The Last word Today FM supplement debate

Transform

Just finished a pre-recorded interview for the last word this evening.

It concerns taking supplements at a young age and i hope i provided a balanced opinion. The other listener tended to focus on no explode and its problems.

Listen in if you can.

c - 13

Do you know what time slot your getting on the show transform ? Want to try catch this.

yomchi

sounds good. I'll stick it on now

Transform

No idea what time its on but they may mention it during the show today as to what time - will be available to down load after the show i would imagine

Dragan

Well at least the got a person on who knows what they are talking about.

Fair play Dom, i'm sure you put out the best possible advice for people!!!

For my view, people should be less concerned about there kids taking supplements and more about giving them the money to buy such things!

Ensure your kids have a good diet and support there sporting and training efforts! Supplements can come later.

yomchi

absolutely D, I've been training since I was 10 and didn't know what a supplement was up to a few years back and I did alright for meself through them years!

hunnymonster

It's on now

yomchi

dont say i missed it, they're talking with Gay Byrne at the mo

PJG

Hi Lads, if anyone caught the show what problems were reported about explode?

g'em

PJG wrote:

Hi Lads, if anyone caught the show what problems were reported about explode?

and was it Nutrition X x-plode or BSN no-explode? two quite different products for a variety of reasons

LegacyUser

is there that much a difference g'em?

I thought xplode was the same pretty much except for the brand name and less sugar or artificial flavourings???

hunnymonster

It didn't really even get into specifics but what I took from it was

Anita (???) - Kids shouldn't take any suppliements because everything is "bad"
Transform - It depends on the supplement. Ideally get everything from real food but things like whey proteins will help recover from hard work more quickly

repeat. Interviewer wasn't really listening to answers but just seemed interested in starting a fight.

g'em

cheesedude wrote:

is there that much a difference g'em?

I thought xplode was the same pretty much except for the brand name and less sugar or artificial flavourings???

sorry, they are essentially the same thing but the differences are relatively important. BSN NO has very high levels of B vitamins in it, way above and beyond the RDA actually at about 2000% for B12 (personally I don't see anything majorly wrong with that, but the IMB has issues with it) whereas the Nutrition X x-plode has arginine in it to do the same thing (afaik, I can be corrected on that). BSN tends to be considerably more expensive and tbh I'm really not sure what half the ingredients that are in it are for?!!? For example:

(NO-Xplode Contains a patent pending nutrient suspension matrix & Efforsorb Delivery System)

NO Meta-Fusion (patent pending)
(L-arginine AKG, Citral-M (citrulline malate), L-citrulline AKG, L-histidine AKG, RC-NOS (rutacarpine 95%), gynostemma pentaphyllum (95% gypenosides), NAD (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide)

Muscle Volumizing Creatine Matrix (patent pending) 2CM (dicreatine malate), Betapure (trimethylglycine), Glycovo (glycocyamine), GuaniPro (guanidino proplonic acid), Cinnulin PF (aqueous cinnamon extract), keto-isocaproate potassium

Ener-Tropic Xplosion (patent pending)
L-tyrosine, taurine, Endurlac (glucuronolactone), l-tyrosine AKG, methylxanthines (caffeine), MCT's (medium chain triglycerides), vinpocetine 99%, vincamine 99%, vinburnine 99%

Phospho-Electrolyte Replacer
Calcium phosphate, magnesium oxide, potassium phosphate, sodium phosphate

Glycerol Hydrating Polymers
Potassium glycerophosphate, magnesium glycerophosphate, glycerola stearate

Other Ingredients: Maltodextrine, citric acid, sodium bicarbonate, lemon juice powder, malic acid, potassium citrate, natural and artificial flavors, aspartame, acesulfame potassium, FD&C Red 40, FD&C Blue 1.

huh?!?! BSN claim lots of the ingredients are unique and never heard of before - well, uh.. why?? And with all those "patents pending" I'm a little dubious about what they can do. Loads of people love it, so maybe it is a brill product, but I personally prefer the Nutrition X one - I know what everything in it is and if I don't like it I can go directly to the manufacturers to complain

g'em

hunnymonster wrote:

It didn't really even get into specifics but what I took from it was

Anita (???) - Kids shouldn't take any suppliements because everything is "bad"
Transform - It depends on the supplement. Ideally get everything from real food but things like whey proteins will help recover from hard work more quickly

repeat. Interviewer wasn't really listening to answers but just seemed interested in starting a fight.

