Boardsies at war!!! PLO 1/2 hand

eoghan104

Ok so me and careca have been at the table nearly and hour and have had a couple of tussles but nothing major then this hand goes down.......

[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Hand Start.
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 1 : stud23 has $168.58
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 2 : careca has $324.25
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 3 : kingowen has $207.27
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 4 : eoghan104 has $245
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 5 : ruru1212 has $146.11
[Feb 6 13:47:58] : Seat 6 : joshwosh has $116.25
[Feb 6 13:47:59] : careca is the dealer.
[Feb 6 13:47:59] : kingowen posted small blind.
[Feb 6 13:48:00] : eoghan104 posted big blind.
[Feb 6 13:48:00] : Game [168576] started with 5 players.
[Feb 6 13:48:00] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Feb 6 13:48:00] : Seat 4 : eoghan104 has Kh Td Qd Qc
[Feb 6 13:48:03] : joshwosh called $2
[Feb 6 13:48:05] : stud23 called $2
[Feb 6 13:48:08] : careca called $2
[Feb 6 13:48:12] : kingowen called $1
[Feb 6 13:48:16] : eoghan104 raised $10
[Feb 6 13:48:18] : joshwosh called $10
[Feb 6 13:48:19] : stud23 folded.
[Feb 6 13:48:20] : careca called $10
[Feb 6 13:48:23] : kingowen folded.
[Feb 6 13:48:23] : Dealing flop.
[Feb 6 13:48:23] : Board cards [7s 2d Ts]
[Feb 6 13:48:30] : eoghan104 bet $40
[Feb 6 13:48:38] : joshwosh folded.
[Feb 6 13:48:43] : careca called $40 and raised $120

Whats my best line here?

Now Im thinking that Careca is raising here with a big draw in position as if he had a set on that board i think he may flat call and he raises preflop with AA or KK.....

Am i right to push here?

Resuts in White below

[Feb 6 13:48:55] : eoghan104 called $120 and raised $73 and is All-in
[Feb 6 13:48:55] : Under-Raise rules are now in effect.
[Feb 6 13:48:58] : careca : doh
[Feb 6 13:49:00] : careca called $73
[Feb 6 13:49:00] : Showdown!
[Feb 6 13:49:00] : Seat 4 : eoghan104 has Kh Td Qd Qc
[Feb 6 13:49:02] : Seat 2 : careca has 8h As Ks 2h
[Feb 6 13:49:02] : Seat 4 : eoghan104 has Kh Td Qd Qc
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : Board cards [7s 2d Ts 7h 4c]
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : Seat 4 : eoghan104 has Kh Td Qd Qc
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : eoghan104 has Two Pair: Queens and 7s
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : Seat 2 : careca has 8h As Ks 2h
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : careca has Two Pair: 7s and 2s
[Feb 6 13:49:08] : eoghan104 wins $503 with Two Pair: Queens and 7s
[Feb 6 13:49:17] : careca : nh
[Feb 6 13:49:18] : Hand is over.

Rnger

I knew id be surprised if i stuck those hands in twodimes

My first impressions of this hand... dont bet so much on the flop and fold to his raise. With 3 people seeing this flop, your 1 pair-waek draw is behind

Lafortezza

It's a tough one since careca prob reraises PF with AAxx or a good KKxx. The board is so drawy that even if you're ahead right now it's still close to a coinflip depending on his draw.

I'd probably fold to the flop reraise, but then again I'd check that flop.

ianmc38

This is a pretty easy fold. You're rarely better than a coinflip and often a huge dog. That said he definitely doesn't have AAxx cos that guy raises and reraises those aces from every single postion

cardshark202

I would fold to the flop re-raise most of the time.

phantom_lord

Rnger wrote:

I knew id be surprised if i stuck those hands in twodimes

what were you expecting to see

jimbling

dont think i would have bet out 40 on the flop. Def fold to re-raise.... lol @ me giving omaha advice.


edit: eoghan, you really have a pretty crap hand here. You can shove if you want, but you only have one pair, and you have no backup draw.

eoghan104

cardshark202 wrote:

I would fold to the flop re-raise most of the time.

Most of the time?

I would also fold MOST of the time but after the tussles we had and on that board i was certain i was up against the flush draw and he was trying to take the pot away in position. He has AA or KK there maybe 2% of the time if even.

