Apology over 1920 on the way?

ANXIOUS

It is understood that the British government is considering issuing an apology for the Bloody Sunday massacre in Croke Park in 1920.

Tipperary player Michael Hogan and 13 other people were killed at the Tipperary versus Dublin match at the GAA’s headquarters by Crown forces.

The plan would be to lay a wreath at Croke Park by a British Minister on the day of the rugby match between Ireland and England in a fortnight.

Just wondering what people opipions on this are?

mike65

Another stupid 'appeasement' in the world of Politically Correct fascism. If it happens.

Mike.

Delboy05

did anyone see Craig Doyles piece on the BBC telling the history of Croke Park before the game yesterday?
Can someone clarify if he said that on the morning of bloody sunday that 12 british intelligence officers were "murdered by Michael Collins' death squads" and that later in the day in retaliation "14 people were shot dead in Croke Park"?
I'm near certain thats how he put it all.....but maybe someone has this recorded and can set the record straight.
If it's true, it just goes to show how the official line in the UK still goes....Michael Coolins and his 'death squads' 'murdered', while people in Croke Park were 'shot' and no mention that it was the army who did it...

Judt

Find me a person who was there that the minister can personally apologize to, otherwise we're just demanding that the Brits bend over backwards for the sake of making us feel better. We've been free to live our lives in the South for nearly a century now, and the troubles have ended in the North (which the Brits apologized for, btw). At what point do we stop asking them to apologize?

Every time this sort of thing comes up nowadays, I'm reminded of the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch.

Zombrex

Delboy05 wrote:

I'm near certain thats how he put it all.....but maybe someone has this recorded and can set the record straight.
If it's true, it just goes to show how the official line in the UK still goes....Michael Coolins and his 'death squads' 'murdered', while people in Croke Park were 'shot' and no mention that it was the army who did it...

I'm not seeing the difference? Is it worse to get "murdered" than to get "shot dead"?

Sponge Bob

if the final score in the rugby match next week is Ireland 19 England 16 I will consider justice done and no need to go on about it any more.

Now if they would only apologise for that genocidal bastard Cromwell

.

InFront

Is there a link to this story?

As Judt says, let the Government apologize to those who were directly effected. I can only imagine it is an absolutely tiny amount of people. There is nobody alive today who can remember the atrocity, but there might be a few left who lost a parent or something.

It has nothing to do with the rest of the population, lets not accept apologies when we have no need for one.

Fratton Fred

Delboy05 wrote:

did anyone see Craig Doyles piece on the BBC telling the history of Croke Park before the game yesterday?
Can someone clarify if he said that on the morning of bloody sunday that 12 british intelligence officers were "murdered by Michael Collins' death squads" and that later in the day in retaliation "14 people were shot dead in Croke Park"?
I'm near certain thats how he put it all.....but maybe someone has this recorded and can set the record straight.
If it's true, it just goes to show how the official line in the UK still goes....Michael Coolins and his 'death squads' 'murdered', while people in Croke Park were 'shot' and no mention that it was the army who did it...

I think you may be looking for something that is not there.

Zambia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281920%29

If anyone wants the gory details. As guerilla warfare goes it was a fortunate subsequence, the shooting of innocent civilians in croke park would have just lead more people into Collins forces. If the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being.

I think its about time to stop demanding apologies.

ANXIOUS

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/north...010645,00.html
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=72669

ANXIOUS

Zambia232 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281920%29

If anyone wants the gory details. As guerilla warfare goes it was a fortunate subsequence, the shooting of innocent civilians in croke park would have just lead more people into Collins forces. If the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being.

I think its about time to stop demanding apologies.

So let me get this straight you are condoning murdering innocent civillians

Fratton Fred

here we go again

Ice_Box

"When you kill one enemy, you then must plan for the one hundred enemies you have now created. No enemy ever stands alone. He comes with a mother and father, brothers and sisters. He has a wife and children, friends and neighbors. When you kill this enemy, you must be ready to face the angry revenge that comes from the grief of this loss for all the people who knew and loved this man. The only way to stop this endless chain of enemy killing enemy is to forgive it. And in doing so, teach each one that life is the most important, precious and valuable thing."

