24 hour bars. Good/bad idea?

Rabies

Do you think Ireland will ever introduce a 24hr alcohol serving license? Would it increase alcohol problems.

I think it would be a novelty at first, but most people would still finish up at 3-4am and go home.

FlutterinBantam

He heh heh he heh.... I assume you are NOT based in Ireland.!!!!!

Killaqueen!!!

Haha...yeah I dount it will ever be introduced but I like the idea. There are obvious problems about it but it's a nice idea. It would create more jobs too.

Theta

Did this not happen in some places England and as it turns out most people are home by 5 anyway???. It might be a good idea from the point of view that it would cut down on the 3am rush for food/taxi's which causes alot of fights and mindless violence.

Rabies

irlmarc wrote:

Did this not happen in some places England and as it turns out most people are home by 5 anyway???. It might be a good idea from the point of view that it would cut down on the 3am rush for food/taxi's which causes alot of fights and mindless violence.

That would be my thinking too.
Here in Auckland there is no problem getting a taxi after hours. Sometimes random taxi will pull up outside bars and clubs looking for people to take home
Problems start when everyone is kicked out at the same time. A staggered effect would work better in my opinion.

happy_acid_face

can't imagine that ever really working. if there was no time limit, i imagine they're would be alot of people drinking to there stomach's limit. and as we all know when that fills up, things get very messy.

Imposter

The initial adjustment phase would be messy but after that it would be fine imo. The initial adjustment would be a kind of natural selection

guildofevil

The fear of everyone being out all night, every night, if we weren't sent home for our own good, is just plain ridiculous. How come people aren't out every night at the moment?

You can drink 'till late enough in your local pub and to be realistic about it, there's nothing stopping people staying out all bloody night if they feel like it. If you want to keep drinking, there are always places you can go. Failing that, you could always drink at home.

I for one would not end up staying out all night and getting blathered. I have a job, a family and a life other than in the pub. If pubs stayed open all night, I might, on occasion stay out until 4 in the morning, but that would be very rare and would only happen if I could devote a significant portion of the next next day to sleeping.

The ridiculous, mandated pub closing times we have in this country are the single greatest causal factor of the binge drinking culture we have today.

Pubs are forced to close at a certain time and people end up quaffing drinks in a effort to beat the clock. This happens here, in the UK, in Scandinavia and in every other place people are treated like children and forced to go home early.

In places where pub closing times are not regulated, a staggered closing time naturally develops, with some places closing earlier than others, depending on the clientèle and their habits.

When I go out in France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, or wherever, I have a much more relaxed time when I go out. I can stay out as long as I like and there is no pressure to get all of my drinking done by a certain time. I also don't feel the need to stay in the pub just because it is still open. I leave when I want to go home and I actually find I drink less, even if I do stay out an hour later than I am allowed to in my local pub in Ireland. Go figure.

rubadub

It would lead to less trouble. Getting rid of a closing time, means there is no last orders. I know people who are on pints all night, then come closing time hit the shorts! the booze has still not taken effect and they are drinking 2 hours worth in 10minutes. Then hit the street at the same time and all are blacking out and causing trouble.

Think of weddings when you have resident bars, most people are eaing down, drinking water and then going to bed. If you were in a hotel with 24hr resident bar you would never see people saying "might go to bed now, better get a couple of treble vodkas into me"

happy_acid_face

its easy to say the novelty would wear off when you answer this topic with how you would expect yourself to act.

Every single night in town, without fail, you can be sure to find many who have drank themselves stupid, involved in violence because of drink or have overendulged to the point of vomit. If you get rid of closing times you just spread this over the night.

You say that people would still go home by four or five? Well what if closing times were just changed to four or five? I bet people would still be buying there triple vodka's or 3 pints at closing.
Unfortunatly, drinking has always been part of our culture.

People here have already said that they dont like being told when to stop drinking or that they're sick of having to buy a load of drink at last orders. That shows exactly why there has to be last orders. Why would people do this? Because they really enjoy drinking? Or because they the night has come to an end and they feel they aren't drunk enough?

Too many people drink to get drunk instead of knowing when to stop. Thats why Ireland is nowhere near ready for 24 hour bars

FlutterinBantam

And in my opinion never will!!!

guildofevil

happy_acid_face wrote:

Every single night in town, without fail, you can be sure to find many who have drank themselves stupid, involved in violence because of drink or have overendulged to the point of vomit.

So what does the current licensing law actually achieve? By your own admission it doesn't stop this sort of behaviour and, as I and others have pointed out, goes towards causing it.

happy_acid_face wrote:

If you get rid of closing times you just spread this over the night.

So, what you're saying is that it is better for all of the drunks to be kicked out into the street at once, swamping the available Garda presence with simultaneous incidents all over the place. Trying to get into the same taxis and arguing over the queue in the chipper as the rushed “Would you finish them up there now please!” drinks hit them hard.

I would prefer if people could drink at their own pace, without being rushed into chugging the last beer because the law says they have to get out.

