[Sticky]How to start in Aviation...

nobby2k1

Hi,
I've had the sudden urge to learn how to fly...not sure if I wanna try airplanes or helicopters....I know it's quite expensive but was wondering what you should be expecting to pay for a lesson, how long the lessons last and how many hours flying do you need and if theres like um...written exams and stuff...
Sorry if they're basic questions, but I did have a look on some sites and couldnt find the answers...

ATB,
Nobby

Chopperdog

I am not an expert in this field.

I started my PPL (fixed wing) a few years back and presently have it on hold due to cash constraints.

You must complete a minimum of 45 hours flying time before you can sit your test.

For fixed wing tuition you can expect to pay anywhere from €150 to €200 per hour on a single engine aircraft.

Helicopter tuition is somewhere close to €400 or €500 an hour.

Hopefully someone will be along soon with more specific prices for you.

eirlink

Before you do anything, get a medical and eye test by one of the appointed doctors. the medical for ppl is quite thorough and you dont want to spend money on lessons and then fail the medical!

macshadow

www.trimflyingclub.com charge 110 euro p/h cessna 172m skyhawk.
You can take a trial flight where you take the controls for a few minutes
and ask all the questions you need answering.
The microlight route is the way to go IMO,some of them can cruise at 130 knots/150 miles p/h and are cheap enough to think of in the same way a car or motorbike.
If you do plan on doing your ppl it might be worth going to the uk where the hours required is 25 as opposed to 45 here.
You can operate one from the back of your house if you have you have enough room.
I don't have a ppl,but some day soon hopefully!
www.nmai.ie www.bmaa.org are good for info.

Owen

macshadow wrote:

If you do plan on doing your ppl it might be worth going to the uk where the hours required is 25 as opposed to 45 here.

The PPL requirement in the UK is also 45 hours. There is a very limited form of the PPL (The name escapes me) that you can do after 25 hours, but it won't give you any of the experience you'll need for real flying.

To echo other posters, get an introductory lesson to see if you like it, then do the Medical. For a PPL, you'll need a Class 2 Medical available from some specialised GPs, and various hospitals. Then at least you'll know you can get your various licenses without spending shedloads of money, only to be faced with a brick wall. After about 10 hours of instruction, covering straight and level flight, radio telephony, stalls, and altitude management, your instructor will tell you you're ready for your Solo. You apply to the Irish Aviation Authority, with your Medical, for a SPL License (Student Pilot License) with Solo Permit. Then, you'll do a circuit (Lap of the airfield) on your own. You continue to build hours, pass your theory tests, complete a 150 Mile Cross Country Solo taking in 3 airports, and after 45 hours you *should* be ready to sit your PPL. Some people take longer. I know of one man in Cork on over 100 hours, and still not even remotely capable to sit the test.

Here's the guide to getting a PPL from the Connaught Aero Club, well worth a read :
http://www.connaughtaeroclub.ie/ppl.htm

macshadow

My mistake ppl (aeroplane) 45 hours.
ppl(A) 25 hours. uk only.
ppl(A) is microlight.


Aaahem! microlight flying IS real flying and that 25 hours is enough to go buy a microlight and fly on your own although you would need to do a radio course to go cross country.

Owen

macshadow wrote:

My mistake ppl (aeroplane) 45 hours.
ppl(A) 25 hours. uk only.
ppl(A) is microlight.

Aaahem! microlight flying IS real flying and that 25 hours is enough to go buy a microlight and fly on your own although you would need to do a radio course to go cross country.

Exactly what I meant, sorry if I worded it to cause offense. You will need a course in RT (Radio Telephony) if you want to go cross-country with your Microlight - that's what I meant about needing the PPL for real flying experience. I hope I didn't upset anyone!

Victor

I get the impression that helicopters are substantially more difficult to learn to fly.

macshadow

No offence taken ned78. you've a lot more experience than me,i don't even
have an spl yet but have been up in a microlight a couple of times.
I'm saving to do the course in one go but for now i'll have to drool at pics on
the net.

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

I get the impression that helicopters are substantially more difficult to learn to fly.

They are. Airplanes don't have to worry about that rather bizarre regime known as "hover". Apart from that (and it's a pretty large "apart"), the concepts are broadly similar.

positron

Excellent thread. From the posts above, PPL with 45 hours of training would cost about 5 to 6K. What next? Is this enough qualification to apply for a commercial pilot job? Any other worthy cause like rescue services etc may be?

Thank you!!

positron

k, I googled!

