Simple Tournament Hand

Hectorjelly

Large buy in tournament. VILLAIN of the hand is an aggressive player from scandanvia.

Blinds: 2,000 - 4,000
with running ante of 400

Players remaining (from 480): 47
Players to be paid: 45


Hero, with 96,000 in chips, was on the button and all players passed to him. Holding A-K unsuited he raised to 16,000. The small blind passed and the Big Blind, with around 250,000 chips in the big blind, raised to 48,000.

Allin, call or fold?


(I didnt actually play this hand, just saw it posted and thought the advice given was interesting)

kpnuts

All In

RoundTower

all in. unless there's something silly you're not telling us like the average stack is 2 million or all the prizes are worth the same.

connie147

Im all in here everytime.In fact I probably would have been all-in first to give him the decision.

BobSloane

Don't think I could ever find a fold here. Its costing 10,000 a round and you have only 80k left behind.

Although this is probably very wrong thinking I might just call feeling that the BB would go all-in on the flop no matter what came - and I would call that bet no matter what came. But if he's defending his blind with something shaky you're giving him the chance to hit and then knock you out with a hand that would maybe have folded had you pushed.

All-in pre-flop is probably best.

Solksjaer

Surely its ALL IN or fold, calling is not on...anyway who wants to be just placed?, go for the race at worst. AK has got to be played here otherwise the BB stack size owns you. Really depends though if you want to win or just get placed....Im shipping this here every time.

Hectorjelly

Ok it was a stupid hand, i just thought some of the advice was really awful.

Mick McCloskey wrote:

In this situation, Nic should fold. It does not really matter what Johnny is holding here. If Nic re-raises all-in Johnny is going to call him anyway as he has already bet half of Nic's stack. If Nic just calls and misses the flop, he can't call a big bet from Johnny. Nic is not committed to the pot at this stage, while Johnny probably is. Johnny can well afford to call a re-raise and still have an above average chip stack.

In Nic's case, he can fold and still have a playable stack of 20 times the big blind. He has just posted his big blind and will have a full round of the table before he is in that position again. With two players to go to get into the prize money, Nic can afford to wait until two are eliminated before committing all his chips. With the chip average at this stage a little over 100,000, his remaining stack of 80,000 is not in bad shape and he can find a better opportunity to play. Always remember that A-K is just a drawing hand and is always an underdog to any pocket pair.

Marcel Luske wrote:

You should always, in a situation like this, stop the other players from trying to make a move on you. You did give him the opportunity and showed weakness! Move all-in next time and wish them good luck.

Playing tight is good, but protecting yourself by being the aggressor is with this hand the correct play. Don't forget, if you are going to walk into a big hand, you are not stopping this from happening by losing all your chips slowly. Fight, fight and fight! You will win more than you expect on the long run.

http://www.pokerineurope.com/pokerarticles/detail.php?articleid=976

phantom_lord

crazy. If he folds here his tournament is effectivey over, and shoving pf is just madness.

The Ace Face

why is tournie life over if he folds? 80k left is plenty of ammo.....if johnny has 22 up its a race..if he loses then is tournie is defo over!

me i'm allin.... but can see why u fold here too.

Lazare

The Ace Face wrote:

why is tournie life over if he folds? 80k left is plenty of ammo.....if johnny has 22 up its a race..if he loses then is tournie is defo over!

me i'm allin.... but can see why u fold here too.

IMO, you should never fold here.
This is one of those perfect opportunities that don't often come up, you find a hand on the button, it's folded to you, and you've an ultra aggressive BB.
Not pushing to the re-raise is horrendous.

Mick Mc Closkey's advice is disgusting, the fact that Johnny Lodden is commited gives even more reason for the push. Marcel Luske's advice is also terrible.

phantom_lord

The Ace Face wrote:

why is tournie life over if he folds? 80k left is plenty of ammo.....if johnny has 22 up its a race..if he loses then is tournie is defo over!

me i'm allin.... but can see why u fold here too.

mr aggressive scady's range is huge facing a button raise here, folding is really bad!

his tourny is pretty much over if he can't take down blinds by open raising ak on the button.

