Chin-ups VS. Overweight

SGKM

I'm a 21 year old guy and I weighed myself the other day (for the 1st time in a while!!) To my suprise I'm about 11.5 stone but I'm only about 5'6'' , which gives me a BMI of 26 (Overweight). I go to the gym 3 times a week so I'd call myself fairly fit. So it got me thinking...

You know the way that they say that if you can't do x amount of push ups in 1 set, its awful and you're overweight / understrength.

What is that for chin ups in 1 set? What is a decent amount of chin-ups to be able to do in 1 set?

rubadub

26 is only barely overweight. If you are going to the gym you could well be deemed overweight- but due to muscle mass. The BMI scale is useless for people who have lots of muscle, most probodybuilders would rate as highly overweight. Bodyfat is a far better judge, or just look in the mirror...

When I started I could do no chinups, now almost a year on I can do about 13.

Many starting can do none, but most people can manage a pushup. One way to really get started is doing slow negatives, stand on a box/chair and lower yourself down from the chin up position. I did this a few times and was soon knocking them out no problem.

Vain

rubadub wrote:

26 is only barely overweight. If you are going to the gym you could well be deemed overweight- but due to muscle mass. The BMI scale is useless for people who have lots of muscle, most probodybuilders would rate as highly overweight. Bodyfat is a far better judge, or just look in the mirror...

When I started I could do no chinups, now almost a year on I can do about 13.

Many starting can do none, but most people can manage a pushup. One way to really get started is doing slow negatives, stand on a box/chair and lower yourself down from the chin up position. I did this a few times and was soon knocking them out no problem.

i say its like weights imn reps of 12 maybe ?

davyjose

With pushups you're pushing 60-70% of your bodyweight, with pullups it's almost 100% (minus from the elbows down, I suppose). The pushup is a much more compound exercise as well, so you're going to struggle with pullups more.
OP how many can you do? If your having trouble doing more than 5 or 6, you can also try gripping with your palms turned in, at about shoulder width apart - this will use more of your bicep and so effectively, more muscle will be used to pull you up, making it slightly easier.

I_and_I

I remember when I started using weights I could do about 20 in a row but I stopped doing chin ups for months and then when I went back with all the weight I had put on I could only do 9 or so.

SGKM

I got 17 chin ups today, I wasn't sure if that was good or not. But by the sound of things its alright! When I started out in the gym in June I could only do 4 or 5 and I was only about 10.5 stone then!

I do 4 sets "to failure" with 2 minute intervals. is that a good way to do them? or is there a better way?

davyjose

That's pretty good SGKM, what you can start doing now is maybe, try adding a bit of weight, maybe 5/10kilos - or whatever it takes to bring that down to about 8 reps - and work from there.

Diamondmaker

Savage !!

I was on muscle beach last month and there is a burger joint that offers discount for every chin up you can do up to 50 ( surely nearly impossib;e ) for a free lunch.
I did 26...I did not get a burger though!

Im pretty chuffed now!

Dragan

Bodyweight is the all important thing. I have a friend who will knock out chins for days at a weight of about 185 lbs.

For a long time i could not do chins, i was just to heavy and as a result was too weak at the movement ( to get strong at a movement do the movement ) and the difference between lat pulls and chins is pretty massive.

Right now i can do 6 chins at a weight of 238 lbs, which is pretty decent.....if i was 180 lbs i could do chins all day!!!! However, i don't want to be 180 lbs, so give me a few more months and i will be knocking out 12 to 20 chins.

Look at your bodyweight then look at your reps, but generally speaking double figures for sets is nice and strong.

TerrorFirmer

I'm 180lb and can do about 12-15.

Also what qualifies as a full chin - I obviously let my body hang down completely so I'm pulling my entire body up - but I always see people doing what I suppose you'd call 'cheat' chin ups - not extending their arms very much so it's much easier to pull yourself back up.

rubadub

HavoK wrote:

but I always see people doing what I suppose you'd call 'cheat' chin ups - not extending their arms very much so it's much easier to pull yourself back up.

