UPC doesn't want RTÉ to carry commercial DTT channels

byte

From www.broadbandtvnews.com

Liberty Global has approached the Irish government to seek assurances that RTE will not be allowed to carry commercial digital television services as part of the analogue switch off process. Liberty, which as UPC Ireland is the country’s principal cable operator, says that it will level a complaint with the European Commission should the public broadcaster offer commercial carriage.

Liberty says that the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill, currently before the Irish parliament, creates “ambiguity” about RTE’s position. UPC Ireland chairman Shane O’Neill says that RTE NL, which runs RTE’s transmission services, should be restricted to public service broadcasting and anything further would distort the market.

Full story here

JHMEG

Which seems fair enough... why should there be commercial channels on the state-owned DTT network.

<wrong thread>

Foggy43

So who will set up another DTT Transmisson network to carry comercial TV channels? I presumed existing RTE NL sites will be used to transmit any DTT network. Maybe use the Chorus sites but I do not know where they are, except one, or how many.

Ok! RTE NL runs the network. Do they actually own the transmitter sites or are they state owned? Do RTE NL look after relays located on mobile phone masts?

watty

There is no reason why UPC should have a duopoly with Sky.

At the minute RTE own the sites (or most of them) and own RTENL.

I agree that RTE should not run the DAB or DTT network. It is a conflict of interest.

SOMEONE (even state) should run them and offer what the Public wants. I.E> all BBC & RTE radio on DAB and ALL Irish & UK TV on DTT, PLUS other conmmercial/Pay TV channels on both.

murphaph

Is it likely that BBC etc. will be carried on the irish DTT system?

fta keith

UPC's complaints are a waste of time as the 4 Irish Terrestrial tv channels are the only decent channels that is worth watching on the Irish Dtt pilot project apart from Sky Sports 1

Channel 6 on par with TV3 apart from a few bad us dramas shows repeats of programmes which were first shown on the irish/ UK Terrestrail tv channels years ago, Someone taped Heroes for me on channel 6, not very good for the first 4 parts

UK history just shows documentaries which were on bbctv months before, Exteme sports has no interest for me and also for the vast majority of Irish tv viewers

Finally it is great to have the 4 Irish tv channels fta on the Irish Dtt pilot project alongside all the bbc/itv/film4 and many decent fta digital tv channels on digital satellite which is about 35 digital tv channels with 4 on Irish Dtt pilot project and approx. 31 on digital satellite

Mossy Monk

fta keith wrote:

Someone taped Heroes for me on channel 6, not very good for the first 4 parts

which doesnt make it a bad show. anyone i know who has seen it thinks it is fantastic

icdg

The problem being that if no extra channels are offered, as UPC are proposing, the terrestrial die-hards will (quite rightly) say "whats the point". A sharper picture and an EPG alone will not make people turn over to digital, and digital switch-over will not happen. An incentive ie provision of extra channels is whats needed. UPC are of course protecting their own customer base and profit margin here. A FTA service along the lines of Freeview might take customers, particularly those who are still only taking NTL analogue at the moment.

I agree that RTÉ NL should be a separate company. Getting the unions to agree to same might be tricky. It took five years to get staff to transfer from ESB National Grid to Eirgrid without a single physical asset being transfered and now the ESB unions are kicking up a fuss over proposed transfer of assets. RTÉ will most likely be the same...

lucernarian

If there is to be no commercial channels broadcast on RTÉ NL, then there is little point to digital switchover. The analogue quality, especially for sporting events, is noticeable when compared to DTT. I was at a friend's house watching the rugby on 17/3 and RTÉ analogue was much better than RTÉ satellite which was also better again than BBC satellite.

But as for UPC's wishes, I'd tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. RTÉ should be entitled to make some money on a commercial venture as much as anyone else. A basic commercial service providing the basic english channels and some other miscellaneous channels ala UPC analogue, should not prove a significant challenge to RTÉ NL. I don't see the efficiencies to be gained in privatisation, but I think a separate state owned transmission network operator would be beneficial.