NeoSlicerZ

Most definately shove.

Hectorjelly

I just read andy wards blog, and he makes the really good point that this is a BUTTON raise! So its both more likely that lodden is totally bluffing, or is value raising a worse hand. Luskes isnt bad per se, its just insane

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lazare

Hectorjelly wrote:

I just read andy wards blog, and he makes the really good point that this is a BUTTON raise! So its both more likely that lodden is totally bluffing, or is value raising a worse hand.

LOL.
I can't believe this was even debated. As your title suggests, 'Simple Tournament hand'

Lazare

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The only explanation I can think of for that advice is the reality that, as professionals - they value highly the importance of cashing as opposed to gambling two outside the money and losing a buy - in - which would represent a significant negative in terms of time versus money earned / lost.


.

Maybe that is his mindset, if it is it's terrible. He should stick to cash.

I've played with Mick before, and funnily enough he played pretty aggro that time.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RoundTower

I think Mick's a decent player but for all we know some teenage intern writes the advice and they pay Mick a few quid to put his picture at the top of it.

Hectorjelly

I totally disagree with you lloyd, all his record speaks for is the fact that he plays a lot of tournaments.

Ive got a few points here; firstly im not getting at Mick personally here, ive played with him a good bit and he seems fine, but anyone who plays the tournament circuit regularly will end up with a lot of cashes if they play tight and have a bit of common sense, it doesnt make them any good. What im about to say probably applys far more to others than mick, but there is a tendancy to give a huge amount of credit to people who do well in a few tournaments when its really not due at all. A lot of the time I would guess it has to do with politeness as well as a lack of proper anaylsis. But a lot of it is going to be counter productive, for both parties.

delanec8

Hectorjelly wrote:

I totally disagree with you lloyd, all his record speaks for is the fact that he plays a lot of tournaments.

Ive got a few points here; firstly im not getting at Mick personally here, ive played with him a good bit and he seems fine, but anyone who plays the tournament circuit regularly will end up with a lot of cashes if they play tight and have a bit of common sense, it doesnt make them any good. What im about to say probably applys far more to others than mick, but there is a tendancy to give a huge amount of credit to people who do well in a few tournaments when its really not due at all. A lot of the time I would guess it has to do with politeness as well as a lack of proper anaylsis. But a lot of it is going to be counter productive, for both parties.

Victor Ramdin springs to mind. As does the ever popular expression "but how much did he lose?"

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hectorjelly

riverboatking from 2+2 said he played with victor in the commerce recently and he was the worst NL player he had ever encountered. The Straight hand on HSP was easily one of the funniest hands ive ever seen!

RoundTower

this is one of the great secrets of poker journalism.

MrPillowTalk

I think both their advice is terrible, against Lodden this is all in every time.

There are times I could find a fold in this spot btw, but the average stack would have to be less than 15 blinds and the raiser would have to have a range that excluded AJ AT and KQ.

Lol more I think about it Loddens range is just huge here, I actually think Luskes advice is as bad as Micks I mean if you push all in here you never get called by a hand that isnt at least racing, whereas if you just standard raise both the blinds can think your stealing with a wide range and subsequently raise you with an equally wide range meaning a lot of the time you get all in here in great shape.

StraddleFor6

If you've qualified online and have 30 quid to your name, a fold is probably best.

robinlacey

its amazing how little some famous poker players know about some of the games they play,between this and the barry greenstein check raise all in with AQ against lindgren on HSP i've been shocked a few times this week with some of the stuff big name players don't seem to understand.

this is obviously a great spot to get all in.

Hectorjelly

When greenstein moved all in there I thought you could sense how uncomfortable he was, then afterwards he said "lol donkaments" clearly showing he realised it was pretty donkish!

The C Kid

Slightly off-topic but the blog this was originally posted on Andy Ward's is probably the best blog around for simple effective poker strategy. He always highlights interesting theories and strategy and is not afraid to speak his mind.

I see he had a decent win in Tunica recently which was nice as he deserved a big win for that blog alone.