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

This is a pretty easy fold. You're rarely better than a coinflip and often a huge dog. That said he definitely doesn't have AAxx cos that guy raises and reraises those aces from every single postion

I dont see how you think you are ahead here. I would nt have bet this flop and would have folded to his rereaise

eoghan104

jimbling wrote:

dont think i would have bet out 40 on the flop. Def fold to re-raise.... lol @ me giving omaha advice.


edit: eoghan, you really have a pretty crap hand here. You can shove if you want, but you only have one pair, and you have no backup draw.

do you think i should Check fold here everytime then? i think thats very weak to be honest am i wrong?

eoghan104

Killme00 wrote:

I dont see how you think you are ahead here. I would nt have bet this flop and would have folded to his rereaise

what hands call my raise preflop that beat me here apart from 1010? maybe a very lucky 2pair. Am i wrong in thinking its incredibly weak to c/f here?

ianmc38

Killme00 wrote:

I dont see how you think you are ahead here. I would nt have bet this flop and would have folded to his rereaise

What you talkin bout Willis? Maybe i dont right so gut nemore

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

do you think i should Check fold here everytime then? i think thats very weak to be honest am i wrong?

Sometimes bet fold, sometimes check fold.

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

What you talkin bout Willis? Maybe i dont right so gut nemore

Im talking about the spades and the wrap...we is behind sucka

Killme00

eoghan104 wrote:

what hands call my raise preflop that beat me here apart from 1010? maybe a very lucky 2pair. Am i wrong in thinking its incredibly weak to c/f here?

lots of hands mate how about 8899 with two spades

or 78910 ds..that aint lucky

rogue trader

eoghan104 wrote:

what hands call my raise preflop that beat me here apart from 1010? maybe a very lucky 2pair. Am i wrong in thinking its incredibly weak to c/f here?

Eoghan, there are tonnes of hands that will call you here.
I think your bet on the flop was good (It will get through most times) but this is a fold when check raised. He either has a set or the nut flush. I would fold here even if i put him on a draw. Your holding does not justify a call.
I think you were very lucky to win the hand.

Bandana boy

Eoghan you get really attached to JJ and QQ in PLO that is not a good thing

If Careca is on tilt or you have beeen over c betting i call it could be a naked flush draw but 90% of the time i fold here
but then i prefer check raise on this flop if Careca has been frisky

I would say Careca was delighted too see your holding when u flipped over

ianmc38

Killme00 wrote:

Im talking about the spades and the wrap...we is behind sucka

Did you actually read what I wrote?

eoghan104

Bandana boy wrote:

Eoghan you get really attached to JJ and QQ in PLO that is not a good thing

If Careca is on tilt or you have beeen over c betting i call it could be a naked flush draw but 90% of the time i fold here
but then i prefer check raise on this flop if Careca has been frisky

I would say Careca was delighted too see your holding when u flipped over

I dont agree with the fact you say i get attached to QQ and JJ after the flop thats just not true.

I also fold this 90% of the time so we are agreeing there. This is one of the 10% of the times i call as im 90% sure im ahead here as careca may reraise me here with air thinking i will fold AA KK QQ........ its a read based call not an autocall by any means.

valor

go with your reads

careca

ok here's my thoughts. in the time we were at the table I had not shown one bluff, everytime I took down a pot it was either uncontested or I had the goods.
When Eoghan bet the flop I was sure he had an overpair, possibly AAxx. Now since I had the As I knew he couldn't be drawing to the nut flush and I thought he was one of the only players at the table who would let that hand go. When he came back over the top I thought top set and I'm in trouble here but obviously I had to call the rest of my stack at that stage. I was very surprised with his holding and a bit shocked to be honest. I thought I made the right play.

One point, I don't think its fair to say Eoghan overplays JJ and QQ in omaha, based on one HH. I thought he had played very solidly up to that hand, and thats probably all the more reason why I tried that move.

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

Did you actually read what I wrote?

i war aggreeing with you..i was quoting you to emphasise your point...sucka

eoghan104

careca wrote:

ok here's my thoughts. in the time we were at the table I had not shown one bluff, everytime I took down a pot it was either uncontested or I had the goods.
When Eoghan bet the flop I was sure he had an overpair, possibly AAxx. Now since I had the As I knew he couldn't be drawing to the nut flush and I thought he was one of the only players at the table who would let that hand go. When he came back over the top I thought top set and I'm in trouble here but obviously I had to call the rest of my stack at that stage. I was very surprised with his holding and a bit shocked to be honest. I thought I made the right play.

One point, I don't think its fair to say Eoghan overplays JJ and QQ in omaha, based on one HH. I thought he had played very solidly up to that hand, and thats probably all the more reason why I tried that move.

these are all fair points and the reason you gave for saying you think id lay it down are the same reasons that made me call. I thought u were well able to make that play and would of folded to anyone else. i knew that you know that i know kind of thing!

In hindsight we should have just stayed away from eachother as the table was weak. Anyway thats the game and im sure well meet agian at that game as game selection on tribecca is limited to say the least!

5starpool

I don't like this hand Eoghan. That is a horrible flop for you, and leading for the pot into 2 opponents isn't a great idea. Lots of hands have you in trouble here such as TTxx, 77xx (very possible 6778 calls preflop), 789T with spades, 89TJ with spades.