Also, any issue of commercial satellite connectivity can be handled directly between the company, e.g. sky, and the broadcasters themselves, it not being a matter of national interest/importance IMO.

However, the upcoming plans for some sort of free-to-air RTÉ service in the future can be handled by the spun-off company, as it would be a free and essential service to some irish people and those living abroad.

Tbh, I fail to see UPC's point of view of "distortion of the market". It's utterly hypocritical to argue that - when they have a monopoly in 99% of places in Ireland and many of their customers have no aerial for even RTÉ separately. terrestrial transmission is a natural monopoly in every sense. Mabye RTÉ itself could be privatised, but private companies should keep their hands off monopolies.

Solair

I'm unimpressed with what I'm seeing from UPC so far. Sharp practices : the surcharge for not paying by DD and the late fees...
Now they are trying to have their cable monopoly shored up by taking legal action against the state...

Why shouldn't RTE be allowed to operate a semi-commercial service in opposition to UPC and Sky?

The more the merrier!

JHMEG

The difference is that RTE receive substantial subsidies by way of the TV Licence, while UPC and Sky do not. As long as this is the case then UPC have a very valid argument.

DTT will eventually be the norm as more and more TVs ship with DVB tuners. No "incentives", in terms of commercial TV offerings will be required.

Solair

I think there's an argument for winding up MMDS and giving the MMDS operators (i.e. mostly UPC or is it all UPC now?) space on the DTT platform to operate the commercial aspect of it.

It would give DTT the commercial clout and a ready made subscriber base while elminiating many of the problems that MMDS has providing universal coverage.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the existing MMDS boxes, certainly the ex Chorus ones, can be used for DTT with a software update.

Also, let's not forget that UPC has had the benefit of an exclusive legally enforced cable and MMDS monopoly since the 1980s.

SPDUB

JHMEG wrote:

DTT will eventually be the norm as more and more TVs ship with DVB tuners. No "incentives", in terms of commercial TV offerings will be required.

There's plenty of TVs being bought wthout DVB tuners ths year and undoubtly also for at least the next 2 years that will work way beyond the proposed 2012 shutdown of analogue

So if you want DTT to be the norm by 2015 or even later have no incentives

There will need to be incentives to get people to move sooner than that and only having the 4 channels that you currently have on analogue isn't enough

maxg

Solair wrote:

I think there's an argument for winding up MMDS and giving the MMDS operators (i.e. mostly UPC or is it all UPC now?) space on the DTT platform to operate the commercial aspect of it.

It would give DTT the commercial clout and a ready made subscriber base while elminiating many of the problems that MMDS has providing universal coverage.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the existing MMDS boxes, certainly the ex Chorus ones, can be used for DTT with a software update.

Also, let's not forget that UPC has had the benefit of an exclusive legally enforced cable and MMDS monopoly since the 1980s.

The chorus mmds digital boxes are simple DVB-T boxes. There would be no update necessary.
The chorus mmds digital boxes would be ready for pay-tv via DTT.

watty

Solair wrote:

I think there's an argument for winding up MMDS and giving the MMDS operators (i.e. mostly UPC or is it all UPC now?) space on the DTT platform to operate the commercial aspect of it.

It would give DTT the commercial clout and a ready made subscriber base while elminiating many of the problems that MMDS has providing universal coverage.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the existing MMDS boxes, certainly the ex Chorus ones, can be used for DTT with a software update.

Also, let's not forget that UPC has had the benefit of an exclusive legally enforced cable and MMDS monopoly since the 1980s.

The MMDS alllows 120 ch MPEG2 or 240Chs MPEG4 or a mix of SD & HD MPEG4.

The DTT allows about 30 ch MPEG2 or 6 ch MPEG + 48 MPEG4 chs, not enough space for HD.

There is no way MMDS can be replaced by DTT. UPC will be phasing out the DVBt boxes and changing to Digital only DVB-c on MMDS as on NTL MMDS.

rogue-entity

Terrestrial television does not have to be a natural monopoly. UPC can screw themselves if they think they can block commercial PayTV being broadcast on the proposed Irish DTT network just because they want to protect their interests. While I agree with the UPC argument that RTE themselves directly operating a PayTV network and benifiting from it, is a conflict of interest, since they are also receiving funds from TV Licencing. I dont agree that UPC's protected Monopoly on the cable system offsets this in any way, since Cable companies are a natural monopoly, and people have the choice to switch to sattelite or terrestrial reception.