Ollieboy

I think the point Mick is making here is the importance of cashing. This is his job week in and out, so he places a lot of importances on cashing. After playing with him in two large buy-in events he allowed everyone to outplay him on the bubble, because he cant take the risks of been wrong. He's a excellant player and gets himself into these cashing positions a lot, but its also the reason he does't win bigger events and grinds it out on the local tour circuit.

To be honest, I think this is the live of 99% of poker pros on the tourney circuit, grinding it out to cash and than trying to make the final table and hope to cash big. Its horrible poker, but at the end of the week, they've got to go home and pay bills, as a lot of the other players are in full employment and make the most of there opportunity or there top level pro's only interested in winning.

If I had followed Micks advice above I'm sure I would have made the final table of the first UK poker event, I had the exact same hand on the bubble against a aggressive player who had reraise me twice before when I raise from the button, this time I push and he had KK, I was crippled, he went on to finish 2nd and cash for 50k sterling with my monster stack...lol. But I was annoyed, but with the history of the player and the same situation again, I would find it hard to get away from it again, but I could have called his reraise and got away from it on the flop.

Anyway, the hand describe above I would be pushing, as I'm always play to win, making the money is important, but at the early level of prize money isn't going to change my life.

Hectorjelly

The C Kid wrote:

Slightly off-topic but the blog this was originally posted on Andy Ward's is probably the best blog around for simple effective poker strategy. He always highlights interesting theories and strategy and is not afraid to speak his mind.

I see he had a decent win in Tunica recently which was nice as he deserved a big win for that blog alone.

yeah im a big fan of his blog

a147pro

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I think both their advice is terrible, against Lodden this is all in every time.

There are times I could find a fold in this spot btw, but the average stack would have to be less than 15 blinds and the raiser would have to have a range that excluded AJ AT and KQ.

Lol more I think about it Loddens range is just huge here, I actually think Luskes advice is as bad as Micks I mean if you push all in here you never get called by a hand that isnt at least racing, whereas if you just standard raise both the blinds can think your stealing with a wide range and subsequently raise you with an equally wide range meaning a lot of the time you get all in here in great shape.

Is it really that bad (Luske's)? I see your reasoning but if you just standard raise and they play back at you I presume you push? Therefore you're in as good or bad a position as you were if you open pushed. Actually worse because a lot of players won't call an open push with a low racing hand there, whereas once they reraise you they're committed.

I go for the open push, content myself with the blinds, take the coin flips or worse as they come, and hope for a lesser ace call.

A lot depends on whether you feel you can get off AK in this situation. It is live I suppose and if you know the player you might be able to get away from it if you feel they've KK AA. Online you rarely get away from this hand.

And like Straddlefor, if bottom pay out is as high as 1st prize in the tournies I usually play, fold is a real possibility.

phantom_lord

a147pro wrote:

Is it really that bad (Luske's)? I see your reasoning but if you just standard raise and they play back at you I presume you push? Therefore you're in as good or bad a position as you were if you open pushed. Actually worse because a lot of players won't call an open push with a low racing hand there, whereas once they reraise you they're committed.

I go for the open push, content myself with the blinds, take the coin flips or worse as they come, and hope for a lesser ace call.

A lot depends on whether you feel you can get off AK in this situation. It is live I suppose and if you know the player you might be able to get away from it if you feel they've KK AA. Online you rarely get away from this hand.

That's wrong! people will reraise you light alot, but they wont call an open push light! anyway, i can't be bothered to check, but i think he had like 20bbs+ so open shoving is madness.

When u get called you're always gonna be in bad shape, and you're risking too much for too little. and u miss out on when they try to bluff u.

And like Straddlefor, if bottom pay out is as high as 1st prize in the tournies I usually play, fold is a real possibility.

? that's only gonna be in sats?

Lazare

I'm probably just reiterating PL's point. Open pushing is horrible (Luske's advice). Why would anyone waste such an opportunity with such an aggro BB. AK is at the bottom of his calling range while he'll re raise and commit himself with any two.