Anwarshah Anwary

oscarBravo

ANXIOUS wrote:

So let me get this straight you are condoning murdering innocent civillians

Blatant troll. Don't do it again.

stovelid

Like the inquiry/truth/apology cottage industry in the north, ts fairly unobjectionable in theory (who could oppose it on grounds of decency?) but I personally don't feel that the Britain 2007 should have to apologize endlessly for atrocities committed by another administration and the Ireland of 2007 should not require those apologies. We don't have a patent on oppressive colonial history.

An apology as an optional mark of respect is fine but it's about time we stopped emoting our history with England as a means to amplifying our Irishness.

Unpossible

ANXIOUS wrote:

So let me get this straight you are condoning murdering innocent civillians

I think what he meant was that it had a positive side effect for "the cause", just like the execution of the 1916 leaders caused public opinion to sway in favour of the rising. How many young men joined Collins as a result of bloody sunday?

Obviously it was not a positive thing in Irish history.


edit; oops, oscarBravo had not replied when I started to write this post

sceptre

ANXIOUS wrote:

So let me get this straight you are condoning murdering innocent civillians

I can't read that any other way than "I read your post, inserted something that wasn't said and answered the post I wanted to answer without any reference to what I was replying to". Odd that.

Here's my opinion, given that you asked people for theirs before quite rudely going back the throat of someone who offered one: it won't change anything. If they want to, that's fine. I don't see the point in expecting it but if it's offered we could let them make it. It won't satisfy the idiots who want to know what people's parents were doing during the civil war and it won't satisfy the idiots who'll be protesting outside the door during the match (while most other people will be enjoying the match either in person or on a screen somewhere). The fact of the matter is that the killings in Croke Park, amongst others, fortuitously but inadvertently hastened the advent of Irish independence by creating a PR nightmare that the British government strongly desired to see over.

Now, next time you call for opinions, don't whine just because someone gives you one.

redspider

ANXIOUS wrote:

It is understood that the British government is considering issuing an apology for the Bloody Sunday massacre in Croke Park in 1920.

Tipperary player Michael Hogan and 13 other people were killed at the Tipperary versus Dublin match at the GAA’s headquarters by Crown forces.

The plan would be to lay a wreath at Croke Park by a British Minister on the day of the rugby match between Ireland and England in a fortnight.

Just wondering what people opipions on this are?

I haven't heard about this from any offiicial sources.

It was a bad move by the British authorities/army at the time, and in my opinion deserves an apology given the location of the Rugby match, etc. If it is something that is forthcoming, then they may as well give it, symbolic as it is if nothing else. Aplogies can never make up for killings and injuries.

To those that think its water well under the bridge, many of our grandparents were alive during this time and remember it well. Whilst the players on the pitch that day may not be around anymore, that does not mean that it should invalidate an apology if given, late as it is.

It has to be recognised that the GAA have made a remarkable step in inviting other sporting bodies to play in their grounds, in their time of need. Indeed, if Landsdowne Rd was not being refurbished, these games wouldnt be taking place.

The British have a lot to aplogise for, not only here, but throughout many countries across the world. Another apology can only be helpful, even if having no practical value.

Redspider

Zombrex

stovelid wrote:

Like the inquiry/truth/apology cottage industry in the north, ts fairly unobjectionable in theory (who could oppose it on grounds of decency?) but I personally don't feel that the Britain 2007 should have to apologize endlessly for atrocities committed by another administration and the Ireland of 2007 should not require those apologies.

I agree, I've no objections but neither do I feel particularly strongly that it is needed.

Its not even like this was something the British establishment were proud of at the time. As far as I can remember from leaving cert history those that fired into the crowd were acting largely on their own, and the actions surprised and horrified even those at Dublin Castle, who tried to cover it up.

I don't know, some people, such as the descendents, might feel the need for this apology, but for the rest of us I don't have any strong need for it

r3nu4l

Delboy05 wrote:

no mention that it was the army who did it...

