Deport Convicted Non-nationals

DonJose

Before you start with the flame thrower, I have nothing against law-abiding non-nationals living in Ireland, I'm married to one plus I was in their shoes 15 years ago when I left Ireland looking for work abroad.

However I believe any non-national who puts together a string of convictions should get deported. I found the following on the Irish Indo online, made me sick.

Lithuanian man sentenced to 12 years for Waterford rape
"A Lithuanian man has been jailed for twelve years at the Central Criminal Court, for raping a woman in Waterford last year.

22-year-old Artion Dmitrikov of Viking House Hostel, South Anne Street, pleaded not guilty to raping the 27-year-old woman at her home in March 2006.

The accused, who had eleven previous convictions since coming to Ireland three years ago, was also found guilty of assault causing harm."

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=106843

WTF, 11 prior convictions in 3 years, could nobody see he was a bad apple from the beginning.

DonJose

And another one,

A Scottish man, who forced a young girl to give him oral sex while he took pornographic photographs of other young girls, has been given a six years prison sentence at the Central Criminal Court.
Robert Rammage, aged 67, of The Tramway, Spa Road, Inchicore - who's originally from Midlothian IN Scotland - pleaded guilty to one count of oral rape, one of making 134 photographs of child pornography and 14 of sexually assaulting a girl on dates from June 2002 to May 2005 at a Dublin address.

The court heard that Gardaí searched Rammage's flat, he produced a bag containing bundles of numbered Polaroid photographs, and said "This is what you want".

Imposing sentence, Mr. Justice Paul Carney also directed that Rammage be registered as a sex offender.
http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=106845

Plug

They should be shipped back to where ever they came from, Only the ones that commit crimes that bad, bastards.

Overheal

Any conviction that leads to more jail time than 6 months should be deported imo.

Sex offenders shall be castrated in my dominion.

Plug

Yes i think they should bring in casturation and im being dead serious.

Dyr

what? they should be ground down into a very fine sugar?

humanji

Bambi wrote:

what? they should be ground down into a very fine sugar?

lol, Quote Of The Week! (and it's only monday!)

Overheal

castrated: not Castor'ed!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How about the Irish comming crimes abroad? Same thing?

Also, do these guys (particulalry the Lithuanian) come in with a clean record? Does anyone actually vet them in the first place?

racso1975

I dont always agree with the background checks as this is a) not reliable what about people who have not been caught yet b) everybody has the right to start afresh

But if somebody flucks up so badly like that twit with 11 previous then throw him the hell out and the same for any sexual offence.

calex71

I share your view somewhat with the back ground checks, but if someone convicted of a serious crime like kiddy fiddling or other sex crime, armed robbery, murder etc is trying to gain entry to a country they should be told to f'off back to where they came from. We dont what them we have enough of our own scum here as it is.

Should it work for Irish abroad aswell? yes it should.
They should not be a burden on another nations tax payers.
Saying that though theres the down side of them having an easier time
in prison in their home nation in somecases.

I mean where would you rather serve a jail stint? mount joy or some prison in thiland?????

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

calex71 wrote:

I share your view somewhat with the back ground checks, but if someone convicted of a serious crime like kiddy fiddling or other sex crime, armed robbery, murder etc is trying to gain entry to a country they should be told to f'off back to where they came from. We dont what them we have enough of our own scum here as it is.

Should it work for Irish abroad aswell? yes it should.
They should not be a burden on another nations tax payers.
Saying that though theres the down side of them having an easier time
in prison in their home nation in somecases.

I mean where would you rather serve a jail stint? mount joy or some prison in thiland?????

I'm assuming the deportation takes place AFTER the jail stint...

OMcGovern

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

I'm assuming the deportation takes place AFTER the jail stint...

I should hope so !
Otherwise Ireland would become a crime tourist spot.

Although there was some disgruntled immigrant a few years ago, who drove his car into a crowd of people. ( think it was on Henry St, Dublin )
He was only deported, not convicted of attempted murder.

Black Swan

calex71 wrote:

I share your view somewhat with the back ground checks, but if someone convicted of a serious crime ... armed robbery, murder etc ... is trying to gain entry to a country they should be told to f'off back to where they came from. We dont what them we have enough of our own scum here as it is.

Should it work for Irish abroad aswell? yes it should.

Well, if America applied your logic to untold numbers of Irish that immigrated there for a new start before, during, and after The Troubles, or for that matter, the last few hundred years of occupation, Ireland would have had a population explosion of returning expats?

