Initial IAA Committee

N.O.I.P.

In the light of the recent media attention regarding Airsoft devices and the sport in general we feel the need for a representative body for the hobby has never been so urgent.

With this in mind, we have taken it upon ourselves to establish an initial committee on an ad-hoc and temporary basis with the intent of providing the frame work for a permanent association to be built.

The members of this committee have ratified and agreed to abide by the constitution indicated in the attached document.

The members of the provisional committee are as follows;

Chair Person – Oisin (O1s1n)
Vice Chair – Ronan (Hivemind187)
Secretary – David (N.O.I.P.)
Public relations Officer – Dave (DaveMcG)

Two special members of the committee will be

Paul (Nonex)
Alan (Spitfire)

It is our initial aim to create a roster of members whose views and interests can be presented to both the media and other interested groups be they Government or business (ie owners of sites, equipment suppliers) related.

Once the organization is properly established, these positions will be left open to vote. Each member will be entitled to cast one. This will take place at a designated venue and not electronically.

Membership will be €50 per annum. €40 will cover insurance, the remaining €10 will be for administrative costs. It will be open to anyone aged 16 and over. To make inquiries regarding membership please contact David (NOIP) by PM over boards until further notice.

Sparks

Just to repeat an earlier point, make sure everyone knows from day one that the IAA's current status as a private club (because that's what it is) is temporary. Get procedures and rules codified and sorted out as quickly as practicable and then change status to a company limited by guarantee - you do not want a private club as your NGB, believe me, because nobody can enforce even the constitution on a private club.

Dave!

Lads, I appreciate ye putting me on the committe, but I don't fancy bein the PRO! (I was just intending on lookin after the website). And I didn't ratify or agree to the constitution! I don't have a problem with the constitution (so ye can take it now as a yea vote), but just wanted to make the point that I wasn't even at the meeting.

Skatedude

You may want to look into changing it to a non profit organistion instead of a limited company, there are some benifits but you would have to check it out,
Directors in a limited company can still have liability.
Also(if the law hasnt changed) non profit organisations dont have to pay for planning applications and its often easier to get grant aid

Sparks

Skatedude, that's why I said company limited by guarantee - the liability of each director can be limited to a nominal amount (it's €1 for the National Target Shooting Association for example). And a limited company can be a non-profit organisation, and can apply for charitable status.

padmundo

I know you've mentioned it above but you may want to add some paragraphs to the contitution in relation to the electing of directors and holding of agms etc.

Hivemind187

ALL of this is temporary right now and there are still adjustments to be made. Right now we are simply trying to get the framework in place which will let us build the IAA into a credible and viable association.

Please note "association" not club or limited company - as in we would encourage people to create there own teams and clubs and affiliate under the umbrella association.

Sparks

Please note "association" not club or limited company

Please note "National Target Shooting Association limited" - as in, the two are not mutually exclusive, and the structure provided by the latter gives greater protection to those belonging to the former.

Example; suppose NOIP (sorry, need an example! ) decides to sell off all IAA assets and spend the money on beer. What do the members do then? As a private club, there is no body to which the members can turn to seek to have the sale halted, reversed, or the proceeds refunded to the association.

A limited company is merely a legal structure that provides access to the legal framework in this country.

BTW, I would also strongly, strongly recommend you contact Sarah O'Connor in the Federation for Irish Sport, and discuss affiliation and recognition with her, and also discuss working the Just Sport Ireland sports arbitration body into your constitution.

Fiach Dubh

Sparks wrote:

BTW, I would also strongly, strongly recommend you contact Sarah O'Connor in the Federation for Irish Sport, and discuss affiliation and recognition with her, and also discuss working the Just Sport Ireland sports arbitration body into your constitution.

Sarah O'Connor?

padmundo

hmmm amt hardballer and scope..... perhaps.... perhaps....

Hivemind187

Thanks Sparks. I have just emailed Ms O'Connor in relation to this seeking her advice.

liamo333

N.O.I.P. wrote:

It will be open to anyone aged 16 and over.

N.O.I.P please reconsider this, mabey instead of setting an age limit you could do one or two trial skirmishes instead? Just a suggestion.

Hivemind187

liamo333 wrote:

N.O.I.P please reconsider this, mabey instead of setting an age limit you could do one or two trial skirmishes instead? Just a suggestion.