"A CPL requires a minimum of 150 hours experience, with four theory exams and two flight tests. The PPL actually makes up the first part of the CPL."

zuutroy

Realistically you'll need to have to a frozen ATPL to get a job with an airline

nobby2k1

thanks for the replies! Am kinda worried now RE: Medical as I'm diabetic

jackofalltrades

Nobby2k1 if you like the idea of hovering or flying low to the ground then i'd recommend helicopters, just be aware that they are significantly harder to learn how to fly. Expect to spend about 10 hours to get the knack of hovering, takes a huge amount of determination but it's worth it in the end, I'd try learning on a Hughes 300 rather than a R22 as their a lot more steadier in the air.

gorm

positron wrote:

Excellent thread. From the posts above, PPL with 45 hours of training would cost about 5 to 6K. What next? Is this enough qualification to apply for a commercial pilot job? Any other worthy cause like rescue services etc may be?

Thank you!!

This may give a better idea of cost for a PPL(A) in ireland http://www.nfc.ie/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29

positron

gorm wrote:

This may give a better idea of cost for a PPL(A) in ireland http://www.nfc.ie/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29

Thanks a million gorm, very useful page!

Now having seen the total figures, I guess I will have to make do with MS Flight Simulator for now, and start saving - for a long long time!!

jmayo

If you want to really go professional you will need to do ATPL (14 odd exams) have 1500 hours flying time together with night, multi engine and instrument ratings.
All the hours gained in training for your ratings can contribute towards the 1500 for your unfrozen ATPL.
But you will have to do flight tests for each of your ratings and exams.
Also before going that route make sure you can pass commerical medical which costs a couple of hundred.

Helicopters are harder to fly in sense that unless you get big tubine you need to keep close eye on your three controls (cyclic, collective and pedals), unlike in most GA aeroplanes where you can trim it out to fly no hands no feet.
Also purchasing and running costs of helicopter are much higher than aeroplane.
Also they are thus harder to rent or organise as part of a group share.
Then again helicopters are more fun to fly.
Learn to fly on Robinson since there are generally more of them around and more organisations offering training on them.

You would need to check if British CAA microlight license ok to fly with outside UK? Also their National PPL, which takes less time to get than normal JAA PPL, is not reconginsed outside UK.
Beware lots of pitfalls in aviation licensing regulations.
Also never bulk pay up front for lessons, especially if going overseas.

Owen

jmayo wrote:

Also never bulk pay up front for lessons, especially if going overseas.

Too true. A colleague of mine gave Cranfield Aviation money up front for a PPL, and we had to phone every day for 4 months to get money back from them.

gorm

positron wrote:

Thanks a million gorm, very useful page!

Now having seen the total figures, I guess I will have to make do with MS Flight Simulator for now, and start saving - for a long long time!!

You're welcome. But if you want to know if flying is for you, you might want to take some trial flights with these to see how you get on.

microlights : http://www.ultraflight.ie
Gliding: http://www.dublinglidingclub.ie/

cheaper than ordinary GA, great fun but no good if you want to go commercial

jmayo

Does anyone know the rates in Cork at the moment ?
Also is there still the Antonov AN-2 down there ?
Really would love a go in one of them, of course even if the fuel/oil bill is enormous. Biggest thing you can fly on a ppl as far as I know?

whupass

ok so the jist that i got is that for a commercial license you need to be loaded!!


you need 45 hours and a test and medical for your personal license
then you need a commercial license which is 1500 hours???? so 150€ x 1500= €225,000?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Ruu_Old

Thread stuck. Good ideas and links, keep them coming chums.

jmayo

Ok the 1500 hrs is for an unfrozen ATPL, which is what your airlines ideally are looking for, or as damm near as they can find.
The actual commerical license requires much less hours (JAA CPL is 150 hours-part of which is instrument, solo cross country, night) together with a flight test and I think a few written exams.
But (there is always a but) you really need multi-engine and IR ratings to get commerical work, otherwise you are limited to flying something upto an Antonov AN-2 and purely in VFR conditions.
Alos to fly jets you are tlaking about getting a rating for that type, i.e. you must do the training and pass the checkrides on a A330, MD11, B737, B747 etc.
This applies at much lower level on helicopters i.e. 206, 212, EC135 etc.

And the answer is yes, you do need lots of money.
You can be lucky if you live in a country with a proper military and air force that have the equipment and opportunities to offer the cheaper hour building.
But (another one here) the JAA etc still make military guys take flight tests and exams since the military do not offer these qualifications. They have their own internal systems and ratings.

