Black Aces

bops

1/2 NLH Cash Game efective stacks 800 - 9/10 handed

I have AsAc in mid position and raise to 12.
(Standard raises have been from 7 to 17 - table is loose/gambol in general)
I have been playing fairly solid / aggressive in spots (ok - it's not me before you ask!!)
4 callers including SB who is very loose pf but playing passively postflop (This could be me!!)

Flop: 5 9 J - 2 hearts

Checked around
(Bad by me?)

Turn Heart

I bet 60

fold fold SB calls and fold

Heads up:
SB checks in the dark

River Heart - putting 4 Hearts on board

Me????

NeVeR

You have to check, My guess is either has a 9 or J and a low heart.
And yes you should have bet after the flop... I've lost so may times with AA when trying to trap.

ianmc38

Checking the flop is horrible....

I'd bet the river as a bluff.

shoutman

No point betting on the end, you are only being called if you are behind for the most part....

Bet the flop everytime, if you are playing tight aggressive the check will be slightly suspicious.... bet flop, bet turn...

phantom_lord

bet the flop obv, bet lesss on the turn, I may bet the river a bluff, check as standard.

bops

there's 180 in the pot, what should i risk otr if i feel like bluffing?? Is it worth the risk considering the call on the turn??

The flop check was obv bad, but there were 3 people to act after me and i was in the mood for check-raising!! bah!!!! (fair enough??)

phantom_lord

this isn't a spot to c/r.

bops

phantom_lord wrote:

this isn't a spot to c/r.

why??
i believe the table will bet here with TP or FD
EDIT: I'm happy to get all my stack in here against either! - i love my aces!!

Gholimoli

check behind on the river,your hand has some show down value.
if villain has called your turn bet with no heart then your hand could be good here plenty of times.
if he has called it with a heart draw then his draw has just come in .
i think checking behind here is best.

shoutman

TBH I dont see why anyone wouldnt check behind on the river...

I mean unless he has a weak holding or is afraid of a AJ type hand with the ace of hearts he will call with any heart here...

bops

the bit that gets me is the check in the dark

if he didn't do this and checked the river as normal - would this change anything??

What does the check in the dark say to you??

phantom_lord

bops wrote:

the bit that gets me is the check in the dark

if he didn't do this and checked the river as normal - would this change anything??

What does the check in the dark say to you??

don't alot people check behind here? so he may want a easy showdown?

shoutman

Sometimes people just do it to be cool and afterwards regret it(myself included)

I dont think it really makes a difference.

shoutman

If he wanted a easy showdown we are nearly always ahead here with aces, its not logical for him to be holding two pair here unless hes nuts.

bops

shoutman wrote:

If he wanted a easy showdown we are nearly always ahead here with aces

IMO it would be very -EV to call the turn bet and blind check the river if he was on a good (K/A) FD. - If he wanted an easy showdown, what could he have??

shoutman wrote:

its not logical for him to be holding two pair here unless hes nuts.

interesting - why??

sikes

check behind on the river. i would expect us to be good +80% of the time, but we are never getting a value bet on the end for obvious reasons.

ianmc38

The only reason i'd bet the river is because of the check in the dark. Default would be to check behind, but I dont think anyone checks a made flush in the dark. Maybe AhJ but even that would be a donktastic play.

A bet on the river certainly isn't a value bet!

shoutman

Granted you said he was loose preflop and passive post flop, but I think the following should be ruled out,

A) He has a set, calling preflop with any pocket pair is not awful as its deep stacked, but if he called and hit he is not check calling flop and turn with a set, when there is a flush draw out there.

B)Two Pair, No matter how loose someone is preflop, unless they are a terrible player you dont call in your sb after a preflop raise with the following combos, j9, 95, j5. They are just terrible hands, there is the possibility of the suited one gapper like j9 which people do like to play but you dont play it from your sb with a raise behind you also if he hit his hand I still dont see why he would check call the turn (maybe he is wary of you holding flush given that you took a free card on the flop? and is planning on check calling rest of hand, but this would be a bad line imo.)

Even if this was the case a lot more of the time you would see him with maybe AJ or something like this, if he has a heart he will call unless you put in a big bet and over the long term I just think that it is definately -ev to be betting at the end here, if he has nut flush you are getting reraised and are insta mucking, if he has no flush granted you are picking up the pot anyway but I think aa is ahead here enough times to just check behind.

Obviously im not considering him jamming two pair on the turn or river as you havent included what the cards were in your op.

