Total ban on the way?

Pongo

Thought you guys might be interested in this, from today's Indo...

Total ban on way for 'too realistic' replica guns

THE Government plans to introduce a complete ban on replica guns in new laws aimed at cracking down on violent crime.

The ban is expected to specifically target plastic weapons manufactured so that they are virtually identical to real firearms after gardai expressed repeated concerns.

Even weapons experts admitted it was almost impossible to tell from a distance the difference between some plastic replicas and genuine, working firearms.

Garda concerns have mounted over the increasing supply of replicas of such firearms as Kalashnikovs and Uzis and automatic pistols such as SIGs, Glocks and Walthers.

Such replicas have been used in robberies - particularly in the Dublin area.

Gardai are now worried such replica firearms could result in a tragedy.

Government deputy chief whip Billy Kelleher said he shared garda concerns and planned to propose the replica weapon ban during a Dail debate on tough new anti-crime legislation.

Mr Kelleher said he was hopeful such a ban could be included in a revised Criminal Justice Act.

"There is a strong case for controls and potentially a total ban on the over-the-counter sale of such weapons," he said.

"The type of weapons I am talking about are the plastic copies of real pistols and revolvers which, from a distance, are virtually impossible to tell apart from the real thing." The TD said such a ban would not affect the sale of toy weapons for children, which were more obviously fake.

Ralph Riegel

SpitfireIV

:eek: oh oh!

That doesnt sound good, wonder if they are really gonna go ahead with that. To be honest I could never understand how these airsoft guns were made legal when they 'do' look exactly like the real thing from a distance. Looks like our next options for airsoft weapons are ones made from illuminous green and orange plastic :rolleyes:. It says though a ban on "over the counter sales"......so are they just referring to the rouges who sell cheapo' bb guns to kids and the likes?

MaxForce

Just a quick response to this. It is now time to show that there is an organised front to Airsoft in Ireland. We need to start getting on to local politicians to show that this is a sport. The crims have showen it is just as easy for them to import real guns as it is to buy plastic ones. At least with a replica they cannot kill someone. We need to show that we are open to regulation and are willing to sit down and discuss it like the adults (and mature younger people:D ) that we are. If we fall at this point it could be pretty bad for us. We need to get as much suppourt as possible and try and link to a national body at this stage. Least we forget that after spending a pile of money on our ASD's(thats what we are calling them right ) that the Government now have names and addresses of people who have imported them, especialy those that paid VAT on them. Heading to work now so will catch up on this latter.
MF

Sparks

The crims have showen it is just as easy for them to import real guns as it is to buy plastic ones.

The word is "smuggle" not "import" as the latter is a legal procedure.

At least with a replica they cannot kill someone.

Doesn't matter. The law treats pointing a replica at someone the same way as it treats pointing a real firearm at someone if they believe it to be real at the time.

ASD's(thats what we are calling them right )

Pick a better, catchier name. Fast. Something easy for the punters to remember. Paintball has "markers", easy to remember 'cos we all used markers as kids and we know they were harmless. Frankly, I'd suggest the word "toys".

the Government now have names and addresses of people who have imported them

Won't help you. There's an election coming, this is not the time that things go rationally. You need an emotive argument in the public opinion court, not a rational argument. You also desperately need the IAA up and running and you need to be seperated from firearms in every way possible and you need to be tied to something established like paintball and the FIS and you need to be talking to the ISC.

extremetaz

sparks is on the ball with that last point there - elections upcoming and all that, they're going to say whatever gets the votes in regardless of wether they intend to do anything about it or not.

personally, i wouldn't worry too much, it's a high profile topic at the moment and will blow over soon enough - the indo is a doom and gloom rag anyways, wouldn't put a whole lot of faith their word that it's under consideration.

they govt. have much bigger fish to fry at the moment (health service, garda numbers, road fatalities.. all the usual points that take priority at election time)

NakedHedgehog

Would also talk to the UK Airsoft association to get pointers from them as well. They faced this same situation a few months ago and came through it with a special exemption for airsoft.

vlmaxis

We all have to be seen to be safety conscious and I think we should propose that airsoft should require authorisation like paintball, after all we all agree we don't want to see these guns being sold to just anyone especially under 18s.
I think we should form an official organisation and join the NASRC or some other body that will help us. there are very few importers who will only sell to the right people, so we should make it difficult for the others to sell, go for authorisation, what have you got to lose?.
I would also sugest that when a politician knocks at your door, you give him or her the facts about the sport and remind them that you have a vote also.

