So...how does one leave the Catholic Church

FairStranger

As in the title, a simple question. How exactly does one leave the Catholic Church? I'm sort of at a loss as to how to proceed.

Owen

First post, hope yer not a trollin'!

FairStranger

ned78 wrote:

First post, hope yer not a trollin'!

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with its beliefs. "Excommunication" was the term he used, but I'm pretty sure that Excommunication is not a voluntary act.

This is the only place I could think of to ask the question.

Not really sure how I can prove I'm not a troll.

Scofflaw

FairStranger wrote:

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with it's beliefs. 2Excommunication" was the term he used, but I'm pretty sure that Excommunication is not a voluntary act.

This is the only place I could think of to ask the question.

Not really sure how I can prove I'm not a troll.

It is very difficult to leave the Catholic Church. There's a discussion on this somewhere in this forum - I'll have a quick dig. Technically, even if your excommunicate, you haven't left the Church - you are just being denied its sacraments. I'm excommunicate on about five counts, but I'm still technically a Catholic.

Here's the thread.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FairStranger

Scofflaw wrote:

It is very difficult to leave the Catholic Church. There's a discussion on this somewhere in this forum - I'll have a quick dig. Technically, even if your excommunicate, you haven't left the Church - you are just being denied its sacraments. I'm excommunicate on about five counts, but I'm still technically a Catholic.



cordially,
Scofflaw

Ah thanks. Well it's a start. I'd appreciate any info.

Khannie

The catholic church will always consider you catholic if you have been confirmed. I think that's the end game.

At the end of the day though, it doesn't really matter what they think...I mean....if a muslim came up to you and told you that you were muslim...well...there's no difference really.

Scofflaw

Sorry - see edited reply. This is the thread.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sangre

FairStranger wrote:

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with its beliefs. "Excommunication" was the term he used, but I'm pretty sure that Excommunication is not a voluntary act.

This is the only place I could think of to ask the question.

Not really sure how I can prove I'm not a troll.

How is it hypocritical?

Did you ask to me baptised?

Zillah

Oh dear me.

Ok,
Step 1: Decide you're not a Catholic any more.
Step 2: Realise you, as a non-Catholic, don't give a flying toss what the Pope says.

Dades

FairStranger wrote:

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with its beliefs. "Excommunication" was the term he used, but I'm pretty sure that Excommunication is not a voluntary act.

Unless you have a direct debit set up with Rome, I think your friend is overreacting. I assume you ticked "no religion" on the census last year - which takes you out of official Irish stats (and into Bertie's "aggressive secularism" grouping of course).

FairStranger wrote:

This is the only place I could think of to ask the question.

And I hope it was answered in this or the linked thread.

Zombrex

FairStranger wrote:

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with its beliefs.

Just tell your friend that you don't ever remember joining the Catholic Church in the first place:)

Prof Richard Dawkins would be up in arms over this, not your post but the idea that you have to leave a religion that you were signed up for by your parents. He says there is no such thing as a Christian child simply children of Christian parents, since no child, especially one of 8 or 9 years, is capable of fully understanding the nature of the religion they are signed up for.

Anything your parents did for you when you are a child should be considered just that, something your parents did. You shouldn't have any responsibility for leaving the Catholic church since you never choose to join the Catholic church.

Unless of you course you were baptised when you were like 32. Then you are on your own

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

Anything your parents did for you when you are a child should be considered just that, something your parents did. You shouldn't have any responsibility for leaving the Catholic church since you never choose to join the Catholic church.

Nail on the Head. You did not choose to become a catholic, as a minor your parents decided for you. As an adult, you can decide for yourself. As the Atheist pointed out, it would be good to remember to tick "no religion" on the census next time it comes around, if you have not already done so.

FairStranger

Thanks for the responses folks. I do agree that it's simply a matter of deciding to not be a catholic anymore, but I would also like to go through a formal separation process, if such is possible.

Thanks for the link Scofflaw, I shall read it post haste.

robindch

...I think the other thread said it, but you should be able to request a letter from your local PP saying that you're no longer a member of the catholic church.

Must do it myself sometime...

DinoBot

FairStranger wrote:

No. I was just involved in a debate with a catholic friend who pointed out the hypocrisy of my not actually leaving the church despite disagreeing with its beliefs. "Excommunication" was the term he used, but I'm pretty sure that Excommunication is not a voluntary act.

This is very common in my experience. When I stated I was no longer a catholic and my children would not be brought up catholic the response was much the same. That because I was confirmed i was therefore catholic forever.

I simply point out how stupid that statement was because at the very basic level you have to believe in god. :rolleyes:

Esmereldina

Zillah wrote:

Oh dear me.

Ok,
Step 1: Decide you're not a Catholic any more.
Step 2: Realise you, as a non-Catholic, don't give a flying toss what the Pope says.

I think this would be my general approach to the whole deal too.

Though as this means we would still be counted officially as members of the RC church in eyes of said church, I have heard that statistics such as these are apparently used to justify and to work out details of things such as state funding for religious education etc.
Annoying, but hardly one's own fault.
(I don't know how exactly this works out though. But actually :rolleyes: thinks out loud: would the statistics from the census be used for those purposes instead? Must check sources...)

Scofflaw

Esmereldina wrote:

I think this would be my general approach to the whole deal too.

