Wellington Quay Bus Verdict

SickCert

In terms of barriers, I can't see any reason why they couldn't insert the steel bollards which are placed in a lot of places in the city - most notably around St. Stephen's green.

Sadly in some places ive seen cars reverse into some of these and dislodge them, now a 12ton bus doing even at slow speeds has plenty of push.

Red Alert

Yes, people do get into shock. I saw a terrible accident where a girl on a moped was run over by an SUV driven by a woman with 2 kids in the back. When the woman tried to get out after she collapsed on the ground out cold.

AlekSmart

The temporarily absent jman0 has exhibited some highly individual personality traits in relation to this topic.
However that`s the beauty (and the beast) of the Internet I suppose.....the name Rush Limbaugh keeps popping in front of my eyes.

Oddly enuf I can see a piece of thread sticking from the corner of jman0`s cloak and pulling it may reveal a little more of his mindset.

Many long developed cultures have a tradition which allows those who are "Wronged" to take an active part in any judical process which may follow.

This is most often to be found in cases involving the loss of a breadwinner whereby surviving family members can seek monetary retribution in return for sparing the accuseds very life.

Many modern Middle Eastern states such as Saudi Arabia have laws which allow Family Members of injured parties to take an active part in the sentencing and punishment procedures.

We in Ireland may well have to look at our entire Judicial process in order to allow it to have any meaning for hundreds of thousands of Eastern European,Asian and African Immigrants.
These people are familiar with retribution and revenge as an inbuilt part of the Judicial process,whereas the Irish model is based on the far more civilized and liberal attitude of reformation,encouragement and recognition of remorse.

The stark result of this vast difference in Judicial ethos is that we now have a strong belief amongst many thousands of people that "Our" Justice is nothing of the sort.
This is reflected in the increasing tendency of ethnic groupings to sort out their own stuff rather than involving the Irish Authorities.

There have already been several high profile cases of this "Seperate" Justice ranging from Roma Gypsy Marriage Kidnappings to Decapitated Bodies floating in Dublins Canals.

Perhaps this is where jman0 is coming from in his/her demand for a pound of flesh ?

It`s not a pretty type of Justice I suppose,but it tends to be very populist as can be evidenced by the practice of public executions in China,Saudi Arabia,Iran and many other countries which feature in Amnesty Internationals frequent Lists.

Jman0`s rage may not even be directed at Mr Henvey or his legal team but rather at how the country has failed his test of Justice being seen to be done.

I remain of the belief that a fair trial was indeed given and the Jury,with the benefit of having sat and listened for 10 days to some highly detailed evidence returned a verdict based on that EVIDENCE.

Its kind of sad too however that the jman0`s of the world are so hungry for one mans blood that they fail to see the role played by those responsible for engineering a situation which once put in place made a serious accident inevitable.......and that "Situation" remains in place today at several locations throughout the City.

Calina

AlekSmart wrote:

We in Ireland may well have to look at our entire Judicial process in order to allow it to have any meaning for hundreds of thousands of Eastern European,Asian and African Immigrants.
These people are familiar with retribution and revenge as an inbuilt part of the Judicial process,whereas the Irish model is based on the far more civilized and liberal attitude of reformation,encouragement and recognition of remorse.

OT but no, I'm afraid I disagree with this. We have a justice system in Ireland. It has failings - the chief one being, perhaps, that it can be quite longwinded. The onus is on people coming into this country to accept that justice system. I see no reason - and no justification in your post - for rolling back hard won gains in terms of trying to make justice a rational issue rather than emotional.

Retribution and revenge are not rational and they have, historically, often been misplaced. Miscarriages of justice are common because justice is not being sought; revenge is sought. If anything, it is a justice model based on ignorance.

The possibility that many of our immigrants who may come from that model does not mean that we should dilute our own system of justice just to please them. I'm of the opinion, incidentally, that any efforts at "local" justice in the way of vengeance or "sorting things out ourselves" should be heavily stamped out, no matter what section of the community they come from, because it is a very short step from there to vigilante-ism. If you come to benefit from our economic growth, that doesn't preclude you from adhering to our local laws as well. Incidentally, such "local" justice systems are not solely the remit of the non-Irish community. There has been plenty of evidence of it within our own section of the community.

Normal service to be resumed.