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

:eek: oh oh!

To be honest I could never understand how these airsoft guns were made legal when they 'do' look exactly like the real thing from a distance. Looks like our next options for airsoft weapons

Comments like this wont help us lads!.

NeMiSiS

Even paintball authorisation is not straight forward, most Garda station don't even know what you are talking about. There has also recently came to light an issue with fixed stocks, which pretty much no "Speed ball" marker would have, this is tornament style paintball.. played on a pitch of sorts (very loose definition). This basically render authorisation invalid.

The situation is ludacris, I do not play airsoft but I am a paintballer, and you have my sympathies. It seems like everything in this country that, the actions of a few idiots make things worse for everyone, and where idiots being irresponsible promote knee jerk reactions from authorities.

It always seems in this country - to me, that people are never credited as have some sort of sense of responsibility, professionalism, and wiliness to do good rather than bad.

I wish I could use my own marker at paintball, I wish acquiring a license for it was straight forward, but I don't see the situation changing anytime soon.

I would imagine paintball markers could fall under the category of "replica guns" in a vague sense.. I'd imagine your general Joe Soap could not distinguish between a gun and a marker.. they see a barrel and a trigger and think "gun".

TK

Dave!

Lads, find your constituencies here and contact your TD's RICKY F*CKING TICK!
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=29&disp=const

I'm gonna do it after work.

Please don't send stupid emails!

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

I think we should form an official organisation and join the NASRC or some other body that will help us.

I can't stress enough how bad an idea that would be. There should be absolutely no connection whatsoever between the IAA and any firearms body, NASRC, NARGC, NTSA, NRPAI, IPSA, NSAI, ICPSA, NRAI or otherwise. Apart from the well-discussed problems internal to some of those groups, there's the far more salient point that the worst thing that could ever happen to airsoft is that people could associate it with real firearms.

vlmaxis

Public perception is going to put it there, like it or not, if we get into an argument about this with the Gards and the public, we will lose, their argument will be that these are guns, they have a trigger, a barrel and they fire a projectile, this is black and white, you cannot argue against this and win, so ride the wave and give them no argument on this front, I think this will take them by surprise, then present your argument about the sport side of these guns.
I think we will have more clout behind us if we join the shooting groups.

Sparks

their argument will be that these are guns, they have a trigger, a barrel and they fire a projectile, this is black and white, you cannot argue against this and win

If that's their argument, you won't have a problem, because these are not firearms, that's black and white and defined in the law by the Minister.

Your problem will be when the public thinks of them as firearms, and the single worst thing you could do for airsoft or paintball is to tie them to a firearms body.

Not to mention, by the way, that the shooting groups have frankly got no clout anyway, just a lot of noise. Look at how badly we got shafted by the 2006 Firearms Act for heaven's sake, and the new restricted list for firearms that's being drafted. Tieing airsoft to us might well be the equivalent of handcuffing yourself to the rail of the Titanic...

vlmaxis

Ok then, What do we do?.

Mark_Sc

Damn

SpitfireIV

vlmaxis wrote:

Comments like this wont help us lads!.

What harm was it vlmaxis? I was just stating the obvious, they do look (not the word 'look'..)like real guns from a distance........am I not correct in saying that? (just stating the obvious I thought.)

I'm not against airsoft or anything, I just said that I couldnt understand how they suddenly became so easy to obtain when they look so much like the real deal

See the thing is guys, that, we, the eduacated ones on the subject know they are no more than bb guns that fire a 6mm plastic ball, they are used for sport and recreation. But those 'not in the know' just see them simply as guns and guns=bad.

LIKE I SAID I'M NOT AGAINST AIRSOFT.......so noone jump on my back here!:D

NakedHedgehog

Sparks is right. These are not firearms. Take a look around the other countries that have survived and see what they're doing. Adapt it to suit us.
If we're going to be sending emails out to our TDs, I'd suggest at least having one email template that everyone can send to their TD. This will show that we are organized and that we're not just a couple of rag-tags here and there with toy guns.

Incidentally, Toy guns is exactly what these are. They are also labeled as such on all manufacturers websites and a lot of retail websites.