Please understand that the 16 years age limit is set for membership in the IAA not for participation at venues. The IAA does not and will not dictate practice to venues.

The reason we are setting he age limit at 16 years for membership is to do with a number of factors, not the least of which being the public image of the game, insurance, age of consent under legal definition. It was not an easy decision to come to but it is one that has been made in the best interests of the sport.

liamo333

Thats fair enough as long as i get to go airsofting. And it means i dont have to pay E90 for another year LOL

N.O.I.P.

E90? membership is only 50, E40 for insurance and E10 for administration costs etc

Oh yeah

suppose NOIP (sorry, need an example! ) decides to sell off all IAA assets and spend the money on beer

That was a private conversation sparks

Evolute

Looks good happy to see more headway being made on this and look forward to seeing more .

MaxForce

Fiach Dubh wrote:

Sarah O'Connor?

NAW that was Sarah Connors.:p

Says he who watched Terminator a dozen times.:D

This is all great. After that radio show last night we need some representation.

o1s1n

MaxForce wrote:

NAW that was Sarah Connors.:p

Says he who watched Terminator a dozen times.:D

This is all great. After that radio show last night we need some representation.

Actually it's Sarah Connor. No "S".

So there

Good to see there was a positive outcome from that little meeting anyway. Hopefully there'll be quite a few more at the next one.

MaxForce

I stand corrected:D

ED E

I'm 16 in march so I might join.

E50 seems a little dear, and I know what insurance is like.

If you could get a roster of names of paying members it would give you a decent amount of power.

Keep up the good work

o1s1n

€50 is expensive?
€40 out of that is for YOUR insurance. It doesn't go to the I.A.A. All they get out of that to cover the costs of everything else is €10 per person.

Remember, all the people involved in this are doing it for free.

Miscreant

So, where do I sign for membership?

N.O.I.P.

So, where do I sign for membership?

Yay!!!!!

For the moment you can PM me your details as we are still working on application forms etc

Ample Free ...?

What sort of details?

name, age, penis lenght, cup size (for all the female airsofters)
Just to clarify what is and isn't needed.

CrazyRabbit

We'll need a treasurer as well.

And no, that does not mean I'm volunteering. I'm not great with financial stuff.

N.O.I.P.

CrazyRabbit wrote:

We'll need a treasurer as well.

And no, that does not mean I'm volunteering. I'm not great with financial stuff.

We? What do you mean we I haven't seen any PMs from you yet mister I don't want to support the IAA.

I'm acting as the treasurer for the moment but as soon as we can find somebody who can count past 10 they are hired

Spitfire666

****, i can only get to 8

N.O.I.P.

Over qualified for the Gardai then

Spitfire666

did you get my PM about the insurance?

N.O.I.P.

Yup both of them but I can't give out any details yet. I have to speak to them again and clarify everything

Spitfire666

Grand, as soon as you have them will you send me whatever you know. thatnks.

Dave!

Can ye clarify some things for me pleeease?

Go over again what the purpose of IAA is! lol. It's kinda vague in my mind... or maybe I'm just not understanding it fully. We're supposed to be kinda an umbrella organisation that will look after everything airsoft related, in the Rep of Ireland, I gather.
So if say a skirmish site opens up, HRTA for example. Do they register with us? Are we kinda looking for recognition as the governing body of airsoft in Ireland? At the moment there's no obligation for any skirmish sites to register with us but I gather that's the ultimate aim.

And then individuals... they register with us, but what purpose will that serve for them? It gives them private health insurance, but is there any other benefit? Maybe a way of encouraging people to join IAA is to liaise with HRTA and have a €5 discount for people who have IAA membership cards (which I'm sure are being designed at the moment! ), in exchange for... something. Advertising on the IAA site I suppose. And any other skirmish sites that open should do the same,

(i) register with us,
(ii) provide a discount for members,
(iii) and get free advertising, as well as recognition from the soon-to-be governing body

Anyways back to my questions... the benefit for members is health insurance, and possible discounts, as well as I suppose a rock solid 'good reason' (or whatever the legalese is) for transporting guns should a Garda ask you.
But for the IAA, what is the idea of registering people? Is it to add a framework to airsoft in Ireland, and keep track of everything, thus formalising it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just wanna clarify some things before I start writing anything else for the site.