Nice one Transform. A balanced, intelligent view of supplements, can't ask for more than that. It'll more than likely fall on deaf ears of course, but kudos for getting the message out loud and clear.

Transform

It should be available on a pod cast

Said some things i now would have said better but the lady was being totally sensationalist e.g. "everyone is taking no-explode and teams are getting an unfair advantage"

Also i was trying to say that supplement suppliers should have more responsibility when advising on products i.e. a 16 year old kid does not need no-explode when he barely gets his basics right.

finally i will get a mention in the metro section of evening herald friday (the personal diary) also featured in social/personal wedding issue this month.

Right enough blowing my own trumpet and gotta go back to check up on clients

iregk

I had a listen in today and its a shame it was pre recorded Transform as I felt it could have been much more of an debate and I really would have went after her more. I agree totally with you, unless you have your base diet correct no amount of add ons will do squat for you. Your one was a pure RTE style sensationalist. This quote made me alsmot crash my car!

Talking about bsn no-explode: "this is a creatine based product but where it differs from normal creatine which i have no problem with is that it has a mental stimulant. This stimulates the mind and gives a false sense of performance and makes you train harder and longer. Its the same effect that mind alter drugs give you and is really a gateway to harder drugs such as canabis and can lead to usage of speed and heroin"

How in the name of god she managed to link speed & heroin to creatine I will never know. Later she went on to contradict herself and said that all school rugby teams should be drug tested for creatine after games!!! She was talking absolute nonsense from the off and showed a clear ignorance to all things nutrition based. The fact that she said: "im reading on a website what this does" basically showed a total lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

Oh and apparently creatine causes your heart to swell with the risk of it exploding.

c - 13

Transform wrote:

It should be available on a pod cast

Said some things i now would have said better but the lady was being totally sensationalist e.g. "everyone is taking no-explode and teams are getting an unfair advantage"

Also i was trying to say that supplement suppliers should have more responsibility when advising on products i.e. a 16 year old kid does not need no-explode when he barely gets his basics right.

finally i will get a mention in the metro section of evening herald friday (the personal diary) also featured in social/personal wedding issue this month.

Right enough blowing my own trumpet and gotta go back to check up on clients

Firstly fair play Transform for keeping your head and having your facts laid out today, you said a great piece.

However I feel based on the texts that came in after the interview was played that your words were probably wasted on deaf ears. As you said yourself she was going for sensationalism and that is what the public wants to hear, not the facts.

How did you manage not to correct him all the times he got your surname wrong though ? He must have pronounced it about 5 different ways.

Kinetic^

Link for the podcast http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2132007-17.wmv

Posting as I listen here

Oh noes..........going to the gym and trying to look good :rolleyes:

ROFL........cannibas and creatine.

YEY, here's Dom!!

Dom PWNED her good!!

Respect for trying to push the basics too.

tba

get em while they are hot

http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/lastword.html

//edit GODDAMN YOU KENNY!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

tribulus

lol, how dare rugby teams try to have heavier packs than their opponents :rolleyes:

Very level headed Transform, loved the bit where you corrected her on how creatine works and her reply is " um...buh...suh..meh, there's websites that say"

What a muppet she was.

iregk

dave, some of the texts that came in afterwards were from a rugby coach of 20 odd years saying he has never in his lifetime come across anyone who has ever used creatine and he didn't condone anyone that did.

It is though according to your one a form of cheating trying to gain a weight advantage in the pack!!! The shame of it.