I think it would be better if people who had over indulged came out of pubs in dribs and drabs over the night, encountered fewer other drunks, found shorter queues for taxis and food and were kept in line by a Garda presence which was not trying to deal with all of them at once.

happy_acid_face wrote:

You say that people would still go home by four or five? Well what if closing times were just changed to four or five?

That would go a long way to making matters better. As it is, when I go out on a Saturday night, I usually end up heading home while they are still serving. But if I want to stay out until four in the morning, why shouldn't I be able to?

happy_acid_face wrote:

I bet people would still be buying there triple vodka's or 3 pints at closing.

Actually, I don't think that would be the case at all. People don't do that in residents bars. Given open ended drinking people drink at their own pace, don't rush the last drink and head to bed when they want to. Why would it be different down the local pub?

happy_acid_face wrote:

Unfortunatly, drinking has always been part of our culture.

Don't drink at all then do we happy_acid_face? Drinking has always been a part of every European culture and many others too.

happy_acid_face wrote:

People here have already said that they dont like being told when to stop drinking or that they're sick of having to buy a load of drink at last orders.

Some people do this, but they are very much in the minority. Most of us are just forced to swallow back our last pint faster than we wanted to, because the law says it's time to get out of the pub. The same law will let me pay into a nightclub or some sleazy place on Leason street if I want to continue to drink, but I'm not allowed to stay where I am and finish my beer at my own pace.

happy_acid_face wrote:

That shows exactly why there has to be last orders. Why would people do this? Because they really enjoy drinking? Or because they the night has come to an end and they feel they aren't drunk enough?

No, you are wrong. The night has come to an artificial end and people feel hard done by. People don't like being told what to do. Then tend to resent and resist it. Hence, the closing time shenanigans you get today.

Some people drink to get drunk and no closing time arrangement is going to stop them doing that. Others are just trying to fit as much into what remains of the night as they can. What they actually want is another drink and another half hour or hour chatting and having a laugh with their friends. They are denied that, so they settle for what they can have, which is another drink, even if they don't have the time to enjoy it.

happy_acid_face wrote:

Too many people drink to get drunk instead of knowing when to stop. Thats why Ireland is nowhere near ready for 24 hour bars

So, no actual suggestions for improving matters then? I suppose it's easier just to blame “the Irish binge drinking culture”, say there is no way to make things better and look down your nose at “them” from the moral high ground.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

And in my opinion never will!!!

Hey FlutterinBantam, can I borrow your crystal ball? I'd love to be able to foresee how Irish culture will change and develop in the coming millennia, the way you can.

rubadub

happy_acid_face wrote:

You say that people would still go home by four or five? Well what if closing times were just changed to four or five? I bet people would still be buying there triple vodka's or 3 pints at closing.

I would imagine there would be some, but I imagine it would be fewer. But you are still talking about having closing times, whereas this post is about 24hr bars, eliminating the "last round culture". Sure a bar will close at some time but if there is still business to be had they will stay open.

I have gone to the odd early house after an all-nighter, most people are calming down a lot by that stage, too tired to keep going.

Licensing hours are forced upon all people, wrongly presuming everybody can have the privilege of working a 9-5 job. As though they should not be allowed to go for a quiet single drink after a hard days work with their colleagues, they cannot do this if their shift ends at 5am. Most other businesses can open at whatever hour they want, most are not since there is no business but you always get the odd chemist/newsagent/eatery open at "unsociable" hours.

If somebody leaves a pub crazy drunk at 5am they will not be let into another pub which happens to be open at 5am. Same goes for a pub at 5pm. We are talking about a licence to allow them to stay open, not a licence for allowing uncontrolled rampages in madhouses.

FlutterinBantam

guildofevil wrote:

I would prefer if people could drink at their own pace, without being rushed into chugging the last beer because the law says they have to get out.




That would go a long way to making matters better. As it is, when I go out on a Saturday night, I usually end up heading home while they are still serving. But if I want to stay out until four in the morning, why shouldn't I be able to?



Actually, I don't think that would be the case at all. People don't do that in residents bars. Given open ended drinking people drink at their own pace, don't rush the last drink and head to bed when they want to. Why would it be different down the local pub?



Don't drink at all then do we happy_acid_face? Drinking has always been a part of every European culture and many others too.



Some people do this, but they are very much in the minority. Most of us are just forced to swallow back our last pint faster than we wanted to, because the law says it's time to get out of the pub. The same law will let me pay into a nightclub or some sleazy place on Leason street if I want to continue to drink, but I'm not allowed to stay where I am and finish my beer at my own pace.



No, you are wrong. The night has come to an artificial end and people feel hard done by. People don't like being told what to do. Then tend to resent and resist it. Hence, the closing time shenanigans you get today.

Some people drink to get drunk and no closing time arrangement is going to stop them doing that. Others are just trying to fit as much into what remains of the night as they can. What they actually want is another drink and another half hour or hour chatting and having a laugh with their friends. They are denied that, so they settle for what they can have, which is another drink, even if they don't have the time to enjoy it.



So, no actual suggestions for improving matters then? I suppose it's easier just to blame “the Irish binge drinking culture”, say there is no way to make things better and look down your nose at “them” from the moral high ground.



Hey FlutterinBantam, can I borrow your crystal ball? I'd love to be able to foresee how Irish culture will change and develop in the coming millennia, the way you can.