RTENL who I assume run the existing transmission network, would run any proposed DTT network as well, would probably allocate (by law) a mux for public broadcasting by RTE and TG4, but TV3 and any other companies that wish to use the network, would all have to compete for space, which would bring funds to the DTT Network owner, which should really be state owned.

UPC and Sky should be prevented from providing a service using any DTT network that is setup in Ireland for obvious reasons, but other then that, I see no reason why another company could not rent space on the DTT network and provide the same extra channels that UPC provide, e.g. pay channels like Sky One, FTA channels like BBC and ITV, which most likly wont be provided by the state broadcaster.

Solair

I suppose the response to that is to break the cable monopoly.

i.e. unbundle it.

There's no reason why UPC coudln't be forced to give say 50% of the spectrum on cable to another operator!

JHMEG

rogue-entity wrote:

I dont agree that UPC's protected Monopoly on the cable system offsets this in any way, since Cable companies are a natural monopoly, and people have the choice to switch to sattelite or terrestrial reception.

Anybody is free to compete with UPC. The old protections are gone, in that any company can now supply a cable service to anyone anywhere.

Since DTT is far reaching, going literally over the heads of UPC to everyone, it's valid that they object to a rival system funded by the tax payer. That's not a level playing field.

L1011

Similarly 'anyone' can compete with Eircom's local loop. However its not financially viable, which is why the network is opened up.

Most of UPCs actually valuable, viable cable network is ex-State anyway! Same situation as Eircom.

maxg

watty wrote:

The MMDS alllows 120 ch MPEG2 or 240Chs MPEG4 or a mix of SD & HD MPEG4.

The DTT allows about 30 ch MPEG2 or 6 ch MPEG + 48 MPEG4 chs, not enough space for HD.

There is no way MMDS can be replaced by DTT. UPC will be phasing out the DVBt boxes and changing to Digital only DVB-c on MMDS as on NTL MMDS.

Why should it be not possible to replace MMDS by DTT.
Modulation is modulation only the used frequency range is different.
If you want to offer the current chorus mmds digital channel via DTT you need 10 to 11 free frequencies with 8mhz distance in the VHF/UHF range. Thats all.

Zaphod

maxg wrote:

The chorus mmds digital boxes are simple DVB-T boxes. There would be no update necessary.
The chorus mmds digital boxes would be ready for pay-tv via DTT.

I was under the impression that the digital MMDS boxes were DVB-C?

JHMEG

MYOB wrote:

Most of UPCs actually valuable, viable cable network is ex-State anyway! Same situation as Eircom.

Most of it is new by now, in all the new housing estates etc, and a lot of the older stuff has been replced at alarming cost to ntl and now UPC.

Ironic isn't it that it was once owned by RTE and Eircom, who in turn were owned by us, the taxpayer (and we foolishly paid the govt for something which was already our's, and are STILL paying for it (€25 euro a month), but that's another story)...

Float RTE NL and let the Irish public buy it back off ourselves!:D

maxg

Zaphod wrote:

I was under the impression that the digital MMDS boxes were DVB-C?

NTL mmds is dvb-c. Chorus digital mmds is dvb-t.

Zaphod

Never knew that. So NTL use Pace DVB-C boxes and Chorus use Sagem DVB-T boxes?

Just a bit more digging on the net. Most posts seem to report the Sagem ITD 4000 as the Chorus box which is indeed a DVB-T box with a frequency range of 470 MHz to 860 MHz.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030628090305/http://www.sagem.com/en/produits-en/terminaux-num-en/tv-itd4000-en.htm


However an old post from 2002 seems to imply an operating frequency of 218MHz which would be more typical of DVB-C frequency range???

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:XKXlSNx48qsJ:www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-58603.html

maxg

A normal dvb-t box support the range around 80 to 860 mhz.
Only the outdated ONDigital boxes from the UK supporting only the UHF range.

