is this blindingly obvious?

ullu

What I did on the river seemed like the right thing to do at the time, I'm just looking for peoples lines. It's standard until then.


1/2 6 max

I have KK on the button and it's folded to me so I make it $7. The big blind (28/8) calls with $200 behind, I cover. He's only been at the table for a few minutes and I've been raise happy in that time, taking down most pots on the flop where he's been my only opponent.

Flop: 2h 8s 9c

Checked to me, I bet $12 which is called

Turn: 4s

As above, this time I bet $25

River: 5s

Big blind bets out $65.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

handsfree

i call too. there should be no draws there. a set is possible but i pay off here all the time. As 9s would be a sickener.

BigCityBanker

lloyd - if he had an up and down straight draw on the flop with 89 he may have been holding 67 - the 5 on the river got him there? So the draws are not backdoor.

phantom_lord

bet more on every street.I'd call the river but expect to be beat here alot.

ullu

phantom_lord wrote:

bet more on every street.I'd call the river but expect to be beat here alot.

Surely $10-12 into $15 on flop is correct and $25 into $38 is what I'd tend towards here, definitely never more than $30. What would you be betting here, assuming the action and preflop raise are the same?

BigCityBanker

Im not sure a call is the right move here.

Killme00

This is very tough to get away from...i would call but still expect to be beaten

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

Im not sure a call is the right move here.

we only need to be ahead here something like 33% of the time for a call to be profitable, i think?

ullu wrote:

Surely $10-12 into $15 on flop is correct and $25 into $38 is what I'd tend towards here, definitely never more than $30. What would you be betting here, assuming the action and preflop raise are the same?

yeah that's fine, it's just that you should have bet more pf. which would mean you're betting more on the rest of the streets.

Hectorjelly

the bet sizes are fine. Id call the river as he could have basically anything here, from 2 pair to a missed st8 draw or jacks.

Hectorjelly

phantom_lord wrote:

yeah that's fine, it's just that you should have bet more pf.

????

$7 is fine, as would be $6

ullu

phantom_lord wrote:

yeah that's fine, it's just that you should have bet more pf. which would mean you're betting more on the rest of the streets.

$7 is the pot, any more and you're probably going to lose action from a whole range of hands that you want to call you.

ianmc38

I'd probably fold the river but I think it's marginal either way. And I think the bet sizing is fine as well.

phantom_lord

Hectorjelly wrote:

????

$7 is fine, as would be $6

actually yeah come to think of it, I'd go 4 at .5/1, so that's pretty much the same as 7-9 at 1/2.


do we ever check the turn?

Bandana boy

Bet sizing is optimum here
$65 is a bit strange here
I would expect a made straight to be looking to get paid and a bet of no more than 50 would be more likely then
I think a hand that beats Ks before the river to have raised you on the turn unless he has a rivered two pair i think your in good shape here a lot
So call is good

For the love of Tiffany i hope u didnt raise

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ianmc38

From the last few k hands ive played recently at 1/2, the check call 2 streets and pump the river line is nearly always a made hand. The old chestnut of wanting to get paid with monsters doesnt seem to hold true anymore as i see more and more people overbetting and overbet shoving (me included) with monsters

robinlacey

i'd call but i wouldn't like it too much

opr

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No.

I would often check this turn. The flops pretty dry. This will sometimes be a set. If we check we also induce a bluff on the river or we can value bet. I don't think he calls 3 barrels here with TP.

Why do you think checking is so bad ?

Opr

phantom_lord

opr wrote:

Why do you think checking is so bad ?

because he plays too many tournaments

Ste05

Yep, I'd call pretty quick and re-load if I'm beaten.

Bandana boy

but he will call 2 barrels with TJ and maybe bluff the river he will call 3 barrells with JJ and QQ

Personally I think checking the turn is not awful but that is just cause I will be raising betting flop checking turn and betting re-raising river a lot with weaker hands than KK

sikes

Bandana boy wrote:

Personally I think checking the turn is not awful but that is just cause I will be raising betting flop checking turn and betting re-raising river a lot with weaker hands than KK

you will be losing far too much value by checking the turn and taking this line on the river, in fact this is prob major spew.

