Scientology

rockbeer

I would like to nominate Wicknight for post of the day.

Sincere thanks for the dog story, which is far and away the best and most lucid contribution I've seen in a long while.

pinksoir

Hear, hear.

rockbeer

Edit: Double post. Apologies.

joe_chicken

Wicknight wrote:

This is about choice and the ownership of our own choices.

That's exactly my point too.

Whether you like it or not your parents mould you into who you are.
What schools they send you to, what food they make you eat, what time you go to bed, who you hang around with...

All these choices directly effect who you are and what choices you make.

Given that, why shouldn't they actively teach you what they believe?

p.s. Agree about the story, she sounds like she was a very intelligent and caring grandmother

5uspect

joe_chicken wrote:

That's exactly my point too.

Whether you like it or not your parents mould you into who you are.
What schools they send you to, what food they make you eat, what time you go to bed, who you hang around with...

All these choices directly effect who you are and what choices you make.

Given that, why shouldn't they actively teach you what they believe?

p.s. Agree about the story, she sounds like she was a very intelligent and caring grandmother

Your parents don't have total control over these things.
They can't possibly know the many influences you go through in school for example, the opinions of different teachers and other students.

The distinction is that parents should realise that their beliefs are nothing more than beliefs and should give the child the benefit of the doubt by giving them as many choices as possible. That way the child is better able to make an informed decision.

Why only give your children chicken when you only like chicken?

BrianCalgary

rockbeer wrote:

Taken out of context yet again... sigh.

What exactly is 'untrue' in "some people believe her sister is in a magical place called heaven, ... some believe she is rotting in the ground, and ... while you subscribe to the former the objective evidence overwhelmingly supports the latter."

Is there anything there you actually take exception to? Or are you just being a smartass?

Don't take exception to anything. You just stated that you would advocate telling the truth to a child.

I find it amazing that YOU have the truth. Whereas PDN doesn't? Nor the scientologists, Mormons, JW's. RC Church, etc, etc.

Where did you find this truth? And why should the rest of us believe that you have it?

rockbeer

Brian, are you being deliberately obtuse? It seems as though you are wilfully misunderstanding me.

Of course I don't lay claim to the whole truth. Who does? At least who that is sane does? I was referring specifically to that particular statement in that particular context. If you don't take exception to anything in it then you will agree with me that it is indeed, for that purpose, "the truth".

Zombrex

joe_chicken wrote:

Given that, why shouldn't they actively teach you what they believe?

No reason except that it isn't a good idea.

Look at PDN story about the drug addicts who were bitter about not knowing "Jesus loved them" from an early stage.

Look at the atheists Dawkins talked to who were angry they had been raised as Christians.

It is simply not a good idea to teach children that a particular religion or religious outlook is correct over any other. It is not fair on the children.

There has been a lot of talk about the rights of parents to do this or that with their children, but can you actually tell me why it is a good idea to do this?

BrianCalgary

rockbeer wrote:

Brian, are you being deliberately obtuse?".

Yeah , probably.

rockbeer wrote:

It seems as though you are wilfully misunderstanding me.".

Not wilfully. I justfelt that you criticized PDN for his view on telling about Heven and Hell. Yet you make the claim that you would be better off in telling thechild the 'truth'.

The question is simple, where do you get that truth?

rockbeer wrote:

Of course I don't lay claim to the whole truth. Who does? At least who that is sane does?".

Christ laid claim to the truth. As have a few wing nuts through the ages.

rockbeer wrote:

I was referring specifically to that particular statement in that particular context. If you don't take exception to anything in it then you will agree with me that it is indeed, for that purpose, "the truth".

No I don't agree that what you want to tell the 6 year old is truth. How do you derive that what you are telling the child is indeed the truth?

rockbeer

BrianCalgary wrote:

No I don't agree that what you want to tell the 6 year old is truth.

So then, please tell me to what you take exception? (This is getting very long winded... how many times do I have to ask?)

BrianCalgary wrote:

How do you derive that what you are telling the child is indeed the truth?

Then allow me to rephrase:

I advocate offering the child as balanced and honest an answer as possible given the available information, subject to the usual disclaimers that no one has a monopoly on the absolute truth, which I would also attempt to explain to the child.

PDN advocates lying to the child by omission, and presenting his unsubstantiated belief as incontrovertible fact.

Happier now?

Edited for typos.

BrianCalgary

rockbeer wrote:

So then, please tell me to what you take exception? (This is getting very long winded... how many times do I have to ask?).

I don't take exception to anything.

I'm just curious as to the basis in which you lay claim to what is and isn't truth?


A simple question.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm just curious as to the basis in which you lay claim to what is and isn't truth?

You don't think the statement that the majority of people in the world don't hold to PDN's religion is true?

rockbeer

BrianCalgary wrote:

I don't take exception to anything.

Yet you say you don't agree with the truth of my statement? So which is it?

A simple question

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm just curious as to the basis in which you lay claim to what is and isn't truth?

A simple question.

Anything but, obviously...

