Need for wars by Israel

imeddyhobbs

In a previous thread i started i pointed out that i bycott Israeli goods.I belive Israel is a terrorist state(in my opinion).They can do what they want in the region and claim that they do it for the security of Isreal.
At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon to clear lands that have landmines and (some of its own) un-exploded bombs,whats the reason for this?why do they think that they have the right to go into another country and do this type of work?call me naieve if you like but i call that provocation!!even more to the point of why i am posting again about this issue is because now Israel feels the need to start pissing off the islam world by interfering with one of islams holyiest sites,the al aqsa mosque in Jerusalem,a city Israel illegaly occupies.
Israel has no rights to be in Jerusalem and it certainly has no legitimate right to be interfering with such sites,the last time Israel did "work" on the mosque they caused structural damage to it when part of a wall collapsed.Just a few years back Israel sent former warlord and prime minister Ariel Sharon to visit the site just to piss off the muslim world.
I would imagine in my naievity that if muslims feel safe to go into this building and that they dont WANT it to be changed then Israel should keep its bloodstained hands away from it and stop putting its citizens in danger by provoking radical muslims into doing disgusting things.Today at the mosque Israeli soldiers started firing rubber bullets at protesters that dont want any "work" done to this shrine,Israel feels the need so bad to "work" on this site that it fires rubber bullets at protesters!?imagine if the army or the garda here in Ireland started shooting at protesters of contraversial sites you know it would not happen!:mad:
The business of war must be bad in Israel at the moment,thats the only reason i can see why it would be provoking its enemys.

PS: Before anyone starts pointing out any side issues like if Israel is a terrorist state or if it illegally occupies Jarusalem or part of Jarusalem lets discuss if Israel is provoking its enemy and islam as a whole and putting its citizens in further danger

purple'n'gold

Israel is a bully, pure and simple. Israel is looked after by the USA who will allow it to do any thing it wants. Murder, torture, and invade other countries. You name it. Like all bullies who are looked after by a big friend, they will do as they please when they please. If the USA tired of them (it won’t happen) then you would see a different Israel.

Zambia

There you go in case anyone wants the story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346093.stm

HelterSkelter

imeddyhobbs wrote:

At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon

Do you have a link for this story?

Edit: This is the closest I could find. There seems to be a disagreement over whether the Israeli army crossed the border or not...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FF9AF073-9272-4F6E-AAE7-EFE04B360164.htm

cold_filter

Israel is in a tough position, and they dont always do the correct thing, but if police fired rubber bullets at those muppets in carrickmines/rossport maybe we could actually build something in this country. The mosque is on israeli land therefore it belongs to israel "occupying force or not" if the mosque collapsed and killed 500 muslims, there would be yet another jihad for israel letting the mosque get into such a state

imeddyhobbs

HelterSkelter wrote:

Do you have a link for this story?

Edit: This is the closest I could find. There seems to be a disagreement over whether the Israeli army crossed the border or not...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FF9AF073-9272-4F6E-AAE7-EFE04B360164.htm

Al jazeera is actually where i got it from,it was on their news on tuesday.

InFront

The mosque is on israeli land therefore it belongs to israel

That depends on whether you believe there is such a thing as Israel. Anyway, it comes under 'disputed territory'.

The Islamic Foundation of Ireland and the Clonskeagh Mosque, these are on Irish land. Do they belong to Ireland to block access in or out, or do with them as they wish? No, and Israel is supposed to be a 'liberal democracy', remember. Apart from their more obvious acts of terror, the government have been causing structural damage to the mosque for years as a deliberate taunt to the Palestinians.

oscarBravo

imeddyhobbs wrote:

Before anyone starts pointing out any side issues like if Israel is a terrorist state or if it illegally occupies Jarusalem or part of Jarusalem lets discuss if Israel is provoking its enemy and islam as a whole and putting its citizens in further danger

Starting a thread here doesn't give you the right to dictate the parameters of the discussion. Sure, it would be nice from a partisan perspective to baldly state a controversial opinion as fact and prevent others from discussing it, but if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

Sand

The Israeli archaelogical dig is occuring more than 50 meters away from the mosque and is a preliminary step to repairing/replacing a walkway that was apparently damaged in 2004. The outrage/hysteria generated in response is the stock response whipped up by various extremist groups - both jihadist and anti-israeli secularists. The Israelis have gone so far as to place cameras overlooking the work site which can be accessed via the internet 24 days in a touchingly naive attempt to reassure the concerned that theyre not knocking the mosque down.

Its naive because it assumes itll make any difference to the "IDF demolish Islamic holy site for laughs!!!!one111" propaganda. The mosque is built on the site of a biblical jewish temple - and there are hardline jewish elements which want to knock down the mosque and restore the original temple. The IDF/Israeli government prevents them so only a divine omnipotent being could figure out why theyd suddenly decide to damage the mosque for comedy value. Oh wait, I forgot - its because theyre just so damn evil. Yes, that explains it.

At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon to clear lands that have landmines and (some of its own) un-exploded bombs,whats the reason for this?why do they think that they have the right to go into another country and do this type of work?call me naieve if you like but i call that provocation!!

I cant actually, its probably against the charter. I can say your post is naive though. Id point out that reports dispute if the bulldozer [A bulldozer, not a full scale invasion tbh] was 2 meters on the Lebanese side or 2 meters on the Israeli side. The IDF says they stayed on their side of the line, that they radioed the Lebanese to ask them to stop shooting at the bulldozer and then returned fire. The Lebanse army says the bulldozer invaded their country and they shot at it.

Sounds like a hissy fit over nothing to be honest, and luckily no one died in the fighting because it would be a crappy thing to die over. It does remind me of that story from a few years back where the UN identified a mined area on the border and asked Hizbullah to clear it, Hizbullah told them it was on the Israeli side and to call the IDF. The UN asked the IDF to clear it, so the IDF sent out a bulldozer. Hizbullah shot the bulldozer with an RPG. The mines stayed in place. Everyone was a winner.