I assume you do this to induce bluffs by missed draws?

opr

Bandana boy wrote:

but he will call 2 barrels with TJ and maybe bluff the river he will call 3 barrells with JJ and QQ

Personally I think checking the turn is not awful but that is just cause I will be raising betting flop checking turn and betting re-raising river a lot with weaker hands than KK

We have one pair.

Opr

opr

sikes wrote:

you will be losing far too much value by checking the turn and taking this line on the river, in fact this is prob major spew.

I assume you do this to induce bluffs by missed draws?

No , i don't see all these magic draws that people keep talking about. Maybe 10,J but he is pretty bad if he is calling with this OOP.

Opr

sikes

opr wrote:

No , i don't see all these magic draws that people keep talking about. Maybe 10,J but he is pretty bad if he is calling with this OOP.

Opr

i never said there were many draws out there.

I am wondering why Bandana Boy said to check the turn then go out and re-raise the river with a lot worse than KK. In this case its turning KK into a bluff.

I don't mind checking the turn, esp against an unkown, but taking the line above on the river is just suicide.

opr

sikes wrote:

i never said there were many draws out there.

I am wondering why Bandana Boy said to check the turn then go out and then re-raise the river with a lot worse than KK. This is turning KK into a bluff.

I don't mind checking the turn, esp against an unkown, but taking the line above on the river is just suicide.

Agreed sorry misread your post

Opr

Norwich Fan Rob

i would usually check the turn here.
by betting the turn, we are building the pot with 1 pair marginal hand.
u are now priced in to paying off marginal river bet, and thus playing a reasonably big pot.
it is likely the villian does not have many outs on the river to pass us out, certainly no more than a 10% chance a lot of the time.

by checking the turn, we can then extract a call out of villian with 9x, TT or JJ on the river if he checks to us, or we can just call and control the pot if he leads at it.

furthermore, our line of betting flop , then checking turn looks like a continuation bet, we maximise the chance villian will bluff river with a wider range, ie JT etc, if he does have a missed draw, as it looks like we have overs, had one shot and gave up.

to summarise , by checking turn we maximise our win if villian has nothing or missed draw, we minimise our loss if villian has us beat.
we can still bet the river if checked to again, thereby not losing much value, controlling the bet, and even getting a call from some hands like small pps that may give up if we had bet every street.

i do not like betting this turn.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ditpoker

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

to summarise , by checking turn we maximise our win if villian has nothing or missed draw, we minimise our loss if villian has us beat.we can still bet the river if checked to again, thereby not losing much value, controlling the bet, and even getting a call from some hands like small pps that may give up if we had bet every street.

this part of what rob says is what it comes down to. Lloyd you're talking about being aggressive and getting as much money in the pot as possible when ahead, the thing is the though we don't KNOW we're ahead. you will win several $30-40 pots here with KK, but lose $300 pots.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I will more often than not be playing the top of my range in a similiar fashion to missed overcards, a flopped pair, a smaller pair - and such, would expect to be often bluffed on the end by this player in the manner played out.

For you to be betting 3/4 pot on the flop and turn, with missed over-cards and weak holdings as your standard line is very exploitable and definitely -EV. I doubt any player will be bluffing you, however you will be bleeding chips when they value bet the river.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ullu

Result: I called and he showed 66.

ianmc38

I'd bet this turn far more than I'd check it.

opr

Lloyd,

Not going to go into much details cause i think Rob did a good job on explaining why we check.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

As such, while I will sometimes take it down on the turn against a weak hand and miss a bluff on the river; and will sometimes inflate the pot when beat

I think you more on or less sum up yourself here why betting this turn is bad. Basically against good players we will get stacked when they have a set. When they have a hand that we beat generally they will fold.

