Beginner, which is best?

Rabies

I'm thinking about joining a martial arts club, but I'm not too sure what type to look for.

My overall aim is something to get me in to shape. Just started a new job, recently decided to take up a bit of jogging a few times a week, late 20's crisis kicking in

So, what is best for general fitness and stuff.

Thanks

Roper

Well, the simple answer is "the one you enjoy the most". What area do you live in and maybe you'll get a few more local recomendations

Baggio...

What about trying Muai Thai?

It's great for fitness and self-defense and is very enjoyable to train.

Millionaire

yeah I 2nd Muay Thai... there is no BS involved... and you get to hit pads and stuff almost immediate from your 1st session. and its a great workout to get in shape etc...

Kickboxing is good too. thats proper kickboxing which is similar to training to Muay Thai, (but not "point" fighting kickboxing).

Plus in time if you want, you will get to learn to spar which is fun.

And their both handy for self defence too.

Look at youtube on my clip to see me working Thai pads it gives you an idea (thankfully I have improved alot, and lost the beer gut and flab since I did that clip!).

astfgl

I think you need to say what else you want to get out of training, because you can train pretty much anything to get into shape, depending on how hard you train.
Muay Thai is a good choice, but if you aren't interested in striking, BJJ is also good, or if you are interested in both try MMA training.

NeiloMac

Judo,

Great workout, great fun

Baggio...

astfgl wrote:

I think you need to say what else you want to get out of training, because you can train pretty much anything to get into shape

True..

If it's for pure self-protection - I'd definitely go for something like Combatives, but I'm a tad biased. If you are into the "art" side of things go for some kind of Traditional Martial Art like American Kenpo... But I'm biased there too.:)

Try a few different styles to see which suits you best. Watch out for all the politics...;)

Unpossible

Try a few things, you might find you don't like getting smacked around and would prefer grappling (or vice versa).

Also just because one striking art doesn't suit you doesn't mean you shouldn't try another.

The Shane

From a pure aesthetics point of view I find boxers to be somewhat overdeveloped around the midsection, with stringy arms.

I find thai boxers to have smaller legs, and more geared towards endurance training than other martial arts.

The traditional image of shoulders, chest flat midsection and strong legs is best achieved through wrestling/judo. The nature of these sports is that they are fought over one round mostly. The training is high end anaerobic which builds fuller muscles and achieves that traditional muscular look.

I personally wouldn't bother with kenpo (just look at the instructors) or most of the other TMAs. If sport and competition are what you're into go for a tkd club with a strong competition focus, or a light contact kickboxing club (both short generally single rounds).

It does however really come down to what you're into. what exact shape are you looking for and what secondary goals you have.

my own personal preference is sub wrestling.

Shane, The
awaits a backlash

Roper

Hmmm, should I back Shane up or row in as a diplomat? Oh the dilemma. Anyway, what he says is basically true, anything predominantly kata/patterns based is less likely to be a good workout.

paddyc

I'd like to reply... but i have to get a step ladder to stand on:D

rabies if your anywhere near my place fell free to call out for a look

paddy

Baggio...

paddyc wrote:

abies if your anywhere near my place fell free to call out for a look

paddy

I'd definitely check out Paddy's place if you get a chance!

Baggio.

bjj-fighter

I'd also recommend Paddy.Hes a great coach and his classes are really good.Another option is MMA or just BJJ with John Kavanagh.Hes also a great coach and a sound guy

Rabies

Sorry, should have said, I don't live in Ireland.

Baggio, I'm not after something for self protection. A good work out for the session is what I'm after. Learning moves is an added bonus. I find gym work to be boring to be honest, and I'm not looking to build big muscles.

Don't know if a full contact or grappling sport is what I'm after. Would try out one or two of each and then decide.

Not sure if I'm explaining what I'm looking right

There is a martial arts shop in the city centre, will ask in them for idea and phone numbers of places. Wanted to get a general feel for things from people first and see what your opinions are.

Baggio...

Rabies wrote:

Baggio, I'm not after something for self protection. A good work out for the session is what I'm after. Learning moves is an added bonus. I find gym work to be boring to be honest, and I'm not looking to build big muscles.

Well Muai Thai fits the bill - 'cept for the full contact aspect. If you can't hack that then go for something like American Kenpo/TMA but if you don't like learning lots of Kata, forms and techniques go for something like or semi-contact Kick boxing. It will give you a very good workout. Best of luck with it...

Black Swan

Rabies wrote:

Sorry, should have said, I don't live in Ireland.