IAA leadership should write up a letter that the rest of us can send on to our local reps, if that is what should be done. Writting your own stuff just increases the risk of someone saying something stupid. The letter should recognize the fact and condemn those that use airsoft toy guns in crimes. It should however also highlight that banning these will not fix the situation since they are legally obtainable in Northern Ireland and even before the CJB revision they were being smuggled into the country by those that would use them to do wrong.
It should also highlight the sport of airsoft. How quickly it has grown in Ireland and how it emphasizes honesty and teamwork as well as sporting rivalry. It's a sport, not just a hobby. Maybe something about cross-border relationships as well (though that may be going a bit far). Explain how those that play the sport are law abiding and are doing everything in their power to regulate themselves.

This type of letter (along with a lot of lobbying) is what saved airsoft in the UK. They have been here before us. Let's not be arrogant about this - talk to them. Get their help!

NakedHedgehog

Here's the link to the ABA:
http://www.associationofbritishairsoft.org/

and the link to Arnie's Airsoft entry on the issue:
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/saveairsoft.htm

extremetaz

i'll get on to some of the lads on the ASI forums and see if i can get some advice from them and maybe some contact details for the guys who were heading up the move in the UK - hopefully they'll be able to give us some pointers.

in the meantime - PLEASE NOBODY GO EMAILING YOUR LOCAL TD'S JUST YET!

we need to have a well written and properly phrased template with all the relevent *FACTUAL & CORRECT* information included - proper substantiated examples or legislation and systems of organisation only!

no personal stories or experiences - they don't count for anything.

it'll take a while to gather this info (maybe a few days) but if we start the ball rolling now we can probably have a useable draft by the end of next week.

kdouglas

this is why i hate politics, bunch of **** who dont know what they're talking about who will say anything just to get public approval and get re-elected.

extremetaz

right, i've sent an email to Airsoft International magazine and onto the ASI forums looking for advice and contact details for those involved in the effort to the VCR bill introduced.

i'll keep ye all posted on any progress as it happens.

vlmaxis

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

What harm was it vlmaxis? I was just stating the obvious, they do look (not the word 'look'..)like real guns from a distance........am I not correct in saying that? (just stating the obvious I thought.)

I am not getting on anyone's case here Croppy, I just think that public perception is always bad when it comes down to it in relation to anything with a trigger but I just don't like to see ourselves stating the obvious and posting it were the Joe anti gun public can see it, because then they use it against us.

SpitfireIV

No probs vlmaxis

vlmaxis

Cheers

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Ok then, What do we do?.

1. Get the IAA up and running formally.
2. Get the IAA recognised by the Federation of Irish Sport ASAP.
3. Get the IAA recognised by the vendors ASAP.
4. Get the IAA recognised by the international Airsoft body, whomever that is.
5. Get the IAA associated with the ABA and any other national association in other countries ASAP.
6. Have the IAA approach the ISC to discuss recognition ASAP.
7. Contact every newspaper editor and sports editor with a press release from the IAA stating who they are, who they represent and that they back the Minister 100% on his effort to take airsoft toys out of the hands of the criminal element who abuse them in order to protect the sport of airsoft and the average joes who enjoy this extremely safe athletic sport, and that you call upon all IAA-approved vendors to refuse to sell these toys to anyone who is not affiliated to the IAA.
8. Call the radio stations, starting with the local stations like Newstalk and FM104 and DCAL 103.2 and so on, to put out the same message - that the IAA is fully behind the Minister's drive to protect airsoft.
9. Get issuing IAA approval to vendors, fields and airsofters quickly.
10. Register the IAA name with the Companies Registration Office to prevent anyone pulling a cheeky one.
11. Get every international airsoft body and the FIS and the ISC to write to the IAA supporting them and the sport and stressing how great it'll be to see Irish airsofties at international competitions.
12. Approach companies that sponsor paintball to get an Irish Airsoft Team sponsored, even if only for a year, just to get the presence out there.
13. Decry any and all abuses of airsoft toys in criminal acts to every media outlet going, stressing that the IAA is calling on the Minister to protect the sport of Airsoft by having the DPP seek the maximum penalty (look it up ) under existing laws (look them up and cite them) to prevent criminals from abusing toys in this fashion
14. Don't ever, ever again refer to an airsoft toy as anything but a toy, or an airsoft player as anything but an airsoftie or airsofter. Take ownership of the language used. Stress that this is a safe, fun, harmless sport for all the family that promotes fitness and wellbeing.

There's a few ideas.

extremetaz

excellent! nice one!

right lads, we have a to do list - lets hop too.