And what about getting your head/chin uo and over the bar. Many have bars in doorways with only 6" space ontop so cannot get that high up, they might get up but are way back from the bar. Sometimes I do them and pull myself up really far, so my chest is touching the bar.

Sometimes I hang at the end for a while, and get another one out and hang on again until I can no longer take it.

Beelzebub

SGKM wrote:

I got 17 chin ups today, I wasn't sure if that was good or not. But by the sound of things its alright! When I started out in the gym in June I could only do 4 or 5 and I was only about 10.5 stone then!

I do 4 sets "to failure" with 2 minute intervals. is that a good way to do them? or is there a better way?

That's pretty damn good!

When I first attempted chins, I couldn't do even 1!
But after doing pulldowns/pulley rowing and the other various back exercises I found that I was much stronger in the exercise. To the point where I could do sets of 20 reps.
Now my weight is against me and I can manage 6 reps per set.
I wouldn't even think of adding weight yet until you can achieve 3 - 5 sets of 10 reps.(Try both overhand and underhand grips - say 2 sets of each)
I would use it as a finishing exercise after doing a heavier movement like T-Bar rowing, Barbell rowing or Deadlifts.

because_I_can

Beelzebub wrote:

I wouldn't even think of adding weight yet until you can achieve 3 - 5 sets of 10 reps.

why?
its just the same as any other exercise. those extra reps wont make you much stronger but will build extra muscle which is just needless weight. If you're a bb'er then work away but if you're an athlete leave that extra pound of muscle for the Post Chain.

I do sets 3 sets of 5 or 3 reps with whatever extra weight i need to make sure the last rep on the 3 set is a grinder.

justsomebloke

because_I_can wrote:

why?
its just the same as any other exercise. those extra reps wont make you much stronger but will build extra muscle which is just needless weight. If you're a bb'er then work away but if you're an athlete leave that extra pound of muscle for the Post Chain.

I do sets 3 sets of 5 or 3 reps with whatever extra weight i need to make sure the last rep on the 3 set is a grinder.

I would agree with this

BossArky

Yesterday I did 3 sets of 6.

First and second sets were fine, last 2 of the last set were a struggle. That was at the end of a work out so will try today or tomorrow at the beginning for 8 or so.

justsomebloke

BossArky wrote:

Yesterday I did 3 sets of 6.

First and second sets were fine, last 2 of the last set were a struggle. That was at the end of a work out so will try today or tomorrow at the beginning for 8 or so.

Do you not think that doing the same movement 3 days in a row (at least), to what seems like it could be to failure, isn't going to lead to overtraining.

BossArky

Yeah that is why I specified today or tomorrow. Tomorrow and the day after are looking unlikey though as I will be away, so perhaps an easy session tonight.

justsomebloke

BossArky wrote:

Yeah that is why I specified today or tomorrow. Tomorrow and the day after are looking unlikey though as I will be away, so perhaps an easy session tonight.

sorry it is late on a friday, so I thought you said today and tomorrow, anyway go for tomorrow at least then you may have given your muscles more time to recover

Beelzebub

because_I_can wrote:

why?
its just the same as any other exercise. those extra reps wont make you much stronger but will build extra muscle which is just needless weight. If you're a bb'er then work away but if you're an athlete leave that extra pound of muscle for the Post Chain.

I do sets 3 sets of 5 or 3 reps with whatever extra weight i need to make sure the last rep on the 3 set is a grinder.

Some corrections/clarifications
1: It's not just the same as any other exercise - it's a free standing exercise which you can derive enormous benefit from without extra weight. and one that can be enhanced by using extra weight.(Dips is a similar exercise in this regard but it is often regarded as a shoulder damaging one)
But yes like other exercises when you can comfortably get 10-12 reps or so then you should add extra resistance if you want further benefits in terms of development and strength.