If the bulldozer was clearing mines - which apparently is the case - then shooting it up because it strays a few meters inside a line on the map is a bit of an over-reaction [not proportional even?]. Especially considering Lebanese complaints about the number of mines in the south. Surely clearing them, even by accident, is a GOOD thing?

Im aware though that none of the above will have the slightest impact on your views.

if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

Theres the whole cost/benefit ratio to be considered though. imeddyhobbs may feel that it is illegally occupied or that it isnt. It doesnt change the reality that it is held by Israel.

I have noticed though [I feel this is on topic as imeddyhobbs portrays the situation in Israel as that of unending one sided warmongering, and the reality seems a little more.....complex] that the Lebanese army siezed a truck carrying arms and ammunition intended for Hizbullah along the Israeli border. Hizbullah have demanded that the arms be returned to them.

Two points come from this imo - one, that there are threats [Hizbullah] along Israels border that Israel will be acting against and reacting to. Its not one sided aggression. Two, that the Lebanese government is acting to prevent arms reaching Hizbullah - this is a good thing, but its hard to say if its down to conflict between Hizbullah and the Lebanese government or if its more the Lebanese government determined to prevent Hizbullah from inciting another conflict with Israel.

Boston

Ive been meaning to say this for some time. Sands, you're one of the most level headed and rational posters on this forum. I'm actually serious. I find myself on threads like this scrolling down to find your posts to actual get a balanced and non emotive view point.

Padraig Mor

cold_filter wrote:

. The mosque is on israeli land [Jerusalem]

Not according to the UN and the official positions of every other country in the world - including the US.

imeddyhobbs

oscarBravo wrote:

Starting a thread here doesn't give you the right to dictate the parameters of the discussion. Sure, it would be nice from a partisan perspective to baldly state a controversial opinion as fact and prevent others from discussing it, but if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

I asked politely if people would consider the main points of my thread,i did not restrict any potential
posters to talk about any points in the thread.You my friend are the dictator for telling me that i have no right to ask for preference

Victor

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

SeanW

Ok, why is everyone beating up on Israel, sure they aren't perfect, and I for one don't support them, but people who think the other middle Eastern governments are all nice, virtuous, peace loving people need to think again.

Required viewing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4561090291581225744 this piece from an American commentator Glenn Beck, who details the large volumes of anti-Jewish and anti-Western propoganda that Middle Eastern governments and government employees put out among their people.

If you wonder why there's so much threat of terrorism these days, a lot of it has to do with this.

It wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing about the repairs was all blown out of proportion by evil Islamist propogandists.

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?

oscarBravo

imeddyhobbs wrote:

I asked politely if people would consider the main points of my thread,i did not restrict any potential
posters to talk about any points in the thread.

You raised the points, then asked people not to discuss them until they'd first discussed the points you wanted them to discuss; in other words you attempted to shape the course of the discussion from the start.

imeddyhobbs wrote:

You my friend are the dictator for telling me that i have no right to ask for preference

Two things: first, you have the right to ask people not to discuss controversial points you initially raised, but - as I pointed out - they have every right to ignore that request and discuss them anyway. Second, calling anyone a dictator on this forum is against the charter, as is discussing the moderation of a thread in that thread. Smileys don't change that.

Back on topic.

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

I'm curious about this also.

wes

SeanW wrote:

Ok, why is everyone beating up on Israel, sure they aren't perfect, and I for one don't support them, but people who think the other middle Eastern governments are all nice, virtuous, peace loving people need to think again.

Required viewing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4561090291581225744 this piece from an American commentator Glenn Beck, who details the large volumes of anti-Jewish and anti-Western propoganda that Middle Eastern governments and government employees put out among their people.

If you wonder why there's so much threat of terrorism these days, a lot of it has to do with this.

It wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing about the repairs was all blown out of proportion by evil Islamist propogandists.

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?

Glenn Beck..... The guy is a bit of a joke imho. I wouldn't consider anything he is involved in, "required viewing". He is one of those commentators who has a simple agenda and justs recycles what other right wing commentators have said.

I think the following Dispatches documentary is far superior to anything by Beck. It actually does some investigative journalism in the Middle East. Here is a URL for more info:

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=483

It give a good insight into the propaganda in the Middle East against the US and Israel.

As for the Israel/Palestine mess its very complicated and quite frankly there is a lot of blame to go around.

Judt

InFront wrote:

That depends on whether you believe there is such a thing as Israel. Anyway, it comes under 'disputed territory'.

The Israeli Defence Forces have been asked by their neighboring colleagues on several occasions whether or not Israel is a real state. The Israeli Defence Forces gave them a resounding yes. Israel has guns, therefore Israel is.

The whole situation out there is a mess, but nobody is a good guy - the Israeli's have as much right to live in Israel as a Catholic has to live in Northern Ireland, and vice versa for the Palestinians. Figuring out a way for them all to live there without killing one another is the trick, but somebody born and bred in Israel has every right to live there.

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder. Surely you're not saying that you're so eager to see Israel besmirched that you'd wish that that did happen?

As for entering the grounds of the Mosque, the Israeli police have, as I recall, stepped in there only when really, really required, like when one of Israel's citizens went a bit postal and tried to blow the place up. As much as Israel might leave the Palestinians to themselves up there, when there's a life threatening riot...

As for the digging they're doing, Jerusalem is an ancient city, and a lot of stuff is built right on top of a lot of other stuff, so get over it.

imeddyhobbs

Judt wrote:

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder. Surely you're not saying that you're so eager to see Israel besmirched that you'd wish that that did happen?

