Good call or not

cooker3

Last night we played a 50 euro SnG in the jackpot and 1 hand that came up which caused quite a lot of debate.

The blinds are 150-300 and it's a 20 minute clock
I have about 6000, the villan here is Luke (Shoutman) who has me covered.
I raise utg + 1 to 900.
I am been playing pretty tight and are perceived as even tighter
Luke calls in the small blind with JTs. He has been aggressive and playing a few pots.
He thinks he can outplay me and possibly get me off AK or a hand such as that
With that in mind is this a good call by Luke?

Edit: I purposely haven't put my hand in, looking at this from Lukes viewpoint

phantom_lord

trying to outplay someone oop is gonna be tough.

what did u raise to, 900?

you're too shallow, and he's cold calling too high of a % of his stack oop for this to be goot imo, even in a deepstacked cash game I wouldn't really like it tbh, esp. when he precieves your range at i dunno something like aq+ 10/jj+, he's gonna need a very specific flop to do anything but c/f.

he may rep a set on a rag board but after you c-bet the flop you're gonna be too committed to fold.


btw, we've a specific forum for discussions of this nature

cooker3

phantom_lord wrote:

trying to outplay someone oop is gonna be tough.

what did u raise to, 900?

you're too shallow, and he's cold calling too high of a % of his stack oop for this to be goot imo, even in a deepstacked cash game I wouldn't really like it tbh, esp. when he precieves your range at i dunno something like aq+ 10/jj+, he's gonna need a very specific flop to do anything but c/f.

he may rep a set on a rag board but after you c-bet the flop you're gonna be too committed to fold.


btw, we've a specific forum for discussions of this nature

Yeah, forget to include size of raise, post is edited now.
and yes I am aware of the forum

RasTa

Well it's not terrible.

shoutman

Also you forgot to add, that the bb (AKQJ10) who was chip leader at the time had chips in his hand waiting to drop them over the line so it wasnt just me VS Rob.

I really think some people made too much of a big deal out of it, It was never going to be terrible at worst it was going to be incorrect abc poker.


By far the worse play was me dropping ak sooted when P L pushed all in clearly offering protection to whoever it was that had pushed before him. That was a poor fold.

Also read the thread on the Mustard forum, good stuff.

fixer

his call is 600 and he has 6000+ in his stack, so calling this is okay, given his read on you (that he can outplay you and that you will hang on to hands post flop). Even better odds to call if BB does indeed call.

RasTa

What happened to warrant a thread anyway?

shoutman

I was small blind so it was seven fifty more I think, I had about 12k in chips at the time, I didnt call to outplay him, I felt that it was possible to outplay him but I wasnt calling purely for that, knowing that bb was a certain caller was a large factor in the call.

shoutman

RasTa wrote:

What happened to warrant a thread anyway?

I flopped the nuts straight with a straight flush draw (not that it mattered), I check BB checks Rob bets 2k, I have a poorly dramaticised think before flat calling, BB folds, I check turn rob pushs I call, he has aces.

DapperGent

lol at fúcking around on the ecksor's pet forum. How's the big house lads?

RasTa

shoutman wrote:

I flopped the nuts straight with a straight flush draw (not that it mattered), I check BB checks Rob bets 2k, I have a poorly dramaticised think before flat calling, BB folds, I check turn rob pushs I call, he has aces.

Is that it ? I'm calling in the small blind with any suited connectors to see what the flop brings, tis only a 3 times the bb raise and you have a big enough stack to peek a flop.

shoutman

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/banlist.php

Hahahaha thats brilliant, is that site wide?

DapperGent

Looks like it. Ecksor is an angry bear.

Hectorjelly

calling there is absolutely horrible

This is one of those situations I was talking about before, for some reason its accepted that cold calling 1/10 of someones stack out of position in order to outplay someone WITH NO IDEA OF WHAT HE HAS is total rubbish. With the stacks so shallow all it will mean is that the JT will end up folding a lot of the time, and checking raising all in a lot of the time, and nearly every time if the original raiser has a real hand JT will be getting all his chips in as a dog. Hoping someone has AK and missed the flop is not outplaying somebody.

shoutman

He's an angry bear with a sense of humour, their ban is finished already.

shoutman

HJ as I said, I did not call solely with the intention to outplay someone, It was not 1/10th of my stack.