No no no... sorry 'bout that but I have no crystal ball.

What I have though is a fairly pragmatic view of life and what I have seen in my relatively short existance ,is a drinking culture in this country unique , from MOST other countries.
Now more than ever,every celebration,from cradle to grave,sporting
or academic,religious or secular is accompanied by the almost obligatory piss up.People who cannot afford VHI,pension provision,mortgages,seem to have no trouble throwing up a supply of booze for every occasion sufficient to float a luxury liner,and look on an inability to provide such a boozefest as akin to abject failure.People are willing to expose themselves to major debt to fuel these boozefests.

So..sorry if the truth hurts some people,if some people thinks its looking down ones nose,it's not... It's saying it as it is,as it happens,in living colour,and no amount of dressing it up in any other clothes will disguise it.

happy_acid_face

since you took the time to give my responce such a detailed answer, i feel i must return the deed

First though, i'll give you a run down on a few statistics...

Alcohol abuse is rampant in Ireland. Irish people consume vast quantities of alcohol, above and beyond what is normal in Europe. In 2001 we drank 14.4 litres of pure alcohol per head of adult population, the second highest figure in the 25 EU member states. The equivalent figure in the United Kingdom was 8.5 litres, which is closer to the European norm.
As its stands to date we consume 125 litres of beer per capita, per year. The UK consumes under 98.

Alcohol consumption has increased by a staggering 40% in the ten years to 2006. This is unprecedented in Irish history, runs counter to the overall European trend and is unique in the world. The reasons for this increase are varied and include an increase in disposable income, increased laxity in licensing laws and the granting of licence extensions, lack of enforcement of existing licensing laws and restrictions and significant expenditure and marketing by the drinks industry, particularly to young people.

As it stands Ireland top alcohol spending per capita in the E.U. Spending three times as much as the second biggest spenders in the EU.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006077.shtml



As it stands Ireland spends in exess of €2.65 billion on alcohol related health problems

Current alcohol related trends cited in the Second Report of the STFA include;

* In a study of seven European countries, Ireland had the highest level of binge drinkers, with 58% of drinking occasions ending up in binge drinking among men and 30% among women.
* Alcohol related mortality has increased in line with the increases in alcohol consumption between 1992 and 2002, in particular alcohol specific chronic conditions e.g. dependency, abuse and psychosis (+61%) and acute conditions e.g. alcohol poisoning (+90%).
* Alcohol is estimated to be involved in 40% of road deaths and at least 30% of all road accidents each year in Ireland.
* Alcohol is the third most detrimental risk factor for European ill health and premature death, after only tobacco and high blood pressure.


Now i could go on we these various statistics on Ireland and its attitude to drinking but i think i've pretty much painted enough of the picture im portraying.

With all this in mind, think how 24 hours bars would affect the above problems?

What im trying to say is, i cant see how having 24 hour bars would help an ever growing problem in Ireland. I think there is much more important factors that would be effected by the availability of 24 hour opening hours than crowded taxi ranks and not having to rush my last drink.

I have no problem being inconvienienced with a closing time when it makes an impact on greater issues.

And just to straighten things out, im not some complainer who see's an opening to rant. I work in the drinks industry and love my job. I am passionate about various sorts of drinks and would regard myself as being quite knowledgable in the area's of beer, wine & spirits. Right now im enjoying a nice pint bottle of guinness after a long days work!

happy_acid_face

And by the way...

guildofevil wrote:

So, no actual suggestions for improving matters then? I suppose it's easier just to blame “the Irish binge drinking culture”, say there is no way to make things better and look down your nose at “them” from the moral high ground.

If i had an answer to the problems i'd be a millionaire. As far as looking down my nose goes, i don't think using fact in a reply really counts as "looking down on them". But maybe you should think aboutt looking down on "them" when you ignore major issues of alcohol abuse in Ireland in favour of not being told when to stop drinking.

rediguana

Imposter wrote:

The initial adjustment phase would be messy but after that it would be fine imo. The initial adjustment would be a kind of natural selection

This is what I think too ^^^

The people who felt they had to stay out all night every night once the bars stayed open would quickly lose their jobs, girlfriends, and health. After a few years then, most of this group would be in prison, mental asylums, drying-out clinics, or just at home cos their dole can't finance drinking in swanky bars. At that point, Dublin will be like Zurich and cafe culture will have arrived.

As for creating jobs (I forget who said it)??? I always think that's a dubious reason for doing anything. If I razed Athlone (my hometown) to the ground, the reconstruction would create many, many jobs. It's probably still not a good idea though.

rubadub

happy_acid_face wrote:

With all this in mind, think how 24 hours bars would affect the above problems?

I honestly think it could and think it would reduce drinking, I also have no crystal ball but can see why it could happen. You work in the trade your self so must witness the last order phenomemon yourself. I know people who go out at 7 and finish drinking at close, say 12.30. In the time between 12 & 1 they can put away more than the time between 7 & 12. Once people are pissed it is far easier to stomach drink, they hit double & treble spirits and go mental.

I do not see this occurance at house parties or resident bars where there is no closing time.

