How much do nurses get paid?

mickoneill30

With the news in the media about pending strikes most people say that nurses should be getting paid more. Most people don't know what they get paid though (me included) and our media just give us the soundbites. So what's the average wage for a nurse after 1, 5 or 10 years. I had a look at Irishjobs.ie but some of the wages there are huge and can't be standard.

Moonbeam

www.ino.ie

coolmoose

newly qualified staff nurse will start on 28878,

After 5 years, 35904

After 10 years, 42165 (this is the maximum end of the scale)

This is after completing a 4 year degree. Take a Clinical Therapy Grade as a comparison (Speech & Language Therapy, Occupational Therapy etc.(

Start on 35348. After 5 years 40652. After 10 years 46164 (assuming they're not promoted to Senior Therapist which brings a different payscale again - higher!)

So there is a valid case for a pay rise for nurses. Plus the fact that they are the ONLY officer grade in the Health Service working a flat week of 39 hours, versus 35 hours of all the other officer grades.

mikemac

I hear a lot of talk about nurses pay but noone seems to mention they get a generous state penion, more generous than most private sector companies get anyway.
How many thousand per year is that worth?

Not saying they deserve a pay rise or they don't, it just seems to be something most commentators overlook.

Dr Galen

we do get the pension alright, but its standard across the health service. We don't get any more just because we're nurses.

The present pay campaign is looking for several things but 3 things stand out and i'll briefly point them out.

firstly we are looking for the correction of the situation we're qualified nurses are getting paid on average 3k ess than care staff that actually answer to the nurse. These care workers often have no more than a cert level of education and as I say are directly answerable to the nurses on the unit. No nurses would say that these care staff aren't entitled to their money, they work damn hard for it. But it hardly makes any sense for the nurse to get paid less than the people that they are in charge of......

secondly as mentioned above, nurses ar ethe only officer grade that still work a 39 hour week. all others work no more than a 35 hr week. again, thats fair enough for the other grades, but not exactly a level playing field.

and thirdly, nurses are looking for (again as mentioned above) a level playing field with other grades of health professional educated to the same level within the health service.

If anyone is more interested in the other claims, you'll find them all on www.ino.ie along with the pay rates for nurses of all grades, right up to senior nurse management.

chump

Compare it to an average private sector worker after their 4 yr degree course. There are numerous opportunities to upskill - you have a choice.
And what about over-time?

And you can't just rule out the 'perks' because the other health care workers get them too.

The package is excellent for a graduate - with ample upward scope.

The reason why people working in the Speech & Language Therapy, Occupational Therapy and Physio departments earn more money is likely to do with their jobs being regarded as more demanding (intellectually?), and hence historically a higher wage was needed to attract the 'right' people into those fields.

Surely you, and all nurses, could have opted to pursue a career in those fields?

What do nurses get paid in other countries?

Greed in my eyes.

Dr Galen

There are numerous opportunities to upskill - you have a choice.

can you explain what you mean here? opportunites to upskill?

And what about over-time?

of course there is overtime as in most jobs. I donl;t really see your point on this one

The reason why people working in the Speech & Language Therapy, Occupational Therapy and Physio departments earn more money is likely to do with their jobs being regarded as more demanding (intellectually?), and hence historically a higher wage was needed to attract the 'right' people into those fields.

historically you are partially right. but also there is an element that these other grades have negotiated individually on their pay levels, even the past few years when soical partnership has been constantly touted as the only agreement in town. getting away from that though, the role of the nurse has changed dramatically, nurses NOW are educated to the same standard as these other health professionals and perform a vital role for the patient.

considering that now we have a shortage of nurses in this country and are constantly importing nurse form other countries here, maybe a reviewed wage structure is whats needed to attract and keep the RIGHT people nursing in Ireland.

Surely you, and all nurses, could have opted to pursue a career in those fields?

of course i could have. but why should? I wanted to be a nurse, not a physio or a doctor. if you ask most health care workers they very rarely are in it for the money. that argument is used time and time again and to my mind, it doesn't hold water. just because i choose to be a nurse, doesn't mean that i have to just put up with my lot and get on with it. your entitled to your view though man.

What do nurses get paid in other countries?

i don't have figures to hand, indeed such numbers are hard to find to be honest because i've tried looking for them. but i've had some success and when i do get my hands on them i'd be happy to post them or PM em to ya, jsut for reference

Greed in my eyes

so based on what i said in my previous post, this is what you come up with. thats fair enough, your entitled to your view. In fact I'd say no matter what i say you'll think that. your entitled to. but at least hear the arguments out before coming to that kinda position

mickoneill30

nurse_baz wrote:

secondly as mentioned above, nurses ar ethe only officer grade that still work a 39 hour week. all others work no more than a 35 hr week. again, thats fair enough for the other grades, but not exactly a level playing field.