Lafortezza

Wtf happened?

bops

read post 9 Laf!

nothing wrong with the call imo (TJs my fav hand), i suppose it's just a pity you weren't on the button.

this probably translates to the masses that it was a horrible call and you should be shot!!

personaly, the standard raise with aa is the mistake, i believe that aa and kk should always be horribly overbetted pf, hopefully to get hu with some loon and then big bet any flop (well one w/o an A if you're holding kk)

standard raises with AA only begs people with nutcrackers to come along and fk you over.

just a thought - i know my advice is (as always) not standard/unaceptable/-EV etc etc and appears to get many of the respected/very intelligent posters backs up. Am I wrong to voice my opinions? are they harmful? or just plain stupid??

ach - don't mind me! - i just appear to be apologising for voicing my opinions lately - as if my tagline doesn't say enough...

in a happy tone, as always,
tired tilty bops!

cardshark202

The call is terrible. Its more than 10% of effective stacks. Awful call.

shoutman

Its not ten percent of effective stacks. BB was chip leader at this stage! and was calling also.

bops

6% of you stack
getting over 2/1 on your money
the 21st best hand in the deck - top 8%

what more do you need to make the call??

one important thing? how many left in the sng??

myflipflops

cooker3 wrote:

Last night we played a 50 euro SnG in the jackpot and 1 hand that came up which caused quite a lot of debate.

what was the large debate about? The call pre flop was slightly on the bad side of marginal. I doubt there is a player in the world who hasnt done this at some point. You flopped the nuts and stacked the AA, most of the time you don't.

Hawk Eye

OH but JTs hits so many flops soooo well.

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

Its not ten percent of effective stacks. BB was chip leader at this stage! and was calling also.

The guy who raised had 6k chips. He is the only person you know for sure is going to be in the hand.

shoutman

BB had six hundred more chips in his hand and was just waiting to make the call.. it was fairly obvious really, I think he had switched off for a second.

Also I dont think the hand would of caused such debate at the table had Rob not had ze aces.

AKQJ10

i had 66 in the bb and was debating to call. i called only when you called cause on a j106 flop im getting everyones chips.

shoutman

You had counted out the chips and were holding them in your hand thats before I even looked at my cards...

sosh

That call is madness!! Luke u are a luckbox... who ended up winning the SnG?

shoutman

Lloyd ending up luckboxing it...

whats mad about the call sean?

Hectorjelly

bops wrote:

6% of you stack
getting over 2/1 on your money
the 21st best hand in the deck - top 8%

what more do you need to make the call??

one important thing? how many left in the sng??

it makes no difference how big your stack is, its the effective stack that is important

shoutman

And the effective stacks (in my mind anyway) wasnt just cookers 6k, there was the bb 15+ stack up for grabs too

Hectorjelly

I was replying to bops, as he seemed to think the fact that you have a big stack has a bearing on it. It doesnt. In any hand it makes no difference what the biggest stack is.

Colding calling 1/15th of someone stack oop with JTs is horrible as well though

cardshark202

You know the effective stack is the smallest stack involved in the pot

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

I was replying to bops, as he seemed to think the fact that you have a big stack has a bearing on it. It doesnt. In any hand it makes no difference what the biggest stack is.

Colding calling 1/15th of someone stack oop with JTs is horrible as well though

of course it has a bearing on it! the first thing you should consider before getting into any pot is your own stack size.

i would often choose to call a raise oop with a good "drawing hand" with great consideration to the issue of "could i afford it?" his stack's answer was yes!

if the flop is sweet you can make $$, if you pick up a good draw - you can afford to take a pop, if you miss - you can afford to lay it down

sng's are a completely different animal than cash games, i respect your knowledge of cash game theory, but they are very different here imo. In a cash game playing this hand oop will loose you money, but i believe that in stts this play is not so -ev given the circumstances.

cardshark202

bops wrote:

of course it has a bearing on it! the first thing you should consider before getting into any pot is your own stack size.