(I'm guessing what happened was he checked dark with two pair and if you had bet river opponent was insta folding, once again I think checking behind is almost always the correct move unless you have a very good read)

ianmc38

Ive seen people with way worse hands than J9, 95 and J5 appear before but you make some good points!

bops

ok ok ok

The guy with AA was a very good aggressive player (but having a poor night which led to a couple of dodgy decisions)

I was the terrible player with 95s in the SB

I have never checked in the dark before, ever!, but HU against this opponent i knew that if i checked the river, heart or no heart, i was facing a big bet which would put me under pressure. I was fairly confident i was ahead on the turn, i just didn't want to be playing for my stack.

I would have probably (unhappily) called a river bet of 100, but no more

he checked it thankfully


before the onslaught, this is not a post about how i cracked aces with muck - aren't i the best - i just found it very interesting imo. If the flop was bet i would have made 800 yoyo's so i did play it poorly anyways

BigCityBanker

Bops - you flopped two pair and checked

The opponenent - raised to the middle of the preflop raising range, why didnt he go tot he upper end if that was the table norm, he checked the flop with a FD out there.

Both of you guys raped this hand and im not even considering your preflop call.

You are alomost certainly ahead of the preflop raiser when you hit two pair. He has a hand he likes and a big stack in front of him! How do you expect to get that stack into the middle if you dont bet it?

bops

Hi Noel

I was in first position and was waiting for Mr aggressive preflop raiser to bet at it! - I was set for the c/r

He checked it which was horrible for both of us considering the turn card.

shoutman

Sorry bops, didnt mean to say you were a terrrible player, i try to be at best an abc player anyway so what do I know lol.

bops

lol no appology necessary shoutman

but thanks for your replies, you make some very good points (except the "its not logical for him to be holding two pair here unless hes nuts" bit )

Ste05

You both should have bet this flop.

Bops you so you could try and get all of the PFR's money, not try and let him fold an over pair with a C/R. This shows too much strength unless you're continually C/R'ing with all sorts of garbage.

And the AA should have bet when checked to because this is a savagely draw heavy board and he'll get calls from all kinds of hands.

Gholimoli

bops wrote:

i knew that if i checked the river, heart or no heart, i was facing a big bet which would put me under pressure.

based on the above

bops wrote:

i did play it poorly anyways

[/QUOTE]
i think you are being too kind to your self here.

bops

Ste05 wrote:

You both should have bet this flop.

Bops you so you could try and get all of the PFR's money, not try and let him fold an over pair with a C/R. This shows too much strength unless you're continually C/R'ing with all sorts of garbage.

I was happy to c/r the flop and take it down - i did not want to play for stacks at this point. Most times i'd bet out at this flop, but with the table dynamics at the time i chose not too.

I don't c/r with garbage - only the very odd time when i see massive weekness.

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

based on the above
i think you are being too kind to your self here.

Your post has no substance/advice/information
If you have something useful to add - say it
if not and you just want to make a childish dig - just fcuk off

Ste05

bops wrote:

I was happy to c/r the flop and take it down - i did not want to play for stacks at this point. Most times i'd bet out at this flop, but with the table dynamics at the time i chose not too.

I don't c/r with garbage - only the very odd time when i see massive weekness.

Well that's fair enough, each to their own and if you were happy to lock up a profit there and then that's fine, but long term betting is the play that earns more money, although this time you could have lost your whole stack, so I suppose it comes down to how close to the Variance fairly you like to venture.

That's why I mentioned it, although why do you call Pre-Flop and then seek to remove all the implied odds, you needed to call in the first place, by looking to take the pot down now. I'm not having a go, I'm just pointing out something that might not have crossed your mind, if you are playing hands like 95s OOP in raised pots you really need to embrace the variance and really try and get the maximum out of these hands when they hit. In my mind you should be either (a) folding these hands; or (b) playing them, and then jumping down the throats of over pairs TPTK's when you hit hard enough and in my mind bottom 2 is probably enough.

Other wise all the other times you call with 95s and fold will add up and make it a losing play.

As for C/R'ing with garbage, there's nothing wrong with that, if you pick your moments. I was just only do a C/R if I you are continually C/R'ing very light and you thought that was the better way of getting the PFR AI on this flop. But certainly my default is to lead out. But we have different mind sets in this hand, so it doesn't matter. I'd try and get him AI and risk getting out drawn, and you are happy to lock up a profit now.

sikes

ianmc38 wrote:

A bet on the river certainly isn't a value bet!

wasn't disagreeing about the river bluff. I think its a good play in general, but i think the times we are beat here, its a rivered flush much more than a 2 pair so we have too little FE against his range to make the play profitable.

