brought up.

It can be hard to seperate religion from culture and this does get tricky with Islam.

If metrovelvet had of started a seperate thread on this issue I doubt she would have been banned. Mostly likely the thread would have been locked or moved.

Hobbes

I banned him. The thread was already degenerating. The thread was about the Hajib and about halfway through people thought to start discussing the killing of homosexuals and other crap. So everyone got warned to stay on topic more then once.

After that, kmick felt the need to keep discussing the forum moderation rather then the topic and got temp banned for it.

Metro's comment clearly looked like they were taking the p!ss. Mainly because they were equating Feminists to Lesbians (ignoring the fact that Islam and homosexuality don't mix).

As for Filan, he's a different story and has only been warned. He has posted (his first) about the rights of women in Islam. He got loads of answers and discussion on various things but never responded to anything on that thread. Instead some days later opened up another exact same thread (which you can get banned for). I had locked his thread and pointed him to the thread in question where he should continue the conversation (his original thread).

After that he felt the need to start posting about how Muslims are trying to silence him and other crap. Only reason I haven't banned him yet is I believe hes a newbie.

And for other people who are in that thread. There is no problem with say discussing Islam in relation to homosexuality but start a new thread on it, it had nothing to do with Hajib directly. Metro should know better considering they have been banned before (without a warning) for breaking Rule 1.

Hobbes

Boston wrote:

And why would I be banned.

You wouldn't. We have a general rule of what goes on outside the forum doesn't reflect inside the forum.

So those with a beef with Islam can do so on other forums and as long as they can follow the rules in that forum are more then welcome to ask questions, as long they know that at the end of the day even if they don't like the answer they have to leave it at that.

Boston

Thaedydal wrote:

I don't think personally it warrented a ban but if you read the thread for context you can see that they mods warned repeatily about the thread being dragged off topic.

The christainity forum has had simular issues with non religous matters in connection to various churches being brought up.

It can be hard to seperate religion from culture and this does get tricky with Islam.

If metrovelvet had of started a seperate thread on this issue I doubt she would have been banned. Mostly likely the thread would have been locked or moved.

If Hobbes genuinely believes she was a troll, then theres no reason to believe she wouldn't have been banned regardless of whether or not she posted in a new thread or an existing one. I personally would like to read the post in question, and see why hobbes came to such a wrong conclusion.

Amz

Amz wrote:

Women in Switzerland were denied the right to vote until the early 1970s ...

I can top that!Did you know that your eyes are the same size now as they were when you were a baby but your ears and nose never stop growing?:rolleyes:

Amz

Well it was more something for the people who consider all Islamic states etc. to be very anti-women to think about.

Hobbes

Boston wrote:

I personally would like to read the post in question, and see why hobbes came to such a wrong conclusion.

Then read the thread. Dinobot had responded to the post while I was deleting it. I only left the response to point out where metro could be taking off topic for the thread and that he got a valid answer.

DeVore

Perhaps someone can answer this question for me. Has any practising Islamist been banned from the forum or is it just people who had "questions" they felt they were entitled to an answer for?

DeV.

DeVore

Boston, it may well have been bad timing in the sense that there had been a few warnings in the thread before. I know there are posts I would ban people for which if they were posted word for word at another time or place I wouldnt bat an eyelid at. If I've shouted at everyone who is having a row to pipe down and one guy cant let it go and jumps up and say "so what about the queers? huh?!"... he's the guy I'm going to shoot and then say "any other questions?".

DeV.

Boston

Hobbes wrote:

Metro's comment clearly looked like they were taking the p!ss. Mainly because they were equating Feminists to Lesbians (ignoring the fact that Islam and homosexuality don't mix).

Kinda tenuous conclusion to come to, but regardless, you're saying the ban was due to being off-topic. Grand.

Filan

Amz that is exactly what I mean by not answering the question..which is so often the case on the Islam forum...we are not talking about Switzerland...we are talking or at least were about Islam...diverting attention..distorting the original point...and 1970 was a long time ago...this isn't about Switzerland in 1970

Perhaps a little off the point but my experience of interactions with Muslims in Ireland has been overwhelmingly negative...not completely I stress but on the great majority of occasions. At work last year a Muslim colleague told me that I should not be eating bacon...because their religion did not allow it...when I asked why, his response was "it's full of fat...so ...so bad..." Is fat not conatined in every meat?. In the same workplace a Muslim stated that a woman criticised him for staring at her...he said that he then told her that it was her fault for exposing her face..."A woman is for her husband only"...when I asked him why he panted, huffed and puffed before eventually stating " I am not a priest!"...he couldn't answer.

Muslims were also responsible for attacks on members of Limericks gay community.

I know that there is good and bad in every community...I too am very far from perfect....but I do question whether the Islamic culture is compatible with the admittedlyimperfect values we hold dear here

Sangre

amz wrote:

Well it was more something for the people who consider all Islamic states etc. to be very anti-women to think about.

So are you saying we should let them be 'anti-women' if they, in fact, are? Spain used to be dictatorship up until the yadda yadda, guess the west shouldn't be anti-facist either? Whatever, so off topic.

Tbh, now I can see why Hobbes banned him, it wasn't the content of the post but the fact it was way off topic

Islam forum posts always set off my 'feedback bells'. I don't like the style that its modded in, same with Paranormal. A kind of 'you can read what we think but you can't post what you think'. Tbh, I think that's better suited to a private forum.

Filan

Filan wrote:

Amz that is exactly what I mean by not answering the question..which is so often the case on the Islam forum...we are not talking about Switzerland...we are talking or at least were about Islam...diverting attention..distorting the original point...and 1970 was a long time ago...this isn't about Switzerland in 1970

Perhaps a little off the point but my experience of interactions with Muslims in Ireland has been overwhelmingly negative...not completely I stress but on the great majority of occasions. At work last year a Muslim colleague told me that I should not be eating bacon...because their religion did not allow it...when I asked why, his response was "it's full of fat...so ...so bad..." Is fat not conatined in every meat?. In the same workplace a Muslim stated that a woman criticised him for staring at her...he said that he then told her that it was her fault for exposing her face..."A woman is for her husband only"...when I asked him why he panted, huffed and puffed before eventually stating " I am not a priest!"...he couldn't answer.

Muslims were also responsible for attacks on members of Limericks gay community.

I know that there is good and bad in every community...I too am very far from perfect....but I do question whether the Islamic culture is compatible with the admittedlyimperfect values we hold dear here

To be fair.This is not the forum to be discussing this.