Cheers

A final thing, will we be taking members online through the site or will they need to fill out a written application form? Anybody actually working on the application form?

edit:

Also are we gonna try and standardize the rules, ie. the sites have to agree to our rules to be recognised? I'd say it'd be better to let them make their own rules BUT to kinda cover ourselves we should have them agree that for example some form of eye protection must always be used, and that there is a safe zone.

here.from.day.1

Ample Free Coal Bag wrote:

penis lenght

I dont like the sound of that.

Ample Free ...?

here.from.a.long.day.of.observing.Alice wrote:

I dont like the sound of that.

Today kids it's show and tell.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

How can that not be good?
Or am I on the wrong forum?;)

Hivemind187

Ample Free ...? wrote:

Today kids it's show and tell.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

How can that not be good?
Or am I on the wrong forum?;)

Amplefree ... if you start sending out information about the length of your ankle-spanker it will be considered as sexual harassment and complaints will be made.

CrazyRabbit

N.O.I.P. wrote:

We? What do you mean we I haven't seen any PMs from you yet mister I don't want to support the IAA.

I'm acting as the treasurer for the moment but as soon as we can find somebody who can count past 10 they are hired

I've been offline for most the last week. And financially I'm totally drained at the moment due to bike repairs & getting taxi's to work & back. And to top it all off, my landlord is selling up the block of appartments and I have to find somewhere else to live. So, sending you a PM with information that you probably already know about me, is not exactly my highest priority at the moment.

Hivemind187

CrazyRabbit wrote:

I've been offline for most the last week. And financially I'm totally drained at the moment due to bike repairs & getting taxi's to work & back. And to top it all off, my landlord is selling up the block of appartments and I have to find somewhere else to live. So, sending you a PM with information that you probably already know about me, is not exactly my highest priority at the moment.

But it doesnt exactly take a long time.

Sorry for whatever troubles you have but honestly, 2 minutes and you are sorted.

N.O.I.P.

DaveMcG wrote:

Can ye clarify some things for me pleeease?

Go over again what the purpose of IAA is! lol. It's kinda vague in my mind... or maybe I'm just not understanding it fully. We're supposed to be kinda an umbrella organisation that will look after everything airsoft related, in the Rep of Ireland, I gather.
So if say a skirmish site opens up, HRTA for example. Do they register with us? Are we kinda looking for recognition as the governing body of airsoft in Ireland? At the moment there's no obligation for any skirmish sites to register with us but I gather that's the ultimate aim.

At the moment the aim of the IAA is to provide a voice for Airsoft players in Ireland, to promote their interests to and provide a platform for discussion with interested parties be they government business or concerned parents groups.

While we feel that Airsoft retailers and site owners should be a member of an organisation and held to a standardised code of conduct we feel that this group should be a seperate entity to a players representative association (the IAA)

And then individuals... they register with us, but what purpose will that serve for them? It gives them private health insurance, but is there any other benefit? Maybe a way of encouraging people to join IAA is to liaise with HRTA and have a €5 discount for people who have IAA membership cards (which I'm sure are being designed at the moment! ), in exchange for... something. Advertising on the IAA site I suppose. And any other skirmish sites that open should do the same,

(i) register with us,
(ii) provide a discount for members,
(iii) and get free advertising, as well as recognition from the soon-to-be governing body

Once a player registers with the IAA they are joining a community of airsofters who have voluntarilly agreed to be governed by the rules set out in our constitution. In this way they are helping to ensure that should a time come when the powers that be feel that airsoft needs further legislation, there will already exist a large formalised body of self regulating players who can then petition the government to ensure that any proposed changes are in line with the regulations we have imposed upon ourselves.

Anyways back to my questions... the benefit for members is health insurance, and possible discounts, as well as I suppose a rock solid 'good reason' (or whatever the legalese is) for transporting guns should a Garda ask you.
But for the IAA, what is the idea of registering people? Is it to add a framework to airsoft in Ireland, and keep track of everything, thus formalising it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just wanna clarify some things before I start writing anything else for the site.

In a word yes

Cheers

A final thing, will we be taking members online through the site or will they need to fill out a written application form? Anybody actually working on the application form?

For the moment we are just working through emails and PMs but at some point a copy of the membership form should be available for download on the site. I'll have a membership form made up soon and I will be sending it out to everyone who has pm'ed me so far. I will also be bringing hard copies to every game that I attend.

edit:

Also are we gonna try and standardize the rules, ie. the sites have to agree to our rules to be recognised? I'd say it'd be better to let them make their own rules BUT to kinda cover ourselves we should have them agree that for example some form of eye protection must always be used, and that there is a safe zone.