Maybe RT is right about the teenage interns, I can't understand why seemingly top players are giving such bad advice.

a147pro

phantom_lord wrote:

That's wrong! people will reraise you light alot, but they wont call an open push light! anyway, i can't be bothered to check, but i think he had like 20bbs+ so open shoving is madness.

So do you fold if they reraise you? And given its a button raise they may well do. Also given its a button raise they may call your push lightish (AQ etc., which is your ideal situation). It'd be a bad call with a small pair, and you want to discourage this (by pushing).

phantom_lord wrote:

When u get called you're always gonna be in bad shape, and you're risking too much for too little. and u miss out on when they try to bluff u.

Like I said, if you're in bad shape youre going to fold to a reraise, no? How will you know they're not just restealing, assuming you don't know too much more about them? Online you rarely will. If you fold I prob agree with you. But if you proceed how do you play it?

Not worried about missing out when they bluff you cos if they bluff you you're prob 60-40 which is hardly fantastic. The whole point of the push is to avoid someone bluff out-drawing you or calling with a crap pair which holds up. You still get the value of people calling with loose aces, big kings..

The real Q is if you miss the flop and its bet, what do you do? Or earlier, if reraised as it was do you let it go? Once reraised like that you're basically all in cos you'll be unlikley to let it go on the flop, or rather, it'd be mad to commit that much of your stack if you were willing to let it go on the flop.

So going back to the start you either fold (to AA KK you hope), or fold to a coin flip (including a small pair that might have folded to a push) or fold to a bluff with an A or a K (big loss) or fold to a complete bluff with neither card (not so big loss).

Or push to avoid most of the negative situations except AA KK (then spend hours telling everyone how unlucky you were to run AK into AA on the bubble).

What about limping, then raising? They've a beter chance of getting away from whatever they have as they've less invested, and you still get some value.

Looking at the stack sizes again fold is prob the best option then, no?

phantom_lord wrote:

? that's only gonna be in sats?

dunno what you mean. If I'm getting 5 grand to fold for a half an hour, in lieu of getting involved in a blind fight with a bigger stack holding AK, fold.

robinlacey

a147pro-the range that will reraise you here is much,much wider than the range that will call a push for 20bbs here

folding to a reraise isn't a consideration at all here,when i raise i am hoping to induce a resteal and get all in

cooker3

Against someone as aggressive as Lodden, does anyone like calling the re-raise with the intention of calling any push he makes on the flop?

RoundTower

I bet the guy shoved and lost. So obviously he now knows where he went wrong and asked the pros to help him improve his play.

Hectorjelly

A147, your post is littered with nonsense. You are not being paid 5k to fold for half an hour, you are still in the running for the top prizes which dwarf the 5k in comparison. Looking at the stack sizes and then open folding is literally insane, and getting it all in as a 60/40 fav isnt as bad a spot as you make it out.

MrPillowTalk

When you button raise with a real hand like AK and Lodden with a huge stack reraises, you should be doing a little sex wee (c.Ianmc) before shoving in and expecting to be a favourite in a 50bb pot against one of the top players in the world.

I often wondered how players like Lodden and Antonius can keep raising every single pot and seem to never meet any resistance, now I know its because there are players who will consider opening the third best holdem hand and folding to a blind defence raise from a loon with a big stack. LMAO at anyone ever folding. LMAO at anyone pushing all in and not giving him any rope to hang himself.

Goodluck2me

How does this hand change id Mick is UTG and Lodden is UTG+2? Does everyone still push? or is it simply due to the position that it is easy push?

robinlacey

goodluck2me wrote:

How does this hand change id Mick is UTG and Lodden is UTG+2? Does everyone still push? or is it simply due to the position that it is easy push?

that would make things a lot tougher

Captain Tom

ive played with Mick 4 or 5 times so hearing this advice from him isnt very surprising.he's always solid but never exceptional.

this kind of advice is why he doesnt have more significant cashes imo.

a147pro

Hectorjelly wrote:

A147, your post is littered with nonsense. You are not being paid 5k to fold for half an hour, you are still in the running for the top prizes which dwarf the 5k in comparison. Looking at the stack sizes and then open folding is literally insane, and getting it all in as a 60/40 fav isnt as bad a spot as you make it out.