Dragan

That girl wrote a book about being inside the mind of an Irish Teenager???

Get real. She's clueless.

Dom, fair play for keeping your patience! She sounds like a million other people who with have an inch of information is absolutely sure that she is write.

"It's a mind stimulant....." when asked what she meant "It's like speed."

Oh Lord.

kwalsh000

Fiar play to you putting up with her!

Correct me if im wrong..but doesnt the likes of lucozade say body and mind stimulant etc. God shes annoying! Good to have someone like yourself Transform talking some sense on one of these programs

Sleepy

Caught about half of the piece yesterday evening and even as a n00b to the area of supplements I could see how much sh1te yer wan was talking. Clearly unable to seperate one supplement from another and totally lacking on the facts. Fair play Transform you were articulate and informative, unfortunately from the texts being read out at least, it seemed like the public were more prepared to accept sensationalist ranting than reasoned argument. But hell, this is Ireland, I'm kinda used to that at this stage!

tba

Well if "kids" are using Creatine and are not exercising right in the belief that it will bulk them up then it is a problem.

BigDragon

What a stupid women. Sensationalism sells. Thank god she didn't have a book to sell :rolleyes:

Well done Transform, you def came across as an intelligent professional.

homerjk

Shes a complete joke. You performed very well.

"well it says that on the web page", Jesus if you're using a web page as gospel then you definitely haven't a clue!

Dragan

tba wrote:

Well if "kids" are using Creatine and are not exercising right in the belief that it will bulk them up then it is a problem.

Indeed it is. In fact it's one the multitude of things that kids seem to believe that is not true.

Out of all of them I would put improper use of creatine at the bottom of the list of things to be worried about, to be honest.

rubadub

Dragan wrote:

Out of all of them I would put improper use of creatine at the bottom of the list of things to be worried about, to be honest.

Yep, I would sooner find my 14 year old taking creatine under the assumption it will make him "big and attractive", than find him smoking thinking it will make him "cool and attractive".

The whole gateway bull**** too. All she mentioned was illegal drugs. Saying creatine will lead to harder drugs, probably inferring illegal steroids. I have no doubt many steroid users started on legal creatine, just like many heroin addicts started on legal caffeine.
She never mentioned caffeine at all, thats because all the mammys at home use that particular drug so would laugh at her.

Transform- the only things I would have liked to have heard was to tell people where these are derived or where they are also found, to dismiss her arguments/suggestions. i.e. creatine is found in steak, this might cause a postive reading if kids were tested for creatine use. Or that whey protein is a dairy product and could be compared to skimmed milk powder, also high in protein yet low in fat. That people use these as low fat or cheaper alternatives.

People hear supplements and think "drugs" especially when some idiot like her compares them to illegal drugs, then mammy gets all upset, listening to these programs while drinking her coffee, smoking her fags, and having her nightcap, all to ease her troubled mind about her son abusing "real" drugs :rolleyes:

homerjk wrote:

"well it says that on the web page", Jesus if you're using a web page as gospel then you definitely haven't a clue!

Yep, a webpage is like a toilet wall, anybody can write whatever they want- then fools like her think "if its written down it must be true"

KC81

I dont think she was saying no xplode was like cannabis or heroin. thought what she was trying to say was that no explode could be seen as a spiral to illegal drugs such as steroids or hgh. I'm not saying i agree with her.

I think she was trying to say that allowing teenagers to take these supplements without proper guidance and supplementation could lead them to being driven down a path where they're gonna be taking steroids. (through the ethos that they can't do it on their own and they need enhancers to stay pace with their peers) but she seems to be suggesting that these "kids" are buying these supplements off people who would also be selling steroids etc. Wouldnt really know if thats true.
I think its a pity they didnt have someone on in her place that knew what they were talking about. But then no1 who is working for the rugby schools is gonna say anything bad about them. Have seen and heard a few mutters about what way rugby schools are going. Again no concrete facts as to what is going on.. Its definitly the responsibilities of the schools involved to get proper nutritionists in to educate their players. but she was acting like it was a wide spread crisis.
Same goes for over exercising.. it does happen but very rarely, knew girl who fecked up her legs from training too much. was very sad. two operations later she was still in pain from just walking..Education is the only answer.
Transform maybe you should offer your services to these schools....