Owen

You can also opt to teach in the latter part of your ATPL Studies. Each hour your Student pays for, counts as an hour in your log book too!

jmayo

Ah but Ned, you need an FI rating and ideally a flight school that has lots of students and good weather to do series quick hour building as instructor.
So to do serious hour building you would probably need to be US, South Africa.
Florida most days would have 6/8 hours flyable, ok allow couple of hours for afternoon thunderstorm. And this would be almost 7 days a week, 364 days a year.
How many flyable days would Ireland have in an avaerage year?
Also options are glider tuggie or parachute club pilot.
Again you would need to be in full time everyday operations to really do serious quick hour building.

Owen

jmayo wrote:

Ah but Ned, you need an FI rating and ideally a flight school that has lots of students and good weather to do series quick hour building as instructor.

Obviously! But is a way to build hours cheaply, and get paid a wage to do it. Most of the Flight Instructors at the School I use are doing just that, working their way to working with an Airline, and teaching in the process.

Victor

jmayo, in Ireland we have long summer evenings that aren't necessarily available in other places.

jmayo

Victor,
we may have long summer evening but trust me that does not make up for the days that are unflyable. The number of times I have not been able to fly due to rain, low cloud, too strong wind etc.
We do not have the weather of Spain, Florida or South Africa.
You are almost guaranteed flyable weather in these locations.
We cannot say that.
That is why people go to these locations to hour build. I have known people fly 5 or 6 hours a day, 7 days a week in Florida. I know that may not be ideal since may be too intensive.

pclancy

<mod edit> I've moved this out of a locked thread (with a slight edit) as it's an excellent rundown on getting started in a career in aviation, and will at least be read here.

Roundy

</mod edit>
NiSMo as has been said try and find out as much as you can by meeting people, reading up on the lifestyle and doing a couple of introductary lessons at your local airfield. www.pprune.org is a good pilots forum, have a look in the wanabee section.

Try the stickies at the top of this forum as well....

Grab some pilots magazines from Easons or visit http://www.flyinginirelandmagazine.com/ as well....

Below is taken from Irish Aviation Authoritys site www.iaa.ie

How do I become a pilot?

The Personnel Licensing Office receives a substantial number of queries from individuals, career-guidance-teachers and in particular concerned parents whose children wish to embark on a career as a pilot, all seeking the answer to the same question “How do I become a pilot?” The answer below is neither technical nor exhaustive but aims to provide a general answer to the question for you and offers some points that you may wish to consider as you embark on this career.

The first point that the Personnel Licensing Office strongly recommends is that before you “part with a penny” that you should consider undergoing an Initial Class 1 Medical Examination. You will be required to undergo this medical examination prior to your flight test but all too often it has occurred in the past that candidates have failed this medical examination having completed a substantial amount of their flight and ground school training at great personal expense. Therefore, it is strongly recommended that you undergo this medical examination at the outset to ensure that when the time comes for your flight test and the grant of the appropriate licence that you been deemed medically “fit” at Class 1 level. This medical examination will remain valid for 12 months if you are under 40 years of age and for 6 months if you are over 40 years of age. Periodic medical examinations are required to keep your licence current. You may undergo an Initial Class 1 Medical Examination at the AeroMedical Centre in the Mater Private Hospital. Click here for more details including the cost of medical examinations in the AeroMedical Centre.

Now that you are “fighting fit” you will now be in a position to source an FTO (Flight Training Organisation) best meets your needs. FTO’s will have packages that they can send you detailing both the process and the cost involved. Click here for a complete list of IAA approved FTO’s.

If you intend going abroad to undergo your training another point worth considering is the importance of ensuring that the FTO you choose offers JAA (Joint Aviation Authorities) approved courses leading to the grant of a JAA licence. This will ensure that if and when you decide to return home that your licence will be recognised and accepted throughout all JAA member states in Europe. This is particularly important if you decide, for example, to go to the USA to undergo your training as when you return home you don’t want to be in a position whereby you have to repeat some or all of your training for the grant of a JAA licence.

Finally from time to time some airlines may advertise for new recruits to undergo pilot training programmes although this has become rarer in recent times. Such advertisements usually appear in the daily newspapers. It may be worth considering contacting airlines both at home and abroad directly yourself for more information.

Useful Websites

www.jaa.nl Joint Aviation Authorities – Visiting this website you will be able to familiarise yourself with the aims and objectives of the Joint Aviation Authorities and the importance of acquiring a JAA licence.
www.srg.caa.co.uk UK Civil Aviation Authority – In this website you will find a list of JAA FTO’s approved by the UK Civil Aviation Authority. The UK have approved FTO’s in the USA offering JAA courses.
www.faa.gov USA Federal Aviation Administration – The FAA is the equivalent of the IAA in the USA. This website provides extensive information on pilot training but once again please bear in mind that if you choose a school in the USA make sure that they are offering JAA courses.
www.military.ie Visiting this website will give you information on careers in the Air corps

If its your dream to do it, go for it! Just find out as much as you can before you commit to expensive training and be sure its what you want to do with your life...wish I could!

pclancy

Heres a handy list of flying clubs in Ireland....

http://flyinginireland.com/flyingclubs.htm

flybaby

Just a quick Q on funding . . .