To be honest I think this should be leveled out too. The other grades should go up to 40 hours a week in line with the private sector. Having approx 282 hours a year or 7 weeks less a year to work doesn't sound bad to me. I know you do overtime. So do I and most people. I really need to get a job where I'm paid by the hour rather than by the year

Dr Galen

mickoneill30 wrote:

To be honest I think this should be leveled out too. The other grades should go up to 40 hours a week in line with the private sector. Having approx 282 hours a year or 7 weeks less a year to work doesn't sound bad to me. I know you do overtime. So do I and most people. I really need to get a job where I'm paid by the hour rather than by the year

while i see your point her on level playing fields with the private sector, i think you also need to compare like with like.

fair enough if your job is the same as mine, or even related to it. but comparing say a sales rep or maybe a manager in an insurance company to a nurse or physio etc isn't really the same. i'm not trying to put your job down here. if say your working in HR in a private company then you should be comparing yourself with someone working in HR in the public sector. i'm sure thats easy enough to do. in fact i'd be very intereted to see how that pans out if you did.

and for people information, i worked in the private sector for 6 years in different roles and levels before i went back to do my nursing degree and do they job i do now. so i have seen both sides of the fence. but my private sector jobs had nothing like the stress or responsibility that i would have now.

mickoneill30

Mine job isn't the same as yours or related. I could work in the public sector and I know people who do. They do seem to get paid less for the same job but they do have some perks not available to me (time off being one of them).
Conversly nurses do have options in the private sector too. On IrishJobs.ie there are a hell of a lot of jobs there for 40,000 - 50,000. I'm presuming that like my industry there are jobs on that site for more money but they don't put down the wages for the bigger jobs (so they can get the potential employee to name their price).

Dr Galen

typically the private sector nursing jobs are advertised with maximum earnings as the salary, bascially if the person worked all the overtime/weekends/nights availible thats what they would come out with. good money i'd agree but realistically no one in any job does that. its more or less the same as a sales job being advertised as 40,000 OTE, i.e if the person made all their targets in the first year thats what they would come out with. more often than not though the basic is much less than that.

mick.fr

I personnaly know 2 french nurses working here, being paid 50k. French diploma, beeing here 2 years only.

Dr Galen

mick.fr wrote:

I personnaly know 2 french nurses working here, being paid 50k. French diploma, beeing here 2 years only.

indeed......


seriously though, i'm not doubting you as such, but the line " in know a bloke/mate/man who says......." isn't really that credible in an online debate/discussion forum.

maybe those 2 french nurses are earning that much. but i'd ask them where they are working and what they're basic is? How much overtime etc etc

chump

nurse_baz wrote:

can you explain what you mean here? opportunites to upskill?

well isn't there opportunity to study further and become pediatric, psychiatric, ic, stoma, etc. etc. nurses? Or am I wrong?



of course there is overtime as in most jobs. I donl;t really see your point on this one
Well in fact there is not overtime in most jobs - in many jobs people have to work unpaid overtime, in order to 'get the job done'. In many cases peoples overtime payments are quite meager supplements





historically you are partially right. but also there is an element that these other grades have negotiated individually on their pay levels, even the past few years when soical partnership has been constantly touted as the only agreement in town. getting away from that though, the role of the nurse has changed dramatically, nurses NOW are educated to the same standard as these other health professionals and perform a vital role for the patient.

when you say nurses are now educated to the same standard as the other health professionals - what do you mean?


considering that now we have a shortage of nurses in this country and are constantly importing nurse form other countries here, maybe a reviewed wage structure is whats needed to attract and keep the RIGHT people nursing in Ireland.

do we even have the RIGHT people in nursing now I ask?






of course i could have. but why should? I wanted to be a nurse, not a physio or a doctor. if you ask most health care workers they very rarely are in it for the money. that argument is used time and time again and to my mind, it doesn't hold water. just because i choose to be a nurse, doesn't mean that i have to just put up with my lot and get on with it. your entitled to your view though man.

very rarely in it for the money? You are threatening to go on strike for more money + fewer 'standard' hours - with the likely probability that you'd work the same amount of hours but get paid more in 'overtime'. I'd imagine quite a proportion of nurses beef up their salaries quite nicely with overtime payments. And if there's a lack of nurses what will happen if their hours are cut to 35hrs?

i don't have figures to hand, indeed such numbers are hard to find to be honest because i've tried looking for them. but i've had some success and when i do get my hands on them i'd be happy to post them or PM em to ya, jsut for reference

please do, thanks



so based on what i said in my previous post, this is what you come up with. thats fair enough, your entitled to your view. In fact I'd say no matter what i say you'll think that. your entitled to. but at least hear the arguments out before coming to that kinda position

I hear your arguments but I believe nurses are well provided for as is.
I would also question your comparison of nurses to other health care professionals - physio, speech, etc.

Do you, in the regular course of duty (being a standard nurse) diagnose people & stamp your approval on a particular course of action? What is your liability?

Could you tomorrow decide to go out on your own and set up a private Nursing practice - or would you have to undergo some further training/accreditation?

Is it very difficult to get a job in your field? (cf. physio, speech therapy fields)

see bold text above

Wishbone Ash

chump wrote:

And what about over-time?

Earnings can only be compared on basic earnings as the waters are muddied otherwise. Everyone's circumstances are different. Some nurses on a basic of €42,000 may earn over €100,000 but that is irrelevant. It's the basic that counts.

chump wrote:

in many jobs people have to work unpaid overtime, in order to 'get the job done

When you say "unpaid overtime" do you mean at flat rate or totally unpaid. I don't think it's wise to make comparisons with those who are foolish enough to work for nothing

mickoneill30

Wishbone Ash wrote:

When you say "unpaid overtime" do you mean at flat rate or totally unpaid. I don't think it's wise to make comparisons with those who are foolish enough to work for nothing

Welcome to the private sector. Well technically it's not working for nothing. Generally your contract stipulates that you'll work the hours required. This doesn't mean I work more than 40 hours every week but if I'm required to I have to. When my salary gets compared to another persons salary in the public sector this should be taken into account. I can't go on strike and I can be replaced, not too easily though but nobody's indispensable. My industry gets pointed at as a benchmark when other people are looking for more money. They tend to forget the other bits like time off, pension, overtime pay (or lack of) etc. Money is only one part of your package.

mountainyman

mickoneill30 wrote:

I can't go on strike

why not if you aren't in a union isn't that your look out?