Hectorjelly

this hand was played so badly on both sides I think they should of agreed to give the pot to the dealer

Lafortezza

Keep it polite etcetc, attack post not poster

Marq

Hectorjelly wrote:

this hand was played so badly on both sides I think they should of agreed to give the pot to the dealer

Agreed, mainly because if every time a pot came up where both sides played like total donks the pot went to the dealer I'd be extremely rich.

bops

Ste05 wrote:

Well that's fair enough, each to their own and if you were happy to lock up a profit there and then that's fine, but long term betting is the play that earns more money, although this time you could have lost your whole stack, so I suppose it comes down to how close to the Variance fairly you like to venture.

That's why I mentioned it, although why do you call Pre-Flop and then seek to remove all the implied odds, you needed to call in the first place, by looking to take the pot down now. I'm not having a go, I'm just pointing out something that might not have crossed your mind, if you are playing hands like 95s OOP in raised pots you really need to embrace the variance and really try and get the maximum out of these hands when they hit. In my mind you should be either (a) folding these hands; or (b) playing them, and then jumping down the throats of over pairs TPTK's when you hit hard enough and in my mind bottom 2 is probably enough.

Other wise all the other times you call with 95s and fold will add up and make it a losing play.

As for C/R'ing with garbage, there's nothing wrong with that, if you pick your moments. I was just only do a C/R if I you are continually C/R'ing very light and you thought that was the better way of getting the PFR AI on this flop. But certainly my default is to lead out. But we have different mind sets in this hand, so it doesn't matter. I'd try and get him AI and risk getting out drawn, and you are happy to lock up a profit now.

It was getting late in the night and i had a healthy profit in front of me, which i was happy to take home. It was a very dangerous table (the most dangerous i have ever seen it there - stacks were going in every second hand).

I was determined to leave with a profit - I had a very successful Dec & Jan, but I had made a loss at the last 3 cash games and was determined to turn this around. If I bet out there and someone was on a flush draw they would have certainly rrai - and i wasn't in the mood for that - and look what would have happened - they would have hit the fkr twice!!

so you are dead right, if i wasn't gonna make the most out of my hand, i should have folded pf, but i was happy to peel off managable pots

Personally I believe the AA was played poorly, but i don't believe that I played the hand that bad, given my reasons for doing as I did.

Thanks for the intelligent response as per usual Ste

EDIT: Fk Ste you are dead right - i shudda just gone home when i was happy with the stack i had infront of me, instead of taking the risk of blowing it all. I think you are the first person to really change my stubborn views on a situation - fold pf and go home with winnings!!!! cheers! it took a few mins to sink in!

Ste05

bops wrote:

Personally I believe the AA was played poorly, but i don't believe that I played the hand that bad, given my reasons for doing as I did.

Well the AA was raped, and he deserved to lose the pot, and because we're all human, I suppose there's some excuse for your play, obviously we all know that we should not be taking into consideration those things when making a decision on a Poker hand, I'm sure you know not to worry about 3 losing sessions previously when making a decision, this hand could have not only guaranteed a win, but made more than you lost in the previous 3 sessions in multiples (assuming you lost a buy-in in each if the last 3) as the game lasts your whole life, but human nature is as it is. How about a happy medium, next time this happens, you should donate the ill gotten gains to the (Registered) Charity of HJ's choosing, we all know he has a favourite.

P.S. To be clear that is not a stab at 1PP, just to stop HJ picking the HJ benefit fund or something similar.

Hectorjelly

this is such an awful hand, first of preflop, cold calling a raise oop with 95s is awful. Doing it and then playing the hand well from then on would be bad, but calling and then playing it badly is insane. The only money that went into this pot after the flop were by the guy with aces, bops manages to hit 2 pair and never puts any money into the pot; never protecting his very vunerable, but almost certainly best hand, and not getting any vaule for it either. Its like an example hand of how not to play hold em!

The preflop call is bad
The flop check is ok, actually unlucky that aces checked behind
The turn check is really bad.
The river blind check is the worst of it all. Here you are getting absolutely NO value whatsover when you are ahead, but no doubt going to call a bet on the river if the guy already has a flush. This is a freeroll for the other player. Also we are setting ourselves up to fold the best hand from time to time.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

this is such an awful hand, blah blah bops is rubbish blah blah (Slightly ammended) Its like an example hand of how not to play hold em! (I like that bit!).