Sometimes accidents happen. Unfortunately - and probably as a result of the insurance/compo culture that is increasingly prevalent in this country, and indeed, because we like the American way of doing something, a single point of blame has to be found, and preferable if it is someone. Unfortunately, the world is not that simple, and sometimes a system fails and sometimes accidents just happen.

Red Alert

On a slightly off-topic note, just until tempers cool - what's going to happen to AV42, the bus at the centre of all this? Re-use, sale or scrap?

Hagar

Use it as a schoolbus. Isn't that what they do with all the other (20+ year old) deathtraps?

AlekSmart

Thus spake [Calina] :
"The possibility that many of our immigrants who may come from that model does not mean that we should dilute our own system of justice just to please them. I'm of the opinion, incidentally, that any efforts at "local" justice in the way of vengeance or "sorting things out ourselves" should be heavily stamped out, no matter what section of the community they come from, because it is a very short step from there to vigilante-ism. If you come to benefit from our economic growth, that doesn't preclude you from adhering to our local laws as well. Incidentally, such "local" justice systems are not solely the remit of the non-Irish community. There has been plenty of evidence of it within our own section of the community."

Heaven forbid...I was trying to identify and outline the thrust of jman0`s perceptions in relation to what HE/SHE percieved as a major failing of our Judicial system in this case.

Whilst having no desire to join nman0 in the wilderness I think the highly emotive and even vengeful nature of the posts deserve consideration as I am sure there are many such as jman0 who see it in this light.

This concept of Local Justice and the need for "Bloodletting" is a rather unsettling facet of the massive increase in personal freedom and wealth which modern Ireland now enjoys.
Todays Irish Times (23/Feb) carries a chilling report of a murder conviction in the courts where the personalities involved describe in detail the ease with which they shoot each other.
The guilty party even shrugs off his life sentence with the remark "I`ll do it on my back".

Perhaps jman0 feels this is indicative of the process which Mr Henvey has just gone through and the punishment which may have awaited him ?
Perhaps jman0 feels denied the satisfaction of knowing that his/her punishment criteria have been ignored by the Jury ?

I am happy to accept the Jury verdict as I know the jury had access to the FULL evidence which we in the public did not,unless we attended the court daily.
Perhaps the greater issue is who the jman0`s of the world turn to next when their needs for retribution are not met by the constitutional power..???? :eek:

walshb

So are we now to assume that any fatal bus crash, it's up to the state to prove that the bus was not faulty and every driver can basically blame a 'faulty' bus. How is that justice. That bus was tested by the gardai and found to be safe. Henvey got in the bus and it mowed down 5 people and his defence blame the bus.

Also everyone is so adamant that the guy didn't mean to do it. Nobody apart from Henvey could possibly know this. I do not think the right verdict was given.

walshb

HelterSkelter wrote:

So what do you think happened then brains? DO you think he drove over those people on purpose? Do you think he didn't want to help them? Have you never heard of someone going into shock before?

EDIT: Yeah post reported here also

How do you know he DID NOT?

Time Magazine

walshb wrote:

So are we now to assume that any fatal bus crash, it's up to the state to prove that the bus was not faulty and every driver can basically blame a 'faulty' bus. How is that justice. That bus was tested by the gardai and found to be safe. Henvey got in the bus and it mowed down 5 people and his defence blame the bus.

Seriously, would you rather a situation where the accused is not innocent until proven guilty? What if you were on trial?

Also everyone is so adamant that the guy didn't mean to do it. Nobody apart from Henvey could possibly know this. I do not think the right verdict was given.

Not stepping on the mods' toes here but be very careful about any implication you might make about his motives.

walshb

Now don't be silly. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial. From what I heard I think the driver is to blame and the fact that 5 people were killed, I do not take his defence of a 'power surge' and 'I don't remember' seriously. It was a defence who was desperate and threw out the power surge theory and it was believed. The bus was certified after as safe and in perfect working condition. How long does it take for a driver to put his foot on the brake resulting in the bus stopping very quickly. It travelled 30 metres from 0mph.
He's an experienced professional driver. The power surge theory was corroborated by other drivers, simply because they said so. I also never mentioned whether or not it was deliberate. I merely pointed out that nobody apart from Henvey could know this. That's science fact. So why did the prosecution state from the beginning that there was no intent. Only Henvey could know this.

shltter

walshb wrote:

So are we now to assume that any fatal bus crash, it's up to the state to prove that the bus was not faulty and every driver can basically blame a 'faulty' bus. How is that justice. That bus was tested by the gardai and found to be safe. Henvey got in the bus and it mowed down 5 people and his defence blame the bus.