MM

mickoneill30

mountainyman wrote:

why not if you aren't in a union isn't that your look out?

MM

Of course. Most people aren't in unions. I accept the fact that I get paid more and have to do more work. It is my lookout and I accept it.

MisterAnarchy

All these Public Sector pay increases are putting a massive burden on the State.
When the economy cools down the Government wont be able to maintain the inflated wages of the public sector.
It will break the country.

Dr Galen

well isn't there opportunity to study further and become pediatric, psychiatric, ic, stoma, etc. etc. nurses? Or am I wrong?

yes there is. but in say a 450 bed hospital, there is only a handful of advanced nursing positions, even though such jobs have been promised many many times. but thats a different debate lol.

and to point out that psychiatric or paediatric nurses aren't actually a step above the registered nurse that you might encounter on the wards. they just work in a different branch of the field, like for example civil and mechanical engineers

Well in fact there is not overtime in most jobs - in many jobs people have to work unpaid overtime, in order to 'get the job done'. In many cases peoples overtime payments are quite meager supplements

well what am i meant to do about that? Feel guilty because public sector workers get more overtime? nursing is definitely the overtime bonanaza that you might think. sure, some people do loads of it but most don't, mainly becasue its not availible. sure if we had a properly staffed nursing service would that not do away with overtime altogether

when you say nurses are now educated to the same standard as the other health professionals - what do you mean?

considering that now we have a shortage of nurses in this country and are constantly importing nurse form other countries here, maybe a reviewed wage structure is whats needed to attract and keep the RIGHT people nursing in Ireland.

do we even have the RIGHT people in nursing now I ask?

A good point alright. but we're not going to be able to attract better and brighter people into the profession paying wages that don't compare with the job that nurses have to do.

very rarely in it for the money? You are threatening to go on strike for more money + fewer 'standard' hours - with the likely probability that you'd work the same amount of hours but get paid more in 'overtime'.

so you think working for less money than the people that are answerable to you is an ok situation?

and that nurses should bw happy getting paid less than people just as qualified as us, who work less hours?

as for the overtime, i've already mentioned that its not as common as you are making out.

I'd imagine quite a proportion of nurses beef up their salaries quite nicely with overtime payments. And if there's a lack of nurses what will happen if their hours are cut to 35hrs?

the 35 hr week could be phased in over a period of time, which is basically how the Labour Court suggested it could be done. Realistically, i'd be pretty sure that this is how it would HAVE to go. it couldn't just happen overnight. I'd be happy if thats what did happen too.

I hear your arguments but I believe nurses are well provided for as is.
I would also question your comparison of nurses to other health care professionals - physio, speech, etc.

Do you, in the regular course of duty (being a standard nurse) diagnose people & stamp your approval on a particular course of action?

yes we do. physios + other professionals don't do this. they make suggestions to the medics who then decide or not to take them on board.
we regularly decide on what course of action to take with a patient, especially seeing as the nurse is the only person who is with the patient 24/7 and not 9 to 5. with the advent of nurses being able to prescribe medications that diagnostic function will become even more important.




Could you tomorrow decide to go out on your own and set up a private Nursing practice - or would you have to undergo some further training/accreditation?


i'm not sure what you mean here. midwives do this,and they are nurses......

Is it very difficult to get a job in your field? (cf. physio, speech therapy fields

well yes. career prospects in nursing are pretty limited and you would be no way guaranteed to get a job in the area that you wanted.

Newaglish

coolmoose wrote:

newly qualified staff nurse will start on 28878,

After 5 years, 35904

After 10 years, 42165 (this is the maximum end of the scale)

This is after completing a 4 year degree. Take a Clinical Therapy Grade as a comparison (Speech & Language Therapy, Occupational Therapy etc.(

Start on 35348. After 5 years 40652. After 10 years 46164 (assuming they're not promoted to Senior Therapist which brings a different payscale again - higher!)

So there is a valid case for a pay rise for nurses. Plus the fact that they are the ONLY officer grade in the Health Service working a flat week of 39 hours, versus 35 hours of all the other officer grades.

The 2006 points requirements:

Speech & Language Therapy:
UCC - 530
TCD - 530
NUIG - 520

Occupational Therapy:
UCC - 525
TCD - 510
NUIG - 500

General Nursing:
UCC - 410
TCD - 360/390
NUIG - 405

While nurses may come out negatively in a comparison against Clinical Therapy grades for pay, the points requirements as a simple quantitative comparative would suggest that the work requires a higher degree of difficulty and/or ability on the part of the employee.

The pay scales you cited are for a person who has done a 4-year degree. What scope is there for further learning? If you have a masters, or an add-on business qualification, can you move into more technical or managerial roles? My sister last week had an interview for a nursing job paying €50k plus a year as an assistant to the director of nursing (if I remember correctly), which she attained in part to a part-time nursing management degree she completed.