CrazyRabbit

Very Nice Sparks. Was about to post something similar, but not as detailed.

Only thing I would disagree with is calling them toys. Nobody cares about banning 'dangerous' toys, it's done all the time. But banning a sport, well that's not someting that happens very often. Makes people think about it a bit more.

Being called a sport is not only accurate, but lends credence to airsoft.

And besides, who uses toys? Children do. And that's not an association we want right now, is it?

Anyone want to have a go at creating an official press release and posting it here for review?

Sparks

And besides, who uses toys? Children do.

You want to keep your airsoft toys or not? If you do, give up on the idea of giving them hard-sounding names, at least for now. You want people to think of them as children's toys, and nothing more potent than that.

kdouglas

nice one sparks, sounds like a good plan.

N.O.I.P.

A press release is being worked on at the moment, hopefully it should be done by the end of the day

vlmaxis

Sparks wrote:

1. Get the IAA up and running formally.
2. Get the IAA recognised by the Federation of Irish Sport ASAP.
3. Get the IAA recognised by the vendors ASAP.
4. Get the IAA recognised by the international Airsoft body, whomever that is.
5. Get the IAA associated with the ABA and any other national association in other countries ASAP.
6. Have the IAA approach the ISC to discuss recognition ASAP.
7. Contact every newspaper editor and sports editor with a press release from the IAA stating who they are, who they represent and that they back the Minister 100% on his effort to take airsoft toys out of the hands of the criminal element who abuse them in order to protect the sport of airsoft and the average joes who enjoy this extremely safe athletic sport, and that you call upon all IAA-approved vendors to refuse to sell these toys to anyone who is not affiliated to the IAA.
8. Call the radio stations, starting with the local stations like Newstalk and FM104 and DCAL 103.2 and so on, to put out the same message - that the IAA is fully behind the Minister's drive to protect airsoft.
9. Get issuing IAA approval to vendors, fields and airsofters quickly.
10. Register the IAA name with the Companies Registration Office to prevent anyone pulling a cheeky one.
11. Get every international airsoft body and the FIS and the ISC to write to the IAA supporting them and the sport and stressing how great it'll be to see Irish airsofties at international competitions.
12. Approach companies that sponsor paintball to get an Irish Airsoft Team sponsored, even if only for a year, just to get the presence out there.
13. Decry any and all abuses of airsoft toys in criminal acts to every media outlet going, stressing that the IAA is calling on the Minister to protect the sport of Airsoft by having the DPP seek the maximum penalty (look it up ) under existing laws (look them up and cite them) to prevent criminals from abusing toys in this fashion
14. Don't ever, ever again refer to an airsoft toy as anything but a toy, or an airsoft player as anything but an airsoftie or airsofter. Take ownership of the language used. Stress that this is a safe, fun, harmless sport for all the family that promotes fitness and wellbeing.

There's a few ideas.

Fair play Sparks, there's work to be done

Dave!

Sparks I really don't agree with calling them "toys". It absolutely reeks of carelessness, from others' perspective. When you say something's a toy, people think of GI Joe. GI Joe doesn't require special safety equipment, regulations, rules, etc., to be used safely. What's wrong with referring to it as "sporting equipment" or somethin like that? That way we're acknowledging that the equipment is NOT a toy, which should be used by children. It is part of a sport, and sports require rules and safety precautions. I think we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we officially considered them "toys". Besides, we're trying to tie ourselves in with other sports like paintball, and trying to promote the image of an organised body, not of a bunch of kids playing games with toys that fire projectiles at dangerous speeds.

We'd be giving the opposition an advantage otherwise.

"So under the new legislation, these replicas are effectively toys--"
"Wait wait, hang on, you mean it's a TOY that blinded my son....!?!??!" etc

I agree with everything else you said, and we need to get cracking on them all. Yeh we should hold off on contacting TDs until we have an official statement. I'll start drafting one later and post it up, if nobody else has.

Sparks

What's wrong with referring to it as "sporting equipment" or somethin like that?

It's too long. "Marker" works well for paintball. You need something similarly short, familiar, harmless-sounding for a name. "Toy" may be the best you can get for now. Remember you're not talking about appealing to the TDs here, but to the masses who vote for the TDs.

egan007

Ban replica guns that can't kill and allow real guns that can??