The graph you posted highlights how much money people are willing to piss away on a drug. But it really highlights how overpriced drink is here. You said Ireland were the second highest consumer yet nobody came close to our spending, who was the second highest consumer?
France consume more wine per head than us but the bar is about the same size on spending.

I always question figures from studies, especially when found by the country who appears bad. i.e. if you read any UK papers about drinking they portray themselves as one of the worst, seems countries are always at this since it makes more media grabbing news, like surveys on costs of living, they fiddle the figures to sell papers.

Alcohol consumption has increased by a staggering 40% in the ten years to 2006.

One reason omitted was a decrease in drug use, I know plenty of people who never drank much from about 18-25 as they were all on E. There are many factors including how the study is taken. Same goes for illegal drug use you see countries claiming their teens are the highest users, then find one country was polled in secret, while another was done in schools.

I am not denying we drink a lot, or have a serious problem, but I do think 24hr drinking would help alleviate it.

Right now im enjoying a nice pint bottle of guinness after a long days work!

Your lucky you don't work shift work or you could only do that at home, or illegally in the bar you work in.

guildofevil

happy_acid_face. The majority of your post is statistics about how bad situation vis alcohol is in Ireland. I don't dispute that. There is a very unhealthy attitude to alcohol among many people in our society.

One little fact you seem to have missed though is that the recent increase in alcohol consumption has been accompanied by a decrease in people going to pubs.

(This is something the publicans are blaming on the smoking ban, but the trend has been going on for a lot longer than that and they also raised their prices several times, in recent years, so I don't know who they think they are fooling).

What's going on there now? The fact is, that people are doing more of their drinking at home.

Where we seem to disagree is the affect pub closing time has on all this. You seem to be saying that if pubs were open later, people would drink more. So the only thing keeping our drinking down to its current epidemic levels is pub closing time? Can't you see there is something wrong with the logic here?

By that same logic, we should force restaurants to close early to help combat our growing obesity problem.

Mind you, we could let some restaurants stay open a few hours later. Ones with special licences. Ones with live bands, or something.

Oh and some fancy restaurants get to stay open late too. So you can get Fois Grais at 3Am, but you have to leave Eddy Rockets right now and no you can't have ten more minutes to finish your chicken tenders. The law say you have to get out.

And private “food clubs” could stay open as long as they like. Sports clubs could apply for a “food club” licence, then they could serve chips all night, but to members only.

Oh and you can eat as much and as late as you like at home, or in another private residence, as long as you buy it early and heat it up in the microwave.

Do you think a generation or two of this sort of nonsense would create an unhealthy attitude to food?

The current attitude to alcohol has been caused by our ridiculous, Byzantine system of pub, restaurant, and club licences (along with the variations on those themes).

24 Hour drinking already exists in Ireland. If you have an alcohol problem, the only way you will want for booze in Ireland is if you have no money.

The current pub closing times do nothing to alleviate the problem of alcohol abuse in Ireland. They create an unhealthy attitude to alcohol and cause problems all of their own.

Deregulation of pub closing time could only make things better. It cannot make them any worse.

happy_acid_face wrote:

But maybe you should think about looking down on "them" when you ignore major issues of alcohol abuse in Ireland in favour of not being told when to stop drinking.

And yet you still don't have anything constructive to say. You don't have any suggestion about how to improve matters, so you think we should continue with the solution that quite simply and obviously doesn't work. Brilliant.

I'm not ignoring the major issues, I'm just facing the fact that the the law as it stands makes things worse, not better.

FlutterinBantam It is not pragmatic to make sweeping statements about an entire people, using absolutes like “never”. Cultures change and evolve and, as you don't have a crystal ball and therefore don't know what Irish society will be like next year, next decade, next century, or next millennium, your statement is one you are quite simply not qualified to make.

cooperguy

There would be a messy initial phase and then things would even out. I was in London recently and it is completly different to Ireland since the 24hour drinking came in. There isnt a huge crowd all coming onto the streets at once which made a huge difference. My nights out over there naturally came to a close at about 4 in the morning and we went home without fighting through huge crowds or the downing of 2 or 3 pints before closing (which some of my friends have a habit of doing)

jester77

It would clearly be a good idea but can't see it happening.

When I lived in Ireland I drank quite a bit but this was squeezed into a very short time frame. When in a pub you know there's not much time left and people are usually keeping up with the fastest person in the round. Closing time approaches and people get a few extras at the bar (either going home or avoiding the silly prices that they will have to pay once they are in a club) that they then have to knock back. Then there is the stampede for food and taxis which usually coincides with the alcohol taking effect and the fights start.

As opposed to here in Germany. I can come home on a Friday evening, play a match or go to the gym, come home and do a few things around the house. It's usually 11 by then, head over to a friends for a few drinks and then off to the bar. No pressure as there is no closing time. Plus I've hardly drank any shorts since being here. You leave when you want, no crazy queues, easy to get food, easy to get a taxi, bus or train home and I've never seen a fight or even an argument in all my years here!

I think these short opening times in Ireland are directly influencing the binge drinking culture that currently exists there.