Other than the fact that care workers are getting paid more than you (which is a valid complaint, though perhaps they are overpaid?), I don't fully understand why nurses would deserve a pay-rise. I'm not entirely clued-in on public sector pay schemes, but would I be right in saying you receive a benchmarked annual pay increase anyway?

coolmoose

i find it's always a contentious debate, and a lot of nurse bashing goes on by those who don't have the slightest idea of what the career is like.

i trained as a nurse, and previous to this worked as a hospital porter and a care assistant. i also spent time involved with the INO and student nursing organisations. while i have decided to not pursue nursing as a career (which was in no way linked to this subject) i have first hand experience of the career.

the situation of supervising staff that get paid more than you is ridiculous, and based purely on this anomaly the pay increase is justified. We're trying to get bright intelligent young people into nursing, to spend 4 years studying, only to come out and be paid less than a healthcare assistant grade that they must then supervise! (no disrespect to care assistantas intended, i was one!)

well isn't there opportunity to study further and become pediatric, psychiatric, ic, stoma, etc. etc. nurses? Or am I wrong?

you're correct, but not all nurses want to specialise! also, if everybody did specialise, there would be no general nursing staff to look after patients on the wards!

considering nursing staff make up almost 80% of the clinical workforce (i.e. direct patient contact workforce), their claim for parity with other healthcare professionals (therapies etc.) must be given serious consideration. all study a 4 year BSc Degree now, and yet nursing staff come out with less money, and work more hours, longer shifts and more unsociable hours.

this is not a case of "oh pity us!" from the nurses of this country...it is a claim for equal treatment with grades that they work with every day.

I'd imagine quite a proportion of nurses beef up their salaries quite nicely with overtime payments

afriad not, overtime is not that prevalent in nursing! and besides, overtime is not what is being discussed here, it is the basic salary. i know EMTs and porters who clear over €80,000pa with overtime, but that's their choice, their basic is much lower, and that's the key issue!

Do you, in the regular course of duty (being a standard nurse) diagnose people & stamp your approval on a particular course of action?

every day. the nursing diagnosis process is performed on every patient, and suggestions are made to the medical team regarding treatment options.

Could you tomorrow decide to go out on your own and set up a private Nursing practice - or would you have to undergo some further training/accreditation?

most private practices set up by healthcare professionals are specialised when you think about it...nurses who have specialised may end up in private practices outside of the mainstream hospital services (i.e. night nurses, Occupational Health nurses, school nurses etc.)

at the end of the day you're entitled to your opinion, but the reality is a lot of nurses garduating in ireland today work in the irish health service for 6-12 months and leave, heading either for different careers (occ therapy, speech therpay, medicine etc where pay and conditions in general are better) or head abroad where pay and conditions are far better.

the key issues to recruiting and retaining nurses in ireland are pay and conditions of work.

coolmoose

While nurses may come out negatively in a comparison against Clinical Therapy grades for pay, the points requirements as a simple quantitative comparative would suggest that the work requires a higher degree of difficulty and/or ability on the part of the employee.

if you knew anything about the cao points system it is that ability and intelligence are nothing to do with the level of points for a course...high points equal high demand for the course! the points requirements for some engineering courses are in the 200s, and i would not consider myself intelligent enough to undertake one of these courses!

The pay scales you cited are for a person who has done a 4-year degree. What scope is there for further learning? If you have a masters, or an add-on business qualification, can you move into more technical or managerial roles? My sister last week had an interview for a nursing job paying €50k plus a year as an assistant to the director of nursing (if I remember correctly), which she attained in part to a part-time nursing management degree she completed.

yes you can, and obviously more qualifications equal more pay (if you get the right position). but pay rises for DON and managerial grades are not the issue that's being discussed, it's the staff nurse or senior staff nurse level on the ward dealing with patients, who may not have a desire to specialise or move into management positions.

I'm not entirely clued-in on public sector pay schemes, but would I be right in saying you receive a benchmarked annual pay increase anyway?

nurses have opted out of benchamrking due to a very complicated run around by the benchmarking body...suffice to say that the pay claim, 35 hour working week and parity with therapy grades would not have been adequately dealt with through benchmarking (as decided by INO and PNA executive councils)

Wishbone Ash

mickoneill30 wrote:

This doesn't mean I work more than 40 hours every week but if I'm required to I have to. When my salary gets compared to another persons salary in the public sector this should be taken into account

Nurses are waged not salaried. They get paid per hour worked. Therefore any comparison with salaried workers is inaccurate.

mickoneill wrote:

I can't go on strike

Why not? The right for a worker to join a trade union is enshrined in our constitution. AFAIK there are very few occupations where workers cannot go on strike - Army and Gardaí spring to mind. In other occupations, workers are paid extra money and have a 'no strike' clause in their contract (e.g. LUAS drivers).

mickoneill wrote:

They tend to forget the other bits like time off, pension, overtime pay (or lack of) etc.

Time off ?? - every employee is entitled to statutory annual leave/time off. I don't understand the point you are making.

The nurses doing overtime are keeping the hospitals going and the HSE would collapse without them. Overtime payments are made for extra hours worked. This has nothing to do with basic pay. There are over 40,000 nurses on the register but only about 26,000 are practising. If it was so lucrative, I'm sure more would be at it.

mickoneill30

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Nurses are waged not salaried. They get paid per hour worked. Therefore any comparison with salaried workers is inaccurate.
....
Why not? The right for a worker to join a trade union is enshrined in our constitution.
....
Time off ?? - every employee is entitled to statutory annual leave/time off. I don't understand the point you are making.