You know i was going to put that point in about Israel clearing these lands of unexploded ordnance to protect kids but i did not want to bring any crude humor into the topic.Israel sends in gun ships to destroy a target in residential areas at will knowing that their are innocent people in that same building(including children)but they dont care about innocent people because no one is innocent in the eyes of the perpretator.So common is this abuse of human rights that they have a polite therm for it..collateral damage.
I cant belive that you belive that a group of people in Israel got together and decided that they have to clean up part of another country,a country that just beat them in a war!So now they want to go into this country again just in case some kids get hurt?
How many kids did they kill they the last time they went in?

imeddyhobbs

oscarBravo wrote:

Back on topic.

back on topic,just as i requested:)

imeddyhobbs

Victor wrote:

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

so i made one mistake,i hope you dont get stuck on it and have the ability to see past it

Judt

imeddyhobbs wrote:

You know i was going to put that point in about Israel clearing these lands of unexploded ordnance to protect kids but i did not want to bring any crude humor into the topic.Israel sends in gun ships to destroy a target in residential areas at will knowing that their are innocent people in that same building(including children)but they dont care about innocent people because no one is innocent in the eyes of the perpretator.So common is this abuse of human rights that they have a polite therm for it..collateral damage.
I cant belive that you belive that a group of people in Israel got together and decided that they have to clean up part of another country,a country that just beat them in a war!So now they want to go into this country again just in case some kids get hurt?
How many kids did they kill they the last time they went in?

Great, dodge my point - So Israel went into S. Lebanon to clear bombs, let's leave it at that for that point. As for the conflict itself, I seem to recall that one started with provocation from the other side of the border.

You're anti-Israel no matter what the circumstances, but as I've said before - it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, or who did what in the Middle East. What matters is trying to find a solution which will ensure no more kids have to die out there, let alone anyone else. Demanding that Israel hold up its hands and personally say sorry to everyone on the face of the earth beforehand is no way to conduct business. They aren't in an enviable position themselves.

InFront

Judt wrote:

The Israeli Defence Forces have been asked by their neighboring colleagues on several occasions whether or not Israel is a real state. The Israeli Defence Forces gave them a resounding yes. Israel has guns, therefore Israel is.

We all already know how Israel feels about its neighbours. If I didn't like my neighbours, I probably wouldn't go buy a house next door to them, but there you go, that's Zionism.

the Israeli's have as much right to live in Israel as a Catholic has to live in Northern Ireland, and vice versa for the Palestinians.

Yes well that's not what they say about Palestinians.

What is your opinion on their "nationality law", which enforces many Palestinian couples, married and living in east Jerusalem, to live either apart or else illegally together?
What about the identity card system, is that not obvious discrimination, would Catholic ID Cards have been tolerated in Northern Ireland in the 1980s?
What do you think about their laws regarding the movement of the Palestinians?
What about the refusal for many Palestinians to build houses in their districts?
And the fact that those who leave Jerusalem to study or work abroad lose any automatic right to their Jerusalem identity cards?
What about the constroction of the seperation wall? What does such a wall, designed to hermetically seal the occupied Palestinian West Bank territory remind you of?

I think your idea of "equal rights" is completely lost on that Government

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder.

Ever since someone decided that there should be a state called Israel, it has had a history of provocation.
What better way to provoke an enemy than to cross your army into that another territory on the pretence of clearing mines of all things. What exactly is their sudden worry about mines? It wasn't so long ago they were putting them there. As the op asked, when did Israel start to worry about children?

As for the digging they're doing, Jerusalem is an ancient city, and a lot of stuff is built right on top of a lot of other stuff, so get over it.

There is more to it than digging. There is another article on this here

Judt

We all already know how Israel feels about its neighbours. If I didn't like my neighbours, I probably wouldn't go buy a house next door to them, but there you go, that's Zionism.

Yes, and all us PaddyMac's should move to Boston. Really, once that new world was discovered for us to move to we deserved what we got in our "homeland." You oversimplify the issue - tell me, after a good portion of continental Europe saw its Jewry wiped out and driven from their homes, where exactly were the Israeli's going to set up their shop? And tell me, where other than Israel would one consider to be the "homeland" of the Jews? Should we have taken a good bit of Germany, expelled the locals and expected them to take up shop there, instead?

The Israeli's don't like the arabs and the arabs don't like the Israeli's. As I keep saying, everyone needs to get past this point and on to "How do we live together?" Israel is far from an innocent party in all of this, but the fact is that there are over 7 million people living in the state of Israel who have as much a right to a life as anyone else. Yes Israel tramples on the rights of other people in order to maintain itself, but the alternative offered to them by the arabs is to be driven into the Med. It's an "Us or Them" situation for both sides, and nothing can come from that.

Yes Israel keeps the Palestinian people downtrodden, but then the Palestinian people wouldn't mind it if the shoe were on the other foot. Again, "Us or Them", and this needs to change - for both sides.

Israel is building a wall, quite markedly to keep another people out of its country. Not even the Israeli's will dispute that. But at the same time, 99.99% of school buses that spontaneously combust in Israel do so for a reason... Real Politik plays an element here. If people were crossing from Northern Ireland into the South and blowing up the 39 every morning, mightn't we tighten the border controls?

I say that the Israel question is one which cannot be answered by violence, but that is the situation that exists in that both sides see it as being a case of "Either we go or they go", not "We can live together." Make no mistake, the Palestinians and most arab states don't want to see Israel exist - they don't just hate the Israeli state, they hate the Jews and would be happy to "finish the job." It's easy when you don't have your back to the sea living in the lions den not to think like they do.

Both sides need to stop thinking like that - the arabs have a longer way to go than the Israeli's, I think. I think that Israel would be happy to live in peace without the fear of suicide bombers and the odd mass invasion on religous holidays. Israel exacerbates the situation by its actions, but the arabs have to give up on the idea that Israel needs to be destroyed, not worked with. That's the only way conflicts like this come to an end - in Ireland the British only ended their bloody conflict when they decided that dealing with the Irish would be better than killing us all off.

Apart from this compromise, in which we acknowledge that pretty much everyone has blood on their hands but forever arguing about the wording of apologies isn't going to get anywhere, what would be your solution to the problem? The disbandment of Israel?

purple'n'gold

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?
__________________
Saudi Arabia and Iran have oil, lots of it. So, we don’t boycott countries who sell commodities that we need. Israel on the other hand sells nothing that we cannot buy someplace else.

wes

purplengold wrote:

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?
__________________
Saudi Arabia and Iran have oil, lots of it. So, we don’t boycott countries who sell commodities that we need. Israel on the other hand sells nothing that we cannot buy someplace else.

