Children calling teachers by first name

Tom Dunne

I haven't been in a classroom in years (apart from third level) and I don't have kids, but I was recently talking to parents who mentioned that their kids call their teacher by their first name.

It struck me as, well, all warm and fuzzy and less formal, but conversely the old nugget of familiarity breeding contempt sprung to mind. Given the discipline problems in schools these days, is this one less layer of respect for primary and secondary teachers?

So, how do teachers feel about this? What do parents think?

mike65

A teacher should be the source of a certain low-level fear.

Mike.

Medina

Not sure I can agree with the low level fear.
I would say the source of a high level of expectation of fun and excitement.
I recently came back from Asia where I was teaching and the kids called us by our first names.
I have to say I found that being a source of fear demotivated the children and they paid less attention.
Punishment by becoming an object of attention in the classroom and speaking honestly with the children worked a lot better.
It does feel a bit familiar, and of course a teacher has to have a serious face so the kids know when the teacher is not happy. My favourite tactic was to just stare at the offender until they squirmed visibly. This seemed to work well with the class going silent and staring at me and the kid in trouble!

hunnymonster

I'm in my 30's and I recently met my primary school teacher. He is a friend of my mum's but I still can't bring myself to call him anything except Master X. I'm sure it sounds dodgy to anyone who didn't grow up in small town Ireland!


I like my students to address me by my title at first. As I get to know them, a mutual respect develops and the can call me by my first name. My students are all adults though ao it's a slightly different situation.

r3nu4l

We had a woodwork teacher many years ago that allowed us to call him by his first name...as first years we all thought this was cool but as time went on we took a more cynical attitude as it just felt like he was trying to be 'cool and hip with the students, man' :rolleyes:

So long as the teacher is good at his/her job I don't really care. I had a Maths teacher who was also a local politician and he was the worst teacher I ever had in my life, even today I feel angry that there is no way to drum people like him out of his job, he was pathetic.

Fast_Mover

I think that in Educate Together Schools, pupils call their teachers by their first name?..Anyone know if that's true?

Tom Dunne

mike65 wrote:

A teacher should be the source of a certain low-level fear.

Mike.

Fear? Or respect?

I certainly believe students (be they primary, secondary or in my case, third level) should have a level of respect for a teacher. But I think the teacher must also instill the sense of respect in them by being a source of inspiration, not some crusty old todger trying to be 'cool with the kids'.

peckerhead

I used to take great pride in being able to get down and rap with my students, and look what username I ended up with...

Trotter

Its got to be respect as opposed to fear in my opinion. However, some children who may be disruptive or at times nasty, need to fear the conseqences of their actions.

For example, a child should fear the idea of their teacher ringing their parents to complain about behaviour, but not necessarily fear the teacher.

In an ideal world, the children will be disappointed to disappoint the teacher.. if that makes sense.

In the real world, the teacher should have respect and act in a way that maintains that respect. You can be firm and fair and nice to children, but you need to be able to put your foot down if needs be.

Im not into the first name craic at all. The children should be happy to call you by your title.. i.e. Miss, or Teacher, Sir etc.. but they should know who is in charge ultimately. For some kids it makes them feel safe to have a strong authority in the classroom.

Tom Dunne

Trotter wrote:

but they should know who is in charge ultimately

This is the core of the matter, I think.

You may be surprised to learn that with all the talk of discipline problems at second level, it's acutally creeping into third level too. I've had to warn students that I would throw them out for disrupting lectures. Once it was nipped in the bud, I could see a change in attitude. They knew they could have the craic, but they also knew who was in charge.

killbillvol2

I think it's pretty much standard in Gaelscoileanna; Múinteoir Bobby, Muinteoir Sile. Not sure about Educate Together.

In my school they call the men Sir and the women Miss. In conversations between the kids I'm refered to variously as "my sir", "our sir", "the sir" etc. (And if I've got on the wrong side of someone by a selection of choice phrases!). That seems to be the same for all the schools in the area and wasn't any sort of rule imposed at any stage. It's just a convention that goes back a few generations.

It wouldn't really bother me one way or another but I think it sounds stupid. A guy worked in my school a few years ago and allowed the kids to call him by his first name. They thought he was an asshole for trying to be cool, rode roughshod over him and he left. (Aren't kids great judges of character sometimes? ).