Of course it is up to the state to prove the bus was not faulty what would you suggest as an alternative.

And yes every driver could blame a faulty bus but that does not mean that every jury would be convinced by that argument.


Gardai as with all humans are not infallible the jury obviously took into consideration the opinion of the Garda but they also took all the other evidence presented to them and decided not to convict. That is why we have courts what is your suggestion that once a Garda says it is so then that is the end of the matter and no one else's expert opinion is relevant.

walshb wrote:

Also everyone is so adamant that the guy didn't mean to do it. Nobody apart from Henvey could possibly know this. I do not think the right verdict was given.

The prosecution accepted that whatever the cause of the accident Mr Henvey did not set out to kill or injure anyone any suggestion other than that is putting yourself and Boards on very dodgy ground I would imagine.

Calina

While I accept that the decisions of the court system can be questioned, and debated in general, I'm finding that there is an occasional tendency to attribute guilt to someone who has been found innocent by said court system in this specific case. If you accept the court system as being the legal framework of the country, you can't really pick and choose what bits of it you accept. We have a justice principle of innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

So I'm handing out another warning - walshb, you might want to take note - attributions of guilt to someone who has been found innocent of a charge by a court will result in a ban. I'm also in the mood to start handing out bans on this subject without prior warning seeing as this is the second time I've given this warning in this thread.

Return to normal service.

walshb

Or is it not up to the defence to prove that the driver was NOT faulty.
It works both ways. Buses can't defend themselves, and that's why we have to rely on tests carried out. Now the Gardai tested the bus and swore with expert verification that the bus was NOT faulty. So all the defence had was a 'power surge', this was not proved to have happened. Nor was it proved it did not happen. It was all hearsay from other drivers. Sure how could we ever convict anybody if we could not take expert garda technical eveidence. I know they are only human, but that's life. Someone has to present the facts

One thing was proved and that was that the crash bus was passed as safe.
I do not see how I am on dodgy grounds as to the intent or non intent. It's simple, this is a persons opinion. It's not fact and you cannot say that it's 100% true either way. Anyway we'll leave it at that. He was cleared.

Calina

walshb wrote:

...Everyone is entitled to a fair trial....

the problem, as I see it is that in this country, lately, there seems to be a lot of debate on what constitutes a fair trial. From what I can see, most people's definition of a fair trial is one where they get the result they agree with.

Currently, the only evidence that there is that it wasn't a fair trial is that you don't agree with the verdict. I have to say that I don't find that overwhelming at all.

The problem is the world is not binary - there are few enough absolutes. There are frequently a lot of grey areas. The issue I have here is that there has been an event where 5 people died. Tragedy. Instead of trying really to find out how to prevent such a thing happening, I get the impression that there are people out there who think "someone has to pay for this" and that they believe that they can define how that price should be put together.

Calina

walshb wrote:

Or is it not up to the defence to prove that the driver was NOT faulty.

You miss a central point of the justice system here. It is up to the prosecution to prove that the driver was at fault. Clearly they failed in that endeavour.

Innocent until proven guilty.

seamus

walshb wrote:

Or is it not up to the defence to prove that the driver was NOT faulty.

No it's not, and that's a cornerstone of our legal system.

Relying on the accused to prove that they're not guilty is exactly what allowed half a million people be put to death to "prove" that they weren't witches.

walshb

Seamus, the bus was proved NOT to be faulty. The defence did NOT prove that the crash bus was faulty. Now what's left except the driver. If the bus didn't do it. Who did. Henvey was the driver and in this situation it is up to Henvey to prove he was not the reason the bus crashed. Now the fact that the bus was certified as in perfect working order and also that the defence did not prove it was NOT, there's only one other explanation.
This has nothing to do with innocent until proven guilty. If he made a genuine mistake, he has to be held responsible. The way it is now, we have the majority of people believing that this bus had a mind of its own.
A lot of these people I'm sure are still today hopping on and off these freaky buses. This power surge red herring I think has fooled a hell of a lot of people

walshb

One last thing. If me or you or anyone else went out in our cars and slammed into a crowd, are we not entitled to say nothing and use the whole 'the car just shot off and next those people were hit', sure if it can happen to buses, it can happen to cars. Then our car is tested and found to be perfect, but still we get a couple of mates or others to claim that they experienced a similar power surge in their cars. Would this be OK.
Because it should be perfectly OK, according to the recent trial

seamus

You're missing the point.