2: You've contradicted yourself by saying that this exercise will build extra muscle which is needless?, weight?
But surely he would get stronger again by lifting that extra(needless?) weight.
That's why you are advocating adding extra resistance isn't it?

3: Doing the extra repetitions on any exercise though doesn't guarantee that you will gain extra weight
There are a lot more factors involved in gaining muscular weight than doing extra reps, I wish it were that easy!

And I thought SGKM was interested in being able to do many chinups as he could from his post.

Quote from SGKM's last:
"SGKM I got 17 chin ups today, I wasn't sure if that was good or not. But by the sound of things its alright! When I started out in the gym in June I could only do 4 or 5 and I was only about 10.5 stone then!

I do 4 sets "to failure" with 2 minute intervals. is that a good way to do them? or is there a better way?"

I am deducing that he is doing 4 sets of 4-5 reps from this.
If he adds weight he will get even less reps possibly as low as 1 or 2 and I question the benefit/value of this at his stage of training.
Whereas if he was getting around 10/12 reps per set he could then think of adding extra resistance (and or negatives) and possibly be then knocking out 5 reps per set, thus obtaining enormous benefit from both a strength and BB point of view.
For general fitness higher reps is the way to go.
The kind of system you are using is for more advanced trainers and I don't believe that SGKM is at this stage yet.

cowzerp

Men are meant to be able to do 10 pull ups-this is a guideline to see if your strenght to weight ratio is correct-most advanced trainers can easily do this..

SGKM

Beelzebub wrote:

I am deducing that he is doing 4 sets of 4-5 reps from this.
If he adds weight he will get even less reps possibly as low as 1 or 2 and I question the benefit/value of this at his stage of training.
Whereas if he was getting around 10/12 reps per set he could then think of adding extra resistance (and or negatives) and possibly be then knocking out 5 reps per set, thus obtaining enormous benefit from both a strength and BB point of view.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I do them to failure with 2 minute intervals, so on the 1st set I usually get 16 reps, then 9/10 on the 2nd set, 8 on the 3rd and 6 on the 4th set.

I was talking to one of the fitness team in the gym and he told me to add weight to get it down to something like 12, 7, 5, 2. Would that be about right or is there a better way of doing it?

Exar Khun

For pull-ups try the Armstrong program, yut yut.
http://grove.ufl.edu/~marine/docs/armstrong.pdf

justsomebloke

Beelzebub wrote:

But yes like other exercises when you can comfortably get 10-12 reps or so then you should add extra resistance if you want further benefits in terms of development and strength.

why wait till you can do 10 before moving up the weight. I have to say I generally wouldn't wait till I can do 10 before moving up a weight especially if my goal is strength above size

Beelzebub wrote:

2: You've contradicted yourself by saying that this exercise will build extra muscle which is needless?, weight?
But surely he would get stronger again by lifting that extra(needless?) weight.
That's why you are advocating adding extra resistance isn't it?

again 8-12 reps is more the rep range that aims at hypertrophy so again you are aiming for a rep range will target size gains as oppose to purely looking at strength gains, for strength gains a smaller rep range should be used, so more weight for fewer reps.

Beelzebub wrote:

3: Doing the extra repetitions on any exercise though doesn't guarantee that you will gain extra weight

yes however it also doesn't mean you are maximising your chances of doing more reps

Beelzebub wrote:

And I thought SGKM was interested in being able to do many chinups as he could from his post.

yes and that is why we are looking at it purely from a strength building angle

Anton17

I can just about do 3 sets of 12 chins. How do I set about adding weight? I've never seen anyone in the gym do this?

tribulus

Just get a chain and hook it through some plates to add resistance.

t-ha

In addition to Trib's post, you can also get belts with hooks & chains & they're a bit easier on your back than a chain.