Hi Rabies! Have seen your posts around boards lately. In addition to some of the advice given already here, would suggest that you shop around. Look before you leap. No matter the MA, your master and instructors in terms of how well they teach can really make a difference. If they are grand, then you can catch the MA spirit from them. Depending upon the city you are located, especially if it's large, you can often find a discounted try-out period ranging from one session to a whole month.

spiral

well where do you live ?

FiannaGym.com

Baggio... wrote:

If you are into the "art" side of things go for some kind of Traditional Martial Art like American Kenpo... But I'm biased there too.:)

I just have to nip this in the bud.... American Kenpo is just a made up style its deinately not "traditional".

Peace

memphis

Hello stranger. My goodness, Rabies wants to do some MA eh? Welcome to the dark side chief. As for the whole mid 20's crisis, forget about that whole "i'm too old for this sh!t" notion, cos you are most certainly not too old.

I started back at TKD when i was 23 and am hoping to be a Black belt this time next year (all going well), am now nearly 26!

Anyway, you say you are no longer living in Ireland, just curious to know, but where are you residing these days? I seem to have lost contact with all ye guys i started off in IT course with back in 2000.

cowzerp

The Shane wrote:

From a pure aesthetics point of view I find boxers to be somewhat overdeveloped around the midsection, with stringy arms.

Shane this must be a piss take. boxers who focus on been very light might be thin but sport does not shape your body-genetics do this. if you are light weight odds are you'll be thin and if your heavyweight you'll be big with big arms. abs are important to power so boxers will have strong midsections. thats a positive.

Colm_OReilly

sport does not shape your body-genetics do this

What!? :eek:

This to me is akin to every overweight person saying it's down to genetics or metabolism. No, it's down to how you treat your body by and large.

So lately, in the last six months or so, I've worked a lot on benching, dips and pull ups, as a result I've bigger shoulders.

I've also ate more and done less cardio, so my belly has grown.

Is this genetic?

Genetics provide us with the brain cell ability to process sight but they've sewn kitten's eyes shut for the first six weeks of their life (scientists really are sadistic) and when they opened up the kittens eyes they were still blind as the brain cells had been put to different use. While genetics may predispose someone to a certain body type if they don't use/abuse that they won't develop.

To use a kerrazy example for the purposes of illustration. If twins got into marathon running and powerlifting, would their bodies develop along the same lines?

Colm

Valmont

as with all nature vs nurture debates, a compromise is the answer. Genetics do play a significant role as does exercise. Some people have to try a lot harder than others to gain weight or to lose it. I wouldn't agree with genetics as an excuse not to make an effort though!

Valmont

Colm_OReilly wrote:

What!? :eek:
Genetics provide us with the brain cell ability to process sight but they've sewn kitten's eyes shut for the first six weeks of their life (scientists really are sadistic) and when they opened up the kittens eyes they were still blind as the brain cells had been put to different use. While genetics may predispose someone to a certain body type if they don't use/abuse that they won't develop.

What about the identical twin studies? Scientists found that identical twins adopted into separate families at birth still shared, in their adult lives, similar I.Q, temperament and personality traits with eachother more so than their adoptive families.

Your bang on with the last point. Someone who is predisposed to being slightly large may just have to train that bit harder than someone who is predisposed to being skinny.

cowzerp

colm your missing the point! boxers come in all shapes and sizes as do judo players and all other styles too. you can gain or lose weight by training and diet but cant make a slender bloke into a big bouncer type by doing sports--weights can build muscle but not in a way that small build people become big build people-build and muscle type is genetic and decides what muscle types you have and then its your job to maximize your potential-otherwise all bjj players would be the same build. :rolleyes:

Rabies

I live in a fable land, where men are men, and sheep are scared.
Auckland, New Zealand

Colm_OReilly

cowzerp,

I get where you're coming from, and it's borne out of both of us not going into total detail with our posts.

The Shane's and mine's point though is that different sports do tend to develop you differently. If you look at male gymnasts, they tend to have very close to the classic greek musculature. Swimmers, however, don't appear to be that muscular.

From my observations boxers do tend to be somewhat ropier than wrestlers, who tend to be a bit bulkier (even at lower weights)

Colm

cowzerp

the thing is people are usually born with the tools for certain things like gymnastics-boxers can be very tall and lanky or small and stocky-again this can dictate the way they fight-boxer or fighter for example-boxers generally are lower in body fat than wrestlers so this would be 1 thing where wrestling is more about lifting strenght than striking strenght that a boxer would possess, training will always work like this- lift weights get strong-do cardio get fit.. if your genes will allow it...