The world runs on oil. It would be impossible to boycott these countries. You wouldn't even know where the oil comes from. Also neither of these countries has invaded anyone recently and while Iran may very well fund terrorism against Israel, but then the US funds terrorists against them (there exiled in Iraq right now btw). Oh yeah and they killed there Democratically elected leader, that sounds like state sponsored terrorism to me. Then they put in place a dictator who murdered anyone who was a member of any democratic movements. Oh and when the revolution happened they protected that dictator instead of letting him pay for his crimes.

So why don't we boycott the US as well? They fund plenty of terrorism as well. How about the UK? They joined in on an illegal war with the US recently. Oh and how about Russia, Putin is up to all sorts of stuff.

I could go on and on and on here. If people are annoyed enough by what Israel did to the Palestinians they can boycott them all they want. If you want to boycott Iran and Saudi have fun with that. You won't be able to use anything that runs on oil and thats a hell of a lot more things than you think.

wes

Judt wrote:

You oversimplify the issue - tell me, after a good portion of continental Europe saw its Jewry wiped out and driven from their homes, where exactly were the Israeli's going to set up their shop? And tell me, where other than Israel would one consider to be the "homeland" of the Jews? Should we have taken a good bit of Germany, expelled the locals and expected them to take up shop there, instead?

Why did they set up shop in Palestine then? Why did they drive so many out? What about those who fled a war started by Israel? They aren't allowed to return are they. You seem to think its ok to punish the Palestinians for the crimes of Nazi Germany and thats exactly what happened.

So I ask you what right does anyone have to go into some else's country and take over? The answer is none. Plenty of Israeli's (the more hardcore Zionists to be fair) deny the existence of the Palestinian people, they even coined a incredibly racist phrase "A land without people, for a people without land". I have even heard such crap on American tv shows (an episode of Law and Order).

Now I am not saying the Israeli's should be driven into to the sea, but when the shoe was on the other foot they had no trouble carrying out overt terrorism and had no trouble driving people out of Palestine.

I don't envy there situation, there Grand Parents handed them a crappy situation.

Judt

wes wrote:

Why did they set up shop in Palestine then? Why did they drive so many out? What about those who fled a war started by Israel? They aren't allowed to return are they. You seem to think its ok to punish the Palestinians for the crimes of Nazi Germany and thats exactly what happened.

So I ask you what right does anyone have to go into some else's country and take over? The answer is none. Plenty of Israeli's (the more hardcore Zionists to be fair) deny the existence of the Palestinian people, they even coined a incredibly racist phrase "A land without people, for a people without land". I have even heard such crap on American tv shows (an episode of Law and Order).

Now I am not saying the Israeli's should be driven into to the sea, but when the shoe was on the other foot they had no trouble carrying out overt terrorism and had no trouble driving people out of Palestine.

I don't envy there situation, there Grand Parents handed them a crappy situation.

Hey, I never said the Zionists were right or wrong, I'm saying they were between a rock and a very hard place indeed and did what they did. Israel is a fact of life now, so you need to figure out a way to deal with the situation. A solution has not been forthcoming from the anti-Israel crowd.

wes

Judt wrote:

Hey, I never said the Zionists were right or wrong, I'm saying they were between a rock and a very hard place indeed and did what they did. Israel is a fact of life now, so you need to figure out a way to deal with the situation. A solution has not been forthcoming from the anti-Israel crowd.

To be fair a solution (a fair one) hasn't been presented by anyone. I agree there in a very bad situation, as are the Palestinians. I was just trying to point out there are elements in Israel that want to grab as much land as possible. Thankfully they seem to be out of power right now. Its a bad situation for all involved and a complicated one. Cooler heads need to prevail, but I really don't think any will.

Judt

wes wrote:

To be fair a solution (a fair one) hasn't been presented by anyone. I agree there in a very bad situation, as are the Palestinians. I was just trying to point out there are elements in Israel that want to grab as much land as possible. Thankfully they seem to be out of power right now. Its a bad situation for all involved and a complicated one. Cooler heads need to prevail, but I really don't think any will.

There are ultra-conservative elements in every country. Rolling around and saying "It'll never be..." is hardly the best way to deal with it. Indeed, if you consider it to be an unending situation then it might be best for you to simply ignore it, rather than have a go.

wes

Judt wrote:

There are ultra-conservative elements in every country. Rolling around and saying "It'll never be..." is hardly the best way to deal with it. Indeed, if you consider it to be an unending situation then it might be best for you to simply ignore it, rather than have a go.

I hardly consider it unending just incredibly difficult. Nothing is unending. Those elements have at times had quite a bit of sway, and they still do to a certain degree. Just look at some of the things the newest member of the ruling coalition, have said.

Frederico

The fanatical Israeli religious types..
The simplistic christian redneck types..
The nutjob angry muslim types..

They're all hungry for wars.

InFront

Edit: apology about length there were lots of points.

Judt wrote:

Yes, and all us PaddyMac's should move to Boston. Really, once that new world was discovered for us to move to we deserved what we got in our "homeland."

I'm not sure what you mean by homeland. Surely you mean "new land" as opposed to some God-given entitlement?
In that case, presuming that is what you mean, of course Jews should be treated with respect. There have always been a relatively small number of Jews there, the non-Zionists who officially opposed the creation of the state of Israel on the grounds that no such a place existed. Muslims have an obligation to respect Jews, I'm not sure to what extent that should extend to militant Zionism if at all.

It is the same with Irish migrants into the USA - yes of course you should enjoy all of what the country offers in line with its ethos, but you do not have the right to demand a change to your ethos by virtue of your presence, nor a displacement of those residents who are actually of the city.

We have the same debate with immigration here today. We talk of 'assimilation' into the society, not immigrants reforming your society to mirror the previous one.

You oversimplify the issue - tell me, after a good portion of continental Europe saw its Jewry wiped out and driven from their homes, where exactly were the Israeli's going to set up their shop?

What Israelis? Where was this state called Israel back then? I presume you mean Jews.
First of all, I think most people will accept that the state of Israel came about on the grounds of 'anti-Semitism' (yes very ironic). I am sympathetic to what happened those Jews in Europe, most of them now dead. But that is not a good reason to basically go and invade an Arab state and set up some artifical Jewish administration on the flimsy basis that their descendants came from there in ancient history.