As is laid out in the constitution site are free to create their own rules but IAA members will abide by pre-approved safety measures should the rules of the site be inadequate

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote:

But it doesnt exactly take a long time.

Sorry for whatever troubles you have but honestly, 2 minutes and you are sorted.

Dave and I work in the same building. I just seemed a bit pointless PM'ing someone I walk past a dozen times a day.

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Just to repeat an earlier point, make sure everyone knows from day one that the IAA's current status as a private club (because that's what it is) is temporary. Get procedures and rules codified and sorted out as quickly as practicable and then change status to a company limited by guarantee - you do not want a private club as your NGB, believe me, because nobody can enforce even the constitution on a private club.

On that point, it took me a bit to find it, but try reading this:

How to structure your sports club/organisation

3 November 2005

Introduction

A common question for clubs, events, and governing bodies at all levels of sport is what is the best legal structure to use - club or company? In this article we take a practical look at the pros and cons of the most likely options for your club or governing body.

1. Unincorporated Association

A. What Is It?

● A group of individuals coming together to carry out a mutual activity, in common language a club. The group usually draws up a set of rules to regulate the relationship between the members and will usually provide for a committee to run the club’s affairs. An unincorporated association is the most common structure for sports clubs as it is the simplest and most informal way to establish an organisation. Put simply, any sports group or club which is not a company is an unincorporated association, whether its members are aware of it or not!

B. Advantages:

● Informality: Comes into being simply as a result of a mutual decision on the part of its members to form a club.

● Simplicity: No need to file or publish accounts or returns. Legal formalities and administrative costs are kept to a minimum although it is a good idea to have at least some rules and regulations set out in writing.

● Privacy: The rules and accounts of unincorporated associations are not a matter of public record, allowing for privacy in the club’s affairs.

C. Disadvantages:

● The club has no separate legal personality from members.

(i) No limited liability. The members will be personally liable for any liability of the club not met by its assets. Therefore caution should be exercised in taking on any onerous debts.

(ii) The unincorporated association will have to appoint trustees if it wishes to hold property such as a clubhouse. Similarly, if the club is to make a contract or be a party to litigation, a nominated member of the club must act on its behalf. However, as these activities are usually limited they are not too big of a drawback.


D. Suitable For?:

● Grassroots clubs who do not hold any significant property or employ staff and whose liabilities can be easily covered by having in place appropriate insurance policies. Notable exceptions to this general rule include the IRFU and the English Lawn Tennis Association which are both unincorporated associations. However, nowadays most large sports clubs, events, or governing bodies are limited liability companies.


2. Guarantee Companies

A. What Is It?:

● The liability of the members of a guarantee company is limited to the guarantee amount, usually a nominal sum. The guarantee company’s constitutional documents are its Memorandum and Articles of Association. It consists of members who normally elect a board of directors to conduct the affairs of the company and to whom the executives will report. It is possible to have either a public or private guarantee company. There are two key differences between public and private guarantee companies. Firstly, a public company limited by guarantee must have a minimum of 7 members with no upper limit on the number of members. In contrast, a private company limited by guarantee can have only a single member up to a maximum of 50 members. Secondly, a public company limited by guarantee is prohibited from having a share capital, while a private company limited by guarantee must have a share capital.

● A key characteristic is that a guarantee company may and generally will wish to generate a profit but it may not distribute that profit to its members. Profits are thus reinvested in the company/sport.

B. Advantages:

● Limited Liability: The liability of the members is limited to the guarantee amount.

● Separate Legal Personality. This characteristic provides a club with the ability to hold property and bank accounts in its own right and the ability to sue and be sued in its own name rather than in the name of certain individuals.

● Flexibility: A company’s Memorandum and Articles of Association may be tailored to the purposes of the particular sports organisation. In particular a private company limited by guarantee may create different classes of shares in order to give different shareholders different rights. A Shareholders Agreement may also be put in place to further define the relationship between the members.

C. Disadvantages:

● Regulated Environment: The Companies Acts prescribe various regulatory requirements which companies must comply with such as Companies Registration Office filings, meaning increased administrative burden and not insignificant cost compared to unincorporated associations. Cost may be an issue for small clubs and sports. Also failure to comply with these requirements will lead to probable prosecution and fines.