If someone comes to Ireland with the will and skill, applies themselves, and makes a valued contribution, what matter their background? Now if they come and commit new crimes, that's a different story.

Flukey

We'd have to deport a lot of Irish people too. Our jails are full of them.

cushtac

All of those people given as examples are EU citizens who have the right to reside in Ireland. I'm not sure what the story is with deportation in such cases.

Seth Brundle

cushtac wrote:

All of those people given as examples are EU citizens who have the right to reside in Ireland. I'm not sure what the story is with deportation in such cases.

I was just about to post that. As members of the EU they have a right to live here (or anywhere within the EU). Just because they broke the law does not remove that right.

To me this thread smacks of racism despite the initial comments from the OP!

Thrill

kbannon wrote:

I was just about to post that. As members of the EU they have a right to live here (or anywhere within the EU). Just because they broke the law does not remove that right.

To me this thread smacks of racism despite the initial comments from the OP!

The old "R" word again. How come any debate that involves non-nationals has some-one screaming racism. The subject is about whether or not anyone from a foreign country has a right to stay here if they are committing crimes, not kicking out all non-nationals. America wouldn't be long in deporting someone who has committed a crime in their country and it's not seen as racism. Just common sense. Respect the laws of this country or do time and then be deported. Makes sense to me. It's an added incentive to not break the law.

5starpool

Send them all to the Falklands.

Boston

If a foreigner committed a crime against me or one of my loved ones I would want to see justice done in Ireland and the sentence carried out in Ireland. You people are suggesting a get of jail free card of deportation. You have to understand that in the country of their origin these people have committed no crime and as such the authorities don't have the same vested interest in keeping them locked up. There's no victims family putting pressure on the government. I can remember the case of that Portuguese guy that shot that girl in bewley's cafe in limerick. He wanted to serve out his sentence in Portugal but the family objected on the grounds that he would would in all likely hood no serve anything like his full sentence.

Deporting Criminals is just selling victims short.

Seth Brundle

thrill wrote:

Respect the laws of this country or do time and then be deported.

As citizens of the EU they are fully entitled to live in any of the member states and be treated the same as anyone born in that state!
What is being suggested it to treat people differently depending on where they were bon!

Would these proposals also apply to people who have secured citizenship of Ireland but who were born abroad?

What happens if a child breaks the law - does the entire family get sent home or just the kid?

What do you do in the case of wrongful conviction - ring them up and ask them to come back?

What would you suggest doing to all those people born in Ireland who have several criminal convictions? Surely they should get something more severe than jail?

As for using America as an example - their justice system isn't something you really think should set a benchmark - is it?

Guy:Incognito

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

If someone comes to Ireland with the will and skill, applies themselves, and makes a valued contribution, what matter their background? Now if they come and commit new crimes, that's a different story.

So you'd be happy with the new teacher in your childs school being a convicted pedeophile as long as they were convicted in another country and they had teaching qualifications?

InFront

If they're applying for residency it's simply a matter of not furthering their application should they have a criminal record for a genuine crime.

If it were an American who raped someone in Florida 5 years ago, just don't grant him residency. If it's some student who was convicted of a 'crime' against a foreign regime like apartheid South Africa or China or Chile, etc, the common sense rule should apply.

As for immigrants who commit crimes here, the question is do you make them pay or just ask them to go away somewhere else. I'd tend to say both: make them pay, then ask them to leave.

BlitzKrieg

. You people are suggesting a get of jail free card of deportation. You have to understand that in the country of their origin these people have committed no crime and as such the authorities don't have the same vested interest in keeping them locked up.

This was exactly what I was thinking.

Deport them and they walk away from their crime. Free to commit countless more crimes, its just further away from you....see no evil etc.

Try and have them deported and have their state's government trial them will be a legal nightmare that will severly clog up both countries in legal matters, not to mention costs.

make them pay, then ask them to leave

seems the most sensible solution.

On the matter of background checks and arriving from within the EU, I dont know how far the law works together between the states but maybe there should be some work done into streamlining the legal communication between the states, that way information on serious crimes commited by someone in one EU state can be fully accessed by the law in another state, and the law will be informed when perpetraitors of specific crimes (sex offenders) are within their boarders?


But like I said i'm not knowledgable on how the EU relates to the individual police forces. I'd asume that a portion of the above would already be implemented.

Thrill

kbannon wrote:

As citizens of the EU they are fully entitled to live in any of the member states and be treated the same as anyone born in that state!
What is being suggested it to treat people differently depending on where they were born!

Would these proposals also apply to people who have secured citizenship of Ireland but who were born abroad?