The Shane

I move that that response be stricken from the record, it demonstrates only a limited view of fitness. Limited as a description is a kindness. Read What is fitness on the crossfit website

"training will always work like this- lift weights get strong-do cardio get fit.. if your genes will allow it..." - Aww Hell no.


If you look at high end competitors in any sport they will most certainly have a genetic make up which will allow them to excel in that sport and not much use in a lot of other sports. Example Michael Jordans attempt at baseball.

Now you take an average guy with a base genetic make up, not really suited for anything at a high level but who with effort and training can compete with enjoyment and mixed success at most physical endeavours then the training will heavily influence his appearance.

I'm not too bothered about finding photos to post here, but if you look at a great deal of boxing training it emphasises core work. For good reason, strong core equals boxing success. With this comes well developed musculature around the midsection, developed above and beyond the other major muscle groups. This lends a thick look around the waist and arms which in comparison look small.

I'm sorry if you take offence at this, but if you look at any bodybuilding judging, they judge in certain ratios. The thickness of wrist to forearm, forearm to arm, arm to chest, chest to waist. I don't advocate getting pro-bodybuilding big, but in broad terms these ratios on athletic individuals are seen to be attractive - the thicker boxer midsection falls outside this ideal.

So if someone was asking for a sport that would make them look better naked, I wouldn't necessarily advocate boxing. If you wanted to strike better, be generally fitter and be confident in your defence capabilities. Boxing is great.


Paddy - You have previously expressed a fondness for long distance running as part of fight training for a thai boxer. This brings with it, thinner legs. I accept that the round structure and scoring of thai bouts requires a lot of endurance, which will in typical training counteract hypertrophy of the muscle from squatting etc. 'sall I was saying. I think you have very pretty legs.


Now to the point I was making originally. I think high end judoka or wrestlers are the closest to the traditional ratios, while still doing a functional martial art. Martial arts with sparring are a must for anyone interested in fitness gains, as the outside force of someone trying to take you down, knock you out, pin you, stab you with a fencing foil etc etc motivates. Kata has no external motivating forces.


We can settle all this with a manly pose off.


Shane, The
Anyone who disagrees can join the Dove - campaign for real beauty.

cowzerp

Im a qualified personal trainer so know what im talking about when it comes to fitness, abdominal muscles in boxers are known to be extremely strong but this does not mean they are big muscles, abs are very small tight to the bone muscles and dont grow like the bulkier muscles like chest and back muscles-my arms are quite big compared to my torso and this is genetic, i also know boxers who have tiny arms but usually also tiny bodies too! wrestling needs big strong bodies so thinner lads will not usually compete at wrestling, this is why most wrestlers are big built-marathon runners are built thin and are designed for marathon running where sprinters are powerful and built for speed-the training just hones these already made bodies. boxers come from all body types as do mma fighters, but not wrestlers sprinters or marathon runners-i would not take offence anyway as i dont fight for vanity reasons.

Millionaire

yes cowzerp there is a western boxer training in same muay thai camp as me (they train boxers there too), he is from USA, and is as skinny as a scrawney chicken.

However, the dude sure can work in the body shots, with excellent snap power in this punches. he showed me a slight refinement on how to improve my own body shots, and the bloke can sure pack a wallop.

As a matter of interest Cowzerp 2 questions on boxing...

say in a daily training...how many sit up type exe's would a boxer do?

When boxers are sparring in the gym do they go 50% 70% or 100% full power on sparring partner?

(most muay thai pros I see over here go on average 30% when sparring...they take it very light... maybe cause they fight so much, they do not want to get injured in sparring???)

cowzerp

Millionaire wrote:

As a matter of interest Cowzerp 2 questions on boxing...

say in a daily training...how many sit up type exe's would a boxer do?

When boxers are sparring in the gym do they go 50% 70% or 100% full power on sparring partner?

(most muay thai pros I see over here go on average 30% when sparring...they take it very light... maybe cause they fight so much, they do not want to get injured in sparring???)