Your opinion reminds me of what Winston Churchill said, "I do not admit that the dog in the manger [ Palestinian Arabs in Palestine] has the final right to the manger, even though he may have lain there for a very long time"

The point has been made, what if I do not admit that a wrong has been done to the Indians in America? Or the Catholic in Northern Ireland? Or the Aboriginals? This is the same thing, only more recent.

And tell me, where other than Israel would one consider to be the "homeland" of the Jews? Should we have taken a good bit of Germany, expelled the locals and expected them to take up shop there, instead?

But the whole thing is so illogical anyway, why not? Why did they even need a homeland? That's a result of a philosophy that says co-existence has failed. Co-existence didn't fail, Nazism had succeeded. You get rid of the Nazism, get rid of the anti-Jewish feeling that preceded it, and you have no need for any artifical country. You then have no need to grab land from people who had a valid right to it.
The creation of the state of Israel was literally a demand upon those Palestinians from the Arab state to pay for what had happened far away in Europe. Is that fair?

Yes Israel keeps the Palestinian people downtrodden, but then the Palestinian people wouldn't mind it if the shoe were on the other foot.

There is no use trying to spread the blame with hypothesis. Lets talk in terms of what is actually happening. Palestinians are not blameless, but the serious faults are those of Israel. They are the ones who are really perpetuating the conflict, they are the guys with the artifically enormous military, one of the biggest in the world. They are abusing their very disproportionate power.

Israel is building a wall, quite markedly to keep another people out of its country. Not even the Israeli's will dispute that. But at the same time, 99.99% of school buses that spontaneously combust in Israel do so for a reason.

I presume the reason you would give is different to the one I would give. You would probably say it's because a Palestinian just blows it up. I would probably say an angry Palestinian is retaliating for what Israel has done to him. It isn't black and white at all.

I say that the Israel question is one which cannot be answered by violence, but that is the situation that exists in that both sides see it as being a case of "Either we go or they go", not "We can live together." Make no mistake, the Palestinians and most arab states don't want to see Israel exist - they don't just hate the Israeli state, they hate the Jews and would be happy to "finish the job."

In fairness, it's one pretty big leap to go from hating Israel to hating Jews. I would like there to be no such thing as a state called Israel. If that administration could disappear and the lands returned, great.

So a lot of people hate Israel, but you actually carry this on and say it is the same thing to hate Jews, and that people who hate Israel want to "finish the job". That sounds like Zionist propaganda.
You're piling the whole thing in together, as if the Jews were divinely entitled to this place by your inability to seperate Judaism from Zionism.
People who hate Israel are anti-Zionists. If they hate Jews, that is a different issue for another day.

Realistically, it's too late to turn back the clock of course. We've known even before the creation of this 'country' that there had been a terrible mistake in the decision to send Jews there, and all that is left is one big mess. The question now is not how to get the Jews back out, but how do you get them to live peacefully there.

The steps the Israelis are taking are anti-peace.
They speak out and go to war against their neighbours with all the courage of a lapdog bbehind a Rottweiler. I say that a big part of securing peace in the middle east is kicking out the Rottweiler.

the arabs have a longer way to go than the Israeli's, I think. I think that Israel would be happy to live in peace without the fear of suicide bombers and the odd mass invasion on religous holidays.

Do you see an irony about complaining about a mass invasion on grounds of religion? Let the Israelis be happy there is only one Ramadan.

Stop pretending like Israel is some peace loving state who just wants to be good and fall in love with its neighbours. Is that what you were saying last July too? Show us on what grounds Arabs have 'further to go? Why 'further'?

what would be your solution to the problem? The disbandment of Israel?

Lets not talk in terms of wishful thinking. The solution to this isn't an easy one.

I think the Arab League's declaration is the best, and only way to secure peace in the area. Very important to that is the principle that Israelis withdraw completely from the occupied territories, accept a Palestinian state with east Jerusalem as its capital, and agree to a just settlement for Palestinian refugees, and treat Palestinians fairly. Palestinians need to accept the AL Declaration too.
It is wishful thinking for Hamas and Palestinians to pretend that there is any future to the idea of getting back their land in Israel. It looks as though they now get that. But it is equally over-wishful to expect that the views and interests of Hamas can be set aside. That's what Israel needs to 'get'.

Judt

InFront,

The point has been made, what if I do not admit that a wrong has been done to the Indians in America? Or the Catholic in Northern Ireland? Or the Aboriginals? This is the same thing, only more recent.

You make this point a couple of times, in a couple of ways, about apologies and Israel technically shouldn't exist. I don't dispute this one way or another. I'm saying that Israel does exist, it has existed for over 60 years and there are 7.1 million people living in Israel. Saying "So sorry, terrible mistake" or "You're right, we should go back" is neither feasible nor going to help the situation. Britain apologized for the treatment of Catholics in NI after the troubles were over, and really who cared about the apology so long as nobody was getting minced on the streets or arrested without cause? Solve the problem before you get to the apologies...

Let's come to an agreement then: Israel is a big bully. Israel pushes its neighbors around and steals their lunch money. But, like all bullies, Israel is also fundamentally insecure. Israel is a nation of people with aspirations and goals, just like you and me. It's also a nation of people on a particularly thin piece of land surrounded by hostile states and a big sea. That is the root of the Israeli mindset as I have observed it: Haughty on the outside, but ultimately insecure on the inside, because they feel - not without some justification - that all their hopes, dreams, families and homes could be driven into the sea in an instant. That focuses the mind in a deadly manner...

But the whole thing is so illogical anyway, why not? Why did they even need a homeland? That's a result of a philosophy that says co-existence has failed. Co-existence didn't fail, Nazism had succeeded. You get rid of the Nazism, get rid of the anti-Jewish feeling that preceded it, and you have no need for any artifical country. You then have no need to grab land from people who had a valid right to it.
The creation of the state of Israel was literally a demand upon those Palestinians from the Arab state to pay for what had happened far away in Europe. Is that fair?