FlutterinBantam

[QUOTE=guildofevi






FlutterinBantam It is not pragmatic to make sweeping statements about an entire people, using absolutes like “never”. Cultures change and evolve and, as you don't have a crystal ball and therefore don't know what Irish society will be like next year, next decade, next century, or next millennium, your statement is one you are quite simply not qualified to make.[/QUOTE]

Sorry.. you are right

I am not a meteroligist, it was cold and windy last paddy's day, in fact it was cold and windy most paddy's days in the past,but of course I'm not qualified to predict this paddy's day...so JUUUUUUUUUlia... get out me shorts and sun block there ..good woman!!! We are goin to the beach

guildofevil

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Sorry.. you are right

I am not a meteroligist, it was cold and windy last paddy's day, in fact it was cold and windy most paddy's days in the past,but of course I'm not qualified to predict this paddy's day...so JUUUUUUUUUlia... get out me shorts and sun block there ..good woman!!! We are goin to the beach

It has rained every Paddy's day I can remember, so it will rain every Paddy's day from now on. There will never be a Paddy's day with sunshine, ever.

rubadub

jester77 wrote:

It would clearly be a good idea but can't see it happening.

People said the same about smoking bans. And other people have said how it IS working well in the UK who probably have the most similar drinking culture to ours than any other country.

The whole idea of drinking hours came about from the war, people were to be able to get up early work 9-5 producing machinery to help the war effort. Well the war is over and many people do not work 9-5.

Many publicans would not like longer hours, they love the fact they can pub idiots full of booze and then turf them out on the street for the cops and road sweepers to deal with. Selling more in a single hour than they could in 5 hours if there was open competition between pubs via opening hours.

FlutterinBantam

Would somebody kindly tell me why,if closing time is 0030,you feel the need to hammer 3 or 4 pints/shots/shorts into you between 0010 and 0100 when you don't want them???

Would someone tell me why do you have to keep up with the fastest drinker???

Would somebody tell me why we buy rounds.. why can't everyone buy their own and drink at their own pace??

FlutterinBantam

guildofevil wrote:

It has rained every Paddy's day I can remember, so it will rain every Paddy's day from now on. There will never be a Paddy's day with sunshine, ever.

No it won't but there is a good chance that it will if your opening statement is true.... Informed opinion ,we call it.Balance of probabilities,y'know, extrapolation.

GuanYin

Great idea, in the short run it would lower public disorder offences in the cities and in the long run it may even curb the binge drinking tendancies of the nation.

Mind you, Ireland might actually need to put some sort of public transport infrastructure in place first.....

JC 2K3

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would somebody kindly tell me why,if closing time is 0030,you feel the need to hammer 3 or 4 pints/shots/shorts into you between 0010 and 0100 when you don't want them???

Would someone tell me why do you have to keep up with the fastest drinker???

People aren't educated about alcohol enough. Programmes in schools simply portray alcohol as evil, yet these extremist, exaggerated facts simply have no effect on dismaying teenagers from drinking, and then when they experiment and realise getting drunk is really fun and nothing like their school programme told them they're not going to regard anything telling them not to drink too much very seriously and this attitude persists through their lives.

Anyway, back to the point, why hammer 3/4 pints/shots/shorts into yourself in under an hour or try to keep up with the fastest drinker? BECAUSE IT'S FUN. You get extra drunk really fast and you get the pleasure of being in a drunken state for the end of the night. Perhaps you may respond to this saying "Oh My God, that's so sad...", but read what I've written above, nobody cares about certain individuals with holier than thou attitudes tut tutting about the way they enjoy alcohol.

IMO 24 hour pubs would be simply a way to have much, much better nights out and would probably reduce the amount of disorder in cities at night, however I can't see it improving or disimproving the situation at all.

guildofevil

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would somebody kindly tell me why,if closing time is 0030,you feel the need to hammer 3 or 4 pints/shots/shorts into you between 0010 and 0100 when you don't want them???

People do this because they actually want the night to go on longer. They want to stay where they are and continue drinking with their friends, chatting and having a laugh. The actual alcohol consumed is only part of what they want, but it is the only part they can actually have, so they settle for that.

It's not a very good reason. It's not a very bright way to behave, but it is how a lot of people behave, given the situation as it stands.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would someone tell me why do you have to keep up with the fastest drinker???

The rounds system causes that phenomenon. It's a stupid way of doing things.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would somebody tell me why we buy rounds.. why can't everyone buy their own and drink at their own pace??

I suppose, at least partly, it's a social thing. It's the same as offering someone a cigarette or a cup of tea, if you are having one yourself.

The crowded Irish pub probably has to come in for some of the blame, too. The culture of rounds comes from taking turns to battle your way to and from the bar with the drinks. It would never have developed in a place where table service was the norm.

It works ok with two or three people who are drinking at the same pace anyway but it becomes a problem when more people are thrown into the mix.

Can't say I like the system much myself.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

No it won't but there is a good chance that it will if your opening statement is true.... Informed opinion ,we call it.Balance of probabilities,y'know, extrapolation.

You can't extrapolate the way a society is going to develop within the next few decades, let alone for the rest of time.