1-The sit up stuff is still done and usually when done is about 10-15 mins non stop stomach exercises-most boxing coaches that do this are a little old school as now they do more advanced ab exercises such as the sledge hammer and if you seen rocky balboa he had a barrell and was smashing it over his head to the ground-this is the same thing! apart from that boxers develop strong midsections by all the violent twisting that is done when correctly punching.
2. in my experience boxing sparring is always 100% unless there is weight difference, then the bigger lad takes it down more to his opponents power-thats in theory but if you seen the smacks i got off a heavyweight the other day you might not believe me!! only injuries are bloodied noses and occasional rib bruising-in full on sparring, if i hurt you i would not finish you off like i would in a real fight-thats the only difference..

paddyc

shane


i thought you meant we had smaller legs ie length wise:)

I think you have very pretty legs.

and after that last comment shane if i didnt know you i'd be afraid of ya:p

paddy

The Shane

Cowzerp - your assertion is only correct at high levels. There are ideal bodytypes for certain sports. Pysiologically speaking different adaptions suit different sports. Better insertion points on muscles will aid an athlete in strength based sports, in particular powerlifting and weightlifting. Shorter limbs might also prove beneficial. That is not to say that someone who started doing these sports but was two metres tall with poor insertion points would not enjoy them, benefit from them and have a physiological response from them.

Weightlifting and powerlifting are pure technique sports and as such can we can very easily see these things in an athlete, whereas boxing, wrestling, judo, etc etc are all mixes of skill and technique and body suitability cannot be as easily judged.

Your perception of wrestlers as big lads is somewhat off the mark. Most of the good wrestlers I've trained with have been small enough guys (in comparison to me, 87kgish) with well developed musculature. I've also seen many very big wrestlers, that's why there are weight divisions. I just feel that the wrestlers training (judoka included in that) builds the most classically attractive physique. It also has an excellent blend of strength, cardio high and low level and flexibility. Boxing does not have as good a blend for overall fitness.

I will concede that there seems to be a movement in boxing away from the endless situps that gave rise to the shape that I'm referring to. However this only seems to be among the higher level fighters. These newer developments seem not to have filtered to the general training clubs around. It is still very much hundreds of sit ups, which will overdevelop the midsection. These muscles can get large and I have seen many people with this development.

I would have expected a firmer understanding of fitness from a personal trainer than the comment I quoted in my previous post conveyed.

Paddy, don't be afraid.

Shane, The
Fitness Instructor (NCEF), Pilates Instructor (Stott), Weightlifting coach level 1 (IAWA), SAQ coach level 1, Lifeguard (IWS), Crossfit enthusiast.

cowzerp

Shane when i say big lads i dont mean heavy lads-i mean well built fella's-you could be 60kg and well built. as seen as your a fitness instructor you should understand that hundreds of reps dont build muscle but increase muscular endurance, boxing is the most rounded training and contains aerobic, anaerobic, strenght and hand eye co-ordination-the only let down is flexibility which is ignored. wrestling is anaerobic in nature and thats fine but not aerobic so i dont know where that came from! when i said lift weights get strong etc... i was being very general as this was not a fitness topic.
paul cowzer
fetac health+fitness tutor
ncehs fitness instructor
ncehs personal trainer
issa personal trainer
nesta personal trainer
iaba boxing coach and all the scabby extra courses that i will not count.
but qualifications dont make a trainer-love of the industry and experience mainly do that. shane we'll agree to disagree as i dont think your being realistic. remember boxers are probably the lowest body fats of all sports and this is because they have to diet to make ridiculous weights-training boxing wont make you skinny if you dont diet. thats why i stopped competing at boxing.

Colm_OReilly

mmm, qualifications aside I'm going to add in my few cents.

I've had the opportunity to witness premier level training in a lot of sports - rugby, gaa, wrestling, boxing.

As regards boxers and their low bodyfat percentage, I will strongly disagree. While watching boxers make weight for competition I've seen their diets - and they're dire. Still eating bread with instant soup, and Nesquik chocolate milk as meal supplements if they're really cutting. Paleo? Forget about it.

I knew high school wrestlers who used to cut 15-20 lbs and they knew how to drop weight quickly to make weight, then replenish.

I'd imagine gymnasts would have an even lower bodyfat percentage.

As regards well rounded training no sport has well rounded training, to do so would be counterproductive. All sport supplementary training (i.e. training beyond technique/skill/strategy) should develop the athlete for that sport.

Any well rounded training would be for overall fitness, and not activity specific.

Colm

cowzerp

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I've had the opportunity to witness premier level training in a lot of sports - rugby, gaa, wrestling, boxing.

As regards boxers and their low bodyfat percentage, I will strongly disagree. While watching boxers make weight for competition I've seen their diets - and they're dire. Still eating bread with instant soup, and Nesquik chocolate milk as meal supplements if they're really cutting. Paleo? Forget about it.

I knew high school wrestlers who used to cut 15-20 lbs and they knew how to drop weight quickly to make weight, then replenish.