I prefer the parents to call me by my first name but some of them find that difficult, especially if I've taught them!

GAA widow

I worked in an Educate together school for a while and the children addressed teachers by their first name - initially i thought that this would lead to an air of overfamiliarity between teacher/pupil but i felt that there was the same amount of mutual respect as if i was addressed as "ms. ___". i was addressed by my first name, but i was still their teacher, not their buddy!!

if a child is initiated into calling a teacher by their first name when they start school there is no novelty factor in calling a teacher by their first name. i work in a school now where the norm is to be addressed as "ms. ____". However, if a child was to call me by my first name in this setting, it would come across as being quite cheeky, as it is not the done thing in the school.

i really like the way that teachers are referred to as "múinteoir máire" etc. in gaelscoileanna - i'd like to see that across the board - in primary schools anyway!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

r3nu4l wrote:

We had a woodwork teacher many years ago that allowed us to call him by his first name...as first years we all thought this was cool but as time went on we took a more cynical attitude as it just felt like he was trying to be 'cool and hip with the students, man' :rolleyes:

So long as the teacher is good at his/her job I don't really care. I had a Maths teacher who was also a local politician and he was the worst teacher I ever had in my life, even today I feel angry that there is no way to drum people like him out of his job, he was pathetic.

Link removed by moderator. Please read the charter, especially section 2 - "be aware that you risk a ban if the line is crossed or if
names are used to personally criticise a person or persons".

Trotter

This has the potential to be a very good discussion.. please don't anybody ruin it by turning it into another "I had a crap teacher who's name was".. thread as that will get you banned from this forum for 2 months.

Have a most excellent day

ArthurDent

Fast_Mover wrote:

I think that in Educate Together Schools, pupils call their teachers by their first name?..Anyone know if that's true?

In Educate Together schools Everybody, teachers, pupils, other staff, visitors are introduced by their first names. The only problem I have with it is that you often don't know the teachers surnames, if you want to ring up and talk to someone etc . I have 2 boys in ET school and I don't think there is any lack of respect because of first names, a trip to X's (Principal's)office is definitley as undesirable as a trip to Ms/Mr X's office (as my 6 year old can recently attest to - funnily enough rugby tackling another Sen Inf in the corridor wasn't a particularly clever choice!!:D )

squishywishy

As a student teacher i find the differences between the way you are addressed in different schools very different.

I have been called Miss in one school and Teacher X in another and Ms X in another.

In no school have i been called by my first name and i must admit i am glad.

as confident as i am in my own teaching and discipline abilities i do feel it would have an effect on the relationship between my students and I.

calling people by official titles is a fact of life and one we need to teach our children and children in our care, We wouldnt call our bank manager Joe or Billy or a Garda Eddie.

Life Lessons must be learnt

claire h

Well, there's a big difference between calling a teacher by their first name when it's the standard practice in the school and calling them by their first name when all the other teachers are referred to by their titles. The former is fine within a certain environment (mutual respect, kids willing to learn, etc. - unfortunately this is not the case in most schools), the latter almost always comes across as trying too hard and/or not properly establishing authority.

simu

GAA widow wrote:

i really like the way that teachers are referred to as "múinteoir máire" etc. in gaelscoileanna - i'd like to see that across the board - in primary schools anyway!

Not all Gaelscoileanna. Ours were Bean Uí/Iníon Uí/An Máistir Ó X and you'd address them as just "a mhúinteoir".

"Múinteoir Máire" etc sounds like baby talk imho! I don't see the harm in a bit of formality.

RealJohn

Where I work, the policy is that the students call us by our first names, with a view to developing a mutual respect for the teacher both as a teacher and a person. Supposedly makes us more approachable.

Personally, I'd prefer to be referred to by my surname but it works ok for us anyway.

snickerpuss

simu wrote:

Not all Gaelscoileanna. Ours were Bean Uí/Iníon Uí/An Máistir Ó X and you'd address them as just "a mhúinteoir".

"Múinteoir Máire" etc sounds like baby talk imho! I don't see the harm in a bit of formality.