Didn't see the program you are talking about but. I think it was last Thursday that DJ Carey was interviewed on BBC radio 4.

He was asked his opinion on the opening of Croke Park. The introduction to the article stated that in 1920 members of the British Army killed 14 unarmed civilians in Croke Park. The intro then moved on to talk about how Croke Park was a symbol of Irish nationalism and identity and the home of Gaelic sports.

It was very unambiguous and I was happy to hear it, there was no mention of anything else, no suggestion that it was a retaliation for anything or the like.

I've already said on another thread that I think it would be a good idea. I do think that laying a wreath will serve to educate the English public as a whole and maybe help them to understand Irish people and our attitudes a bit better.

We are still a country trying to cope with our past, some want to cope by sweeping it all under the carpet and forgetting about it, others want to highlight every tiny grievance. Neither is right, we should certainly remember what happened and honour the birth of our country and what happended in the past but not use it as a stick to beat our neighbours with.

Judt

Question: Why do we really want this apology?

My proposed answer... Because we like to beat the English with a stick at every oppertunity. That's no good reason to ask for an apology, especially considering that England and the UK as a whole tends to bend over backwards for the Republic of Ireland these days. That same British military that did in 14 people 80 years ago will today happily defend the island of Ireland. You don't think we owned those aircraft patrolling our skies on September 12th 2001?

We're economically dependent on the UK, and they on us. There's more Irish living, working, marrying and raising families in the UK than anywhere else in the world. And meanwhile back in the motherland we can't seem to get over every chance to work ourselves up into a fuming fury.

I'll keep saying it: What have the Romans ever done for us?

r3nu4l

My point is that some people really want it, some don't, others don't care.

What really matters is that the British people understand that these things happened and went on. It helps them to become sensitive to the Irish psyche.

Example: I used to use the word 'retard' a lot. Quite happily say to people 'Oh, don't be such a retard' etc. Then I worked with a guy and noticed that anytime I used the word 'retard' he would leave the lab for a while. Eventually he told me that his brother was retarded and in a hospital and that he visited his brother every week etc and that basically it upset him to hear the word 'retard' used so blatantly. Once I realised this I copped on a bit and it helped me to understand this friend/colleague a bit better.

The point is that the vast majority of British people do not see that they did anything wrong in Ireland, they know about slavery and accept how terrible it was but do see the Irish as being strange and 'tetchy'. Tehy know nothing of the cultural and linguistic genocide, the murder, taking of land etc.

IT shouldn't be a stick to beat the English with but it should help them to understand that they did do great wrongs in Ireland and that the ramifications are still present as an underlying current in Irish culture and society. It should be a symbolic educational tool that helps to bring us closer together.

ANXIOUS

sceptre wrote:

Now, next time you call for opinions, don't whine just because someone gives you one.

How in anyway could you consider what i said to be a "whine" i asked him to clarify his opinion i dont see what is wrong with that. Do you?

ANXIOUS

Zambia232 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281920%29

If anyone wants the gory details. As guerilla warfare goes it was a fortunate subsequence, the shooting of innocent civilians in croke park would have just lead more people into Collins forces. If the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being.

I think its about time to stop demanding apologies.

How could my reply to this post be described as a troll, i clearly only asked him to clarify his point.


If the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being.

I think this line is clearly condoning murdering innocent people. If the poster is still reading this thread would he be as kind to confirm or deny my feelings of this line

sceptre

ANXIOUS wrote:

How in anyway could you consider what i said to be a "whine" i asked him to clarify his opinion i dont see what is wrong with that. Do you?

Yes I do. Re-read the opening line of my post, digest it, move on. You could also give the appearance that you've read the guidelines for posting by offering your own opinion as is required by the guidelines.

Zambia

ANXIOUS wrote:

So let me get this straight you are condoning murdering innocent civillians

Catch yourself on ...

Zambia

ANXIOUS wrote:

How could my reply to this post be described as a troll, i clearly only asked him to clarify his point.


If the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being.