Are you being pedantic on purpose now? Or are you serious?

leeroybrown

Newaglish wrote:

While nurses may come out negatively in a comparison against Clinical Therapy grades for pay, the points requirements as a simple quantitative comparative would suggest that the work requires a higher degree of difficulty and/or ability on the part of the employee.

Nonsense. The CAO point system is entirely based on supply and demand. A popular (by which I mean fashionable) course with a small number of available places will automatically have high points regardless of it's difficulty.

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

considering that now we have a shortage of nurses in this country and are constantly importing nurse form other countries here, maybe a reviewed wage structure is whats needed to attract and keep the RIGHT people nursing in Ireland.

You dodged his question. Do you think that nurses are educated to the same degree as other health professionals? Are you implying that nurses are educated to the same degree as doctors? That would be an interesting statement. If you are counting years spent in college then forget about it tbh, not all college years are equal if you know what I mean.


Tbh, looking at your payscale, it really isn't that bad. You've a good pension, as you said shared by many other groups, but compared to the private sector it's quite nice really. There's also the issue of, having a degree doesn't mean you should get paid more. Don't buy into that too much, it's a useful rule of thumb but that's about it.

nesf

coolmoose wrote:

i find it's always a contentious debate, and a lot of nurse bashing goes on by those who don't have the slightest idea of what the career is like.

I agree with you but some of it is justified. Don't tar all of it as irrelevant.

coolmoose wrote:

afriad not, overtime is not that prevalent in nursing! and besides, overtime is not what is being discussed here, it is the basic salary. i know EMTs and porters who clear over €80,000pa with overtime, but that's their choice, their basic is much lower, and that's the key issue!

It is relevant though. To focus only on basic, rather than the average working week is misleading when it comes to discussing pay. Similar to how discussing only the basic wage with sales jobs is generally very misleading. Nurses don't have access to the kind of overtime that's available in some professions, or at least that's what I've gathered from my friends who are nurses, but it still is relevant to any discussion about nurse pay.

coolmoose wrote:

at the end of the day you're entitled to your opinion, but the reality is a lot of nurses garduating in ireland today work in the irish health service for 6-12 months and leave, heading either for different careers (occ therapy, speech therpay, medicine etc where pay and conditions in general are better) or head abroad where pay and conditions are far better.

the key issues to recruiting and retaining nurses in ireland are pay and conditions of work.

This is a problem in many areas. However, raising pay in all those areas would be a bad thing. Wage increases do add to inflation (including cost of living increases ironically) and they don't happen in a vacuum. If group A gets an increase of X then group B who used to be paid more than A but no longer isn't demands X+1. This isn't an argument against nurses getting a pay increase necessarily but arguing that raising pay for nurses isn't automatically correct because we need more people to stay in nursing.

Dr Galen

You dodged his question. Do you think that nurses are educated to the same degree as other health professionals? Are you implying that nurses are educated to the same degree as doctors? That would be an interesting statement. If you are counting years spent in college then forget about it tbh, not all college years are equal if you know what I mean.

i didn't think i dodged the question, but I'll answer it now,no problem.

I didn't mention doctors in my statements. We are claiming pay parity with the other "therapy" grades though, and for those not aware that is the likes of physiotherapists, occupational therapists, dieticians and the like. Are we as educated to the same level as them? In my opinion yes, all of us have different educations but on the whole we are educated to the same level. we all come out with basic science degrees at the end of our 4 years.

but compared to the private sector it's quite nice really.

i donlt realy get this incessant linkage to the private sector. i've made the point already, nurses as such don;t work in the private sector. we work pretty much all in the public sector. and those who work say in the private hospitals by and large come off better than those in the public sector.

if your comparing like with like ie public nurse with private nurse then fine. Just because you or anyone else works in the private sector doesn't mean that your not allowed to look for an improvement in your conditions should you feel it is deserved.

There's also the issue of, having a degree doesn't mean you should get paid more. Don't buy into that too much, it's a useful rule of thumb but that's about it

again this may be true in other non medical occupations but not so in nursing. The nursing degree is only 5 years old now, before that it was a diploma course. Nurses now, on leaving college, are educated to a higher academic standard, the same level as other therapy grades, so thats where the justification for a higher wage comes from.

i could see your point if we were talking about say an administration clerk or manager. where having a degree may not be the most important thing in the world, as long as your organised and such. But since the nursing education chaneover, student nurses must spend an extra year in college and work to a higher level of academic acheivement in order to gain their registration than before. Yet the salary has not increased in line with this.

Dr Galen

I agree with you but some of it is justified. Don't tar all of it as irrelevant.

could you explain to me when nurse bashing is justified?

It is relevant though. To focus only on basic, rather than the average working week is misleading when it comes to discussing pay. Similar to how discussing only the basic wage with sales jobs is generally very misleading. Nurses don't have access to the kind of overtime that's available in some professions, or at least that's what I've gathered from my friends who are nurses, but it still is relevant to any discussion about nurse pay.

i agree that it has some relevance alright, but not much. like I've said before there isn't a sea of overtime out there. you might come out with a few euro extra at the end of the year with your overtime, but not a lot, and certainly not some of the mad numbers eing bandied about all over the place.

and when I talk about overtime, i mean over and above our normal 39 hour week. Premium pay isn't what i mean, just to clear it up. that is, extra pay for sundays, night duty, bank holidays. to be honest, after soing my shifts for the week and dealing with all that goes with it, i have no more urge to do any overtime!