The prosecution failed to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that human error was the cause of the crash, and that the bus wasn't faulty.

That's regardless of whether you think the bus wasn't faulty, or whether the defence failed to convince you that the bus *was* faulty.

walshb

Seamus, I'm inclined to agree. The prosecution in my opinion were useless from what I was hearing. They were not up to it.
Would you personally agree that it was more likely a faulty bus or driver error. Do you think the driver was more than likely at fault. Just your opinion?

Alkers

Anyone else notice that since this every single bus stop has been dug-up and replaces with those higher kerbs?

Ham'nd'egger

walshb wrote:

Seamus, the bus was proved NOT to be faulty. The defence did NOT prove that the crash bus was faulty. Now what's left except the driver. If the bus didn't do it. Who did. Henvey was the driver and in this situation it is up to Henvey to prove he was not the reason the bus crashed. Now the fact that the bus was certified as in perfect working order and also that the defence did not prove it was NOT, there's only one other explanation.
This has nothing to do with innocent until proven guilty. If he made a genuine mistake, he has to be held responsible. The way it is now, we have the majority of people believing that this bus had a mind of its own.
A lot of these people I'm sure are still today hopping on and off these freaky buses. This power surge red herring I think has fooled a hell of a lot of people

Your right on one point, it was up to Henvey to prove that he was not the reason... and guess what, he did prove it or else 12 of our peers would not have found him as such. Also, on this thread we have the educated benefit of posters such as Sickcert and Shltter adding to the debate (both of whom will understand the ALX 400 series of bus far far more then either you or I will ever hope to until we drive one) saying that Mr. Henvey was cleared of the charges levied on him so it would be wise to learn from what they are saying about buses.

.G.

The prosecution proved no fault was found but they didn't prove that a one-off non recorded power surge DIDN'T occur therefore they failed to prove Mr.Henvey was Guilty of a crime.Also the defense expert was able to show that Volvos fault recording system only kicked in after 60 secs and therefore faults of up to 60 sec's can go unrecorded.This was backed up when the Garda expert under cross examination said that 2 of the faults he instigated in tests went unrecorded by the Volvo system.

People are drawing conclusions based on the minimal facts reported in the media.No one on this board,unless present for the entirety of the court case is in a postition to question the verdict given.

cast_iron

walshb wrote:

If me or you or anyone else went out in our cars and slammed into a crowd, are we not entitled to say nothing and use the whole 'the car just shot off and next those people were hit', sure if it can happen to buses, it can happen to cars. Then our car is tested and found to be perfect, but still we get a couple of mates or others to claim that they experienced a similar power surge in their cars. Would this be OK.
Because it should be perfectly OK, according to the recent trial

Every case is different. In general, each case is based on it's own merits.

seamus

walshb wrote:

Would you personally agree that it was more likely a faulty bus or driver error. Do you think the driver was more than likely at fault. Just your opinion?

I can't give an opinion on it. I've driven automatic vehicles for maybe 30 minutes in total during my driving life. I've never driven a bus, automatic or otherwise. All I have to go on is the minimal evidence presented in the media.

Based on this evidence, and my own personal experience as a computer systems analyst, I absolutely could not rule out the possibility of a mechnical, electrical or electronic fault.

HelterSkelter

Simona1986 wrote:

Anyone else notice that since this every single bus stop has been dug-up and replaces with those higher kerbs?

That's nothing to do with it. That is to make it easier for wheelchair users to get onto the bus. Do you really think a higher kerb will stop a bus mounting it?!!!

Calina

walshb banned for two weeks.

HelterSkelter

Calina wrote:

walshb banned for two weeks.

Erm, for what????

KC61

Simona1986 wrote:

Anyone else notice that since this every single bus stop has been dug-up and replaces with those higher kerbs?

The kassel kerbing installation started well before this accident and is present to enable wheelchairs/buggies to board buses without the user having to lift themselves onto the bus.