I think this line is clearly condoning murdering innocent people. If the poster is still reading this thread would he be as kind to confirm or deny my feelings of this line

Ok piont taken , I cant see how you made this out but I will grant you may.

Once upon a time prior to 1916 a lot of Irish where happy within the UK. The execution of some of the rising volunteers sparked a wave of sympathy. A subsequent wave of sympathy was generated by the events in Croke Park on the day in question.

These facts are documented in most irish history books on the subject. The article I posted from wikipedia also states the wave of sympathy to collins cause after the events in croke park.

If the 1916 risers had never been executed or bloody sunday never happened history could have been a lot different.

Judt

IT shouldn't be a stick to beat the English with but it should help them to understand that they did do great wrongs in Ireland and that the ramifications are still present as an underlying current in Irish culture and society. It should be a symbolic educational tool that helps to bring us closer together.

Well, I think it is a big stick to beat them... by any other name. "To make them understand"... what, precisely? That they're a bunch of nobs, bow down to us and put this in your mouth?

It's not a symbolic tool to bring us together, it's the Irish getting up and haughty about "What they did to us." They being people long in their graves. If the English ever go and subjugate another country, then we wheel out the lessons. But last I looked England is quite a generous nation. Any time there's a famine, flood or flippen coup they pony up with their money and support. Then forcing them to come and pontificate at the alter of Irishness that is Croke Park (drunks pissing in the stands and all) in one of the richest nations on earth, a position thanks in no small part to the English... well, What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us? Come on, nobody has yet answered my question....

stakey

Despite being one of the richest countries in the world and certainly one of the most economically (well spotted zambia) successful country of the former colonies of Britain it appears as a 'nation' Ireland still holds this colonial mentality. With that colonial mentality comes the long term need and longing for our big bad neighbour to once again reaffirm that we were ill treated by them just so our future generations will hold this colonial mentality in place for another generation and so on and so on.

It truly is a pathetic sight that in 2007 we're once again expecting our big bad neighbour and those condescending subjects of the crown bend over backwards to appease our colonial mentality at a bloody game of rugby... come off of it...

Zambia

deconstruct wrote:

Despite being one of the richest countries in the world and certainly the most economically successful country of the former colonies of Britain

America may beg to differ. But your piont is valid.

ANXIOUS

oscarBravo wrote:

Blatant troll. Don't do it again.

I belive this post is in breach of the gudelines of this forum so have reported it.

Allegations of trollery will not be accepted in-thread - they will be viewed as simply another form of personal attack, and dealt with accordingly. If you believe someone is trolling, and object, then report them as per "Reporting & Moderating" above.

ANXIOUS

sceptre wrote:

Yes I do. Re-read the opening line of my post, digest it, move on. You could also give the appearance that you've read the guidelines for posting by offering your own opinion as is required by the guidelines.

I have read the guidelines in fact i know them off by heart do you? Where does it say im required to give my own opinion?

guidelines wrote:

Topics should not be verbatim quotes from some article sans comment. Add a comment before or after the post, offering your opinion on the subject, or at the very least, your reason for adding the topic.

Have you read my original post i clearly state why i have posted here.
An apology for accusing/implying i didnt read the guidelines would be welcome, Thanks have a nice day

Zebra3

Judt wrote:

and the troubles have ended in the North (which the Brits apologized for, btw)

When did that happen?

Britain should not just be apologising for the murder of Irish civilians that day, but for all her immoral actions in Ireland and abroad carried out by the current state.

The British whine about Japan refusing to face up to her history of occupation and cruelty in WWII, while they gladly ignore their own and instead continue to put out propaganda like the outrageous claim that they were fighting for freedom in WWI and WWII while occupying and re-occupying a whole host of countries.

It is this sort of revionist hostory which continues to cause huge problems in Britain today as their young poeple are thought that their raping of the world was a good thing. This all leads to a continued master-race mentality which is jumped up on by the likes of the BNP and gives clowns like Blair a chance to act like in a way of the empire's self-righteous past by invading Iraq again.