This is a problem in many areas. However, raising pay in all those areas would be a bad thing. Wage increases do add to inflation (including cost of living increases ironically) and they don't happen in a vacuum. If group A gets an increase of X then group B who used to be paid more than A but no longer isn't demands X+1. This isn't an argument against nurses getting a pay increase necessarily but arguing that raising pay for nurses isn't automatically correct because we need more people to stay in nursing

your logic is sound here, and i've seen it happen before, but really i think the HSE, and the public need to decide how important are the nurses in the overall system? as someone else mentioned we make up nearly 80% of the hospital workforce, but yet are in dramatic shortage across Ireland and indeed the world. if anyone can come up with a better solution to keep nurses in the country and the profession i'd be all for hearing it!

is that how things should be? kinda like " well even though these lads kinda deserve the increase, we can't do it because the other lads will kick off" i dunno that just seems wrong to me.

Dr Galen

The pay scales you cited are for a person who has done a 4-year degree. What scope is there for further learning? If you have a masters, or an add-on business qualification, can you move into more technical or managerial roles? My sister last week had an interview for a nursing job paying €50k plus a year as an assistant to the director of nursing (if I remember correctly), which she attained in part to a part-time nursing management degree she completed.

why is it so hard for some people (and this is not a dig at you personally) to understand, that some of us don't want to be managers or adminstrators!

I've been down that road, and had a team of 40 working for me, and hated it. I enjoy being able to help people and do something for them.

I like helping to make people well again, helping "your granny" walk again after breaking her hip, or consoling "your mother" when she's just been told she has breast cancer, or making sure that when "you've" just had your gallbladder out and the wound gets all infected, its the right type of dressing that we're putting on, and that your geting the right type of pain medication every 4 hours.

sure i can specialise in certain areas, and do further courses, eg mostly diplomas, but i don't get shag all more for that. and the complete lack of higher nursing practice positions prevents me from moving much higher up the clinical ladder.

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

I didn't mention doctors in my statements. We are claiming pay parity with the other "therapy" grades though, and for those not aware that is the likes of physiotherapists, occupational therapists, dieticians and the like. Are we as educated to the same level as them? In my opinion yes, all of us have different educations but on the whole we are educated to the same level. we all come out with basic science degrees at the end of our 4 years.

That's fair enough, for a bit there I thought that you were trying to say that nurses are educated (or go through as much penance depending on your perspective) as doctors which I'd strongly disagree with tbh.

nurse_baz wrote:

i donlt realy get this incessant linkage to the private sector. i've made the point already, nurses as such don;t work in the private sector. we work pretty much all in the public sector. and those who work say in the private hospitals by and large come off better than those in the public sector.

Most of the country work in the private sector though and will judge your pay demands based on what they see in the private sector. I wasn't trying to say that you should be paid according to private standards, it was more that public opinion will be swayed by this. (and considering that this is a public sector issue public opinion is relatively important in this, look at what happened to the teachers for instance)

nurse_baz wrote:

again this may be true in other non medical occupations but not so in nursing. The nursing degree is only 5 years old now, before that it was a diploma course. Nurses now, on leaving college, are educated to a higher academic standard, the same level as other therapy grades, so thats where the justification for a higher wage comes from.

i could see your point if we were talking about say an administration clerk or manager. where having a degree may not be the most important thing in the world, as long as your organised and such. But since the nursing education chaneover, student nurses must spend an extra year in college and work to a higher level of academic acheivement in order to gain their registration than before. Yet the salary has not increased in line with this.

There are two main points here. The first is that the change from diploma to degree doesn't actually inherently warrant a pay increase. This has happened in many sectors in recent years where previously you needed a lesser qualification for a particular job. The second is that academic achievement should not equate your pay packet. This attitude is in this country in quite a few fields but you should not instantly be paid more simply because you happen to have spent more time in college. There is a large gap between academic achievement and practical experience and ability, which I'm sure you are very much aware of.

I do remember when it was changed though, I had a friend who begun just after the changeover year and I remember the bitching about it!

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

could you explain to me when nurse bashing is justified?

I phrased that badly. I was more trying to get across that not all criticism of nurses is nurse bashing.

nurse_baz wrote:

i agree that it has some relevance alright, but not much. like I've said before there isn't a sea of overtime out there. you might come out with a few euro extra at the end of the year with your overtime, but not a lot, and certainly not some of the mad numbers eing bandied about all over the place.

and when I talk about overtime, i mean over and above our normal 39 hour week. Premium pay isn't what i mean, just to clear it up. that is, extra pay for sundays, night duty, bank holidays. to be honest, after soing my shifts for the week and dealing with all that goes with it, i have no more urge to do any overtime!

Agreed, to a large extent, as I said I've a few friends doing it and I've seen the hours they work and they are not huge. It's more the idea that only basic pay was relevant that I was arguing against.

nurse_baz wrote:

your logic is sound here, and i've seen it happen before, but really i think the HSE, and the public need to decide how important are the nurses in the overall system? as someone else mentioned we make up nearly 80% of the hospital workforce, but yet are in dramatic shortage across Ireland and indeed the world. if anyone can come up with a better solution to keep nurses in the country and the profession i'd be all for hearing it!

is that how things should be? kinda like " well even though these lads kinda deserve the increase, we can't do it because the other lads will kick off" i dunno that just seems wrong to me.