5h4mr0(k

Does that mean that a TV with a DVB-T could tune in to the Chorus MMDS - provide that there's an MMDS aerial with power going to it? And not have to have the extra STB (and remotes etc.)
???

maxg

Pay-tv is scrambled.

Fingleberries

This is a very typical Irish situation:-

Company 1 (e.g. Eircom, CIE, NTL, VHI, ESB, Bord Gáis, etc.) "Oh, that's not fair. You're introducing competition and that will eat into our Monopoly"

Govt: "Yes, we're doing it in the name of competition (and not because Brussels wants us to)"

Company: "Oh, that's awful. Think of the job losses. How will we ever be able to make a profit ... sure aren't we struggling as it it?"

Govt: "Oh, that's terrible. What can we do? (we really don't want job losses near an election)"

Company: "Well, if you'll let us keep the majority of our monopoly and we just increase our prices, then we should be ok."

Govt: "Well that sounds fair to us. Sorry to bother you."


Consumer: "Hunh?????"

lawhec

maxg wrote:

A normal dvb-t box support the range around 80 to 860 mhz.
Only the outdated ONDigital boxes from the UK supporting only the UHF range.

Almost all of the DVB-T boxes sold in the UK are UHF tuner only. I've also yet to come across a DVB-T STB that tunes below VHF Band III, at least in Europe.

Mossy Monk

what relevance did all of that have to do with the thread?

Ulsterman 1690

Which seems fair enough... why should there be commercial channels on the state-owned DTT network.

Ummmm

TV3 is a commercial channel carried on a state-owned terrestrial network (some would even go so far as to say RTE1 and RTE2 are commercial channels carried on a state-owned terrestrial network but thats an argument for another thread)

Why should it make any difference whether the state-owned terrestrial network in question is analouge or digital ?

lucernarian

JHMEG wrote:

Anybody is free to compete with UPC. The old protections are gone, in that any company can now supply a cable service to anyone anywhere.

Since DTT is far reaching, going literally over the heads of UPC to everyone, it's valid that they object to a rival system funded by the tax payer. That's not a level playing field.

I respectfully disagree. It's not the state's job to line the pockets of a foreign multinational. The public's best interest would be served by a technical service whose motive is not one of profit. Good electronic engineering and quality of service are often incompatible with the profit motive.

If the provision of a basic tv service is of national interest, which I think it is, then a nationalised infrastructure company would be most suitable for this role. RTÉ only needs one channel for public broadcasting I feel, so let the state sell off network 2 if the govt. want to sell anything.

And please, don't say it's "free" for anyone to compete with UPC. There is a HUGE barrier to entry, namely the millions or even billions it would cost to duplicate UPC's network. Economically that's a characteristic of an ogliopoly/monopoly.

rogue-entity

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I respectfully disagree. It's not the state's job to line the pockets of a foreign multinational. The public's best interest would be served by a technical service whose motive is not one of profit. Good electronic engineering and quality of service are often incompatible with the profit motive.

If the provision of a basic tv service is of national interest, which I think it is, then a nationalised infrastructure company would be most suitable for this role. RTÉ only needs one channel for public broadcasting I feel, so let the state sell off network 2 if the govt. want to sell anything.

And please, don't say it's "free" for anyone to compete with UPC. There is a HUGE barrier to entry, namely the millions or even billions it would cost to duplicate UPC's network. Economically that's a characteristic of an ogliopoly/monopoly.

Agreed. The government shouldnt be protecting UPC and Sky's interests, they should be protecting the interests of the irish people.

JHMEG

I'm finding it hard to get information on this, but I've read stuff about the EU having problems with plans for commercial services on the state-owned DTT network in Germany.

But anyway.

It is arguably not the role of the state to "protect the interests of the Irish people" from Sky and UPC. People are free chose neither (like me).

It can also be counter productive. Imagine a scenario like this: If DTT commercial services (ie subscriber) services launched under the control and ownership of RTENL, then UPC & Sky get p!ssed off with dimishing customer numbers.