My brother is in a secondary Gaelscoil and everyone is called 'Muinteoir whatever' the main problem is that at least 50% of the female teaching staff are called Máire, super confusing when you're calling them or they call you. I do like it though, we had Bean/Iníon/Máistir in primary school, muinteoir isn't all that different.

mastermind2005

wonder why realjohn should be refereed to by his surname?, nobody in this world has a right to instill fear in anyone (specially children), period... primary teachers are responsible for nurturing and helping developing the interpersonal skills in these young people from an early age… which is a vital role, Period. so i think it makes more sence to have as little in between teacher and student as possible.

In my opinion with the English language these kids will take little if anything into adulthood, however the interpersonal skills they learn from communication at such an early stage are hugly benificial trought their lives and those first years are really so valuable in the sence that at that age the individual is most impresionable.

GAA widow

mastermind2005 wrote:

wonder why realjohn should be refereed to by his surname?, nobody in this world has a right to instill fear in anyone (specially children), period... primary teachers are responsible for nurturing and helping developing the interpersonal skills in these young people from an early age… which is a vital role, Period. so i think it makes more sence to have as little in between teacher and student as possible.

In my opinion with the English language these kids will take little if anything into adulthood, however the interpersonal skills they learn from communication at such an early stage are hugly benificial trought their lives and those first years are really so valuable in the sence that at that age the individual is most impresionable.

How does referring to a person by their surname i.e. "mr. ..." or "ms. ...." instill fear in children?.......just curious.......

monkeyfudge

Every now and then one of the adults I teach will call me 'sir'

Makes me cringe every time....

gaeilgegrinds

Surely there is a stark difference between fear and respect?

shortemer

A good teacher does not rely on things like forms of address for respect - he or she earns it through all his or her dealings with students and their parents.

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

annabel

I have to say I don't think it would bother me if it was from day one . I know when i was in a school last year it eas a huge thing if they found out your first name and it got quite arkward .

So in a way it's better if they know your name right off . In my school most of students have worked out I am a student teacher but this has not changed their level of respect for me . kind of same thing isn't it ?

randylonghorn

In the secondary school I attended, there was a sort of unwritten policy that Leaving Certs could drop the formal usage with teachers, especially during extra-curricular activities, or where we were in smaller groups (e.g. Hons classes). It was generally expected though that one would not address a teacher by his / her first name in the corridor surrounded by a bevy of staring first years, or generally take liberties.

I think it made a lot of sense, tbh. It tended to foster a couple of useful concepts, which were also underpinned in other ways by the staff / school:
(a) that we were approaching adulthood, and were therefore entitled to be treated more and more as adults ... but that that respect carried with it certain expectations as well.
(b) that rather than "them and us", we were in fact working together towards a common goal.


On the more general issue, honestly, I think whether teachers are called by their first name or a more formal usage is preferred can be a bit of a red herring. The important thing, as others have said, is that there is an appropriate relationship of mutual respect. Children are perfectly capable of being sensationally disrespectful to a teacher while addressing him / her formally and indeed keeping within every other "rule" as well, on the surface at least. Equally, if they respect a teacher, whether they address him as "Jack" or "Mr. X" becomes fairly irrelevant.

I think we sometimes confuse the concepts of respect and deference.

Crumble Froo

very interesting thread. im not sure what the policy in teh schools here is, but im working as a preschool teacher, caters for kids from a few months old, up till 4 years old. i think it's something like 95% of all kids here have been to a preschool before starting primary school, and they all call you either by your first name, or just 'teacher'.

monosharp

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I was recently talking to parents who mentioned that their kids call their teacher by their first name.

I'm working as an English teacher in Korea and my kids call me every curse word in the korean language.

Unbeknownst to them, I know what they are saying a lot of the time.

To the "Good kids" I'm Sonsangnim (teacher/Sir)

An Bradán Feasa

It all depends on the school you're in. I worked in a Secondary School and I was told "f*ck you, sir" by some pupils. So I don't think there's any more or any less respect when a teacher is called by their first name or not.

afino

ArthurDent wrote: »

In Educate Together schools Everybody, teachers, pupils, other staff, visitors are introduced by their first names. The only problem I have with it is that you often don't know the teachers surnames

I'm a parent of a child in an ET school and I must say really like the first name basis. It's really weird talking to another adult and saying "oh, Miss x.." Seems like a throwback to the old days and I'm much more comfortable calling the teacher (who is quite a bit my junior) by her first name.

The surname thing is funny though. We had to publish the teachers' surnames in our school mag 'cos nobody knew their full names!