What is the most common way of getting the money together for training? Savings, loans, ?

I'm just curious because it seems like a lot to have to get together for people so young.

All comments appreciated!!! :-)

Flybaby!!!

zuutroy

I'm sure you'll hear a huge variety of stories from loans to savings to parents re-mortgaging houses. Everyone's situation is different..

odonnell

Guys heres a question for you... Ive been unable to find a decent answer.

I was also considering doing some lessons, and wouldnt be looking to go commercial in the future - just private. I joined the RAF a few years ago and was graded Level 3 Colour Blind in my medicals.

Obviously in the airforce i was not allowed anywhere NEAR a plane with that colour vision. Can anyone say how this would affect me becoming a pilot personally - you know... not professionally or commercially?

Thanks in advance guys.

cp251

Wow some good info and some really duff info here.

odonnell you can fly privately with a colour vision problem but would be limited to days only which is not such a problem as night flying in Ireland is rare and banned in most of the country. Even that restriction can be removed with a special test.

To be a PPL don't count on getting it in 45 hours. It usually takes 60 plus hours unless you do it full time or are some kind of super pilot.

On the question of funding, that's up to you. If parents can provide it so much the better or at least go guarantor. Flying schools sometimes have arrangements with banks. Many people go the modular route so do the flying and exams in stages. If you want to go to a flying school, reckon on at least 100,000 Euro. Don't bother with the Irish schools, go to Britain or Spain. Oxford air training or Flight Training Europe. A common way to become a pilot is to go to college, study hard and get an excellent job that pays well. Then start flying using what's called the 'modular method'. Usually you are ready to get the flying job by your mid thirties if wife and kids don't put a stop to your ambitions.

To be a professional pilot you need to pass 14 exams for the ATPL:
Principles of flight, Operational Procedures, Meteorology, Air law, General Navigation, Mass and Balance, Instruments, Flight Planning, Performance, Airframes Systems & Power plants, Communication - VFR, Radio Navigation, Communication IFR, Human Performance and Limitations. You only need 9 of those for a commercial pilot's licence but everyone does all 14. Not too tough and in any case the exams are the easy bit. The flying is the tough part.

You can get a CPL in 150 hours in an approved flying school on a full time course but again 200 is more likely. That won't get you a job though. Ryanair might hire you if you pay for their training: about 25K. Then they pay you pittance for a year or two. Even Aer Arann charge for training.

The best bet is to spend even more money to become a poorly paid instructor, build up your hours until some airline deigns to take you. Alternatively you can fly skydivers for free.

You don't have to have an ATPL to get a job in an airline so you don't need 1500 hours to get a job. Usually all you do is pass all the ATPL exams and you have what is called a 'frozen ATPL'. This is usually unfrozen by skills test at the airline you work for. You only really need an ATPL to Captain aircraft above a certain weight.

That's it in a nutshell. I stand to be corrected on any details.

Finally, I would say that unless you are a complete fool for flying like me. Don't even think about a career as a pilot. It's really not worth it anymore. The likes of Ryanair treat their pilots much like their passengers and all the others are copying them. Become a lawyer or a Doctor or something and get your own aeroplane. It's much more fun.

Corega

Only just saw this forum/thread now, excellent stuff and about time. I was told a few years ago by my GP that my colour blindess would prohibit me from becoming either a pilot or interior designer. Obviously I wasn't bothered by the latter, but was distraught at the fact that I'd never have the opportunity to fly. Thanks for clearing that up lads. Also, is it possible for somebody with my affliction to move on to a h/ppl or multi-engined qualification?

pclancy

You might be able for the PPL but I doubt the CPL. The only way to put your mind at rest is to do the medical in the mater or show the visual requirements to your optician and they'll tell you, at least then you'll know for sure.

WexCan

For anyone who's unsure if you'll meet the medical requirements, you're best contacting the CAA in the UK who will either say no outright or will say come for a medical and we'll see. If they say the latter, you can risk it and book yourself on an IAA medical in the Aeromedical Centre in the Mater Private. (Or, you can fly over to Gatwick and do the medical with the CAA who have a history of being a tad bit more willing to bend the rules than the IAA).