Err, Europeans did hate the Jews. In the countries Nazi Germany overran the occupied citizens, who had no love of the Germans, were perfectly happy to do the business on the Jews all by themselves, from Poland to France. Sure not everybody hated the Jews, but I think historical fact shows that they were at the very least a mistrusted "outsider" group, at worst a hated group as, say, an African might be in Ireland today.

As for the Palestinians, again to your point of apologies - they come after the solution. I agree with you, the Palestinians have a really bad lot in life, but remember that it was Arafat who pulled back from the idea of signing, right there and right then in Camp David, the two-state accord which would see exactly what you suggest later on in your post - East Jerusalem and all. Israel does not bear all responsibility and bent over backwards. When the Palestinian government pulled back, the hard liners came to power in Israel and everyone had a real crap day. But never forget that Israel had a prime minister killed by one of his own ultra-conservative citizens because he was prepared to go so far for Palestine.

The Arab League solution has been tabled before. Arafat turned it down. Israel has the power to do more damage to Palestine, but it's the Palestinians who held - and maybe even hold - the power in their hands to do the deal.

Sponge Bob

Judt wrote:

The Arab League solution has been tabled before. Arafat turned it down. Israel has the power to do more damage to Palestine, but it's the Palestinians who held - and maybe even hold - the power in their hands to do the deal.

Just like the judenrat held all the power in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1942 I suppose.

Just because Israel built a wall around them does not mean they have power.

Have you Israelis fixed the runway your destroyed at Gaza airport yet ??

Can I fly into and out of Palestine without entering Israel ??

Judt

Sponge Bob wrote:

Just like the judenrat held all the power in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1942 I suppose.

Just because Israel built a wall around them does not mean they have power.

Have you Israelis fixed the runway your destroyed at Gaza airport yet ??

Can I fly into and out of Palestine without entering Israel ??

Read my post. The two-state offer was put on the table by Israel, and Slick Willy tried to get Arafat to sign right the way to his final morning in office. Arafat turned it down. You probably could fly into Gaza, if only for that.

Sponge Bob

Judt wrote:

You probably could fly into Gaza, if only for that.

Read my post, I cannot fly into Gaza simply because Israel destroyed the runway at the airport . Arafat and Clinton did not destroy the runway did they ??

Anyone can see it for yourself if they go to http://maps.google.com/ and look at the state of the runway just where the gaza/israel/egypt borders join together.

Slightly nw of that runway you can see the rubble of all the palestinian houses blown up by Israel in the Rafa refugee camp.

Judt

Sponge_Bob, a question: As I've asked before, how does throwing a sh*tfit help the situation? Yes, Israel has put the boot on the head of the Palestinians. Boo hoo Israel. The question is, how do we resolve this situation? Previously an answer, which gave the Palestinians everything they wanted and everything the Arab League put down in its solution, was agreed to by the Israeli's but not the Palestinians. That's the reality of the situation.

The Israeli's have shown that they are willing to come to the table and reason with the Palestinians. The Palestinian groups need to get their stuff together and do the same, and not make the same mistake Arafat did.

Sand

Sponge_Bob, a question: As I've asked before, how does throwing a sh*tfit help the situation? Yes, Israel has put the boot on the head of the Palestinians. Boo hoo Israel. The question is, how do we resolve this situation?

Judt, youve got completely the wrong attitude about this. Whats important here is throwing blame, wild accusations and one sided tirades about.

Read my post, I cannot fly into Gaza simply because Israel destroyed the runway at the airport .

Of course they did. The people and government of Gaza/Palestine are attempting to murder Israeli citizens daily, why would the Israelis allow their enemies to fly in weapons and bombs by air? Awfully unsporting of the Israelis Im sure but an obvious move on their part.

InFront

Judt wrote:

Saying "So sorry, terrible mistake" or "You're right, we should go back" is neither feasible nor going to help the situation.

Yes you're right, it isn't. As I said, it's too late to turn back the clock. I was just responding to the questions you posed a while ago (where else were Jews to go, would Palestinians be worried if the shoe were on the other foot, "finishing off" the holocaust, etc.) I was just answering the points you raised. Of course these points are irrelevant to the solution.

Everybody seems to be agreed on the solution to the Palestinian situation. It's one of those weird situations where we all know what has to happen from the outset, but we're just waiting for it. Nearly everything I've ever read on this conflict has began by telling us what the solution is! Crazy, I know.

It's like both sides are blindly going through the motions towards the inevitable.

The only thing I would say is that it doesn't look to me that this thread is about proposing a solution to the conflict. It's a thread about Israeli aggression. It is reasonable to expect to see criticism of Israeli activities in this kind of a thread. But again, I take your point, all we're doing is pointing out their failures. But not every discussion on this has to be limited to a solution. The activity in east Jerusalem is a current affairs topic worthy of debate imo.

Sponge Bob

InFront wrote:

It's like both sides are blindly going through the motions towards the inevitable.

Pretty much. Whatever chance there was of doing a deal with Fatah there is none with Hamas. All that is happening is that the Palestinians are subjected to worse depredations by the occupation with their land being stolen and occupied by racist settlers

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525893740&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I suppose on balance I should point out that the same settlers hate secular jews almost as much as they hate arabs and that they have been a parasitic growth on Israels body politic for years except that they are not allowed to shoot secular jews or build walls around them .

About a sixth of the population of the west bank are settlers now , a note on population .

Of course if you really intend to live in peace beside someone you

1. do not steal their land and deny them the right to feed themselves and educate themselves.
2. herd them into ghettos behind giant walls
3. treat them like animals and demonise them as animals or subhumans of some sort
4. complain bitterly arond the world when the oppressed react to this treatment , just like the brave prisoners who revolted in Sobibor and Treblinka reacted against hopeless odds but still asserted their humanity against the Nazis .

We saw it all in the early 1940s where the ghetto has been built and the heavily armed guards are on all the hilltops guarding the inmates of the ghetto and we know what happened next.

And I utter agree with Infronts comment that there is a horrible inevitability to all this. An abyss awaits.

Decent people cannot stand aside and allow a race to be exterminated by racist sociopaths which is what is happening in the west bank today.