I've also simply held dumbells on my ankles.

because_I_can

Beelzebub wrote:

Some corrections/clarifications
1: It's not just the same as any other exercise - it's a free standing exercise which you can derive enormous benefit from without extra weight. and one that can be enhanced by using extra weight.(Dips is a similar exercise in this regard but it is often regarded as a shoulder damaging one)
But yes like other exercises when you can comfortably get 10-12 reps or so then you should add extra resistance if you want further benefits in terms of development and strength.

2: You've contradicted yourself by saying that this exercise will build extra muscle which is needless?, weight?
But surely he would get stronger again by lifting that extra(needless?) weight.
That's why you are advocating adding extra resistance isn't it?

3: Doing the extra repetitions on any exercise though doesn't guarantee that you will gain extra weight
There are a lot more factors involved in gaining muscular weight than doing extra reps, I wish it were that easy!

And I thought SGKM was interested in being able to do many chinups as he could from his post.

Quote from SGKM's last:
"SGKM I got 17 chin ups today, I wasn't sure if that was good or not. But by the sound of things its alright! When I started out in the gym in June I could only do 4 or 5 and I was only about 10.5 stone then!

I do 4 sets "to failure" with 2 minute intervals. is that a good way to do them? or is there a better way?"

I am deducing that he is doing 4 sets of 4-5 reps from this.
If he adds weight he will get even less reps possibly as low as 1 or 2 and I question the benefit/value of this at his stage of training.
Whereas if he was getting around 10/12 reps per set he could then think of adding extra resistance (and or negatives) and possibly be then knocking out 5 reps per set, thus obtaining enormous benefit from both a strength and BB point of view.
For general fitness higher reps is the way to go.
The kind of system you are using is for more advanced trainers and I don't believe that SGKM is at this stage yet.

Thanks for the corrections/clarifications.

Beelzebub

jsb wrote:

why wait till you can do 10 before moving up the weight. I have to say I generally wouldn't wait till I can do 10 before moving up a weight especially if my goal is strength above size



For one thing to achieve a good basic conditioning of the muscles involved before extra resistance is added (ie before beginning a resistance program), so as to decrease the chances of injury.
(Not normally for advanced trainers who have built up this good basic conditioning or they should have)

For another thing to achieve good form in this exercise, which I believe is one of the most important apects of any exercise program. This will stand you in good stead when you add extra resistance. It will also help minimise the risk of injury.
Bad/sloppy form can increases it.


again 8-12 reps is more the rep range that aims at hypertrophy so again you are aiming for a rep range will target size gains as oppose to purely looking at strength gains, for strength gains a smaller rep range should be used, so more weight for fewer reps.

Anywhere between 5 - 12 reps will stimulate hypertrophy.
You should use a variety of reps if you wish to optimise your strength levels, it really depends at what stage you are at in your strength cycle.
You cannot just train with the same rep structure all the time.

yes however it also doesn't mean you are maximising your chances of doing more reps - Irrelvant to My point. I never said it did.
I have actually found that going from 5 x 10 without weight to the stage of 5 x 6 with 30lbs extra resistant enabled me to do more reps without weight eg sets of 20 reps. But it's all relevative. If you lift a really heavy weight for one rep then you will find that the lighter weights you were having difficulty with will seem much lighter and you will be able to do more reps with them.
This the basis of progressive resistance.

yes and that is why we are looking at it purely from a strength building angle

This is not a core strength building exercise. The biceps are the prime movers here therefore the limiting factor, it is dependent on those small muscles, therefore you are limited in the degree of strength you will achieve from this exercise.
You will however improve the strength of the muscles involved to some degree.
If you are wishing to develop explosive or brute strength for a sport then you are barking up the wrong tree.
It really depends on what kind of strength you are talking about or what you wish to develop the strength for.

If you are wishing to just purely do more reps then I think the link posted by Exar Khun:

"For pull-ups try the Armstrong program, yut yut.
http://grove.ufl.edu/~marine/docs/armstrong.pdf"
may be of more benefit.