What happens if a child breaks the law - does the entire family get sent home or just the kid?

What do you do in the case of wrongful conviction - ring them up and ask them to come back?

What would you suggest doing to all those people born in Ireland who have several criminal convictions? Surely they should get something more severe than jail?

As for using America as an example - their justice system isn't something you really think should set a benchmark - is it?

Non nationals in this country are not just from the E.U.

If you've secured Irish citizenship then you should obey the law or face having your citizenship revoked.

If parents cant control their children and they commit crimes then they should face the consequences of not doing so.

If someone is wrongfully convicted then they should have the right to return to this country and take the state to court for compensation.

The comment about Irish prisoners is just ridiculous imo.

As for the American justice system, ours is just as bad. Criminals are getting off way too lightly in this country to the point where jail isn't a big deterrent anymore. Longer sentences is whats needed. The problem is that we don't have the jails to keep them in.

You've got to be tough on crime and not soft.
Bleeding hearts will tell you that all a criminal needs is a good talking to and a little understanding and jail, and deportation if a non national, is not the answer. This is rubbish imo.
If non-nationals know the consequences for criminal behavior will be jail and deportation then they might think twice before breaking the law.

Our man in Havana

There are provisions to exclude EU citizens from Ireland if the goverment so wished. In the Uk the home secretary has the power to deport irish citizens and other EU citizens from the UK.

Jigsaw

Now I'm not a complete Nazi, far from it, but if people want to come into this country then they need to abide by the rules. I hate people who hate Polish people just because they are Polish. I work with a Polish woman and she would out do many Irish women to shame with her work ethic. I wish her all the best with her future, be it in Ireland or Poland. But if people want to come here and f**k about then I think very little leniency ought to be shown. I am all for for political fairness, not political correctness. If people arse about then they should be shown the door. I think Australia (from what I understand) has a good model. If you are a GENUINE asylun seeker then you will be given a safe haven, but apart from that, you need to show in what way you can contribute to a country. Countries are not charities. There needs to be a lot less liberal **** but there also needs to be sense. Problem is finding that middle ground.

I would expect the same standards to be applied to me elsewhere.

Reku

Personally I don't really mind what they did before coming here, but once here they should behave themselves. They are guests in this country and so should behave as guests, if you go to a friend's house and steal from/act hostile towards one of their household would you expect to be thrown out? Hell yes!
Obviously I feel the same needs to be applied to Irish who are abroad, if they can't behave themselves send them back, if they get sent back from too many places then perhaps their right to travel should be called into question. We do not need them giving us a bad name, internationally, as tourists.

cooperguy

I agree completly. I have no problem with decent people coming over here to earn money for themselves. Its mutually benifitial for both the country and the immigrant. But people who commit crimes in this country should not benifit from our economy.

Snake Plisken

Yeah Deport them after they have served their sentance, the majority of people who come here are decent law abiding citizens, but those who commit serious crime should be kicked back to wherever they came from. That goes both ways, so if a serious crime is commited by the scanger westies living in the Costa Blanca is Spain they should serve their sentance and be sent back here.

Interesting case recently, can't remember the full details but a business man who was in Romania (I think), knocked down and killed two children, he left the country and came back to Ireland, but recently one of our judges ruled that he shouldn't be deported back to the country to stand trial, now that is wrong.

Snake

DonJose

Deport them after their sentence is completed, it would be idiotic to deported them without a custodial sentence. Like the above poster stated, the R word is always thrown around. If an Irish person in the States commits a crime or overstays a visa, they are deported, the same rule should apply Irish abroad and non-nationals here.

KBannon, when that lunatic rapist is freed in 8/9 years time, would you be happy if he lived in your community? Would you be singing the same song if it were one of your family who he attacked?

DonJose

Snake Plisken wrote:

Interesting case recently, can't remember the full details but a business man who was in Romania (I think), knocked down and killed two children, he left the country and came back to Ireland, but recently one of our judges ruled that he shouldn't be deported back to the country to stand trial, now that is wrong.

Snake

I was pretty upset with that ruling and posted on it in Motors,

"The High Court has turned down an application to extradite an Irish man wanted in Hungary to serve a sentence for causing the death of two young children while driving."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0112/extradition.html

themole

I agree with the previous posts that convicted criminals should serve their time here and then be deported.

In relation to the above story about an Irish man in Hungary, here are some more details:

Irishman wins fight against extradition

A senior manager with Irish Life has won his High Court battle against extradition to Hungary where he was convicted in his absence of negligent driving causing the deaths of two young children.