In this situation were he had 66 a good player would have folded the turn. If we check as rob says it looks like we have given up with missed overs. He will now bet the river or will call our value bet.

By betting we inflate a pot without really knowing if we are ahead. The main thing we achieve by checking is that we are in control of the pot.

Opr

opr

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd bet this turn far more than I'd check it.

Why ? I really don't understand how betting this turn is a good thing.

Opr

Ste05

I bet this turn alot too, I'm aggressive Post Flop and will fire multiple bullets when needed, I'll bet here with a variety of hands such as AA, KK, AK, AQ, 10J, 67, 910, etc. here, usually if I continuation bet on a flop like this, I'll fire again if checked to. (I might check the flop sometimes with AK, AQ, or other missed overs because I often like a delayed continuation bet) If you routinely check this turn your continuation bets on flops like this will soon lose credibility, and you will begin to be very readable (one way or the other, big hands or simply blind continuation bets - one of the biggest mistakes I see at these levels). How I view this flop is as follows:

It misses the vast majority of our raising range and either:
(a) hits our opponent a huge % of the time to varying degrees and certainly enough not to fold to one standard continuation bet (78, 67, 910, 10J, 9J, 89, 88, 99); and also
(b) doesn't scare another large % of their range (55, 66, 77, 1010, JJ, QQ).
So they will call this flop bet with nearly the same range they'll call our Pre-Flop raise with.

So another 2/3 pot bet I expect to get called by alot of weaker hands here. I'm all for pot control usually, but I have a hand at the very top of my range, and I feel I'm still up against a very wide range from my opponent. And in my mind this is a good spot to be in. When I'm in this position I like to bet.

Obviously it all depends on who the opponent is and how he views us, but my default would be to bet here and expect calls from looooads more hands then just 88, 99 and 89.

Also a hugely important factor is that we will have position on the River. So we still have some control over the final pot size.

I play near enough to a 26-8/15-20 game and these spots are what I need to make the rest of my 2 barrels profitable. Often times I'll fire 2 bullets and I need KK to be in this range to make our 2 barrels with AK, AQ, (or whatever other crap we're raising with on the button when it's folded to us), work.

Although if you are an 18/8 (and you think your opponent recognises this) then checking is probably better. Because as our image stands we are unlikely to get called by a worse hand/draw and catching a bluff on the River is more valuable than betting here.

So to sum up, I have a hand at the top of my range, my hand is basically still very undefined and I want to charge draws, weaker one pair hands and not let a scare card fall that kills my action (any A, K, Q and probably J scares my opponent). So in my mind this is a good spot for a bet, alot of it depends on history with my opponent but I'll usually bet here and see what happens on the River, because we are in position.

opr

Ste ,

Thanks for the excellent reply

Ste05 wrote:

I bet this turn alot too, I'm aggressive Post Flop and will fire multiple bullets when needed, I'll bet here with a variety of hands such as AA, KK, AK, AQ, 10J, 67, 910, etc. here, usually if I continuation bet on a flop like this, I'll fire again if checked to. (I might check the flop sometimes with AK, AQ, or other missed overs because I often like a delayed continuation bet) If you routinely check this turn your continuation bets on flops like this will soon lose credibility, and you will begin to be very readable (one way or the other, big hands or simply blind continuation bets - one of the biggest mistakes I see at these levels).

I think the sutilty of knowing when not to contination bet is very complex and something i think most players don't even think about.

Ste05 wrote:

How I view this flop is as follows:
It misses the vast majority of our raising range and either:
(a) hits our opponent a huge % of the time to varying degrees and certainly enough not to fold to one standard continuation bet (78, 67, 910, 10J, 9J, 89, 88, 99); and also
(b) doesn't scare another large % of their range (55, 66, 77, 1010, JJ, QQ).
So they will call this flop bet with nearly the same range they'll call our Pre-Flop raise with.

I think your range is way too large here. He is calling OOP against one player.Their is no value in the call with these type of drawing hands and generally he knows that it must hit him hard to be able to play back. So i really don't see the type of drawing hands you discuss calling. JJ and QQ would reraise alot here so i think the range is pretty narrow.