● Directors’ Duties: Where clubs or organisations are operated as companies they must appoint directors who are subject to onerous statutory duties and may be personally liable if the company fails to comply with the Companies Acts.

D. Suitable For?:

● Larger clubs holding property and governing bodies, in instances where profits are not to be distributed. Examples include Kilmacud Crokes, Longford Town F.C., the FAI, the Irish Basketball Association and Páirc an Chrocaigh Teoranta, the company established by the GAA to manage Croke Park.

3. Limited Companies

3A Private Limited Company

A. What Is It?:

● A private limited company with a share capital, a board of directors and members who hold shares in the company which may be transferred and which may carry particular rights e.g. voting rights. This is the typical basic private company that most people are familiar with. The private company limited by shares may have a maximum of 50 members.

● The company’s ‘rules’ are its Memorandum and Articles of Association which are filed in the Companies Registration Office. It may also have a set of rules to deal with the conduct of the organisation’s affairs which may go beyond matters normally covered by a company’s Articles of Association. This is allowed by company law but it is very important that the rules conform with the Articles, as at law the latter have primacy over the organisation’s rules.

B. Advantages:

● Capital: A private limited company has the ability to raise finance by attracting investors through issuing shares and debentures. Shares may also be bought and sold.

● Limited Liability: As with guarantee companies.

● Separate Legal Personality: As with guarantee companies.

● Flexibility: As with guarantee companies.

C. Disadvantages:

● Regulated Environment: As with guarantee companies.

● Directors’ Duties: As with guarantee companies.

D. Suitable For?:

● Larger and more complex commercial and financial operations such as governing bodies and large clubs wishing to make a profit and possibly distribute that profit to its members. Examples include Shelbourne F.C. and European Rugby Cup.

3B Public Limited Company

A. What Is It?:

● A company that offers its shares to the public. It must have a minimum of seven members but, unlike a private company limited by shares, it may extend its membership beyond 50. A PLC may offer its shares directly to the public or sell them through the Stock Exchange and float the company in this way. In Ireland, there are no sports clubs listed on the Stock Exchange.

● The PLC is in many ways very similar to the private company limited by shares, with principles such as limited liability and separate legal personality being equally applicable. On the other hand, the law and practice applicable to its formation, capitalisation, membership, corporate governance, transfer of shares, and accounting disclosure requirements is markedly different.

● A public company may be formed afresh or a private company may be converted to a public company where it wishes to increase its membership and/or raise additional capital. The formation of a PLC is typically a commercially motivated and expansionist move on the part of an organisation.

B. Advantages:

● Flexibility: As well as having the ability to tailor its Memorandum and Articles to suit its purposes, a PLC may issue various types of shares with different qualities of membership rights attached. For example, voting rights can be restricted to a small number of specific shares in order to retain control of the club in a few hands.

● Separate Legal Personality.

● Limited Liability: Each member’s liability is restricted to the amount unpaid on his shareholding.

● Share Transfer: Shares in a PLC are in principle freely transferable, allowing a member of a golf club to sell his membership, perhaps even at a profit. This right is not absolute and may be subject to certain restrictions contained in the company’s Memorandum & Articles. The PLC can also be listed on the stock exchange.

● Capital: A PLC has the ability to raise finance by issuing shares and debentures. It has the added advantage of unlimited membership, allowing it even greater potential to raise capital.

C. Disadvantages:

● Regulated Environment: PLCs are subject to an even more stringently regulated environment than the other two types of company.

● Directors’ Duties: The directors of a PLC are subject to the same onerous statutory duties as the directors of the other two types of company discussed.

• Loss of Control: As the Glazers’ purchase of Manchester United illustrated, a significant disadvantage to a PLC offering its shares to the public is that it has no control over who purchases its shares or the intentions of its new owners. Despite the rancour of United’s fans the reality is that their club left itself open to this kind of takeover the day it became a PLC.

D. Suitability:

● The PLC can be a suitable vehicle for clubs with a large membership which have a strong profit motivation and are intending to continue growing but require access to capital to do so. As the Irish sporting market is small, few clubs fall into this bracket. The exception is in the golf and country club market, in which several clubs have either converted to or incorporated as PLCs. As the number of members in a PLC may exceed 50, it is a particularly suitable vehicle for commercially run golf clubs, which typically have a membership of hundreds. Various classes of shares may be issued, allowing the club to market different classes of membership to the public. Examples include Carton House Golf Club, Castleknock Golf and Country Club and Glen of the Downs Golf Club.