I don't know if you have young children, but I hope you don't talk to them this way

I also wish you'd come out and say whatever it is you're really wanting to say, as I'm not really interested in playing these semantic games.

I've rephrased the question. If you don't like it, tell me why. And if you want to employ contorted logical conceits to demonstrate that I can't ultimately know the truth of anything then I'll be the first to agree with you. I'm just trying my best, but as far as I know we could all be about to be some giant space-dog's dinner.

BrianCalgary

rockbeer wrote:

Yet you say you don't agree with the truth of my statement? So which is it?

A simple question .

Whether or not I agree with the statement is irrelevant. My question is how is it that you determine that what it is you are telling the 6 year old is truth?

rockbeer wrote:

Anything but, obviously...

I don't know if you have young children, but I hope you don't talk to them this way

I also wish you'd come out and say whatever it is you're really wanting to say, as I'm not really interested in playing these semantic games.

I've rephrased the question. If you don't like it, tell me why. And if you want to employ contorted logical conceits to demonstrate that I can't ultimately know the truth of anything then I'll be the first to agree with you. I'm just trying my best, but as far as I know we could all be about to be some giant space-dog's dinner.

I have three great kids. All teenagers, one about to head out to University in September, I miss her already.

All three have been baptised by their own choice. All three know Jesus as their Lord and saviour. My son who is 14 has an unbelievable faith and trust in God. He is about to go for open heart surgery and is facing it with very little fear, as he knows that God is in complete control of the operation and his life.

No contorted logical conceits, just a genuine interest as to where you get your understanding of what happens after death? with respect to your response to a 6 year old?

rockbeer

BrianCalgary wrote:

Whether or not I agree with the statement is irrelevant. My question is how is it that you determine that what it is you are telling the 6 year old is truth?

I have acknowledged that I can't be certain it is the truth. I have also rephrased my response to try to be more specific about what I mean.

All of my statements can be supported by empirical evidence: that some people do and some people do not believe in heaven, that PDN does (he said so himself), and that the objective evidence tends not to support the idea of heaven.

I can accept the truth the first two contentions to my satisfaction because I don't believe in heaven and PDN does, therefore at least one person doesn't and at least one does. OK so far?

I am satisfied that the third contention is true, because PDN tells me he believes in heaven and I take him at his word. Alright with that?

The fourth contention is a little more tricky, but again I'm satisfied having engaged in long discussion with supporters of the idea of heaven, that none of them has so far been able to provide me with any objective support for their belief. Meanwhile, no scientific investigation or research has even hinted at the existence of any afterlife as described by the christian faith. And I have no personal experience or insight which leads me to infer the existence of such a place from what I perceive around me.

However, I wouldn't dream of telling a child that heaven definitely doesn't exist, because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. You can't prove a negative anyway, so I'm left with the balance of probabilities.

If you can provide objective evidence of the existence of heaven I'd be more than happy to hear and consider it, as I'm sure would more than a few other people around here.

I hope that in some way answers your question.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I have three great kids. All teenagers, one about to head out to University in September, I miss her already.

All three have been baptised by their own choice. All three know Jesus as their Lord and saviour. My son who is 14 has an unbelievable faith and trust in God. He is about to go for open heart surgery and is facing it with very little fear, as he knows that God is in complete control of the operation and his life.

I'm very sorry to hear he has to face such a traumatic operation and obviously glad that he approaches it in good heart and relatively little fear, whatever the reasons for that.

I would also like to say that I know, from personal experience, that no belief in the christian god, or any other for that matter, is necessary in order to achieve a similar state of positive acceptance of what life might bring.

BrianCalgary wrote:

No contorted logical conceits, just a genuine interest as to where you get your understanding of what happens after death? with respect to your response to a 6 year old?

Fair enough, I'll take you at your word - although you'll understand my reluctance to accept that your question is being asked in a genuine spirit of enquiry, given your deliberate obtuseness and the hostile tone of your initial response to my statement.

Turkilton

So anyway, Scientology, it's great, isn't it

BrianCalgary

rockbeer wrote:

I have acknowledged that I can't be certain it is the truth. I have also rephrased my response to try to be more specific about what I mean.

All of my statements can be supported by empirical evidence: that some people do and some people do not believe in heaven, that PDN does (he said so himself), and that the objective evidence tends not to support the idea of heaven.

I can accept the truth the first two contentions to my satisfaction because I don't believe in heaven and PDN does, therefore at least one person doesn't and at least one does. OK so far?

I am satisfied that the third contention is true, because PDN tells me he believes in heaven and I take him at his word. Alright with that?

The fourth contention is a little more tricky, but again I'm satisfied having engaged in long discussion with supporters of the idea of heaven, that none of them has so far been able to provide me with any objective support for their belief. Meanwhile, no scientific investigation or research has even hinted at the existence of any afterlife as described by the christian faith. And I have no personal experience or insight which leads me to infer the existence of such a place from what I perceive around me.