Ste05 wrote:

Also a hugely important factor is that we will have position on the River. So we still have some control over the final pot size.

I play near enough to a 26-8/15-20 game and these spots are what I need to make the rest of my 2 barrels profitable. Often times I'll fire 2 bullets and I need KK to be in this range to make our 2 barrels with AK, AQ, (or whatever other crap we're raising with on the button when it's folded to us), work.

Although if you are an 18/8 (and you think your opponent recognises this) then checking is probably better. Because as our image stands we are unlikely to get called by a worse hand/draw and catching a bluff on the River is more valuable than betting here.

KK is still very much in my range here. Most people at this level are not observent enough to notice that i only second barrel with KK after being called on a dry fold. And as with all things in poker its not something that i do 100% of the time.

Ste05 wrote:

So to sum up, I have a hand at the top of my range, my hand is basically still very undefined and I want to charge draws, weaker one pair hands and not let a scare card fall that kills my action (any A, K, Q and probably J scares my opponent). So in my mind this is a good spot for a bet, alot of it depends on history with my opponent but I'll usually bet here and see what happens on the River, because we are in position.

I think it is a very small % of the time that Villian has a straight draw here. I am quite happy to take the risk that he will draw out with set or 2 pair as generally its at most 10% of the time.

The only real reason i see for second barreling and you do touch apon it in bits of this posts is if i had a really lag image at the table and i think people will call with down with anything.

Ste05 wrote:

So another 2/3 pot bet I expect to get called by alot of weaker hands here. I'm all for pot control usually, but I have a hand at the very top of my range, and I feel I'm still up against a very wide range from my opponent. And in my mind this is a good spot to be in. When I'm in this position I like to bet.

Obviously it all depends on who the opponent is and how he views us, but my default would be to bet here and expect calls from looooads more hands then just 88, 99 and 89.

I think this is what is KEY to betting or checking the turn.

I think alot of hands we beat here will fold to the second barrel. This is very bad.
Even if you disagree with this and they don't fold almost certainly all hands bar QQ ,JJ which i think are unlikely will fold to a 3rd shot on the river ?

So what have you gained ? If we check the turn we get to value bet the river which is the same as the second barrel ? It has the added bonuses of the times we induce a bluff, and also the times we will lose much less when villian has a set.

Opr

Hectorjelly

Always betting here, and always checking here both really suck

cardshark202

I bet this turn vs like 90% of all opponents like 90% of the time

Ste05

As usual HJ manages to say in one line what it takes me a bloody book to say in an arsey roundabout way.

opr, I'll respond to your post tomorrow, just finished a long session where the Tribeca Random Number Generator managed to kicked me in the balls so often it's foot must be bruised. (Random my arse) But yeah I think this is a good discussion.

sikes

Ste05 wrote:

I play near enough to a 26-8/15-20 game and these spots are what I need to make the rest of my 2 barrels profitable. Often times I'll fire 2 bullets and I need KK to be in this range to make our 2 barrels with AK, AQ, (or whatever other crap we're raising with on the button when it's folded to us), work.

I would bet here for the same reasons that I woulndn't second barrell the turn,
we are getting called by a wide variety of hands. A second barrell on this
turn, in general, is really bad as we have very little folding equity,
especially at the lower stakes.

Our second barrells are profitable becuase you have a spot where you believe:
a) someone is prob floating you when ur oop
b) oppoenent has shown weakness and is capable of laying down hands
c) a scare card has hit the turn.

Our second barrels will get respect, because we pick spots to do it in that make sense, not because we bet overpairs on boards like this.

Bandana boy

sikes wrote:

i never said there were many draws out there.

I am wondering why Bandana Boy said to check the turn then go out and re-raise the river with a lot worse than KK. In this case its turning KK into a bluff.

I don't mind checking the turn, esp against an unkown, but taking the line above on the river is just suicide.