Now that's some fuked up logic

kdouglas

well they dont allow real guns, you have to have a licence to import one into the country. but as usual with everything that's illegal, where there's a will, there's a way.

i think our main argument against any form of ban is the fact that if someone wants to commit a crime with a weapon, they will. and using a non-firing replica or a non-lethal airsoft device is much better than them using a real gun or a knife/syringe etc...

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

It's too long. "Marker" works well for paintball. You need something similarly short, familiar, harmless-sounding for a name. "Toy" may be the best you can get for now. Remember you're not talking about appealing to the TDs here, but to the masses who vote for the TDs.

Projector?

Sparks

Not really sidney, it doesn't tie to what the airsoft toy does. "Tagger" maybe or something like that. A paintball gun marks you with paint, ergo marker. What's the verb for what an airsoft toy does to you?

N.O.I.P.

how about popper?

anyway the term is all that important at the moment, there is an awful lot to be done before a press statement can be released, I suggest we focus on that

Sparks

Popper's better than AEG or AGR or some other TLA, NOIP, but it's not as friendly as it could be.

And don't make the mistake of thinking the name is unimportant. The name, the language you use, that's all-important. If you guys don't take ownership of the language now, before you contact anyone, then you're sunk, because language frames thought. Don't forget that.

N.O.I.P.

While I realise that the terminology that we use is important I started a thread about it a few days ago I just think that we have more pressing things to do today then argue amongst ourselves over what term to use. We should be hunting down new recruits, compiling a list of all known domestic suppliers and sites, and approaching the previously mentioned sporting bodies. I just don't want people to think that deciding on a new name is our most pressing issue

Bradidup

Would that include the Johnny Seven OMA gun?

http://writersblocklive.com/oma/

Mark_Sc

People are forgetting that the problem isnt with the toy but with the holder.
All we need is carfull, responsable people who know not to let a little kid play with an airsoft gun. I have a little brother, hes 8 or 9 month old and grabs and plays everything he can get his hands on. I learned almost instantly to keep him away from anything sharp, hard, heavy or otherwise potentially dangerous to him. How many small kids harm themself or others with sharp kitchin knives? Very few. This is because people know how and where to keep them.

All that is needed is to keep people under the age of 16(18) from buying them perhaps even using them outside designated areas. (ie. HRTA and Preditor).
It seems like it isnt long before replica knives, bottles of bleach and anything that could harm kids are illeagal without a liscence

kdouglas

N.O.I.P. wrote:

how about popper?

anyway the term is all that important at the moment, there is an awful lot to be done before a press statement can be released, I suggest we focus on that

quick google search for the word poppers: http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=poppers&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Sparks

NOIP wrote:

I just don't want people to think that deciding on a new name is our most pressing issue

I get where you're coming from NOIP, I just don't agree with you, because if you can get everyone calling them by a friendly innocent name, then your critics sound daft and you sound reasonable. Names are fundamental things and you're talking about dealing with the mass media, where first impressions are the only impressions. Trust me, get the basics right first.

Mark_Sc wrote:

People are forgetting that the problem isnt with the toy but with the holder.

No, it isn't. The problem is with the people hearing about this on the radio who know nothing about airsoft.
Don't forget who you need to convince or you're lost before you start.

Mark_Sc

Just about to point that out, can you imagine the amount of customs seasures?

IronWolf

Can someone from the IAA draft a template letter for all of us to send to our respective politicians? I think it would be best that we don't send them mixed messages.

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

Not really sidney, it doesn't tie to what the airsoft toy does. "Tagger" maybe or something like that. A paintball gun marks you with paint, ergo marker. What's the verb for what an airsoft toy does to you?

Striker?

Sparks

To strike someone is rarely seen as friendly sidney. I think tagger or toy is about the best I can think of myself.

extremetaz

right, how about we just use the phrase "airsoft replica" for the moment?

gets us out of the "it's not a toy" firing line and also gives us distance from the "firearms/gun/projectile device" side aswell...

Captain Chaos

Sparks wrote:

To strike someone is rarely seen as friendly sidney. I think tagger or toy is about the best I can think of myself.

Sporting Equipment, maybe. A nice general term a politician might use.;)

I think a Tagger or Plinker is about as good as you can get from 'toy'.

vlmaxis

What about BeadBall :rolleyes: :mad: :eek: :cool:
See the Beads?

vlmaxis

extremetaz wrote:

right, how about we just use the phrase "airsoft replica" for the moment?

gets us out of the "it's not a toy" firing line and also gives us distance from the "firearms/gun/projectile device" side aswell...

They don't like the word Replica either!