The reaction will be either:
a) To have DTT sub prices at the same level as UPC & Sky. How does this benefit anyone, as we will now have an oligopoly, all carrying more or less the same channels, for more or less the same price?
-or-
b) Sky and/or UPC decide not to service Ireland anymore (most likely Sky, as they've no triple-play or infrastructure). Back to a duopoly.

@To_be_confirmed: Anyone can compete with UPC, just like they can with eircom. True it's not feasible to be running cables into everyone's homes... but there are other ways. Necessity is the mother of invention, and we're getting there:
http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?id=1254

It's just not the state's job to do it.

EDIT: Afaik no-one is objecting to a UK Freeview type setup on DTT, where *all* channels are free. I would be in favour of such a setup.

Sponge Bob

UPC can lose all their MMDS frequency (100mhz) in 2009 if the 3G operators 'request' it . They have no real rights overthis spectrum after 2008 when it becomes 3g expansion spectrum. primarily.

page 34 of this 2004 doc see between 2500 and 2700

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0477.pdf

Curiously the DTT trial ends 31 Dec 2008 .

The misc interests of Dempsey and UPC and the 3G operators may result in UPC being 'forced' into a bod for the national DTT franchise if they wish to retain their MMDs userbase.

lucernarian

In reply to post #35, wireless is not the silver bullet to the existing monopolies. Digiweb can only realistically provide a half-assed service with the spectrum that they have, which also has to be shared with Internet and their phone service.

As for eircom, there are a wide range of situations which force people to have an eircom or reseller's line. Ironically owning sky multiroom is one of them. Necessity is the mother of invention, but we still have to mainly use petrol for our cars like we always did. And by god it is necessitous to reduce petrol demand for this country's sake.

I cannot seriously consider Sky pulling out of Ireland. There will always be money to be made from satellite broadcasting. If triple play is the issue, I would only look to the fibre providers or UPC and apart from a TINY minority, if it even exists, who have access to both. RTÉ would suffer from the same issue.

RTE or some other state body is in the perfect position to step into the shoes that the old analogue cable used to fill, except that it would be a nationwide service with a LOT of subscribers I'd imagine. It's a useful way to fund a rollout while minimising the risks of a profit-driven monopoly.
A private company can do this aswell, but I've yet to see a privately-owned monopoly which didn't charge artificially high prices. Regulation can't properly work as we see with eircom. The only way you can properly tell a company what to do is by owning it.

And so what if UPC gets pissed off? All that proves is that a commercial service on DTT was a good and popular idea. And I don't understand the "a" conclusion from this. What has DTT subs got to do with the point?

watty

Zaphod wrote:

Never knew that. So NTL use Pace DVB-C boxes and Chorus use Sagem DVB-T boxes?

Just a bit more digging on the net. Most posts seem to report the Sagem ITD 4000 as the Chorus box which is indeed a DVB-T box with a frequency range of 470 MHz to 860 MHz.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030628090305/http://www.sagem.com/en/produits-en/terminaux-num-en/tv-itd4000-en.htm


However an old post from 2002 seems to imply an operating frequency of 218MHz which would be more typical of DVB-C frequency range???

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:XKXlSNx48qsJ:www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-58603.html

The "IF" from the 2.5Ghz "LNB" is up to 418MHz.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote:

UPC can lose all their MMDS frequency (100mhz) in 2009 if the 3G operators 'request' it . They have no real rights overthis spectrum after 2008 when it becomes 3g expansion spectrum. primarily.

From ERO document IMT-2000/UMTS spectrum use in Europe (Dec 2005)

Section 3: Frequency Utilisation of the Frequency Band 2500-2690 MHz

Use of 2520 – 2670 MHz
Ireland
Fixed service (MMDS)
Licensed until 2015
Updated December 2005

Use of the bands 2500-2520 / 2670-2690 MHz
Ireland
Fixed service (MMDS)
Available for IMT-2000 by 1 January 2005
Updated December 2005

Also the European Unions RSC Consultation "Comments on the outcome of a Mandate to CEPT concerning channelling arrangements for IMT-2000 in the 2.6 GHz band", part of Irelands response was as follows