Though as this means we would still be counted officially as members of the RC church in eyes of said church, I have heard that statistics such as these are apparently used to justify and to work out details of things such as state funding for religious education etc.
Annoying, but hardly one's own fault.
(I don't know how exactly this works out though. But actually :rolleyes: thinks out loud: would the statistics from the census be used for those purposes instead? Must check sources...)

As far as I know, it's the census statistics. That's why I was so annoyed with people who "stood on principle" and didn't put Atheist down on the census "because it's not a religion".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Esmereldina wrote:

would the statistics from the census be used for those purposes instead? Must check sources...)

I imagine the government wouldn't base funding on numbers providing by the very religion that is seeking the funding

"Uh, yes, we have 9.4 million Catholic children in Ireland who need us to educate them..."

Talliesin

Khannie wrote:

The catholic church will always consider you catholic if you have been confirmed. I think that's the end game.

No they won't.

They won't if you formerly leave, which can be done either by contacting the bishop or by joining another religion if the initiation to that religion is performed in public.

Indeed these requirements are not religious requirements for the Catholic Church to consider you no longer Catholic, but rather canon law requirements for the Catholic Church to know that you are no longer Catholic.

Scofflaw wrote:

As far as I know, it's the census statistics. That's why I was so annoyed with people who "stood on principle" and didn't put Atheist down on the census "because it's not a religion".

I understood the objection to be more one that it doesn't matter what religion one is or is not and the government shouldn't care.
The biggest incentive to a more secular approach though is the number of people that get lumped into "other" in summaries of religious views. The larger the number of people that the government can't second-guess about, the bigger their incentive to just promote true freedom of belief by keeping their nose out of it.

Esmereldina

Talliesin wrote:

No they won't.

They won't if you formerly leave, which can be done either by contacting the bishop or by joining another religion if the initiation to that religion is performed in public.

As far as I know though, the problem is that you can leave the Church to join another religion, and this is respected, but as atheism is not recognised as such (and isn't of course, a religion...) it doesn't really count as a reason in the eyes of the Church. I think that you really have to write to them convincing them of how you really reject their beliefs of the Church. I know someone who did this, and it worked. He now proudly displays his excommunication letter but I personally couldn't really be bothered.

Esmereldina

Scofflaw wrote:

As far as I know, it's the census statistics. That's why I was so annoyed with people who "stood on principle" and didn't put Atheist down on the census "because it's not a religion".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, this would make more sense... I heard before that the Church's own statistics counted for something, but since the Irish government does at least pretend (sometimes) to be an enlightened, (kind of) secular one, I imagine they wouldn't really be able to form government policy on them.

Talliesin

Esmereldina wrote:

As far as I know though, the problem is that you can leave the Church to join another religion, and this is respected, but as atheism is not recognised as such

The difference is merely one of evidence.

If you join a religion through a public ceremony with public records (such as the Catholic Church itself does), then there is evidence that you have done so. Hence Canon lawyers can easily determine that you have left the Church.

If you do not go on to follow another religion (you are Agnostic), believe in religious views that are not part of any religious practice (e.g. Atheism), believe in religious views that do not require any formal conversion (e.g. Buddhism) or join a religion which does have a ritual for joining but does not carry out that ritual in public (e.g. Wicca) then you have left the Catholic Church but cannot point to any public records of a public ceremony then Canon lawyers do not have evidence of this. So you've left, but they don't know you've left.

Public proclamations of Atheism can sometimes be taken as such evidence, but they would have to be examined to differentiate someone having clearly left the Church from a believer having a moment of doubt or falsely proclaiming a belief they did not genuinely hold (which would make you a Catholic who has committed a sin, not an Atheist).

magicbastarder

robindch wrote:

...I think the other thread said it, but you should be able to request a letter from your local PP saying that you're no longer a member of the catholic church.

Must do it myself sometime...

why bother?

does the catholic church rule that you can't be a catholic if you're a member of another religion? if so, set one up.

Tar.Aldarion

Step 1: Decide you're not a Catholic any more.
Step 2: Realise you, as a non-Catholic, don't give a flying toss what the Pope says.
Step3: Death.
.
.
.
.
.
Step15: Profit!

Dades

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Step15: Profit!

Is there something you alatrists aren't telling us?

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

Is there something you alatrists aren't telling us?

If there was, we wouldn't tell you, now would we? If we told anyone, we'd tell the creationists, since they wouldn't understand it, and couldn't accept it anyway...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

The Atheist wrote:

I assume you ticked "no religion" on the census last year - which takes you out of official Irish stats (and into Bertie's "aggressive secularism" grouping of course).

Will "aggressive secularist" be a category in the next census? It sounds kind of fun.

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

Will "aggressive secularist" be a category in the next census? It sounds kind of fun.

Ooh. Write-in campaign!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

Scofflaw wrote:

Ooh. Write-in campaign!

Letters must be written in red ink, and stained with bodily fluids, and must under no circumstances have a big picture of St Patrick on the stamp.

Tar.Aldarion

When do you want me to pick you up for the secret alatrist treasurer assosiation nominations(S.A.T.A.N.) Scofflaw?
We hope to have more profit than ever this year.

spurious

There is actually an official procedure under Canon Law to do this. It involves writing to the bishop. |I can't remember the details just now, but they have to officially respond to your letter.