However, I wouldn't dream of telling a child that heaven definitely doesn't exist, because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. You can't prove a negative anyway, so I'm left with the balance of probabilities.

If you can provide objective evidence of the existence of heaven I'd be more than happy to hear and consider it, as I'm sure would more than a few other people around here.

I hope that in some way answers your question.



I'm very sorry to hear he has to face such a traumatic operation and obviously glad that he approaches it in good heart and relatively little fear, whatever the reasons for that.

I would also like to say that I know, from personal experience, that no belief in the christian god, or any other for that matter, is necessary in order to achieve a similar state of positive acceptance of what life might bring.



Fair enough, I'll take you at your word - although you'll understand my reluctance to accept that your question is being asked in a genuine spirit of enquiry, given your deliberate obtuseness and the hostile tone of your initial response to my statement.

I apologize for my tone. One of the problems with the boards, is sometimes we come across as we don't intend.

My question is in the spirit of inquiry and your answer above is well put and answers what I have asked.

I look forward to future exchanges.

aidan24326

BrianCalgary, good luck to your son with his operation. Hope it goes well. I'd just like to ask you this though.

If something went wrong and your son was to die, would you be really angry with god? Really pissed that he took your son from you? Or would you accept it as god's will? Would your unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ lead you to an acceptance that this what god chose for you and your family?

Sorry for even mentioning that dreaded scenario I'm sure it won't happen, just wondering how you might reconcile that.

aidan24326

Anyway, wasn't this thread supposed to be about scientology? Threads in the A/A forum do tend to wander down some windy roads!

PDN

Turkilton wrote:

So anyway, Scientology, it's great, isn't it

Zombrex

Turkilton wrote:

So anyway, Scientology, it's great, isn't it

Tom Cruise seems to think so

Asiaprod

BrianCalgary wrote:

My son who is 14 has an unbelievable faith and trust in God. He is about to go for open heart surgery and is facing it with very little fear, as he knows that God is in complete control of the operation and his life.

Very sorry to hear this Brian, you and your son will be in my thoughts.

rockbeer

BrianCalgary wrote:

I apologize for my tone. One of the problems with the boards, is sometimes we come across as we don't intend.

My question is in the spirit of inquiry and your answer above is well put and answers what I have asked.

I look forward to future exchanges.

Likewise. Thank you for your gracious apology. I wish your son the very best possible outcome after his surgery.

BrianCalgary

aidan24326 wrote:

BrianCalgary, good luck to your son with his operation. Hope it goes well. I'd just like to ask you this though.

If something went wrong and your son was to die, would you be really angry with god? Really pissed that he took your son from you? Or would you accept it as god's will? Would your unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ lead you to an acceptance that this what god chose for you and your family?

Sorry for even mentioning that dreaded scenario I'm sure it won't happen, just wondering how you might reconcile that.

No worries on bringing it up. I have thought of it quite a bit.

I don't think I'd be mad at God. More of a why take him now so soon?

Yet I would trust in His wisdom and look forward to the day when my son can give me the tour of Heaven.

Emotional pain, no question, a certain joy, in a weird way.

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yet I would trust in His wisdom and look forward to the day when my son can give me the tour of Heaven.

Well we're rooting for him here so that maybe you can give him the tour that day, as it should be.

doonothing

Tim Robbins wrote:

I was eating some chips in Supermacs last Wed and saw them outside recruiting. Everybody was walking by them. Then when I was finished my chips I was unlocking my bike outside they managed to get a young man on his own, looked like he wasn't in Ireland long. I felt compelled to do something. I went over and I said "Excuse me, is that Scientology", he said it was. I then pointed out to the young man it wasn't just a personality test it was personality test by Scientology for Scientology. The Scientologist got really irate. He called me prejudiced, a biggot, I didn't know anything about scientology, why should I be against something I don't even know.
He went on to say, Scientology helps drug addicts, helps people with their marriages, why did I have a problem with helping people?

I challenged him as to why I was a biggot.
He said, I had a problem with scientology.
I asked him to point out when I said that?
He said I went out of my way to stop the young man coming in. I said I pointed it wasn't just a personality test it was scientology. I asked him, was there anything factually incorrect with that point. He said there wasn't.
I asked him had I said anything that was factually inaccurate.
He said I hadn't. Then I asked him to point out anything that I had said which he had admitted was factually accurate, which was biggoted.
He couldn't.
I then asked him why he was withholding the fact it was scientology and not just a personality test? He couldn't answer. I asked has him why he had a problem with me pointing out it was scientology i.e. has he got a problem with scientology then?

He admitted I had said nothing biggoted, prejudiced, but that he didn't like me tone. He emphasied "tone". The next day I look up scientology on wikipedia and found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Tone_scale
hillarious

ahahahahahaha!!! that is fantastic.

BrianCalgary

The Atheist wrote:

Well we're rooting for him here so that maybe you can give him the tour that day, as it should be.

Amen Atheist thanks.

One thing about being here, we may disagree vehemently on many things, yet there is a caring family about, and for that I am truly grateful.