To those who don't know: Yes we have an Air Corps

Gablin · 12-03-2007 10:23pm #1

And here's videos of them:

PC-9s in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkiB3n-AEOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJpys6CY1Y

Owen · 12-03-2007 10:31pm

I was reading an article in this month's Flying in Ireland magazine on the Aer Corps Cessnas. They said that at one point, the Cessnas had rocket launchers installed on the wing tips, and when you fired a rocket, the backforce would bring the aircraft to a standstill in the air. I sh*t you not ...

RoundyMooney · 12-03-2007 10:33pm

Nice videos.

If you want to embed them in the post, gablin, just wrap youtube tags around the text at the end of the youtube video url, as in [PHP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkiB3n-AEOI

[/PHP] for the PC-9 firing video.

ned78 wrote:

I was reading an article in this month's Flying in Ireland magazine on the Aer Corps Cessnas. They said that at one point, the Cessnas had rocket launchers installed on the wing tips, and when you fired a rocket, the backforce would bring the aircraft to a standstill in the air. I sh*t you not ...

:eek:

junkyard · 12-03-2007 10:51pm

I think I read somewhere the Irish government have or were buying back one of the first planes they had when the air corps first started.

peasant · 13-03-2007 10:04am

Those PC 9's are fairly impressive.

I work next to Sligo Airport and once or twice a month they come down here in flights of up to three to do overflight and approach / touchdown excercises.

The speed (and sound) of these yokes is something else.

Steyr · 13-03-2007 2:39pm

ned78 wrote:

I was reading an article in this month's Flying in Ireland magazine on the Aer Corps Cessnas. They said that at one point, the Cessnas had rocket launchers installed on the wing tips, and when you fired a rocket, the backforce would bring the aircraft to a standstill in the air. I sh*t you not ...

Its "AIR CORPS" Not AER CORPS like AerLingus
Well your wrong there Rockets are "Recoil-less" so they dont recoil like a gun so no the Cessna would not Stall in the Air, whoever wrote that should be shot. And Yes the Air Corps Cessna's were equipped with Rockets when Operating.

Steyr · 13-03-2007 2:43pm

junkyard wrote:

I think I read somewhere the Irish government have or were buying back one of the first planes they had when the air corps first started.

Yes that is true, heres the post:

Lorna Siggins
One of the first and only surviving biplanes used by the Air Corps 75 years ago is to be purchased on the State's behalf by Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea.

The purchase of the Avro 631 cadet model, used in second World War patrols off the Irish coastline, is expected to cost more than $200,000 (ˆ152,000), with additional delivery costs.

There are "no plans" for the Minister to fly it back to Ireland from New Zealand, according to his department, but it may be shipped in time for the general election.

Confirming the bid yesterday, the Minister said that he was "very conscious of the Air Corp's proud past and of the desire of many aviation enthusiasts, military and civil alike to preserve as much of the Air Corps heritage as possible". The current owner was keen for it to be returned to its original aerodrome in Baldonnel, he said.

In March, 1932, the Air Corps took delivery of a number of Avro aircraft - the 631 Cadet model - at Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel. The planes were painted in Air Corps colours of black and silver, with the national flag across the rudder and wingtips.

The C7 in New Zealand was a replacement for one of the Avros which crashed in 1932, and was used by the Air Corps from 1934. Later it was sold into private ownership, and was consigned to the rafters of a timber mill for more than 40 years before a well-known aircraft restorer in England, Ron Souch, located it.

By the time it arrived in New Zealand most of its fuselage structure had been restored. Rare aircraft collector Jim Schmidt continued the project, and also retains the plane's original log book.

It includes a letter from a former Air Corps pilot, Donald MacCarron, describing his experiences in the C7 on patrol during the second World War. "At one point he jokes about the boredom almost driving him to join the Luftwaffe!" Schmidt told The Irish Times when it reported on the discovery two years ago. One other Avro 631 exists but it is on display in a Portuguese museum. The C7 is the world's only "active example", still flying in the Irish colours.

http://www.avrocadet.com/

jmayo · 29-03-2007 10:43am

So are they putting the Avro back in front line service?
If only the eejits hadn't gotten rid of all the stuff from the 50s.

Steyr · 29-03-2007 11:38am

jmayo wrote:

So are they putting the Avro back in front line service?