In 1998 Germany apologised for her part in the horrific bombings of civilans in Guernica in the Spanish Civil War which was an important effort to reach out to the youth of Germany and say 'what we done was wrong and we admit it'. Spain and Italy still refuse to even acknowledge that this event took place.

With some posters hearing not wanting the past dragged up, I assume they are against the hunting down of Nazi war criminals then....

Zambia

Zebra3 wrote:

With some posters hearing not wanting the past dragged up, I assume they are against the hunting down of Nazi war criminals then....

The youngest would be 80 years old so at this piont yes..

LordSutch

I am not condoning what some stupid & murderous British Officer did in Croak Park circa 1920 ~ but ...............

As far as I can make out, "12 British (Irish) not English intelligence officers (Police men) were "murdered by Michael Collins' & associates" Dunno if this is true? but it would set the stage as to why some demented & crazed British Army personel went ballistic & burst into the where all the Republicans were gathered? on that sad & 'Bloody week'.

Please note the question marks before you attack me

stakey

I wouldn't argue that Britain (or for that matter any other imperialistic ambitious country) haven't done any wrong. But expecting an apology because a bunch of English players are going to be playing at Croke Park really is the crux of the stupidity that is nationalism. On a diplomatic level, yes there will always be a place to learn, apologise and foster better relations but to expect an apology for a rugby game is ludicrous at best. These men had/have nothing to do with the troubles in Ireland much like Irish men and women had nothing to do with the bombing of innocents in the cities of England. Should Ireland in years to come apologise for bombings in the docklands of London before a sporting even in London between the two teams?

Zambia

ArthurF wrote:

I am not condoning what some stupid & murderous British Officer did in Croak Park circa 1920 ~ but ...............

As far as I can make out, "12 British (Irish) not English intelligence officers (Police men) were "murdered by Michael Collins' & associates" Dunno if this is true? but it would set the stage as to why some demented & crazed British Army personel went ballistic & burst into the where all the Republicans were gathered? on that sad & 'Bloody week'.

Please note the question marks before you attack me

Hmm there is a lot of inconsistancys in this have a look at the wikipedia link I posted.

ANXIOUS

No, matter how long its been since an event has happened if someone is in the wrong they should be mature enough to hold there hands up and say sorry. Why would the irish goverment say sorry for the london bombings? Do you not know that the ira carried this out on behalf of themselves. There was no colusion with the irish goverment, (unlike the udf/britsh goverment :rolleyes: ). However the black and tans we're working under the direct command of the british goverment. That is why the british goverment should say sorry.

I would have had no problem if the britsh army had found he people who we're responsible for killing the 13soldiers and excuted them. However i have a problem with them randomly killing innocent people. That is what my problem is the fact that these we're innocent people, not soliders.

ANXIOUS

deconstruct wrote:

It truly is a pathetic sight that in 2007 we're once again expecting our big bad neighbour and those condescending subjects of the crown bend over backwards to appease our colonial mentality at a bloody game of rugby... come off of it...

just in response to thi, their is no evidence to suggest that the irish goverment asked for this, it seems britian has accepted what it did was wrong.

gandalf

ANXIOUS wrote:

I belive this post is in breach of the gudelines of this forum so have reported it.

Allegations of trollery will not be accepted in-thread - they will be viewed as simply another form of personal attack, and dealt with accordingly. If you believe someone is trolling, and object, then report them as per "Reporting & Moderating" above.

This stands for users of the forum.

A forum moderator can warn via pm or via the thread in question. In this case oscar choose to do it in the thread.

I really do not see what your problem is with this other than being a smart arse.

ANXIOUS

gandalf wrote:

This stands for users of the forum.

A forum moderator can warn via pm or via the thread in question. In this case oscar choose to do it in the thread.

I really do not see what your problem is with this other than being a smart arse.

Sorry didnt realize the moderator's didn't have to follow the guidelines. Won't happen again.

Zambia

ANXIOUS wrote:

No, matter how long its been since an event has happened if someone is in the wrong they should be mature enough to hold there hands up and say sorry.