I am not suggesting he check turn and reraise river
in fact i am suggesting that re-raising the river is insane here after the turn call

I am saying that checking the turn here is not awful

My raising range and cont bet includes alot of hands weaker than KK
On those occasions I will sometimes bet the turn sometimes check the turn and raise the river.
So following a similar line when you have a decent hand is sometimes necessary

sikes

Bandana boy wrote:

So following a similar line when you have a decent hand is sometimes necessary

Our hand is not strong enough to stand a call from our raise on the river, so its a bluff.

opr

Ste05 wrote:

As usual HJ manages to say in one line what it takes me a bloody book to say in an arsey roundabout way.

opr, I'll respond to your post tomorrow, just finished a long session where the Tribeca Random Number Generator managed to kicked me in the balls so often it's foot must be bruised. (Random my arse) But yeah I think this is a good discussion.

Thanks Ste. You see in this situation i would check far far more than i would bet mainly because i can see and i understand all the reasons why this is good. I would really like to understand why people bet as if i could see this it would help me mix things up better.

Like i am amazed that CS says he would bet this like 90% of the time :eek: I don't know much about his game but i suppose if he plays lag i can understand the reasons behind it.

As HJ says doing one or the other all the time is pretty bad and i don't check all the time but this is more to mix things up than any understanding of what we gain by betting.

Opr

Ste05

sikes wrote:

Our second barrels will get respect, because we pick spots to do it in that make sense, not because we bet overpairs on boards like this.

OK, are you basically agreeing with me, but telling me how you identify where a second barrel works?? If so, yes those are all good reasons for identifying where a second barrel will be effective. But this is a fairly standard button v blind hand, alot of how to play it would depend on the flow of the game, so there will be a degree of metagame going on, even at these levels. Firing here will make our later second barrels more scary to him, (and if he plays back, more scary to us, etc. etc.) but it just has to be added in to our thinking about whether it makes sense or not. It's just another layer to work with.

How often will it be folded around to me on the button, I raise, he calls, he checks the flop, I continuation bet, he calls, Turn... well let's see what I have, and what I think he'll do, etc. etc..... and back into playing Poker but (as HJ so amply put it) always checking and always firing here is bad with whatever we have. But I'll usually fire with KK, but I think you were agreeing with betting the turn.

@ Opr:

Yep that all makes sense, this is a very general type of hand, and as I've alluded to a few times before, alot of what I'd do would depend on what's been going on, history between the opponents and the general flow of the game. But I'll usually bet here alot more often than I'll check. I can't see him folding TP too often but will be highly unlikely to bluff on a J, Q, K or A river. So we need another low card, for a bluff really (and we won't really like another low card TBH) and we'll still get that some of the times anyway even if we fire here.

sikes

might have been getting wires crossed Ste.

I was making the point that I dont think that second barrelling this board is a good idea against a relatively unkown esp at these stakes for the same reason that betting KK is so profitable, betting AK, AQ, AJ etc is -ev.

But I agree, once we know more about the villain and table dynamics then we can start double barrling etc.

Ste05

Ahh yes, now I get you...:o

robinlacey

i think betting the turn here is fine,i wouldn't always do it but at these stakes i'd do it more often than not.

what NFR is saying is true,but is much more important at 5/10 and up where the standard is so much higher-at 1/2 you will get called by a lot of hands on this turn,so its often worth a bet,though you need to check sometimes too...

even at 10/20 or whatever i would often bet again here (but then again i fire a lot of second barrells),at 1/2 i would probably bet the turn about 75% of the time.

Norwich Fan Rob

what i was saying is probably more geared to a) higher stakes and b) stacks being deep, also i dont fire a huge amount of 2nd barrels compared to the likes of Reggie and some of the others, therefore, we all have differing options, tis what makes the game so great.
I still think u dont lose a huge amount of value by checking the turn here, yet do control the pot a lot more which really is important, in cash games anyway, but i also have no major problem betting the turn in a low level cash game against a very poor station, or a shallow stacked tourney.