I really hope what you just said there is a joke.

jmayo · 29-03-2007 4:45pm

What do you think ?
It is meant ot be a snipe comment about air corp and what they have to deal with from their politcal masters. You know messer moustachio from Limerick and all his predecessors.
Even if our air force is second or more likely third class (in terms of what they have got to fly), I don't think it is very likely they will use an aircraft of such historic importance and years anywhere but as a musuem piece.
But

jmayo · 29-03-2007 4:52pm

An regarding getting rid of all stuff form 50s etc...yes I think it was wrong, but then again I think the RAF should have held onto some Spits and hurricanes.
Sadly the bean counters always win. Yeah sure they were obsolete in terms of jets but they made a great sound, taught real flying and were gorgeous to see. All things aviation buffs and some of the great unwashed public will pay to get.

Steyr · 30-03-2007 6:44pm

The Air Corps ( Not Air Force ) do a damn good job with what they have, i know we all would love to see more but hopefully the PC9M's are a step forward.

Bradidup · 30-03-2007 7:21pm

Anyone remember the De Havilland Vampires? They used to to look and sound class in three formation flying over the Easter Parade. I think they still have one left in the museum.

http://www.military.ie/images/vamptwr2.jpg

FiSe · 31-03-2007 6:42am

Yes, there's one in Collin's Barracks in Dublin and second is being restored at Baldonnel, there is third one somewhere around /?/, or that's the rumour anyway...

Bradidup · 31-03-2007 12:20pm

FiSe wrote:

Yes, there's one in Collin's Barracks in Dublin and second is being restored at Baldonnel, there is third one somewhere around /?/, or that's the rumour anyway...

Nice one, I thaught they were sold off, they were a classic I believe they had a wooden frame!

RoundyMooney · 31-03-2007 1:30pm

I got excited for a second when I read that post, thinking it was Collins' in Cork that was referred to

jmayo · 02-04-2007 9:35am

Steyr,
the reason I referred to the "The Air Corps" as Air Force is that is what they would be compared to in other countries. Although with US they could be compared to US Marines since they provide an air arm to their ground troops.

I would say the PC9M's are the final step. I don't think that there will be the same amount of money in the kitty in a few years. Once the building boom comes to an end the government coffers will take a big hit. There will be more of an outcry for money to be spent on health, etc than in buying fast jets.

The reason I compared the Air Corp to 3rd rate air force is because of the equipment that they have to work with. No matter how good a pilot you are, if you are flying Cessna you can not compete with guy flying Hunter never mind guy flying Hornet. (guy here can be male or female so as not to cause offense to anyone).
Saying that some pilots in the Air Corp have as big a heads as their equivalents in other air forces....just a military pilot thing I guess.

jerry2ie · 20-01-2008 2:44pm

hi guys anyone on here from 45 th appt class , would be great to here fro any of u guys again , jerry noonan ex er air corps

Oilrig · 20-01-2008 11:58pm

If I can be pedantic... I thought the Air Corps don't have Cessna's they're Rheims, ie the French version...

PC9's are as close as you'll get in a prop this side of a jet, serious piece of kit and great to see it. I believe the Kiwis are watching with interest...

Roll on the C130J... it has to happen...:D

Steyr · 21-01-2008 12:14am

Oilrig wrote: »

If I can be pedantic... I thought the Air Corps don't have Cessna's they're Rheims, ie the French version...

Correct Reims Cessna's, used to be armed the odd time too with rockets.

Oilrig wrote: »

PC9's are as close as you'll get in a prop this side of a jet, serious piece of kit and great to see it. I believe the Kiwis are watching with interest...

Especially since we recently trained the Mexican AF on the PC9M.

Oilrig wrote: »

Roll on the C130J... it has to happen...:D

Hopefully, 3 or 4 for overseas etc but Bal needs to undergo some major Overhauling and a bigger Ramp!!

Aidan Disney · 21-01-2008 12:42pm

Bal needs to undergo some major Overhauling and a bigger Ramp!!

Agreed

ian_m · 22-01-2008 3:57pm

A bit of effort went into those videos. Anyone know where they do the coastal firing activities?

FiSe · 22-01-2008 5:07pm

Gormanstown, Co. Meath, me thinks :cool:

View Profile · 22-01-2008 9:28pm

Some Hawk jet trainers would go nicely with the PC9's!

Steyr · 22-01-2008 9:47pm

Gormanstown indeed. Does anybody know if they do low level flying? Do the Air Corps have LFA's? Seems like they do in the video.

LFA = Low Fly Area.

Fabio · 23-01-2008 10:42am

View Profile wrote: »

Some Hawk jet trainers would go nicely with the PC9's!