oh and i think toxicity of vitamin b6 can cause symptoms such as bloating, fatigue + irritability, depression, numbness (because of nerve damage) Its stored in the muscles so dont really need to constantly take it in.

g'em

KC81 wrote:

oh and i think toxicity of vitamin b6 can cause symptoms such as bloating, fatigue + irritability, depression, numbness (because of nerve damage) Its stored in the muscles so dont really need to constantly take it in.

If anything Vitamin B6 (pyroxidine) is used to treat bloating in arthritic patients, and it's a water-soluble vitamin so it gets pi**ed out in the urine. There are tentative links at best between Vit B6 megadoses and nerve damage, but the keyword there is 'megadose'. You would literally need to be swallowing bucketloads of any of the B vit family to cause damage. Even the 2000% RDA of Vit B12 in NO Explode is still under the radar.

KC81

g'em wrote:

If anything Vitamin B6 (pyroxidine) is used to treat bloating in arthritic patients, and it's a water-soluble vitamin so it gets pi**ed out in the urine. There are tentative links at best between Vit B6 megadoses and nerve damage, but the keyword there is 'megadose'. You would literally need to be swallowing bucketloads of any of the B vit family to cause damage. Even the 2000% RDA of Vit B12 in NO Explode is still under the radar.

ok well my dietetics notes say we run out of water vits quickly because as u say piss out in urine but that vitamin b6 is stored in the body to certain extent as its a component of membranes. and that the upper maximum limit for supplements is 100mg for adults. and sensory neuropathy damage has been shown at 500mg a day.
n its only given to rheumatoid arthritis patients. my mother has osteoarthritis and has been told not to take it as a supplement. Its widely available in most people's diet in sufficient amounts.
but just noticed its b 12 thats in the no explode so well its all irrelevant really.

g'em

KC81 wrote:

ok well my dietetics notes say we run out of water vits quickly because as u say piss out in urine but that vitamin b6 is stored in the body to certain extent as its a component of membranes. and that the upper maximum limit for supplements is 100mg for adults. and sensory neuropathy damage has been shown at 500mg a day.
n its only given to rheumatoid arthritis patients. my mother has osteoarthritis and has been told not to take it as a supplement. Its widely available in most people's diet in sufficient amounts.
but just noticed its b 12 thats in the no explode so well its all irrelevant really.

Do your notes go into any more details about how the B6 is stored in your cell membranes because that's a new one to me. B6 is a co-enzyme, it's used by our bodies to aid metabolic enzymes to break down amino acids. Deamination, transamination, and decarboxylation of amino acids are required for synthesis, oxidation, and degradation of critical amino acid derived molecules that are used in hematological, neurological, humoral, and inflammatory processes. B6 (pyridoxine or PN) gets converted into one of anumber of compounds: pyridoxine 5'-phosphate (PNP), pyridoxal (PL), pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), pyridoxamine (PM), pyridoxamine 5'-phosphate (PMP), and 4-pyridoxic acid (PA). We take in PN as a vitamin supplement, PLP is the metabolicaclly active form and PA is the excretory product.

NO-Explode contains:
Vitmain B6 (pyridoxine) - 25mg
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) - 400mg
Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) - 120mg

The problem with all of the B vitamin complex [and it *is* a complex, it includes B1 (thiamin), B2 (riboflavin), B3 (niacin and niacinamide), B6 (pyridoxine), B12 (cobalamin), folic acid, pantothenic acid, biotin, choline, inositol, and PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid] is that we're not 100% sure of what the correct dosing levels are but generally speaking, because it's a water-soluble vitamin overdosing has to be chronic and the effects of megadosing can be reversed by ceasing supplementation.