Irish culture today is very different from the way it was 50 years ago and has developed in ways which could not have been predicted then. It bears hardly any resemblance to the Irish culture of 500 years ago, none at all to that of 2000 years ago and yet you think you can extrapolate, on the balance of probabilities and form an informed opinion allowing you to make a sweeping statement, in absolute terms.

rubadub

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would somebody kindly tell me why,if closing time is 0030,you feel the need to hammer 3 or 4 pints/shots/shorts into you between 0010 and 0100 when you don't want them???

They do not NEED them, they do want them. Their brain is dulled and think they are not really that pissed, even thought there are probably 2-3pints that still have to take effect in their system. The more pissed you get the easier it is to down drink, especially spirits.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would someone tell me why do you have to keep up with the fastest drinker???

People start playing catch-up, young lads think it is "cool" to be able to drink lots, and that they are a "wuss" if they cannot. I see it as a waste of money, when I was young I prided myself on how little I had to drink to get into the same state. I know guys who would drink 12 pints and be bragging they still were not that pissed, I would be laughing saying I was in the same state after only 4. This particular guy used to sneak off to the chinese or chipper from the pub, ended up obese. I have seen girls throwing away drinks on the sly trying to keep up with mates.
I lost weight over the last year or so and now am again very pleased with how little I have to drink.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Would somebody tell me why we buy rounds.. why can't everyone buy their own and drink at their own pace??

As said it is social but is one of the biggest causes of drunkeness out there. A guy might come in later on and "join a round", he is playing catch up and lashing down pints, so the others must follow. The other problem is people drinking shorts or bottles and others drinking pints of strong lager. I always have one mate going on about me not drinking while he is drinking "loads", he cannot see nor get it into his head how a pint of strong german lager has over twice the alcohol as his bottle of heineken.

When I was younger I used to drink a lot on weeknights and would have to be OK the next morning for college. I used to hit the pub one hour after my mates, lash down 4-5pints in 1 hour, and then hit about 4-5pints of water from 10-12. The alcohol drank quick goes straight to you so you are merry in no time. It is still taking effect for the next few hours but you are getting fully hydrated and wake up fine, and stay in the same nicely buzzed state all night.

FlutterinBantam

Did I mention Irish culture... I said Irish drinking culture.

Just listening to reports that we are Numero uno in the EU binge drinking league.

Now pleeeeease don't blame me for that, thats what the survey says.

We have been there or thereabouts for as long as I care to remember.

Now would you for Chrissakes accept the FACTS and stop trying to be pedantic.

We are a nation of soaks.... thats it... it's true... stats show it .... get on with life!!!

JC 2K3

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We are a nation of soaks.... thats it... it's true... stats show it .... get on with life!!!

We're just people. There's nothing on our genes that prompts us to drink. Stats show that countires with more liberal alcohol laws have less problems, why not take a leaf out of their books?

FlutterinBantam

Our drinking CULTURE is bad.

We don't know when to stop.

McDowell tried to do something with the "Cafe Bar" stuff.

What happened... got ridden out of town.... saddled up and ridden over the cliff.

So don't patronise me with genes .

Dave!

I'd agree with the sentiment that it would be a messy transitional period, but in the long run it would be much better. If people want to drink themselves into a coma, they are currently able to. It's quite common to get locked before you go out, and/or to bring a naggin of vodka with you. If someone wants to finish the night passed out on the street, then they will do it, regardless of closing time. If there is no early closing time, then all those people who are knocking back the vodkas at least won't be leaving the pub at the same time, causing fights, overcrowding, etc. Whichever minister thought it was a good idea to have a mass exodus of drunk people at 2am or whatever, was a nut-job.

What's been Minister McDowell's response to 24-hr opening hours? I seem to remember it being put to him a few months ago.

FlutterinBantam

I fail to see the logic of your argument

"If people want to drink themselves into a coma they are able to"

Thats what they seem to want to do!!!!



If people drive cars around like madmen widening the road won't help.

You tackle the DRIVING CULTURE!!

Can people not understand its the DRINKING CULTURE that needs to be tackled ??

daiixi

You can easily drink 24/7 in Australia and tbh Australians don't drink as much as the Irish do.

GuanYin

It's funny, I lived in Germany and Belgium for a while and during this period, I saw alot of Irish come and go. When they arrived and joined the drinking set, they'd inisst on having pints and lashing them back.

Over the course of time they realised that (A) with the weather, the pints got warm before they were halfway through and (B) they were pissed and needing to leave by 2am when just about everyone else was getting into the night.

By the time they left, almost all of them were happy to sit drinking maybe 10 glasses of beer slowly over a 7-9 hour period.

The Irish infrastructure is designed for binge drinking. As we work longer hours and people need to eat/change and find public transport they don't get into bars til 9pm and then have 3-4 hours to enjoy themselves.

People are usually stressed by the time they get out and feel rushed. Hence you get binge culture where you don't feel you get the most out of the night unless you throw back the drinks.

I firmly believe that 24 hour bars would help change this.
The first thing needed would be to change the public transport and services industry to 24 hours services. Garda patrols at night would need to be streamlined too.