The one type of hand you are beating, and not by that much really is AsXsXX. Metagame thinking in Omaha can get you in trouble, especially when Neil could never really fold his hand to your reraise.

Just my 2c.

jimbling

eoghan104 wrote:

what hands call my raise preflop that beat me here apart from 1010? maybe a very lucky 2pair. Am i wrong in thinking its incredibly weak to c/f here?

there's a mass of cards that beat your ass around the room that call your pre flop raise. Even the ones you are ahead of now you will at most be on the positive side of a coinflip.

ianmc38

Killme00 wrote:

i war aggreeing with you..i was quoting you to emphasise your point...sucka

I'll resheath my bush knife so.

jimbling

also eoghan. I am not really sure about the reason for the post. I mean, you are asking if you were right to push. But if your decision is completely read based then it is almost impossible for anyone to agree or disagree with how you played a hand.
If you reword your actual question it might become a bit clearer what you're looking for in regards to responses.

I question your read a bit also. I mean firstly you say you are 90% certain you are ahead. I really can't figure that. Why do you think that careca would call a set?? Has he done this often??
I think the point is, you are hoping (whatever % your read makes out) that you are 50/50 with careca here. But the rest of the % you will be a long long way behind.
Think its a fold even with the read.

Lafortezza

eoghan104 wrote:

what hands call my raise preflop that beat me here apart from 1010? maybe a very lucky 2pair. Am i wrong in thinking its incredibly weak to c/f here?

If you bet the flop and get raised, what is the weakest hand he can legitimately do this with? You're essentially bluffing or coinflipping.

Marq

lafortezza wrote:

You're essentially bluffing or coinflipping.

This is probably the best way to look at it. Even if you are being bluffed your hand is extremely weak. I think your flop play is atrocious. You admit that you bet hoping to get through, but when you didn't you should have given up on the hand.

Goodluck2me

Marq wrote:

This is probably the best way to look at it. Even if you are being bluffed your hand is extremely weak. I think your flop play is atrocious. You admit that you bet hoping to get through, but when you didn't you should have given up on the hand.

i see you have moved down levels recently.

RoundTower

eoghan104 wrote:

I dont agree with the fact you say i get attached to QQ and JJ after the flop thats just not true.

I also fold this 90% of the time so we are agreeing there. This is one of the 10% of the times i call as im 90% sure im ahead here as careca may reraise me here with air thinking i will fold AA KK QQ........ its a read based call not an autocall by any means.

OK so this is what we call a NickyOD hand, you knew the normal and obvious play but you had some unlikely read which meant you thought you should get it in. Then it turned out you weren't drawing dead this time so you posted the hand (without including the read which is vital) and now you get to tell us how you made the correct play and everyone's advice is wrong.

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote:

OK so this is what we call a NickyOD hand, you knew the normal and obvious play but you had some unlikely read which meant you thought you should get it in. Then it turned out you weren't drawing dead this time so you posted the hand (without including the read which is vital) and now you get to tell us how you made the correct play and everyone's advice is wrong.

this seems to happen quite often on here. if you had lost the hand/been behind it wouldnt have been posted imo. also nice2meet u dave.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

a-k-47

out with the pitchforks

mewso

eoghan104 wrote:

i knew that you know that i know kind of thing!

I agree completely with Dave here. This is where I believe players delude themselves far too often imo. Even players I consider the best around often talk about hands where they read someone perfectly and never the times they got it wrong. Perhaps it helps confidence even if it's not strictly true.

cardshark202

RoundTower wrote:

OK so this is what we call a NickyOD hand, you knew the normal and obvious play but you had some unlikely read which meant you thought you should get it in. Then it turned out you weren't drawing dead this time so you posted the hand (without including the read which is vital) and now you get to tell us how you made the correct play and everyone's advice is wrong.

QFT.

eoghan104

RoundTower wrote:

OK so this is what we call a NickyOD hand, you knew the normal and obvious play but you had some unlikely read which meant you thought you should get it in. Then it turned out you weren't drawing dead this time so you posted the hand (without including the read which is vital) and now you get to tell us how you made the correct play and everyone's advice is wrong.

Ok, I disagree here. The reason i posted the hand is that i tought it was interesting and when at the table me and careca discussed posting it and i said i would.

This is not a brag post and that is not what im about. The last HH i posted i lost a huge pot playing a draw and posted it up asking for advice.

I never said that i thought everyone was wrong and i was right. I know now I played the hand poorly and it was a mistake and that is what i posted up the hand to find out? Is this not allowed.