i would often choose to call a raise oop with a good "drawing hand" with great consideration to the issue of "could i afford it?" his stack's answer was yes!

if the flop is sweet you can make $$, if you pick up a good draw - you can afford to take a pop, if you miss - you can afford to lay it down

sng's are a completely different animal than cash games, i respect your knowledge of cash game theory, but they are very different here imo. In a cash game playing this hand oop will loose you money, but i believe that in stts this play is not so -ev given the circumstances.

wrong. very wrong. reasons stated many times over on this forum. seems like no one takes any notice though.

bops

which bit? all of it??
good explanation anyways - tyvm

i beat stts all day long so i must do something right?? maybe i'm just lucky!

i'm not arguing that calling a raise with TJs OOP etc etc is +EV coz it's not! simple as...it just ain't that simple!! - (well yo me it ain't)

believe me when i say this - i do take notice & learn lots of useful stuff here, but it's not black and white - there's a massive grey area in the middle (and it ain't just the variance fairy - she's only a bitch!)


...austrailia - lucky sod

Lazare

Hectorjelly wrote:

Colding calling 1/15th of someone stack oop with JTs is horrible as well though

HJ, are you talking about this particular spot, where a nit raises from EP? Or do you mean in general?

Hectorjelly

lol bops.

take these situations, for examples sake they are both in the early levels of the WSOP

a) you have 15k chips. A tight shortstack with 2000 chips makes it 400 to go on the button. You have JTs on the BB.

b) you have 8k chips. A vtight guy with more than 8k chips makes it 200.

According to your logic you should fold hand 1 and call with hand 2. Which is exa ctly the wrong way around. Again your own stack really means nothing, its the effective stack that you need to use. This is a really obvious point.

Hectorjelly

Lazare wrote:

HJ, are you talking about this particular spot, where a nit raises from EP? Or do you mean in general?

I would think its always bad, heads up out of position against a tight raiser who you dont have a good read on with that type of stacks, unless he is awful.

Lazare

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would think its always bad, heads up out of position against a tight raiser who you dont have a good read on with that type of stacks, unless he is awful.

Yeah, it is bad in this particular spot, but a bluff stop n go (with any two) can be very effective against most opponents.

Pharell_st

Lazare wrote:

Yeah, it is bad in this particular spot, but a bluff stop n go (with any two) can be very effective against most opponents.

hes arguing that to call with Jack Ten is ineffective and so turning the hand into a bluff as you say it doesnt matter what your cards are. so the value in telling the OP its the right play is minimal.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

lol bops.

take these situations, for examples sake they are both in the early levels of the WSOP

a) you have 15k chips. A tight shortstack with 2000 chips makes it 400 to go on the button. You have JTs on the BB.

b) you have 8k chips. A vtight guy with more than 8k chips makes it 200.

According to your logic you should fold hand 1 and call with hand 2. Which is exa ctly the wrong way around. Again your own stack really means nothing, its the effective stack that you need to use. This is a really obvious point.

i dunno how you got that from my post HJ??
According to my twisted logic - I actually call hand 1 and fold hand 2
with my stacksize and the maximun loss being minimal i can afford to play against the odds in hand 1...

phantom_lord

I think he just made a mistake, although we'll never know now....phuppin' mustard forum.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

luke was in the sb, rob was utg +x.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

u sure? read the first page of the thread

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I read it - they are wrong AFAIR

both of them?? maybe, but I thought luke crai on the turn? i wasn't really paying attention tho.

shoutman

You are wrong Lloyd I was sb, Mark was BB. And if I remember correctly rob pushed the turn.

Now after reading various arguements and having more of a think about it, it was a -ev call, however I dont think for a second that it was a shockingly bad call and I think it is only marginally -ev.

I was 99% certain BB was calling, I know that preflop I was behind, the maths of poker, odds etc is definitely not my strong point, however I was of the opinion that If I hit two pair or better off the flop or pair + strong draw then happy days and I'm quite happy geting my chips in the middle. I know I'm not getting a flop like that very often however I think implied odds are close enough to being there, especially with big stack BB there. Am I way off here?

Simple yes no will do,