But if you can get people out, taking their time, enjoying themselves and relaxing, then you may see a shift away from binge drinking.

Personally, as someone who worked in and whose family owned a bar, I can't see publicans ever going for it. Irish drink culture is driven by the publicans and binge drinking is profitable.

Think about the bars in cities? Loud music, no seating, too hot. This is designed to make you drink faster and drink more. They don't want you sitting for hours sipping drinks.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

daiixi wrote:

You can easily drink 24/7 in Australia and tbh Australians don't drink as much as the Irish do.

You're looking for a fight there, just wait for an Auzzie to see that:p

FlutterinBantam

You can drink 24/7 anywhere!!!! No big frikken deal.

Just buy a few cans.

Jeesh is it any wonder we are in the state we are in!!

FlutterinBantam

psi wrote:

Personally, as someone who worked in and whose family owned a bar, I can't see publicans ever going for it. Irish drink culture is driven by the publicans and binge drinking is profitable.

Think about the bars in cities? Loud music, no seating, too hot. This is designed to make you drink faster and drink more. They don't want you sitting for hours sipping drinks.

Which is exactly why Mc Dowells system was rejected and exactly why we are at the top of the binge drinking league.

guildofevil

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Our drinking CULTURE is bad.
We don't know when to stop.
McDowell tried to do something with the "Cafe Bar" stuff.
What happened... got ridden out of town.... saddled up and ridden over the cliff.
So don't patronise me with genes .

I'm sorry, are you still against 24 hour drinking or not? If you are, can you please tell me why the current system is better than one which would allow pubs to close when they please rather than at a mandated time.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Did I mention Irish culture... I said Irish drinking culture.

Irish drinking culture, is a part of Irish culture and cultures are not static. Things change. Cultures change and you cannot predict how that will occur. You said we will never be ready for 24 hour opening. I said that you cannot say that, because you don't know what way our culture will change.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Just listening to reports that we are Numero uno in the EU binge drinking league.
Now pleeeeease don't blame me for that, thats what the survey says.

I didn't say anything about a survey. I didn't blame you for anything. I just sated the simple fact that you were making a statement that you quite simply cannot make with any certainty at all. It was a ridiculous, blanket statement which assumes that a specific part of Irish culture, i.e. our drinking culture, will remain unchanged for all time.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We have been there or thereabouts for as long as I care to remember.

Which doesn't mean it always will be that way.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Now would you for Chrissakes accept the FACTS and stop trying to be pedantic.

How am I denying facts here? I may seem a little pedantic here, but that is because I am trying to lay it out clearly for the hard of understanding.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

We are a nation of soaks.... thats it... it's true... stats show it .... get on with life!!!

And off he goes with the blanket statements again. Apparently we are all soaks now. Do you include yourself in that FlutterinBantam?



If you want to change Irish drinking culture there are several things you need to do.

1. Stop the useless practice of pressurising kids to make the pledge when they are 12. Very few keep it until they are 18 but most will hide the fact from their parents. Immediately, alcohol is something illicit and parents are deprived of the opportunity to introduce their children to it gradually, in a controlled environment, under their supervision. Instead of being taught a responsible attitude to alcohol, they end up experimenting and being introduced to binge drinking by their peers.

2. Deregulation of alcohol licences. Get rid of the current system of pub, club and restaurant licences. Anyone, be they a publican, a café owner, or a restaurateur can get a licence to sell alcohol, for a reasonable administrative fee. They all have to abide by the same regulations.

3. Allow alcohol to be sold at any time. Let pubs, cafés, shops, restaurants, etc. to open and close when they want and sell alcohol if they want.

FlutterinBantam

jaysus!!!

That was McDowells policy!!!

You know what happened to that.Vested interests blew it out of the water.

guildofevil

No. the café bar idea was a watered down version of what needs to be done and yes, vested interests, i.e. publicans killed it. McDowell made no attempt to get rid of pub closing times, which is a much greater cause of our binge drinking culture than our crowded pubs.

Publicans don't want deregulation because that would mean they would have competition and they like the little cartel they call the vintners federation. Most of them don't want 24 hour drinking either, because they are making a killing from our binge drinking culture.

Imagine how much money they make at last orders. People who don't want the night to end, force down more drink than is wise and are kicked out into the night. Then the the publican can just close the pub and count the cash, without having to deal with the drunken mess those people are going to be in, once those drinks hit them.

If they didn't have the excuse of pub closing laws to help them kick people out into the street, they might actually have to let people drink at their own pace. Those people might drink less, or of they don't, they might still be on the premises when they get out of control. All that and later nights? No. The publicans have it sweet, just the way it is.

So, FlutterinBantam, are you still against 24 hour drinking? If you are, can you please tell me why the current system is better than one which would allow pubs to close when they please rather than at a mandated time.

Bradidup

Like anything else that comes into this country, if it gets out of control it would be a disaster, the cops would have no rest, d&d around the clock, 24 hour stag parties, no sleep, no thanks....What about going in the oposite direction......Ie, bring in prohibition!!!!!!!

guildofevil

Bradidup wrote:

Like anything else that comes into this country, if it gets out of control it would be a disaster, the cops would have no rest, d&d around the clock, 24 hour stag parties, no sleep, no thanks....