I do not believe that Israel has been able to cope politically with the haredi ( fundamentalists ) for 20 years now and humours them instead. They have a effective veto on progress and human decency and compliance with international behavioral norms in the Knesset. They talk up war in every direction and refuse to fight the war , being exempt from military service themselves.

Its almost like the DUP having a veto on social policy in Brixton for want of an understandable analogy in these parts..but worse.

meditraitor

Sponge Bob wrote:

Of course if you really intend to live in peace beside someone you

1. do not steal their land and deny them the right to feed themselves and educate themselves.
2. herd them into ghettos behind giant walls
3. treat them like animals and demonise them as animals or subhumans of some sort
4. complain bitterly arond the world when the oppressed react to this treatment , just like the brave prisoners who revolted in Sobibor and Treblinka reacted against hopeless odds but still asserted their humanity against the Nazis .

.

Excellent point.

Maybe I am simlifying matters but when the state of isreal was created it did what any other victim does when it gets some power; abuse the closest weakest thing it can get it hands on, in this case it was the Palastinians.
The zionist state has no intention of ever giving the Palastinians a break. only recently(10/15 years) with the advent of the interweb has its cruelty and evil been aired to the outside world without the zionist media veting reports, we all see that there are two opposing sides carrying out attrocities almost daily but isreal is the real protaganist here, they enjoy beating up there neighbors(look at lebanon, as soon as it picks itself up of the floor and sorts itself out they use an excuss they could have used for years to go in and destroy everything built up in the ten years since they last ruined the country) just like any bully and it will only stop when it gets a clip around the ear by a bigger bully.
So hopefully the zionist lobby within the US looses its grip on power and some common sense takes over as they are the only other power big and bad enough to give them that slap!


P.S. I would like to hear a bit of honesty in some Pro Zionist points when they admit isreal is at fault,

Judt wrote:

Yes, Israel has put the boot on the head of the Palestinians. Boo hoo Israel.

Judt wrote:

Let's come to an agreement then: Israel is a big bully. Israel pushes its neighbors around and steals their lunch money. But, like all bullies, Israel is also fundamentally insecure.

The Israeli's don't like the arabs and the arabs don't like the Israeli's. As I keep saying, everyone needs to get past this point and on to "How do we live together?" Israel is far from an innocent party in all of this, but the fact is that there are over 7 million people living in the state of Israel who have as much a right to a life as anyone else. Yes Israel tramples on the rights of other people in order to maintain itself, but the alternative offered to them by the arabs is to be driven into the Med. It's an "Us or Them" situation for both sides, and nothing can come from that.

Sponge Bob

meditraitor wrote:

P.S. I would like to hear a bit of honesty in some Pro Zionist points when they admit isreal is at fault,

Zionism has not been as important as religous fundamentalism. Zionism was secular and socialist to a large degree , a "sinn fein" mentality in the classic sense .

The name means "ourselves" or "we ourselves". [2] Some popular accounts claim the name means "ourselves alone

The haredim who dominate the settlers and hold the balance of power in the Knesset for 20 years now are pure religious fundamentalists who believe that god has given them the right to conduct this genocide in Palestine. The haredim consider 'classic' socialist secular zionists to be a tad better than Arabs....but only a tad.

Most settlements in the west bank were created after the socialistic zionists lost their grip (monopoly even) on power in the 1970s and 1980s
Israels problem is that the majority will not stand up to these bigots for any length of time .

The haredim talk Israel into all sorts of wars and conflicts and refuse to fight themselves, having an exemption from military service in many cases . Israels defeat against Hezbollah was a consequence of that . The more secular jews refused to put bodies on the ground in south lebanon to fight for these people and the war was lost in the absence of bodies on the ground. It simply could not be won from the air.

The first sign of the majority in Israel standing up to these people will be when they remove the large scale exemptions from military service . It was the universal draft that knitted Israel together in the period from 1945-1980 and it is the fact that religous=exempt that is causing it to unravel.

We shall see. I am not hopeful . The Israelis have shown great cowardice in this respect for 20 years now .

Its unfortunately easier to dump a million cluster bombs into civilian areas in Lebanon , in a titanic fit of pique, than to face up to your own wackos as did the US in the Civil Rights era in the 1960s or the UK in slowly facing up to the Unionist wackos in the 1970s and 1980s .

Like I say, I am not hopeful

Judt

meditraitor, if you had read my entire point you'd note that Israel went all the way towards offering a two-state accord with the Palestinians. It was their government that turned it down. Of course the majority of the Palestinian people suffered, but their terrorist leaders were happy to have the situation continue. I think that's the great tragedy of this - the Palestinian leaders were offered a solution, the solution they wanted, and they backed off.

Israel has gone the distance for Palestine, and I don't think anyone should forget who squandered that deal.

The Palestinians are like the Germans post World War 1: Desperate. So they go and elect a "strong" faction who can solve all their problems, and then wonder what happened when a foreign army is overrunning the place. Fatah was bad. Hamas is worse.

Israel is no angel, but nobody can say they weren't prepared to cut the deal. What do you say to that?

Sponge Bob

Judt wrote:

Israel is no angel, but nobody can say they weren't prepared to cut the deal. What do you say to that?

Israel were not ready to remove over 200,000 racist religous fundamentalists from Palestinian land so they were not ready to cut any deal worth having were they ????

Show me the plan for removing these haredim and resettling them in pre 1948 Israel , there is no plan and was no plan .

You cannot expect the Palestinians to have to live beside this racist fuindamentalist scum or do you ???

What do YOU say to that??

Judt

Sponge Bob wrote:

Israel were not ready to remove over 200,000 racist religous fundamentalists from Palestinian land so they were not ready to cut any deal worth having were they ????

Show me the plan for removing these haredim and resettling them in pre 1948 Israel , there is no plan and was no plan .

You cannot expect the Palestinians to have to live beside this racist fuindamentalist scum or do you ???

What do YOU say to that??