They would actually.

Surely few MIG's would be cost effective...

Captain Chaos · 24-01-2008 2:13am

Hawks are old and MiGs, 29s and 35s have a low mean time between overhauls of engines compared to western fighters.

If we were shopping for a fighter, the F-16C/D Block 50/52+ or the JAS-39C/D would do well for us. Will never happen though.

An advanced combat trainer like the T-50 or Yak-130 would be good buys.

View Profile · 24-01-2008 9:30am

The Hawk Mk 128 isn't old.

View Profile · 24-01-2008 9:31am

cp251 · 24-01-2008 1:19pm

Steyr wrote: »

Gormanstown indeed. Does anybody know if they do low level flying? Do the Air Corps have LFA's? Seems like they do in the video.
LFA = Low Fly Area.

They do indeed but not in LFAs but MOAs (military operating areas). Which are marked on the Irish aeronautical chart.

Scruff · 24-01-2008 2:40pm

Great videos, cant beleive i'm only seeing them now:rolleyes:
They dont look like too bad a shot either.

Steyr · 24-01-2008 8:28pm

View Profile wrote: »

The Hawk Mk 128 isn't old.

The 128's are soon to replace all current Hawk T1's in service with the RAF.....Valley is so close and all..:o

pclancy · 25-01-2008 5:08pm

Even as someone that loves aviation, I'm actually glad that we dont have any strike/fighter aircraft it would really annoy me to think we're paying millions to keep them in the air whilst our health and edcation services suffer. Just doesnt make sense to me for little old Ireland to ever need to spend much on the air core apart from SAR or Medivac stuff. I mean, where exactly lies the threat to us?

Steyr · 25-01-2008 7:53pm

pclancy wrote: »

Even as someone that loves aviation, I'm actually glad that we dont have any strike/fighter aircraft it would really annoy me to think we're paying millions to keep them in the air whilst our health and edcation services suffer. Just doesnt make sense to me for little old Ireland to ever need to spend much on the air core apart from SAR or Medivac stuff. I mean, where exactly lies the threat to us?

A few jets are NOT going to cripple the economy, who is to say in 10 years there wont be a threat? Fact is we have alot of Air and Sea space to "patrol" and we are incapable of that, its a matter of principal, Health will always suffer because of bad management not money, same goes for Education and sadly in this case Defence. Thats the problem with Ireland its an attitude of dont fix it until its broken and when its broken either dont replace it or partially fix it, fine example of this would be The Dauphins, one crashes ( RIP ) and its not replaced and a few are mothballed to keep one or 2 Airborne as the prats are hard to source because the Irish Dauphins were a special kind with advanced once off avionics for the type.

Wibbs · 25-01-2008 11:05pm

Cool vids. Never knew they existed.

The irony of course is that if we ever bought back one of the Spitfire Mk 9's we threw out back in the day, our historic aircraft would outperform and chew up the new stuff in a dogfight(which would never happen anyway of course). Higher rate of climb, higher roll rate, higher maximum speed, higher speed in a dive, greater rate of turn, higher maximum altitude, more guns, more gentle in the stall etc.

Then again, against that the old yokes drink the juice like it's going out of fashion, would be even more expensive to buy, would break down more often, unbalanced controls, are not exactly friendly on landing and the view from the cockpit isn't confidence inspiring(sat in one once, looking from left to right all you can see is wing, bonnet, wing in that order)

only one seaters(though "our" spits(seafires) had two) etc

Joking and nerd comparisons aside, with so many countries out there that can't afford or don't want to operate jets you would think some manufacturer would come up with a relatively cheap turboprop aircraft that wasn't just a jet trainer, using the expertise built up in WW2 and adding in modern avionics and composite materials. An aircraft that would be on a proper par with those older aircraft. Something with the range of a P51, the efficient wing of a Spit, with the ease of maintenance of a turboprop, with a tricycle undercarriage thrown in. I remember seeing an article on a turboprop P51 conversion, so it could be done. Can you imagine a kevlar/carbon turboprop "Spitang"? They would be smaller than modern fighter jets and would have a much smaller radar/IR signature and would be cheaper to operate. They might have some longevity too, considering how much of the old stuff is still kicking around.

OK I'm quite insane and I await the flames with good grace....:)

IRLConor · 26-01-2008 12:47am

I like the idea. I've thought that if - sorry when - I make billions I'll have a new de Havilland Mosquito built. Two beefy turboprops, modern materials and avionics but the same basic principal and shape. Purely for the nerd value.