Colm

colm while i agree that some boxers have bad diets i would say this is more about education-mostly at kids level where kids eat what there given.
in my last competitive fight i had a body fat of 3.6% and done it by losing 1 kg a week over about 10 wks, you say high school wrestlers used to cut 15-20 pounds quickly-this is not a good thing as it just dehydration and some boxers do this too, last thing-im paleo whats wrong with this? better hit the sun room!!!!!!!!!!

Colm_OReilly

i would say this is more about education-mostly at kids level where kids eat what there given.

High Performance Team, Olympic Year.:rolleyes:

My comment on Paleo was designed to highlight their ignorance of proper diet, paleo rules.

Colm

LukeyJudo22

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I knew high school wrestlers who used to cut 15-20 lbs and they knew how to drop weight quickly to make weight, then replenish.

Just curious on how exactly they used to do that?

I've no doubt that they did but I'm just wondering how exactly, maybe I'll learn something new.

Cheers

Nothingcompares

Shane how come you don't do judo?

memphis

Rabies wrote:

I live in a fable land, where men are men, and sheep are scared.
Auckland, New Zealand

New Zealand, eh? Well for some. And as for the sheep... well of course there scared... particularly with you living there. LOL :P You walked into that one bud!

Memphis 1 - 0 Rabies

The Shane

i don't do Judo because I happened upon sub wrestling and prefer the no gi game. I quite like training in Greco.

As for the anaerobic side of wrestling, I find, and research backs me up that interval training at high intensities increases aerobic fitness as well as anaerobic fitness. Moreso than the opposite situation. The anaerobic and power dependent nature of wrestling and judo lend then to fuller more "attractive muscles". It's all aesthetics, some girls like fat blokes.

To cite body fat is somewhat redundant. You and I both know that the only legitimate way of measuring it is to cut you up. How committed to that argument point are you? :-)

Colm is correct in saying that there are other sportsmen out there who are much leaner than boxers. It is a somewhat empty statistic.

Hundreds of reps will over time build thicker muscle, I've seen a fair few step aerobics instructors with very thick calves and quads, no real defininition but just thick.

Shane, The
Willing to let this rest now.

HammerHeadGym

The Shane wrote:

...It's all aesthetics, some girls like fat blokes...

You don't happen to have any of their numbers do you?

HammerHeadGym

cowzerp wrote:

...boxing is the most rounded training...

No it's not. Crossfit is. With MMA being a close second I would say. And actually in a study done a few years ago, ballet was ranked as more rounded than boxing. It actually came second only to American football. And bear in mind it was only American sports that were studied, and it was also before the advent of MMA. I can't remember the name of this off hand, but it's in the new york city ballet workout book. Worth a look too, i might add. Their core work is especially intensive.

I'd be inclined to side with Shane on this one, as time (and wikipedia) invariably proves him right. Not to be smart with you or anything, but you did tell me recently that you would recommend banana's and popcorn as 'healthy' snacks.

D

HammerHeadGym wrote:

that you would recommend banana's and popcorn as 'healthy' snacks.

Wait, bananas aren't healthy snacks?

cowzerp

HammerHeadGym wrote:

Not to be smart with you or anything, but you did tell me recently that you would recommend banana's and popcorn as 'healthy' snacks.

Bananas and popcorn are healthy snacks-are you mad or something-popcorn full of salt obviously is not healthy but i never mentioned salt-and all fruit is healthy, i train mma and boxing and bjj and all have there own qualities-in my opinion boxing training is more rounded because you skip do shadow boxing ,bags jogging and sparring in 1 session-this is just my opinion but at least i train all and can make a comparison-my last boxing fight my body fat reading was 3.6 and i was ripped, if you dont trust the machines thats fine-use your eyes-top boxers are always leaner than top mma fighters-chuck is my favourite and has a pot belly!! this is not uncommon in mma and is only seen in the heavys in boxing as there is no max weight. anyway i think this is being dragged off topic, opinions are always welcome!

crokester

Chucks belly isnt fat though, its bloating caused by his generous usage of Human Growth Hormone!!

Clive

:rolleyes:

Rabies

anyway i think this is being dragged off topic, opinions are always welcome!

Just a little

But still an enjoyable read.

Millionaire

crokester wrote:

Chucks belly isnt fat though, its bloating caused by his generous usage of Human Growth Hormone!!

No....thats Dianabol that bloats your belly!

crokester

Millionaire wrote:

No....thats Dianabol that bloats your belly!

Also reffered to as HGH

Millionaire

crokester wrote:

Also reffered to as HGH

No No! HGH is not DBalls...far from it.

Dianabol

http://www.greatmanjohn.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28

HGH

http://www.greatmanjohn.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40

Dianabol is cheap. HGH is very very expensive.