3. Any other points you find relevant.
The Commission will need to take into consideration the Member States who currently use this spectrum for the provision of other services.
In Ireland this band is used for the provision of MMDS services with operators licensed until 2014. The rural nature of the Irish population makes this MMDS service vital for the provision of television services in rural areas. It may prove difficult to move the MMDS operators to another part of the radio spectrum given the propagation characteristics and the lack of equipment availability in other candidate bands.
Member States should be given enough flexibility to accommodate existing services as well as providing sufficient spectrum for IMT-2000 on either a co-channel or adjacent channel sharing basis.

Sponge Bob

The ERO will take Irelands stated position into account but that does not mean that Ireland may unilaterally assign this spectrum for MMDS until 2015.

Approx 1/3 of the state is subject to a co-ordination plan with the UK as you can see from page 18 of this doc. The co-ordination zone is everywhere within 80km of the border.

However Comreg , under no pressure from ERO or anyone else unilaterally clipped the top and bottom ends of the MMDS bands out a few years back and assigned them for allocation to non (then) existent 3G operators partially by way of warning NTL and Chorus .

MMDS tends to be quite high power compared to a 3g base station.

3G expansion was a joke when Comreg reserved this spectrum for it ( there was no 3g) but with all you can eat HSDPA data packages coming out in 2006 it becomes a very live issue because the uptake has been pretty impressive SINCE the 3G operators stopped charging by the kilobyte . Further enhancements to 3G data speeds in 2009 ( HSUPA and HSPA ) prior to the next generation called LTE early in the next decade (which seems suspect to me as its not radio compatible as proposed) and the definite HSUPA and HSPA in 2009 will require allocation of spectrum in 20Mhz+ blocks given that they will be offering 7mbit packages over 3G .

We have 4 3g operators who will probably look for 4 x 20Mhz or 4 x 20Mhz+ between them to go live in 2009 so where will we get that one wonders , and they have no interest in MMDs but do in DVB-H ...just to muddy the whole issue a tad more ??

A further variable is that the WRC07 is imminent and may impose policy on ERO at variance with what ERO is minded to do . ERO will then impose this on Comreg.

A further variable again is that the widespread launch of HSDPA all you can eat packages during 2006 may even have been driven by those ERO/EU consultations referred to in the previous post. In other words the 3G operators had to demonstrate a requirement for expansion spectrum which they had not done in 2004 and 2005 when those EU and ERO consultations took place but to my mind the have done since.

Having unilaterally faced down the MMDS operators to remove some of their spectrum and then sit on it since 2004, unused but available for allocation , Comreg have the upper hand. Nevertheless they only grabbed two x 20Mhz blocks back then and technology has moved on , these were 2500-2520 / 2670-2690 total 40Mhz (I thought it was more, sorry)

Therefore the most intelligent distribution method for programs to current MMDS customers in the next decade would be over commercial DTT muxes or so it seems to me .

The big big game shaping up in Ireland now is whether UPC will be forced to attempt a national DTT rollout to co-incide with the end of the DTT trial in december 2008 and thereby admit they know they are losing the MMDS spectrum to 3G

Thoughts :D:D

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote:

The ERO will take Irelands stated position into account but that does not mean that Ireland may unilaterally assign this spectrum for MMDS until 2015.

I assume UPC would disagree as their licence was issued prior to any EU Decision been made and so have the right to use this spectrum until their licence expires or be compensated for loss of expected revenue, digital roll-out costs etc.

Therefore the most intelligent distribution method for programs to current MMDS customers in the next decade would be over commercial DTT muxes or so it seems to me .

The big big game shaping up in Ireland now is whether UPC will be forced to attempt a national DTT rollout to co-incide with the end of the DTT trial in december 2008 and thereby admit they know they are losing the MMDS spectrum to 3G

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006 is currently making its way through the Oireachtas, there is no provision for the current MMDS operator been forced, mandated, granted or transferred to any UHF multiplex.
The maximum number of multiplexes available to any commercial operator will be five out of six (Multiplex 1 (RTE) will carry the current National Services free-to-air, with the option of space on another multiplex), UPC currently use 10 or 11 frequencies for their service, but this is currently under review by ComReg (ComReg 03105) and will probably form part of ComRegs Spectrum Strategy Consultation in Q4.