Hectorjelly wrote:

The preflop call is bad.

Fair enough, but it's a standard call for me

Hectorjelly wrote:

The flop check is ok, actually unlucky that aces checked behind

yep, i agree, i was ul

Hectorjelly wrote:

The turn check is really bad.

don't agree! - i believed i was ahead, but considering he checked the flop, there was a the posibility that he was drawing a free card OTF / or considering check/raising - holding AhXh - I believe that a really bad play here would be betting/reraising into the nuts!!

Hectorjelly wrote:

The river blind check is the worst of it all. Here you are getting absolutely NO value whatsover when you are ahead, but no doubt going to call a bet on the river if the guy already has a flush. This is a freeroll for the other player. Also we are setting ourselves up to fold the best hand from time to time

I disagree (surprisingly!!) I believe that my blind check is the key to me salvaging this hand. I am 100% positive that if I showed any weakness leading out/checking the river, heart or no heart - he (i've seen him do it on numerous occasions) who have put me all-in and i would have folded the best hand. In a way, i suppose i was lucky a heart fell. I was willing to call an acceptable river bet.

Ste05

bops wrote:

I am 100% positive that if I showed any weakness leading out/checking the river, heart or no heart - he (i've seen him do it on numerous occasions) who have put me all-in and i would have folded the best hand. In a way, i suppose i was lucky a heart fell. I was willing to call an acceptable river bet.

Surely he wouldn't have bet ~700/800 into a pot of ~160, (i.e. putting you All-In), but if he did, that would be a no brainer fold. And if he does this kind of thing continually, please tell me who this guy is and then BR me to play in any game he plays in. Because he's basically burning money or else he exercises the best game selection ever.

bops

Ste05 wrote:

Surely he wouldn't have bet ~700/800 into a pot of ~160, (i.e. putting you All-In), but if he did, that would be a no brainer fold. And if he does this kind of thing continually, please tell me who this guy is and then BR me to play in any game he plays in. Because he's basically burning money or else he exercises the best game selection ever.

No - you're right Ste, he had 600 odd behind at a guess

if there was a bet/call of say 100 on the turn the pot would have been 400ish, which may have led to an all-in otr
or if i bet 100 on the river, id' have been looking at a reraise of 200+ i'd guess.
I don't see why i should bet the river as it panned out, i'd have only been called by a hand that beats mine surely.

I still think the check in the dark is the best option for me as there is only 4 cards to improve my hand, whilst there are a possible 16 scare cards in the deck - any heart or pairing the other 2 board cards

Just to give you an idea of the "abnormal" betting patterns, here is one hand i remember roughly - it's shocking!!!!

Raise to 17 ish PF
4 players

Flop 458r (70)

PFR (SB) bet 30, call call fold

Turn A (now 2 clubs) (160)

PFR bet 75
RR to 400 !!!!!!!
Other player RRAI 580
PFR folds
other calls the 180

River blank (1320)
A8 vs A5 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that may help you understand my passive play!!

Ste05

LOL I'm the champ, I just saw your Edit of your post above. \o/ WooHoo!!

As for the River, I'd have never got there without betting previously, so I don't know what I'd have done, hence I have no opinion either way. As technically that should never arise.

As for the hand above, (ignoring the butchering of Pre-Flop) it's kind of a cooler hand, they both have to protect against the flush draw and so bet willing to get AI against what will be a high A or flush draw enough to make it profitable. Jump in there embrace the Variance and make mucho mucho more money.... Passive play is for girls ....

Gholimoli

Bobs ,
i really wonder how you ever make money from this game if you really play like you post and i believe you do.(apart from luck)
you are so far off even half decent poker its unreal.

stuff like "caling raises out of position with 95s is standad for me".
or "I knew if I checked I would be facing a difficult decision on the river so i checked" .

then you post a hand here and people offer you sound advice and you disagree with them.
i dont mind the disagreement but im yet to see a sound argument from you that actually made sense in any way.
"It was getting late in the night and i had a healthy profit in front of me, which i was happy to take home. It was a very dangerous table (the most dangerous i have ever seen it there - stacks were going in every second hand).