Conclusion

Each of the above discussed structures has its merits, each has its drawbacks, and none will prove to be a panacea for all of the eventualities that may arise. Nevertheless, the organisation that objectively appraises its own peculiar circumstances and then chooses the structure that best fits those circumstances will have at least laid the foundation for a successful venture. If the sports club, event, or governing body decides to incorporate then it is very important that it keeps up to date with all of its company law obligations especially relating to its company filings. The corporate governance environment has changed substantially since the establishment of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement in 2001 and there are substantial penalties for failure to meet the filing deadlines. It is also important that company directors in particular are aware of and comply with their statutory and fiduciary duties to the company.



Kenan Furlong, Associate

Hivemind187

You do realize that when they say "large club" they mean thousands upon thousands of members with full time employed staff and massive amounts of money and sponsorship involved.

We have 24 members.

I think an informal association suits us down to the ground right now.

Sparks

I think an informal association suits us down to the ground right now.

I agree, but with huge emphasis on the last two words of the sentence!

Seriously, you're at the beginning of a long road here. Yes, you need to watch where you put your feet so you don't trip, but equally you need to keep an eye to where you're going long-term. Right now the umbrella body for shooting is a private club (an unincorporated association) and that's caused huge problems for shooting, many of which are now not fixable because other shooting bodies are not private clubs.

Let me explain a point in detail that will directly affect you now. If a member of the IAA committee is also a director of an airsoft company (a shop, a field, whatever); then that person is bound by law to always make any decision he or she is asked to make in favour of that company, not in favour of the IAA unless the two don't conflict. It's a basic conflict of interest, and it is not reconcilable through good will, because should that person make a decision against the immediate, short-term interests of the company in favour of the IAA, they will be acting ultra vires and as a result, their decision is not binding and has no legal weight. In other words, if you're in a company and on the committee, and you're asked to vote for a technical rule in the IAA rules that means your company has to spend money, then if you vote for the rule, your vote has no legal weight; and you have a common law duty to vote against the rule.

Dave!

I imagine it'd be handy enough becoming members of the Federation of Irish Sport, http://www.irishsports.ie .

We can contact Sarah O Connor here, http://www.irishsports.ie/contact/default.asp

And here's a list of the members, http://www.irishsports.ie/membership/members.asp
(GAA, IRFU, Special Olympics Ireland.... The Irish Tug of War Association. I think we stand a serious chance of being recognised! And that would increase our strength IMMENSELY!)

We've got a constitution, a provisional committee, a list of provisional members... we've got short term and long term goals, we've got ideas, we've got a website.
Maybe we should start having more confidence in the IAA, now that I think of it What do ye think about contacting the FIS?

Hivemind187

DaveMcG wrote:

I imagine it'd be handy enough becoming members of the Federation of Irish Sport, http://www.irishsports.ie .

We can contact Sarah O Connor here, http://www.irishsports.ie/contact/default.asp

And here's a list of the members, http://www.irishsports.ie/membership/members.asp
(GAA, IRFU, Special Olympics Ireland.... The Irish Tug of War Association. I think we stand a serious chance of being recognised! And that would increase our strength IMMENSELY!)

We've got a constitution, a provisional committee, a list of provisional members... we've got short term and long term goals, we've got ideas, we've got a website.
Maybe we should start having more confidence in the IAA, now that I think of it What do ye think about contacting the FIS?

WAAAAAAY ahead of you ... but thanks for the vote of confidence.

Dave!

Thank god you're here..

ditpaintball

We are going off topics here people (iaa committee), but one point to make.

Easy on the ISF, dont get your hopes up too quick. They are the group of NGB's. NGB's are decided by the Irish Sports council.
Good work to get in touch and let them know that setting up. But in order to get reconised by the ISC, you need at least 8 airsoft clubs set up around the country that affiliate to the IAA before they reconinse you as a governing boby (if that is what your aim is) or NGB and get proper reconition....and funding . So the next step i would think for you guys. Get small clubs set up and affiliate to the IAA. End of the day it makes sense, that you need the support. I know that probably all the Irish airsoft community are here, but the ISC sees a group of people getting together and deciding to be the governing body (long term), it doesnt work that easy I'm afraid. Then when you have ISC reconigiton, then approach the ISF

From a paintball point of view, its harder for us to set up clubs because its just more hassel initially due to the firearms thing. But the plan is to approach each paintball venue and get them to set up a club on their grounds with a few members in each. There are 11 venues in the south, so bang, problem solved.