The situation is already out of control, or hadn't you noticed? Previous posters have quoted lots of statistics to illustrate exactly how bad things are.

Where are all these extra drunks going to come from?

You can already drink as late as you like, if you are willing to accept cover charges and/or going to dodgy late night clubs, illegal lock ins, or takeaway, purchased earlier.

No sleep? So are you saying that people would stay out all night every night, just because they weren't sent home for their own good? Would you? I wouldn't.

How come most people don't go out every night as it is? I mean, have you ever looked into an average pub on a Tuesday night? I've been in queues that were more exciting.

People have jobs, families, lives, financial commitments. They will not loose all run of themselves and descend into instant alcoholism, just because they are allowed to stay in the pub longer than they used to be.

Bradidup wrote:

What about going in the oposite direction......Ie bring in prohibition!!!!!!!

Well that always works, doesn't it?

I mean the US had wonderful success with it, so us nice, law abiding Irish would just tow the line, just like they did.

Reasons why not:

1.Freedom of choice. If people want to drink it is their decision.

2.If you prohibit something you lose control over it. Illegal alcohol would be produced and distributed by criminals. There would be no excise duty, no quality control, no age restrictions, no closing time (ahem) and the Garda force would have to waste valuable resources investigating people, like me, brewing in their back yard for their own consumption.

3.Economic pressures. The prohibition of alcohol would destroy several industries, (brewing, tourism, etc.) which provide a lot of employment and help fuel the economy.

4.It would be political suicide to even attempt such a daft thing.

FlutterinBantam

Hello!!!! Guild I am not against 24 hour drinking,sure as we speak I am tanking back a few cans of Royal Dutch.

name of thread...24 hour bars..good/bad idea.

the reason I think its a bad idea is that we have a drink culture which would not make this work.

It works in other countries because the drink culture is much more sophisticated and enjoyment and relaxation is the key rather than horsing down as much as you can.

If you think that's a figment of my imagination get yer ass down to Downeys in Phibsboro and tell me if the atmosphere is gentle and relaxed!!!!

You go on about people trying to "force it down" before closing time.!!!!

Force it down!!!! for Chrissakes why would you want to force it down.

can you imagine the average Italian/Greek/Spaniard forcing down wine at the end of a meal.

I would love 24 hour drinking,but until the majority of our drinking population can be mature enough to handle that phenomenon,I think it's a bad idea.

Kell

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Now would you for Chrissakes accept the FACTS and stop trying to be pedantic.

Heres a fact. Everyone can pretty much get their hands on any drug they want to at any time they choose. So why doesnt everyone take e, hash, coke etc etc? Its called self regulation.

24hr opening times would be fantastic, a dream come true. I agree with all the statements about the desire to drink more going hand in hand with the actual desire of wanting to be more sociable. Irish people are very sociable folk. Lots of nations are noted by moodiness, snobbiness etc, but Ireland is noted for Nice, Sociable, Welcoming people and juice just greases up the cogs of socialising.

24hr openings would be self regulating too. There are always those who go out to get smashed, but there are also those who are regulated by the fact that the next day will be a complete and utter waste of time if they dont regulate what time they go home at.

K-

guildofevil

The drinking culture will not change until closing time is abolished. Our binge drinking culture is, in no small part, a result of this stupid set-up. If it continues, so will the associated behaviour.

I agree that 24 hour pub hours, on their own are not a complete solution, but they are an essential part of any workable plan to cut down on binge drinking, by changing Irish attitudes to alcohol. Breaking the vintners association monopoly by deregulating alcohol licences would also be necessary. With more competition, more variety would spring up. Maybe then I would actually be able to find a nice, civilised place to go out and relax.

How can a drink culture which is much more sophisticated and where enjoyment and relaxation are the key, develop with Irish pubs the way they are?

The current system is juts a way for publicans to empty their punters pockets in as short a time as possible and I resent it.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

can you imagine the average Italian/Greek/Spaniard forcing down wine at the end of a meal.

They don't have to. The waiter isn't screaming in their ear to get them to finish up and get out.

BrenC

Bad idea, I think things are good the way they are now...except for the prices.

Dave!

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I fail to see the logic of your argument

"If people want to drink themselves into a coma they are able to"

Thats what they seem to want to do!!!!



If people drive cars around like madmen widening the road won't help.

You tackle the DRIVING CULTURE!!

Can people not understand its the DRINKING CULTURE that needs to be tackled ??

You got any suggestions on how to do that?

How about we deal with the symptoms (eg. street violence) until we find a way to treat the disease.

Bradidup

You can all forget 24 hour bars in this country. Who is going to pay the extra staff, door bouncers around the clock, Djs, etc?

I work as a DJ in bars and know what goes on behind the sceenes, It takes up to two to three hours to clean up the mess in a busy pub and has to be done regularly or else the stagnent smell of stale beer remains for days.

In places like Ennis 1/3 of the pubs have gone bust since the smoking ban became inforced and thats because of a drop in patrons, you hardly think theres going to be a mad rush back to them if they keep their doors open 24 hours!!!