I await my apology for you implying I avocated the murder of innocent civilians. But we have moved on from that have we.

There is a thread below discussing collusion with the British/UVF think its a little of topic here.

stakey

If Britain wants to this, that's fair enough as a sovereign state Britain can say whatever the hell she likes.

What I have an issue with us the colonial mentality shown on these pages, that Britain _owes_ us an apology for every action taken by there forces in Ireland nearly 100 years ago.

Most (sane) people acknowledges this stuff happened, i have no problem acknowledging that wrongs were done to people. But in 2007 one would hope that a game of Rugby wouldn't have to be made party to politics and politics and politics as fracked up as Irish/English politics.

In the end, it's only a game in a stadium for the entertainment of fans and glory for the teams. It has nothing to do with politics, NOTHING! Nor should it have anything to do with politics.

Unfortunately again, our colonial mentality means the armchair republicans in this country have found a reason to start demanding more apologies for 'their' painful pasts...

ANXIOUS

Zambia232 wrote:

I await my apology for you implying I avocated the murder of innocent civilians. But we have moved on from that have we.

There is a thread below discussing collusion with the British/UVF think its a little of topic here.

I would like to apoliogize too you for my mis-interpation of your statement on

f the british had acted like complete angels through the whole war. Ireland may never have come into being

.

Im happy to clear this up. Yes, i realize that. So thats why i wrapped it in brackets.

Fratton Fred

ANXIOUS wrote:

No, matter how long its been since an event has happened if someone is in the wrong they should be mature enough to hold there hands up and say sorry. Why would the irish goverment say sorry for the london bombings? Do you not know that the ira carried this out on behalf of themselves. There was no colusion with the irish goverment, (unlike the udf/britsh goverment :rolleyes: ). However the black and tans we're working under the direct command of the british goverment. That is why the british goverment should say sorry.

so we can expect the apology if Sinn Fein ever get in then:rolleyes:

ANXIOUS

deconstruct wrote:

Unfortunately again, our colonial mentality means the armchair republicans in this country have found a reason to start demanding more apologies for 'their' painful pasts...

Again we havent demanded anything it was offered

gandalf

ANXIOUS wrote:

Sorry didnt realize the moderator's didn't have to follow the guidelines. Won't happen again.

No it has happened again.

Let me make this clear for you. A Moderator of this forum can call you to account via PM or directly on the thread in question.

Oscar choose this route to ensure others saw that we do not tolerate comments like the one you posted.

If this causes you a problem then I suggest you stop posting in this forum.

ANXIOUS

gandalf wrote:

No it has happened again.

Let me make this clear for you. A Moderator of this forum can call you to account via PM or directly on the thread in question.

Oscar choose this route to ensure others saw that we do not tolerate comments like the one you posted.

If this causes you a problem then I suggest you stop posting in this forum.

No problem at all now, that i fully understand the rules.

philologos

I think its noble, yes an innocent player died due to British brutality. However I doubt the Irish government would apologise for the murders carried out by Michael Collins and co on British people in Ireland. Part of me thinks it would be correct to, but part of me doesn't think it would be correct to as the families of British soldiers also suffered. (I'm not a unionist or anything I just hold a neutral stance in relation to it all)

ANXIOUS

Fratton Fred wrote:

so we can expect the apology if Sinn Fein ever get in then:rolleyes:

Not wanting to go off topic, however i dont know if its ever been proved that Sein Feim approved the spate of bombings in england. I like to deal with fact and its fact that the black and tans we're sent to ireland on the order of the british goverment

ANXIOUS

Jakkass wrote:

I think its noble, yes an innocent player died due to British brutality. However I doubt the Irish government would apologise for the murders carried out by Michael Collins and co on British people in Ireland. Part of me thinks it would be correct to, but part of me doesn't think it would be correct to as the families of British soldiers also suffered. (I'm not a unionist or anything I just hold a neutral stance in relation to it all)

No of course no why would the irish goverment say sorry for a soldier killing a solider. As ive previously stated the only thing that bothers me is that the people killed we're civilians