Cool videos BTW.

DublinWriter · 26-01-2008 6:37am

pclancy wrote: »

Even as someone that loves aviation, I'm actually glad that we dont have any strike/fighter aircraft it would really annoy me to think we're paying millions to keep them in the air whilst our health and edcation services suffer.

...when instead we can spend millions on useless voting machines and HRM systems.

Currently the secondary role of the Air Corps is as a free flight-school for Ryanair. Can you tell me that's money well spent, or indeed if the Air Corps actually needs two standing musical bands?

I think the Aer Corps should have proper jet-fighter capability. I was at the St.Paddys day parade and some people in the crowd actually laughed when the Air Corps did their fly-by.

therecklessone · 26-01-2008 11:06am

DublinWriter wrote: »

I think the Aer Corps should have proper jet-fighter capability. I was at the St.Paddys day parade and some people in the crowd actually laughed when the Air Corps did their fly-by.

Says more about the people you were standing with than the aircraft TBH.

View Profile · 26-01-2008 12:46pm

We may be a geographically small country but we are a wealthy and high tech one.

The likes of Belgium, Holland, Austria, Switzerland, and the Czech Republic all have modern jet fighters which allow them to defend themselves from any possible threats.

They all have a land mass area similar or smaller to Ireland!

Just because Ireland hasn't experienced any outside threat yet dosent mean it wont.

Its a tad embarrasing if the likes of the RAF have to be called into our airspace to deal with a Ryanair 737 that hasnt been in ATC contact and hence considered a possible threat.

Wibbs · 26-01-2008 1:36pm

therecklessone wrote: »

Says more about the people you were standing with than the aircraft TBH.

Yes an no. It is farcical and a little pathetic that a relatively wealthy country such as our own has as it's apex military aircraft a plane that would have been easy to shoot down in WW2. That is a bit sad. It can't even intercept possible rogue airliners as View Profile points out. It's barely useful as ground support and the range ain't to great either.

FiSe · 26-01-2008 2:11pm

The problem is - as Steyer pointed out - in attitude of people who can do. IAC is small, and always will be, but it should be efficient. There should be more Maritime patrol aircrafts, more Army coop helis and yes a multirole interceptors and - in my opinion more GASU helis manned by Garda staff.
But the view is, there's no imminent threat to this country, after all we are Irish and everybody loves Irish

, so there's no need for a few expensive toys for chosen few. But what we will do in case that such a situation will arise? Go and try to get some old bangers from Texas air cemetaries? With tipical "that'll do" exuse?

Just wonder

And I think that Ireland have some obligation towards the EU regarding border patroling?

DublinWriter · 26-01-2008 6:21pm

FiSe wrote: »

But the view is, there's no imminent threat to this country, after all we are Irish and everybody loves Irish , so there's no need for a few expensive toys for chosen few. But what we will do in case that such a situation will arise?

Irish people are reactive rather than proactive. We'll spend the least time planning the solution that will require the least work and spend decades and billions re-doing the original solution.

Sure, a disaster as you described could happen, and when it does we'll be more than ready to rise to the challenge with committees, quangos, special extended editions of Liveline, more tribunals and a Christy Moore charity single for the relatives of the victims.

therecklessone · 26-01-2008 7:48pm

The argument re. Air Corps equipment has been done to death on boards, but I've yet to see anyone put forward a credible threat to this state that would require a modern air defence network.

5uspect · 26-01-2008 8:10pm

Here are a few more Air Corps shots from my time there (2003)
These are of the old relics due for restoration etc.
http://www.zooomr.com/photos/5uspect/sets/25719/
I have more of active aircraft that I must upload as well as a few 35mm prints.

Black Swan · 26-01-2008 8:12pm

Certainly we have an air corps. Why do you think they call us birds?

FiSe · 27-01-2008 2:01pm

therecklessone wrote: »

The argument re. Air Corps equipment has been done to death on boards, but I've yet to see anyone put forward a credible threat to this state that would require a modern air defence network.

This thread is not about that, I'm affraid :rolleyes:

Steyr · 28-01-2008 12:03am

therecklessone wrote: »

The argument re. Air Corps equipment has been done to death on boards, but I've yet to see anyone put forward a credible threat to this state that would require a modern air defence network.