I know you wont respond to this as you just pop into threads and make some comment and then dont say anything else when challenged. You have no reason to say what you said about my post and its for things like this that people that are knew to poker are afraid to post stuff at the risk of being ridiculed. This is not the case for me as i dont really give a siht if you and your little cronies (you know who u are) dont like it.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eoghan104

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Eoghan, this was the 8th post in the thread after a couple of strong omaha players had described the situation posted as an easy fold to the flop re - raise. You have posted a hand that you played due to your perceived opinion of how Careca was playing in the session. This information does not appear in the original post, and is reducing the villian's handrange so specifically as to render a strategic discussion irrelevant.

Lloyd, did you read my OP? I stated clearly that i think careca is on a draw and that he would have raised AA or KK preflop!!!!! I agree with what your aying about putting all the info in the OP and that is what i did therefore i dont understand your argument?

Can you clarify what i did in this tread to warrant you posting that you agree with what RT said about this being another "nicky O'D thread" where im disagreeing with everyone and saying that i am right? Not once did i do this.

I think your wrong here Lloyd in relation to this thread and the arguments you put forth.

5starpool

Eoghan, I think what everyone is saying here is that there are way too many hands that have you in bad shape here apart from AAxx and KKxx for this hand to have been played correctly by you in general, whatever your 'read' from an online hand.

You said you hadn't apart from a couple of tussles done anything major against Careca up to this point. Just because of a couple of hands and the knowledge that he may be able to pull this stunt, I don't think you are ever ahead here often enough to justify this. Even if he has one pair, a flush draw and an inside straight draw he is favourite against your holding.

More often than not you will be crippled here, so this hand is not an example of good play unless you know a particular player bets his lone draws hard and slow plays sets.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eoghan104

The post you quoted is me arguing the case " am i right to go with this read". I understand it may look like im disagreeing with someone but i asure you i am not. i would not post a HH and then tell everyone who disagrees that i am right, that is pointless.

Thats why Im pissed of with RT's tone in his post and even more so with the people who just jump on the bandwagon agreeing with him and then not defend their argument when questioned.

You came on here and replied to me when i questioned your post and that is what should happen so fair play.

eoghan104

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nice post Dom. Well put - the voice of reason as usual.

.

careca

I just want to add that it was my idea (if I remember correctly) to post the hand on boards. I was sure Eoghan's play was the wrong play and maybe I wanted assurance of that and see what others thought.

eoghan104

careca wrote:

I just want to add that it was my idea (if I remember correctly) to post the hand on boards. I was sure Eoghan's play was the wrong play and maybe I wanted assurance of that and see what others thought.

Yeh it was your idea and it turns out you were right!!!!

TrueDub

I think that this thread actually serves a good purpose, even with the subsequent disagreements, as it helps people enforce their instincts.

What I mean is this: I read the HH (I rarely read the HH threads, although I'm starting to more now) and before checking the outcome, or any of the replies, I decide what I'd do on each decision point, and why.

The subsequent replies and outcome then allow me to check what others would do, and why, improving my knowledge and reasoning about the game.

The subsequent argument about reads etc. is relevant, but leaving this aside there's still a lot to be gained from this type of thread.

mewso

Not sure if I qualify to be a cronie or not but I will justify my response. I was directly referring to your claim that you thought careca was capable of making a move on a draw despite the fact he had been quiet up to then. I think it's a pit that many players, players far superior to me included, fall into whereby the great read lodges in the brain and the times that read was 2 miles down the road does not. The key to me in this hand is not if careca is capable of making this move it's how often he might be making said move for it to be +EV.
I said this to be constructive and I think I was adressing the thread in general as opposed to trying to bask in the sun coming out of RT's arse.

RoundTower

OK my mistake, you did put some read info in the OP but it's still ridiculous

eoghan104 wrote:

Now Im thinking that Careca is raising here with a big draw in position as if he had a set on that board i think he may flat call and he raises preflop with AA or KK

Nobody plays like this, this is just silly. More likely he calls with a draw and raises with a set. Not to mention all the pair+draw hands that have you crushed.

ianmc38

Only an idiot would flat call with a set on that board.

From my limited experience with Careca on Tribeca I would say his line falls right in line with how he plays a big draw (wrap + FD, FD+pair+overs) or a set. It's never AAxx or KKxx as he always reraises them preflop from every position (too much IMO as i rarely see him raise any other hands from the blinds).

eoghan104

RoundTower wrote:

OK my mistake, you did put some read info in the OP but it's still ridiculous



Nobody plays like this, this is just silly. More likely he calls with a draw and raises with a set. Not to mention all the pair+draw hands that have you crushed.

Ok this is fair enough to point out and i was wrong in the way i played the hand.

Why didnt you give this analysis in the first place instead of jumping in feet first saying that "i only posted because i won" and " i disagreed with everyone saying i was right and they were wrong" when none of it was true?