I may be wrong with some of this information.

Sparks

ditpaintball wrote:

Easy on the ISF, dont get your hopes up too quick. They are the group of NGB's. NGB's are decided by the Irish Sports council.

Eh, no, they're not.
The Irish Sports Council recognises NGBs that fulfill a basic list of criteria (number of clubs, distribution of clubs, strategic plan for developing the sport and so on and so forth); but first off they don't decide the NGB, they only recognise existing ones who apply; and secondly, that recognition isn't worth much in terms of legitimacy, it's only pursued by groups because of the funding it makes available.

If you want a claim of legitimacy, you need to be recognised either by the overwhelming majority of all airsoft players in the ROI and NI, or you need international recognition of some form.

Who's the international governing body for airsoft? Is there such a thing?

when you have ISC reconigiton, then approach the ISF

Actually the FIS recognition is independent of ISC recognition. For example, the NTSA are the olympic rifle&pistol target shooting NGB for Ireland. They're recognised by the ISSF (the international body) and the Olympic Council of Ireland and the FIS, but not by the ISC, because the ISC want to recognise the shooting umbrella body instead (the umbrella body is only recognised by the ISC, not by the others).


So both airsoft and paintball should be seeking recognition from the FIS and from their respective international bodies and then should go chasing after Sports Council recognition and funding.

ditpaintball

Ahh,so basically what your saying sparks, the IAA or IPPA can claim to be a governing body for airsoft/paintball in the country because everybody who is involved in airsoft/paintball in ireland is some way involved in the IAA and/or the IAA is know by other airsoft/paintall bodies in other countries as being the 'head of Airsoft in Ireland' - An NGB.

Then the Irish Sport Federation will reconise this and to them, the IAA/IPPA is the NGB.

The Irish Sports Council would then prefer to accept umbrella groups. For example, if the IPPA and the IAA could set up some sort of 'Soft Air Shooting Sports Association', the this would be the body to approach the ISC with?

Harekin

I think considering the fact we dont even have membership or an elected council that the ISF would even consider us for membership.

Sparks

ditpaintball wrote:

Ahh,so basically what your saying sparks, the IAA or IPPA can claim to be a governing body for airsoft/paintball in the country because everybody who is involved in airsoft/paintball in ireland is some way involved in the IAA and/or the IAA is know by other airsoft/paintall bodies in other countries as being the 'head of Airsoft in Ireland' - An NGB.

Yes. The thing to remember is that the ISC does not decide who the NGB is. That decision never tends to be made by any one individual or one body so much as it becomes obvious as one group does more than any other to promote a sport. And while it can be nebulous in the beginning, the moment one clear leader emerges, it all tends to coalesce around them afterwards. That's the natural progression for these things.

So, get international recognition, do a lot domestically for the sport, and you're pretty much the de facto NGB, and then the ISC will eventually recognise you.

The Irish Sports Council would then prefer to accept umbrella groups.

The ISC would prefer life simpler for them.
That doesn't mean you have to accept that lazy-ass approach from them, they work for you, not the other way round.
Look at it this way - if they want umbrella groups, why do they recognise the clay pigeon shooting association seperately from the rifle/pistol group? Why do they recognised taekwondo and judo seperately from the martial arts federation? And so on.
That's not to say umbrella groups are intrinsicly bad; just to say that you shouldn't conform to the ISC's whim, you should be focussed on the good of the sport first and foremost.
If it's better for the sport to keep airsoft and paintball in the one body, then have one body, not the IAA and IPPA as two bodies in a third umbrella body...

Sparks

Harekin wrote:

I think considering the fact we dont even have membership or an elected council that the ISF would even consider us for membership.

The elected council business becomes important after the first AGM, not before (it's recognised that these bodies arise naturally from a small group of interested individuals). Also, that's one of the ISC rules, not the Federation for Irish Sport's rules.
So I'd apply to the FIS before deciding what they're going to do with my application if I were you...