Here ya go, Global Terrorism, terrorists hijack an Airliner over the Irish west coast inbound for the UK, we do nothing, RAF get the call, world media have a field day at our expense......."Ireland was incapable of intercepting the airliner and protecting its citizens if the rogue airliner went for a heavily populated area in Ireland"

Point here would be Bali, what was of strategic interest over there??? Nothing much, but they still hit it..

pclancy · 28-01-2008 10:35am

Steyr wrote: »

Thats the problem with Ireland its an attitude of dont fix it until its broken and when its broken either dont replace it or partially fix it, fine example of this would be The Dauphins, one crashes ( RIP ) and its not replaced and a few are mothballed to keep one or 2 Airborne as the prats are hard to source because the Irish Dauphins were a special kind with advanced once off avionics for the type.

Fair enough I agree the equipment we do have and need such as patrol aircraft and helicopters for our waters should be well maintained and supported so that they are safe so as not to repeat the Dauphin crash, that goes without saying. Money should be spent on stuff like that and people should not die due to underfunded resources.

What I do not agree on is that a country with only 4 million people needs a fleet of F16 so that we can "look good" to the rest of the world, some flyboy jocks can get their rocks off screaming around and getting trained for free and not be embarrassed about having to phone the RAF or another EU state for help should something go wrong. I personally dont believe terrorists will use that method of air attack again and even if they did there are hundreds of far more sensative targets in Europe then Ireland worth way more political clout. Look at the US with one of the worlds most advanced airforces yet what good did it do them during 9/11? Do you really think the minister of defence in Ireland would authroise the shooting down of a civilian airliner?

Yes other nations our size have decent air forces but so what? Does it really matter what people think during flypasts? Who exactly are our enemies anyway, Billions of people in the world dont even know what or where Ireland is and we're a nation that has managed not to offend or agress anyone in our short history of self rule, there are much more bigger fish for terrorists to attack in the world.

FiSe · 28-01-2008 4:54pm

I think the question is not if, but when more likely.

But as I said earlier, I think that this post isn't about "get jets now!" But the title says "YES WE HAVE AN AIR CORPS" no matter what they're flying at adding me.

Wrecking Crew · 29-01-2008 10:48pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Cool vids. Never knew they existed.

The irony of course is that if we ever bought back one of the Spitfire Mk 9's we threw out back in the day, our historic aircraft would outperform and chew up the new stuff in a dogfight(which would never happen anyway of course). Higher rate of climb, higher roll rate, higher maximum speed, higher speed in a dive, greater rate of turn, higher maximum altitude, more guns, more gentle in the stall etc.

Then again, against that the old yokes drink the juice like it's going out of fashion, would be even more expensive to buy, would break down more often, unbalanced controls, are not exactly friendly on landing and the view from the cockpit isn't confidence inspiring(sat in one once, looking from left to right all you can see is wing, bonnet, wing in that order) only one seaters(though "our" spits(seafires) had two) etc

Joking and nerd comparisons aside, with so many countries out there that can't afford or don't want to operate jets you would think some manufacturer would come up with a relatively cheap turboprop aircraft that wasn't just a jet trainer, using the expertise built up in WW2 and adding in modern avionics and composite materials. An aircraft that would be on a proper par with those older aircraft. Something with the range of a P51, the efficient wing of a Spit, with the ease of maintenance of a turboprop, with a tricycle undercarriage thrown in. I remember seeing an article on a turboprop P51 conversion, so it could be done. Can you imagine a kevlar/carbon turboprop "Spitang"? They would be smaller than modern fighter jets and would have a much smaller radar/IR signature and would be cheaper to operate. They might have some longevity too, considering how much of the old stuff is still kicking around.

OK I'm quite insane and I await the flames with good grace....:)

Or just dig out the blueprints to the Bachem Natter and stick a few of them round Dublin.

A bonus would be Ryanair not wanting to hire any pilot who can't get his plane down in one piece.

Oilrig · 29-01-2008 11:58pm

Poor old Aer Corps have fallen between the stools for too long IMHO

As an Aer Corps, they were deemed to be the air wing of the Army, but ended up doing SAR, instead of a dedicated Coast Guard, (Gov't penny pinching) Doing fishery patrol - income generators... (We need a Navy) and just about everything else...

Air wing of the Army my butt, how many soldiers have been transported for example? Alo3's certainly didn't offer any other support, apart from the Colemans Island Op of long ago, very few I suspect...

Now, with our commitments to EU Battlegroups etc maybe our flying folk can finally stake their claim to their true value - give them the tactical assets they need to carry out their role.

Similar with the Naval Service.

To those who don't know: Yes we have an Air Corps

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