For eyesight, print out the requirements, found in this document:

http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/606984.pdf

And have a chat with your optician. The document also gives details of all the oher requirements so you could ask your GP too. This is the document that the guys in the Mater use as their "bible".

ALWAYS get your medical over with as soon as possible as there's little point spending money on lessons only to find out, the week before your first solo, that you won't be given the medical. I know a few people who've gone through that and it was not in the least bit pleasant.

ponyboy

I am gonna head over to south africa to get my ppl flying a weight shift trike. I was there last year and did some training (4 hours) and plan to go back and finish the job.
but will my licence (if i achieve it) be valid in ireland ?
i know that a licence can be jaa rated or not but what does it mean exactly?
also apart from the radio operation exam what is required to fly here in ireland.
and finally... if i import a trike from south africa or the uk will i have to pay some sort of fianna fail flying VRT?

cheers

dotty25

I was just wondering if anyone had any sort of information on what it's like to be an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. What sort of daily routine does it involve? My background is in computer engineering but I would like to possibly move into the aeronautics area!
I'd really appreciate if anyone had any information about this field, what sort of skills it involves and how to move into this area.
Thanks!

cedar

Initally,its a good job but the long term prospects are'nt great after the novelty wears off your gonna be stuck working night shifts with only a hand full of employers to choose from in Ireland its quite limited.So my advice....stear clear

dotty25

Hey,

Thanks for the input! I've always fancied a career in aeronautics, though. Does anyone have any idea what route you can take?
I've seen a few courses in DIT but you need experience in the aeronautics industry to get into them!

cedar

Apologies if I seemed negative at first but if your hell bent on it your best bets are a traineeship or apprenticeship with one of the following in Ireland

Shannon aerospace,Ryanair,Cityjet or Aer Arann.They all advetise these programes on there web sites.Basically after the first 4 years of trainning you can go at your engineers license which will take another 2 maybe and then type or specific aircraft trainning from your employer.Thats when the salary gets a bit better 55kish.But the nature of the work can be very tough...i.e wheel,brake,engines changes outside at night in all weather.Or complex problem solving under pressure during the day for which you will be totally responsible...known as signing your life away.
Hope this helps a bit more

dotty25

Haha, no the advice is good. I'd prefer an honest opinion
I'm wondering is the work particularly physical? Would I need to be fairly strong?
Also, you mentioned that there are not many jobs in Ireland. Would I run the rish of finding myself with a qualification 6 years down the line that I can't use in Ireland?
Thanks again for all the help so far!

cedar

yeah the work can be physical enough but the avionic end of it is more a knowledge based trade which requires a lot of book work and experience.There will always be jobs in Ireland for Licensed aircraft engineers,Ryanair are currently looking for guys but the shift is carap...5nights on 3 hights off...for 75kish and they cant find anyone to take it.

dotty25

Ok, thanks, your advice has really helped!
Am just wondering also why the shifts are always at night?
Also, are there any real positives to the job?
It seems like a nice bonus that you're not tied to the desk in the job. And if it's technical and fairly pressurised, then it's not so likely to get boring and monotonous?

blah

Obviously Cedar's the expert here, don't know anything about aeronautics myself but I assume the work's at night since the planes are in the air during the day. I remember arriving on ryanair on the last flight of the day into Stansted and I saw a ryanair plane parked at every gate, seemed like hundreds of them. I never really thought about how they would have to be maintained between the hours of 12am and 6am

dotty25

D'oh, yes that's probably it.
Thanks

cedar

Seriously bud stick to the computers,it will get better the more experienced you get.As a lot of my mates are now mid late30s in computers,they're career prospects are much better than mine mainly due to the multitude of diff'rent employers out there for them!

cp251

Not an Engineer myself but the brother is. He loves it but have illusions about it. Cedar is right.
Ryanair pay well but the hours are awful. Aer Lingus pay lousy and way below the going rate which is why they are short of Engineers in Belfast. They have a better shift roster though.

It's not that secure either. On the upside there are plenty of opportunities to work overseas. The downside is that sometimes you can only get jobs overseas. I remember once hearing about an Engineer who worked for Tranaer being told. Pack your bags, you're off the to Canada tomorrow..............for six months. It happens.

It's a bit of a vocation really. Cedar would you change careers, seriously now?

One thing though, an Aeronautical Engineer might be of interest to you. Quite different, they never get their hands dirty as it's essentially an office job. But with travel opportunities. They mostly wear suits. Fewer jobs though particularly in Ireland.

cedar

A bit tricky to change now and start at the bottom at something new but if money was'nt an issue Id be gone and so would most 90% of my colleauges.