I wouldn't open fold, but there would be a feeling of sickness call-committing a very decent stack with AK that near the bubble, purely cos of the amount of times I've busted against AK to lesser hands who tried to knock me off the pot preflop. I realise that more often than not you're going to be over 50% favourite because of the reraises that you dominate and cos of the 60-40 shots, obviously this is a more profitable play over time, but if the money meant that much to me I would be reluctant to dance in that situation (unless I was in a position to play tournaments with that kind of prizemoney all the time). It comes down to how much you needs the cash, and right now I needs it a lot! TBH Hector what I'm really saying is if you came up to me, gave me €5g and said, fancy a 60-40 flip for an indeterminate amount more, at the moment I say no, and I don't think its madness to do that, by a long shot. I do accept if I was purporting to a professional poker player I'd be pretty foolish to turn down those odds.

My whole point is that if you open push you lessen that chance of being outdrawn by crap that will fold, without losing a huge amount of the better odds hands (the large aces or kings). people are saying you shouldn't open push cos you'll only get called by big hands. Then each of those people turn and say they're not folding to a reraise from those big hands anyway, so whats the difference? My approach just limits the chances of being outdrawn, while, admittedly, cutting out some of the times you get your money in a slight favourite.

I am not necessarily advocating this as the right approach, over time it isn't. But to say its madness isn't accurate.

Someone said AK is the 3rd best hand in hold 'em. Its not. Yet so many people, particularly those who play low buy-in live tournies, believe its the perfect excuse to go home and get the deeds of your house to put them on the table.

I remember watching the interviews post WSOP last year. Prahad came on and told a genuine story of managing to get away from Kings pre-flop, cos he correctly put the other guy on AA. Then some other moran came on telling us about his amazing fold of AK soooted before the flop as though it was the play of the century. The hand is overrated.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

lol moran

BigDragon

Hectorjelly wrote:

When greenstein moved all in there I thought you could sense how uncomfortable he was, then afterwards he said "lol donkaments" clearly showing he realised it was pretty donkish!

2+2ers offered him a charitable donation of $10k if he said ''lol donkaments'' on HSP.

He did, they paid up.

Solksjaer

in fairness to the poster (az 147pro) he is entitled to his opinion. His reasoning may be different to yours but to call him a moran is unfair. However I do totally disagree with him and this thead is baffling to me . There is only one play SURELY and it's as MR Pillow talk has mentioned above. The debate on it is bizarre.

AZ147. With all respect, I don't think you should play poker just to scrape into the lower regions of the cash IMO thats gearing yourself to lose, A lot of the time it's only money back. if you are broke, don't play.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

lol moran

Solksjaer

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If I'm honest, I would have to say that A147pro would probbaly be more upset is Reggie had called him a moron. Now, I'm not sure what a "moran" is - though I doubt it is a compliment having said that.

LOL, sometimes my spelling is moarnic. Although I wouldn't stick my head in a bin for a dictionary.

btw. what does probbaly mean....:D

Daithio

I think another thing that should be taken into account here is Nic Szeremata's image.

I mean, I think it's an autopush pretty much regardless of image, but if you take into account Nic's image it makes it even more of a no brainer if that is possible. He is as rocky as can be, and has absolutely no shame in folding to reraises. But, Lodden is probably aware that even rocks know they have to occassionally raise on the button to take down the blinds, so I think that Lodden could be reraising here with ANY two. In fact I think it's almost always the right play against somebody like Nic Szeremata. He'll raise on the button with a wide enough range (most aces, pocket pairs, KQ etc) but he'll AUTO fold anything less than AK/ TT down to a reraise. I mean even the fact that he had to ask for advice on what to do with AK in this spot should be evidence enough of this.

Open folding here is just so stupid there's no point in even explaining why.

I don't like open pushing at all, but if you are really really concerned about just cashing I think I prefer it to folding, but I still think it's pretty awful.

Play it as played but autojam over the top of Lodden's raise as everyone else has said.

And cooker I don't think there's any need to slowplay it and call any bet on the flop. If you push here you are 100% getting called by any two.