I think you're ignoring my point to get irate: Israel was giving Palestine its own state, its own capital, everything they wanted. Thereafter the Palestinians could have done what they wanted. They could have brought in UN Peacekeepers to sit between themselves and anyone they wanted. They would have had a nation. But they didn't want to end the conflict, Israel did.

I'm not arguing about the virtues and vices of either the Israeli's or the Palestinians. I'm telling you that Arafat was offered all he wanted, and wouldn't take it.

Sponge Bob

Judt wrote:

I think you're ignoring my point to get irate: Israel was giving Palestine its own state, its own capital, everything they wanted.

No they werent

1. they would not give East Jerusalem.

2. they promised 94% of the west bank ....after 10-25 years

http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid2.htm

3. It would start with 73% of the west bank and with settler roads everywhere

. Land Area of Palestine

The initial area of the Palestinian state would comprise about 73% of the land area of the West Bank and all of Gaza. The West Bank would be divided by the road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and a corridor on either side of it. This would form two relatively large Palestinian areas and one small enclave surrounding Jericho. The three areas would be joined by a free passage without checkpoints, but the safe passage could be closed by Israel in case of emergency. According to Palestinian sources, there would be another division between the area north of the Ariel and Shilo settlements along the trans-Shomron highway built by Israel.

Thereafter the Palestinians could have done what they wanted. They could have brought in UN Peacekeepers to sit between themselves and anyone they wanted. They would have had a nation. But they didn't want to end the conflict, Israel did.

again HOW ???

SHOW us the plans for REMOVING the racist occupiers, all Arafat got was a vague 25 year thing. You cannot resolve anything in the west bank unless you remove the settlers. The Palestinians would have started with heavily armed settler nazis shooting at them from the hilltops and protected by the Israeli army . How is that an and to conflict ???

Palestinian areas would have been divided up by corridors controlled by the Israelis and the Israelis would have kept an extensve road network for their own exclusive use ???

http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid%20orient.htm

I'm not arguing about the virtues and vices of either the Israeli's or the Palestinians. I'm telling you that Arafat was offered all he wanted, and wouldn't take it.

73% is not ALL , is it ????
94% after 25 years is not ALL is it ???

Again I put it to you that Israel cannot deal with its fundamentalists . They are the tail that wags the Israeli dog and they get what they want . Show me the plan for getting these nazis off Palestinian land or just butt out , you make me sick with your justification of the nazi like ghettoisation of Palestine

By your impeccable logic rape victims no doubt also 'ask for it' because its 'all they wanted' .

meditraitor

Judt wrote:

Israel has gone the distance for Palestine, and I don't think anyone should forget who squandered that deal.?

Gone the distance my hole

Judt wrote:

The Palestinians are like the Germans post World War 1: Desperate. So they go and elect a "strong" faction who can solve all their problems, and then wonder what happened when a foreign army is overrunning the place. Fatah was bad. Hamas is worse.?

There you go again, comparing palastine to post world war 1 Germany, that has to be the most **** ********* ****** ************ ****** ** *** ever

Judt wrote:

Israel is no angel, but nobody can say they weren't prepared to cut the deal. What do you say to that?

Just leave it at that and stop making excusses for the suffering they have put the palastinians through for the past 50years,

The pro Isreal people of this world use the same excuss all the time
" it doesnt matter who started it, the palastinians still use acts of savagery to get their point across, blame blame blame"

But it does matter how it started, how can you fix a problem without acknowledging it root cause.

I have no faith in any solution to this tragedy as I feel that isreal doesnt care about anyone but isreal.

The Saint

Just in addition to what Sponge Bob wrote about Camp David I would like to add that Clinton and Barak knew that the the proposals at Camp David were non-runners. Thats why they went on to Taba to deal with the outstanding issues based on the Clinton Parameters. Israel walked out of those negotioations not the PA. Arafat actually called for the Israelis to come back but they didn't contrary to what Judt says.

On the Arab League summit in Lebanon all member voted in favour of it of which the PA is a member so to say Israel accepted it and the PA rejected it is just untrue. Israel welcomed it but said that a settlment would have to come through negotiations between the PA and Israel.

As for Israel being surrounded by hostile states - it has normal relations with Turkey, Jordan and Egypt. All other countries in the region accepted the Arab League declaration which indicates that they are more than willing to make peace with Israel.

As for a solution, I think the Clinton Parameters that were discussed in Taba offer the best chance still even after the Israelis walking out in 2001.

Judt

Israel is bad, m'kay? We've all agreed on this. But you want to leave it at that? What does that do? Let us get irate in thread after thread?

Yes, Israel looks out for Number 1. Who the hell doesn't? But Israel also knows at the end of the day that the best way of looking out for Number 1 was to give the Palestinians what they wanted, so then Israel can stop living in terror. Anyone in the room think that the Israeli's like losing their sons in the West Bank year after year trying to police the damn thing?

The Palestinians were promised 94%, yep. Better deal than what we got out of the British, who kept a whole 1/6 of the island when we got independence. When the other guy is a big badass with the capability to rain a whole lot of pain and suffering down on your head then you work with what you get. It's called compromise. Sure you're only compromising on what, technically speaking, should be yours in the first place, but until the Palestinians develop the best army in the world they can forget about what's rightfully theirs and work with what they've got.

The alternative is for Israeli's to live in fear, and the Palestinians to live in fear and poverty. Frankly, a bit of reality would do them good. They're never going to extort everything they want out of Israel - as we've seen, when they refuse a deal and meet violence with more violence then Israel just bombs the living bejasus out of them. Yes it's unjust, but I think it was Michael Collins who said something about stepping stones...

Sponge Bob

Judt wrote:

The Palestinians were promised 94%, yep.

73% and fragmentation is what they were promised.

Again I ask you , where was the plan to get the settlers off their land ?

There was some waffle about them getting 94% after maybe as much as 25 years which does not equate to a plan.

The alternative is for Israeli's to live in fear, and the Palestinians to live in fear and poverty. Frankly, a bit of reality would do them
good.

The only future for the Palestinians is if they get the Israelis off their land in full and if they agree permanent demilitarisation to boot. As long as they have the nazis on the hilltops there is no future for them , bar whatever final solution the Israelis have in mind for them