Again I do partially agree, as I said I wasn't sure if it was an argument to not raise nurses pay. I view it as an argument against the idea of nurses being automatically entitled to a pay increase, which is an argument that many workers in many sectors could be making, but honestly there is little point in increasing everyone's wages if increased inflation will eat the pay rise within a year.

Mainly I'm still not convinced that nurses are underpaid. I don't think that yee are lavished with cash, but I don't think that yee are getting royally screwed in every pay packet either. So it's difficult for me to decide where I fall on this.

Dr Galen

for fecks sake why can't you just make up your mind.
i don't know whether to continue arguing with ya or not

seriously i don't think we are at polar opposites of the scales of thought here, and its nice to have proper debate with someone, who is open to seeing other points of view.

Now on this whole, you don't think nurses are underpaid lark.......why donlt you come in and work with me next week.......then we'll meet back here and see what ya think

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

for fecks sake why can't you just make up your mind.
i don't know whether to continue arguing with ya or not

If I'd already made up my mind about it I wouldn't waste my time arguing about it. I'm really only interested in arguing about stuff that I'm either unsure about or stuff where my position is open to attack. By arguing I learn more about the topic, as is happening here.

nurse_baz wrote:

seriously i don't think we are at polar opposites of the scales of thought here, and its nice to have proper debate with someone, who is open to seeing other points of view.

Again, if we were at polar opposites I probably wouldn't bother arguing, or at least I wouldn't put any effort in and would be only doing it out of boredom.

nurse_baz wrote:

Now on this whole, you don't think nurses are underpaid lark.......why donlt you come in and work with me next week.......then we'll meet back here and see what ya think

Heh. I guarantee you I've worked harder and dirtier jobs for far less money (removing, installing and overhauling sewage pumps for just under £1.50 an hour anyone?). Though it would have been about 10 years ago when I had zero experience and there weren't in a position to find anything better.

Wishbone Ash

nesf wrote:

Most of the country work in the private sector though and will judge your pay demands based on what they see in the private sector. I wasn't trying to say that you should be paid according to private standards

Are you saying that public sector employed nurses should be compared to private sector nurses? Nurses working in the private sector are paid the same as those in the public sector. AFAIK nurse employers pay the going rate as agreed with the Health Service Employment Agency. There may be some smaller differences in Terms and Conditions of employment and in Local Bargaining.

nesf

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Are you saying that public sector employed nurses should be compared to private sector nurses? Nurses working in the private sector are paid the same as those in the public sector. AFAIK nurse employers pay the going rate as agreed with the Health Service Employment Agency. There may be some smaller differences in Terms and Conditions of employment and in Local Bargaining.

No. As I said, the reason why the comparison with the private sector is relevant is because a lot of the general public will judge this issue from their perspective as well as the nurses'. This is why it will come up in threads like these and in the media. Nurses in public hospitals are paid out of the country's pocket and it is only natural for people to take an interest and offer an opinion.

I did not mean to infer anything more than that, I don't know enough about private nurses to make valid comparisons since I only know nurses working in the public sector.

Dr Galen

nesf wrote:

No. As I said, the reason why the comparison with the private sector is relevant is because a lot of the general public will judge this issue from their perspective as well as the nurses'. This is why it will come up in threads like these and in the media. Nurses in public hospitals are paid out of the country's pocket and it is only natural for people to take an interest and offer an opinion.

I did not mean to infer anything more than that, I don't know enough about private nurses to make valid comparisons since I only know nurses working in the public sector.

can you agree though that comparing say a nurse in the public sector with say an accountant in the private sector isn't comparing like for like?

I'd totally agree with your point of view if you were comparing similar or comparable jobs within the public and private sector. In fact, I'd have a lot of the same views on public/private sector pay as you do

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

can you agree though that comparing say a nurse in the public sector with say an accountant in the private sector isn't comparing like for like?

It isn't comparing like for like but comparing across sectors can be very enlightening. Similar to how some of your present pay demands are about parity, you can extend that a bit further out and start looking at how other jobs with similar levels of responsibility/whatever match up. As I said earlier, pay levels aren't, and shouldn't, be set in a vacuum. It's not that I believe that we should have parity between groups, because honestly I don't, it's more that it's interesting to cast pay demands against other groups to give some bit of perspective. Do you know what I mean?

Dr Galen

yep, i do see what your saying alright.

and i'd like to see more of what your saying. I think the results would be very interesting. you mention looking at other jobs, with similar levels of responsibility match up, but not necessarily nursing related. now that would be interesting. difficult but interesting

Dundhoone

Getting in way to late on this debate, but I was looking at the payscales and just wanted to ask about the allowences. Are these tax free? or just added to taxable income?

Would it be fair to say that a majority of nurses would qualify for one or more of these? The "employed for duty in the following locations" one , would that be fairly common?

Whats the "special allowence for weekend and public holidays" about? Is it paid so that you may be rostered to work on these days?

Although the basic salary is decent but not spectacular, looks like there is load of scope for potential earning and also loads of ways to increase earnings and move up the ladder.