Approx 1/3 of the state is subject to a co-ordination plan with the UK as you can see from page 18 of this doc. The co-ordination zone is everywhere within 80km of the border.

MMDS tends to be quite high power compared to a 3g base station.

Currently been looked at as part of Ofcoms Award of available spectrum: 2500-2690 MHz.

However Comreg , under no pressure from ERO or anyone else unilaterally clipped the top and bottom ends of the MMDS bands out a few years back and assigned them for allocation to non (then) existent 3G operators partially by way of warning NTL and Chorus.

In 1998 when this decision was made, these frequencies were allocated to Mobile Satellite Services according to S5.414 and S5.419 of the ITU Radio Regulations, they were later allocated to UMTS / IMT2000 (ECC DEC (05)05).

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote:

I assume UPC would disagree as their licence was issued prior to any EU Decision been made and so have the right to use this spectrum until their licence expires or be compensated for loss of expected revenue, digital roll-out costs etc.

True, I am not aware that they have any rights beyond 2008/2009 but am very open to correction on this point . I had assumed that they had they rights to the MMDS spectrum up to c .2009 latest and that thereafter it depended on international decisions
[edit]I now think its 2014 but Comreg could reduce UPC spectrum to 8x11mhz or 100mhz with guard bands from the current 170Mhz lbefore then [/ edit]

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006 is currently making its way through the Oireachtas, there is no provision for the current MMDS operator been forced, mandated, granted or transferred to any UHF multiplex.
The maximum number of multiplexes available to any commercial operator will be five out of six (Multiplex 1 (RTE) will carry the current National Services free-to-air, with the option of space on another multiplex), UPC currently use 10 or 11 frequencies for their service, but this is currently under review by ComReg (ComReg 03105) and will probably form part of ComRegs Spectrum Strategy Consultation in Q4.

Groan, not another Comreg consultation .
5 out of 6 multiplexes in the hands of anyone other than UPC would render MMDS instantly obsolete if deployed nationally whereas in the hands of UPC there could be an orderly transition of customers .

Currently been looked at as part of Ofcoms Award of available spectrum: 2500-2690 MHz.

I was aware of this. I would point out that Ofcom are also eyeing the most advantagous financial terms for the UK exchequer. If an award of spectrum for 3g mobile were better business than an award for Wimax instead then Ofcom would go with the most financially advantageous allocation.

Ofcom looked at this before less than 4 years ago when Wimax was nowhere , being a nascent 802.16 series of proposals with no big backers like Intel.

The comparison is instructive .

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/3g_2500_2690_consultation/

The EU RSG furthermore would probably take note of the EUs overall greater intellectual property within the 3g space over the 802.16xxx space in arriving at a preferred use for the band if it ever does come down on a side .

watty

The basic issue is though that UPC have 120 ch now on MMDS and can upgrade to 240. (Or a mix with HD) so can compete with Sky.

But on DTT even using MPEG4 they can only have about 40 channels, no HD. This is not possible to compete with Sky. They are not going to do this without some other very big stick and carrot.

Sponge Bob

but UPC were ordered to proceed on the assumption that from 2003/2004 they only really have 8 x 11mhz of spectrum till the end of their licence .

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg03105.pdf

The next watershed is 1/1/08 when the 3G operators can start to chaw away at the ( current 2520-2670mhz ) allocation on the basis of a "Demonstrable Need" . (mainly page 16 of that link onwards)

I would argue that 3G HSDPA takeup is just that "Demonstrable Need" and said "Demonstrable Need" was non existent in June 2006 .

From a request for mhz for 3G comes a pricing imperative . That pricing imperative could also lead to UPC, in a complex process, being given money to feck off elsewhere .

But none of this will be discussed before an election , Not with the ghost of Tom Gildea a lurking.