But you're right, the the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has established an upper tolerable intake level for vitamin B6 of 100 mg per day for all adults and sensory neurpathy will occur at levels exceeding 500mg*, both of which the NO-explode falls well in the range of.


* Institute of Medicine. Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. National Academy Press. Washington, DC, 1998.

because_I_can

this whole thing is ridiculous. you cant have people on a serious talk show when they know absolutely nothing about their subject.
This woman knew jack about diet, nutrition, how the body works etc. But she was well able to say what people wanted to hear and that is that supplements are the devil. That seems to be all that counts

rubadub

KC81 wrote:

I dont think she was saying no xplode was like cannabis or heroin. thought what she was trying to say was that no explode could be seen as a spiral to illegal drugs such as steroids or hgh. I'm not saying i agree with her.

My problem was the scaremongering tatics set to upset all the mammies that she is trying to get to buy her book.

The whole gateway theory is a misnomer, even the gardai never mention it anymore when reffering to cannabis since is makes them look ignorant and discredits any legitimate concerns about "hard" drugs. She mention cannabis and heroin, both illegal. Yet talked of creatine leading to harder stuff (I presumed this inferred illegal steroids). Putting it in the same boat as cannabis (i.e. subtly inferring it should also be illegal just because it is a "gateway").

The gateway drug theory holds no water. They say most heroin users started on cannabis so it was the gateway. Well far more heroin users started out on legal caffeine as their first mind altering drug, then tobacco or alcohol, then cannabis.

If she had said caffeine is a gateway to heroin, and creatine is a gateway to steroids, I would have been happy, since people would have realised what a ridiculous statement it is.

The only way cannabis and heroin are linked is through the supply chain, because of legal status. If creatine is made illegal you will have kids buying from dealers since they still know it is OK. But just like with cannabis, they will end up getting impure/cut/diluted crap from dealers. Also they will have easier access to steroids which these "supplement dealers" will also be likely to supply.

KC81

i agree it probably was scaremongering.
do think cannabis can lead onto heroin.. BUT only because people who take cannabis may be unwilling to do what society tells them, may be after the buzz , may not know the health implications etc, and the dealer who is selling them cannabis may sell them other drugs (while not neccessarily telling them its heroin ). If u are willing to forgoe the detrimental effects of one drug u may deem it acceptable to 'try' other things.
Its not that they're physically prone to trying heavier drugs once they've tried cannabis just that they may be more likely to be exposed to it.
So if these young impressionable people are turning to supplements too early, without proper knowledge or guidance they may be more likely to turn to other things such as steroids because they percieve that they cannot keep up with others whose bodies are maturing faster or just more predisposed to that sport.
but of course it could go the other way: if they did see an improvement it could stimulate their interest in nutrition and get them reading up on it themselves and get them improving their natural diet which would be best thing in the end really.

oh and gem dont really have much more in my notes about the b6 being in membranes but i guess it makes sense why we dont need to take alot of it in the diet if we dont excrete it as rapidly as other b -vitamins.. it could be to do with its use as an enzyme involved in synthesis of new cells. (guess- not great on biochemistry) and seems in tune with its lower content in No explode.

HammerHeadGym

God, I just listened to that interview now. Holy **** what an idiot. I wouldn't have had the patience to put up with her ignorance. How many school kids can afford a regular supply of no explode? FFS. And random drug testing after school boy rugby matches. What a fool. Still an intelligent conversation wouldn't sell as much copy would it?

Fair play to you transform, very level headed, concise information.

HammerHeadGym

KC81 wrote:

...do think cannabis can lead onto heroin...

I think the problem is a lack of education. When someone is told that drugs are bad. All drugs. Regardless of the source or effects. Then a kid takes a puff at a party and says, "hey, this isn't so bad. I wonder if they lied about Heroin too?"

SprostonGreen

There is a program on tonight at 9pm, BBC Three, its called Babyfaced Bodybuilders, supposedly about teenagers "obsession" with bodybuilding.