I was determined to leave with a profit - I had a very successful Dec & Jan, but I had made a loss at the last 3 cash games and was determined to turn this around. If I bet out there and someone was on a flush draw they would have certainly rrai - and i wasn't in the mood for that - and look what would have happened - they would have hit the fkr twice!!"

the above is really sound sound arguments for things to consider when playing a hand.
you are fooling your self in to thinking you are some amazing post flop player that will allow you to play a lot of more hands free-flop regardless of position or raises etc,but based on the way you play and the way you explain your play its clear that you are not and you make some really basic awful mistakes that not only does not give you an edge over opponents but the other way around.
This post must sound harsh but I think a lot of it is the truth and the sooner you relies it the sooner you become a better player.

mdwexford

who was the "really good aggressive player" with the aces?? it wasnt Sideshow was it??

this hand really is a mess.

id lead the flop and hope to get raised so you can get the lot in, which is probably what would have happened.

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

Bobs ,
i really wonder how you ever make money from this game if you really play like you post and i believe you do.(apart from luck)
you are so far off even half decent poker its unreal.

I'm not the one who keeps retiring - you must be a very unlucky good player

Gholimoli wrote:

stuff like "caling raises out of position with 95s is standad for me".

I like to see a lot of flops - just because i have a wide (no) range doesn't make me a bad poker player

Gholimoli wrote:

or "I knew if I checked I would be facing a difficult decision on the river so i checked" .

Misquote

Gholimoli wrote:

then you post a hand here and people offer you sound advice and you disagree with them.

Didn't disagree with anyone, listened to sound advice and discussed it

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont mind the disagreement but im yet to see a sound argument from you that actually made sense in any way.

fair enough - your (narrowminded) opinion

Gholimoli wrote:

the above is really sound sound arguments for things to consider when playing a hand.

thought i never made any sense??

Gholimoli wrote:

you are fooling your self in to thinking you are some amazing post flop player that will allow you to play a lot of more hands free-flop regardless of position or raises etc,

I don't think i'm amazing, i prefer to play the way i do than sit there and wait for AJ+ 99+ - it works for me and that's what matters

Gholimoli wrote:

but based on the way you play and the way you explain your play its clear that you are not and you make some really basic awful mistakes that not only does not give you an edge over opponents but the other way around.

The basic mistake (debateable) i made in this hand was not betting the flop, i posted the hand not because it was all great play, i posted it because I found it interesting, with so many fundamental errors in it by all concerned. There are so many ways this hand could have played out - but thats the fun in poker! It was not an example of how poker should be played!!

Gholimoli wrote:

This post must sound harsh but I think a lot of it is the truth and the sooner you relies it the sooner you become a better player.

Better player like you lol - harsh??
Good to see you back Gholi

bops

mdwexford wrote:

who was the "really good aggressive player" with the aces?? it wasnt Sideshow was it??

I believe he was at the table alright, but i am not in a position to devulge any such information!

mdwexford wrote:

this hand really is a mess.

Yup - Total!

mdwexford wrote:

id lead the flop and hope to get raised so you can get the lot in, which is probably what would have happened.

Yup - obvious, but where would the fun be in that?

Gholimoli

bops wrote:

Better player like you lol - harsh??

No man I meant a better player in your own league, I am in a different league, which requires an IQ of at least above 30+ to get to.
I think we both agree that its a bit above your IQ level but hey I wouldn’t give up just because of that if I were you, I’ve seen stranger things happen.

cardshark202

Wow

Hitman Actual

lol. Aren't you doing a masters at the moment, bops? How are you finding it with your 30 IQ?

We need to get this grudge match idea off the ground. And remember, it was my idea.

ianmc38

bops wrote:

Yup - obvious, but where would the fun be in that?

BOPS as amusing as I find some of your posts, alot of your play is really really bad.

Is your main aim in poker to make money or to have fun?

If it's to win money then calling raises oop with garbage like 95s is not the way to do it.

You don't need to wait for 99+/AJ+ to be a winning player, but you need to play well preflop and postflop and from the posts I've read of yours and the hands I've played with you online, it seems you play both horrifically (this is meant as constructive critcism btw).

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

it seems you play both horrifically (this is meant as constructive critcism btw).

playing horrifically works for him so you shut it .

bops

lenny_leonard wrote:

lol. Aren't you doing a masters at the moment, bops? How are you finding it with your 30 IQ?

We need to get this grudge match idea off the ground. And remember, it was my idea.

My fellow peers believed that it was a remarkable feat considering my IQ was that of a turnip - maybe i just cheated

i turned up for the last grudge match on Dec 9th in the SE - but none of the sissys showed...

ianmc38

Any idiot can do a Masters. Hell, I even managed one. I don't think it's any reflection on a persons intelligence. I had 2 or 3 turnips in my MSc class.