On a crude pro rata estimate vis a vis the UK auction estimates and the US FCC AWS auction last year the spectrum (uncluttered) is worth €50m - €100m which is a lot more than UPC wil pay for it between now and the end of the licence.

rogue-entity

@JHMEG (Post 35): I never said that RTENL themselves should be allowed to run a commercial service on a DTT network in Ireland, that would be a conflict of Interest for RTE. What I said was that with RTENL running the DTT network as a state body, they should not be prohibited from allowing a third party to operate a commercial PayTV service that could compete with UPC and Sky, say by providing the same basic channels they UPC provide in their basic digital service, with a lot of them free anyway (RTE, BBC etc).

UPC and Sky will not innovate or provide a good service unless they have the financial incentive to do so, and with a good strong DTT service here, that will hopefully give people on the fringes a cheaper alternative to UPC and Sky for the basic TV channels they want, such as UPCs analogue-only/basic digital customers.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote:

True, I am not aware that they have any rights beyond 2008/2009 but am very open to correction on this point .

From the MMDS Licence "5. This licence shall come into operation on the date specified in Part IV and shall, unless previously
surrendered by the licensee or unless or until it is revoked by the Director, and subject to any suspension thereof,
continue in force from the date specified in Part IV to the 19th day of April 2014."

byte

FTA Keith, if you want to copy and paste stories from another site, at least have the decency to link to the page you copied it from.

As you have failed to do so, your post has been deleted (not that it was relevant anyway).

You really do need to learn some "netiquette" and my patience is thin.

Solair

You could quite feasably have DTT for the free to air and the basic 40 odd channels (including some perhaps from UPC on a pay basis) then have a further enhanced package available using the MMDS spectrum.

i.e. if you want full-on "wireless cable" service, you could have an extra antennae fitted.

All you'd need is a DTT box with an ability to receive normal DTT frequencies and deal with an MMDS antenna operating at much higher frequencies.

I can't see it being THAT difficult and it would save wasting valuable radio bandwidth on a duplicated service.

I can't see why DTT and MMDS need to be mutually exclusive platforms, they're both really "DTT" MMDS just operates at far higher frequencies.

It's just like analogue TV on VHF and UHF..

MMDS is simply an even higher frequency band!

watty

yes but the issue is that after some date with demand for 4g or HSDPA etc the UPC would lose the MMDS. ON the RTE 6.1 news today.

Sponge Bob

What was on the news Watty? I did not see it .

There is no formal 4g frequency allocation or earmark , the furthest the standards planners have gone is to start to consider that 3G LTE (also called 3.9g and due by 2010-2012 onwards but which may possibly become a 4g standard instead) will require as much as 1Ghz of spectrum .

Wimax may get traction instead , who knows at this stage.

The pressure on the MMDS band for HSDPA uses (now) and HSUPA (2009) which between them become HSDA at that point is immediate , once the election is over.

watty

The only real here & now 4G (running on 450MHz in some countries nearly a year) was demoed as preview yesterday. Mentioned on 6.1 news. It's a pure IP network rather than a phone network that does data, so any "phones" would be SIP based. 870MHz. I believe a 2.1GHz version exists for test so a 2.5Ghz version would be possible. Any offer of spectrum on 2.5GHz would likely be auctioned on technology neutral basis for Mobile Internet as this is now trend of EU. The 900 MHZ GSM is likely to be "recycled" as 3G/HSDPA instead. WiMax Mobile if they got it working ever might be a 2.5GHZ contender.

HSDPA and HSUPA may go fast, but they are a poor experience for mobile internet/data compared with F-OFDM and possibly WiMax Mobile or LTE or Qualcomm UBMA (or whatever it's called).


A lot could change regarding MMDS usage. Also there is the strange decision to licence SCTV essentially as 11.7GHz MMDS operator.

Zaphod

watty wrote:

The "IF" from the 2.5Ghz "LNB" is up to 418MHz.

That fits in with what I've seen of MMDS downconverters. A typical Calamp unit has LO of 2278MHz, input 2.5-2.686GHz and RF out of 222-408MHz.

I guess it means the Sagem boxes supplied to Chorus have customised tuners to cover VHF.