The judge said his refusal was based on his finding that Mr Tobin's departure from Hungary could not be defined as "fleeing", as had been contended on the extradition warrant.

In his judgment Mr Justice Peart said that he accepted Mr Tobin's argument that he and his family left Hungary, on November 30th, 2000, following the completion of his work in that country, and that he never fled Hungary at any time before the commencement of any sentence imposed on him.

"I am satisfied that the fleeing must occur following the imposition of sentence, and not as in this case, where the respondent left before the trial," the judge said.

"If the Hungarian authorities had postponed his trial and were now seeking the respondent's surrender so that he could face trial, the matter may be different."

Noting that Mr Tobin had been sentenced in Hungary in absentia, the judge said that the Hungarian authorities had indicated in writing that it would be contrary to their law to retry Mr Tobin.

The reason for the refusal of the warrant was due to the fact that the guy had not fled the country. The Hungarian authorities should have a requested extradition for the trial. Afaik, that is the practice in most cases.

Trials do happen with the defendant in absence, but this is usually due to an inability to locate the defendant or a lack of ability to get them to come back to the country.

Sam Vimes

Boston wrote:

If a foreigner committed a crime against me or one of my loved ones I would want to see justice done in Ireland and the sentence carried out in Ireland. You people are suggesting a get of jail free card of deportation. You have to understand that in the country of their origin these people have committed no crime and as such the authorities don't have the same vested interest in keeping them locked up. There's no victims family putting pressure on the government. I can remember the case of that Portuguese guy that shot that girl in bewley's cafe in limerick. He wanted to serve out his sentence in Portugal but the family objected on the grounds that he would would in all likely hood no serve anything like his full sentence.

Deporting Criminals is just selling victims short.

the idea is they serve their time and are then deported. just kicking them out would of course be stupid and deny the victims justice

Sam Vimes

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Well, if America applied your logic to untold numbers of Irish that immigrated there for a new start before, during, and after The Troubles, or for that matter, the last few hundred years of occupation, Ireland would have had a population explosion of returning expats?

If someone comes to Ireland with the will and skill, applies themselves, and makes a valued contribution, what matter their background? Now if they come and commit new crimes, that's a different story.

if their background is 30 previous convictions, then i think that matters. someone with 30 previous convictions is unlikely to be coming here "for a new start"

Hobbes

I somewhat agree with the OP. TBH the deportation should only take place after they have served jail time here. If it was your 12 year old daughter that got raped as an example of the OP. Would you be satisfied with them just being sent back to their own country? Where most likely they would not be put in jail.

As pointed out as well children/family become an issue as well if one is jailed, what about those who are innocent? They get sent back too?

It boils down to how they entered the country. Work visa could be revoked, but if they are EU members then the crime should punished regardless of what EU country they are in.

senordingdong

Gather them up in a barn, then load them onto the cargo hold of the next trans atlantic flight. The mid Atlantic, you open the hatch. Bingo!

grahamo

Decent law abiding people with a good work ethic are more than welcome but criminals should not be tolerated. We're getting enough grief from Irish criminals without having to put up with foreign criminals as well!

DannyBoy.Lt

DonJose wrote:

22-year-old Artion Dmitrikov of Viking House Hostel, South Anne Street, pleaded not guilty to raping the 27-year-old woman at her home in March 2006.

This Artion Dmitrikov is a citizen of the Republic of Lithuania, but he's not Lithuanian. This name is russian. His parents probably moved to Lithuania during soviet union occupation.

DonJose

DannyBoy.Lt wrote:

This Artion Dmitrikov is a citizen of the Republic of Lithuania, but he's not Lithuanian. This name is russian. His parents probably moved to Lithuania during soviet union occupation.

OK what about this fella. Marius Tamulevicius, originally from Lithuania, mowed down and killed 3 men while driving under the influence of alcohol.

"A 30-year-old motorist had five or six bottles of beer and up to nine shots of vodka before driving off and crashing into a group of pedestrians at speed.

Three men were killed in the accident last year on the outskirts of Navan."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0209/tamuleviciusm.html

drdre

they should be deported if they commit crimes.

DonJose

drdre wrote:

they should be deported if they commit crimes.

But only after they have completed their custodial sentence.

5starpool

5starpool wrote:

Send them all to the Falklands.

Why, to act as mine detectors... instead of the sheep!

Anyway why deport them to a third country that has nothing to do with them (unless they are Falklanders)

Send them to Inishtooskert instead, the isolation will make them think twice.