Dr Galen

Getting in way to late on this debate, but I was looking at the payscales and just wanted to ask about the allowences. Are these tax free? or just added to taxable income?

they are just added onto your normal pay so you pay tax on them as normal

Would it be fair to say that a majority of nurses would qualify for one or more of these? The "employed for duty in the following locations" one , would that be fairly common?

not really. although there would be a decent enough number of staff that do work in a location that qualifies, i think it would be fair to say that most don't. Like if you end up in hospital with a stomach problem or say a broken leg, those type of nurses generally wouldn't be getting any extra allowances. Its meant for those that work in a particular setting which is deemed that bit harder to work in, e.g A&E or with patients with mental/dementia issues.

Whats the "special allowence for weekend and public holidays" about? Is it paid so that you may be rostered to work on these days?

as i understand it thats just normal puiblic holiday or premium level pay

Although the basic salary is decent but not spectacular, looks like there is load of scope for potential earning and also loads of ways to increase earnings and move up the ladder.

well going by only the pay scales i'd have to agree with you. but there are two main ways to get to the good salaries.

firstly just stay in the service, e.g a nurse who has been working for 20 years will be taking home a bit over 40k. thats not too bad. but then, if that person had a job with such levels of responsibility and pressure, but in a different career, i'd haard a guess that they would be earning quite a bit more than 40k per annum, so i guess its a double edged sword. ask me in 20 years and i'll be able to tell ya more....;)

the other way is to get into management, starting as junior ward manager and work up through the levels. this would be fine if you actually wanted to get into management, and away from the patients and working with them on a firsthand basis, but what if you don't?? not everyone aspires to be pen pusher you know, and on that, there are only a finite number of such positions within a hospital, generally 2 per ward. so its not like there is much scope for moving up in your own area.

if only the DOH/HSE would do something about bringing onstream more advanced practice positions. aloowing nurses to become more specialised in their field, undertake reserach etc etc all while still staying focussed on patients and the bedside as such. then i'd definitely agree, nurses would actually have a decent career pathway, with the earning potential that you speak of.

Dundhoone

Okay , can I ask why a Public health nurse gets paid so much more?

Are these nurses who go to peoples homes and such?

Hmm your argument is interesting. Is it not reasonable to assume that if you do not want to take on the responsibilty of management and a more senior position, that you may not be able to earn similar high salaries?

Wishbone Ash

nurse_baz wrote:

they are just added onto your normal pay so you pay tax on them as normal

Except for travel expenses. AFAIK they are tax free.

nurse baz wrote:

although there would be a decent enough number of staff that do work in a location that qualifies, i think it would be fair to say that most don't. Like if you end up in hospital with a stomach problem or say a broken leg, those type of nurses generally wouldn't be getting any extra allowances. Its meant for those that work in a particular setting which is deemed that bit harder to work in, e.g A&E or with patients with mental/dementia issues.

It's also paid to nurses who work in a locked environment and/or where more than 75% of patients/residents suffer from a severe or profound ID.

nurse baz wrote:

a nurse who has been working for 20 years will be taking home a bit over 40k

Presumably you mean 'grossing' over 40k. 'Take home' usually refers to net pay.

nesf

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Except for travel expenses. AFAIK they are tax free.

Like the rest of us, I imagine that they get to charge fixed rates per mile/per day/whatever.

Dr Galen

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Except for travel expenses. AFAIK they are tax free.

not sure about tht. i'd have to check it out.

It's also paid to nurses who work in a locked environment and/or where more than 75% of patients/residents suffer from a severe or profound ID.

even harder again than the places i mentioned then

Presumably you mean 'grossing' over 40k. 'Take home' usually refers to net pay.

poo off with your word semantics
yes your exactly right though, i did mean grossing, thanks for pointing that out

Dr Galen

nesf wrote:

Like the rest of us, I imagine that they get to charge fixed rates per mile/per day/whatever.

its for the public health type nurses. Like we don't get milage just to get to from work as normal

nesf

nurse_baz wrote:

its for the public health type nurses. Like we don't get milage just to get to from work as normal

I was thinking of how the expenses system works in general in both the public and private sector. If you have to travel in your job you are entitled to charge expenses for it in both.

I was trying to point out that it's nothing unusual for anyone who travels in their job, sorry for being a bit unclear.

Dr Galen

Dundhoone wrote:

Okay , can I ask why a Public health nurse gets paid so much more?

Are these nurses who go to peoples homes and such?

historically public health nurses actually had 3 qualifications.
nursing
midwifery
and then Public health

so thus the higher salary. also, its deemed to have quite a large amount of management in the daily work, as your more or less your own boss, managing your own caseload etc.

Hmm your argument is interesting. Is it not reasonable to assume that if you do not want to take on the responsibilty of management and a more senior position, that you may not be able to earn similar high salaries.

i'd agree that if your say the ward manager you should get paid more, sure thats logical. My argument centres more on the 2 things,

1) i feel nurses don't get enough of a salary for being just nurses.

2) Nursing is one of those careers where you don't just have a management role as a career progression move. you can move up into a position of speciality, following extra qualifications etc.

some people have looked at the salary scales and though, god there's great scope for increasing your earnings going by this. and thats not quite true. if there where enough clinical speality positions, for the people that didn't want to become managers, then your arguments would hold more or less true. but there simply aren't, even though the 19998, Commission on Nursing recommended and promised such jobs.