school fees

thebaz

i see my old school , gonzaga, is abolishing fees , i think its a good thing as i found it elitist when i went -- should fees be abolished for all secondary schools, similar to 3rd level !
I think it would be a good move , equal education, and allow people to learn with people from all different backgrounds .

monkeyfudge

Gonzaga? Did he fight Mothra at some stage?

griffdaddy

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free. My old school, Belvedere, has been doing it for years, and it makes the place all the better for it. Fair play to Gonzaga and recently Clongowes for adopting this initiative, if only some of the non-Jesuit schools adopted it, we might see a meaningful decline in the elitist stereotypes and disproportionate entry levels to 3rd level institutions.

Futureman

monkeyfudge wrote:

Gonzaga? Did he fight Mothra at some stage?

Yes - it was known as the Battle of Zelotron, and took place on the eve of Kelzox's triumph over the fastidian gork, who tried to slay the cottiers of Azelloroth!

InFront

As griffdaddy said they aren't abolishing fees at all. And yeah ideally more schools should do it.
They are still keeping it southside though, no Northerners need apply!

Terry

What about the Westies?

Sangre

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Pet

Sangre wrote:

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Or, remembering that this is Ireland, the public schools would just be even more underfunded.

A scholarship system like this makes the most sense.

nesf

thebaz wrote:

I think it would be a good move , equal education, and allow people to learn with people from all different backgrounds .

Is there something wrong with public schools all of a sudden?

griffdaddy

nesf wrote:

Is there something wrong with public schools all of a sudden?

no, but the intake of fees allows them to invest in an infrastructure that makes education much easier and makes the school a better place to learn for those who want to. For instance, my former school had a muti-million euro theatre, a brand new science and technologhy block that would put a lot of colleges to shame, a rooftop running track, and a roof top 5 a side pitch. With the vast majority of scholarship students coming from the north inner city, working class north Dublin as well as a far a field as Tallaght, it provides an opportunity for them that most public schools probably couldnt afford to provide. It's also good for students who are paying fees. That, coupled with the (in my opinion unfair) fact that private schools seem to cherry pick the best teachers gives them an advantage. Having said that, facilities dont necessarily make a great leaving-cert, and that anyone who's going to do well purely academically will probably do it anywhere. In fact, my nearest public school, Colaiste Eanna in Rathfarnham (where all my friends went) is probably one of the finest schools in the coutry, and that's represented in their 3rd level rate and huge sporting achievements.

nesf

griffdaddy wrote:

no, but the intake of fees allows them to invest in an infrastructure that makes education much easier and makes the school a better place to learn for those who want to. For instance, my former school had a muti-million euro theatre, a brand new science and technologhy block that would put a lot of colleges to shame, a rooftop running track, and a roof top 5 a side pitch. With the vast majority of scholarship students coming from the north inner city, working class north Dublin as well as a far a field as Tallaght, it provides an opportunity for them that most public schools probably couldnt afford to provide. It's also good for students who are paying fees. That, coupled with the (in my opinion unfair) fact that private schools seem to cherry pick the best teachers gives them an advantage. Having said that, facilities dont necessarily make a great leaving-cert, and that anyone who's going to do well purely academically will probably do it anywhere. In fact, my nearest public school, Colaiste Eanna in Rathfarnham (where all my friends went) is probably one of the finest schools in the coutry, and that's represented in their 3rd level rate and huge sporting achievements.

Don't get me wrong, I think that scholarships are a good thing. I just don't get this "abolish private schools" attitude that some people have. A school not having fees doesn't automatically make it a good school, and someone's parents paying fees for a child isn't going to automatically make them any smarter either.

Your point about the people who do well purely academically that you make has been backed up by studies (I can think of one done in the US and one in Britian off-hand). Plus, you don't have to have sports facilities at your school in order to do well at sport. There's nothing stopping someone going off and doing on weekends with GAA/whatever.

kevmy

On principal I would be against sending any of my children to a private school for the following reasons.

1) I went to a public school and got a really good education. It's down to the kid if they want to learn they will.
2) If everybody with money went to a private school it would leave a massive imbalance in the system (a la the US). Unfortunately it's a fact that the less well off kids are more troublesome and do not perform as well academically. It could lead to "ghettoisation" of the school system.
3) If I'm paying taxes then I'm already paying for my kids education so why pay a second time?
4) It's my belief the kids will get a better all-round education in a public school. These schools often just grind it into kids and do not give them a chance to learn the subject just the answers. I've seen kids from fee-paying schools who haven't done experiments in science subjects just learned them. They then struggle massively in college. League tables take into account the numbers getting into college but thats it. A massive flaw, they don't take into account how the school leavers perform at or that some people are not cut out for college. We need carpenters and plumbers etc. and a non-fee paying school will set your kid up much better for this.

So I couldn't really care less if some snobby school in Dublin is letting the riff-raff in. We should have more money for our public schools and people should cop on and look past the elitism and CAO points when deciding on where to send they're children.

thebaz

griffdaddy wrote:

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free. My old school, Belvedere, has been doing it for years, and it makes the place all the better for it. Fair play to Gonzaga and recently Clongowes for adopting this initiative, if only some of the non-Jesuit schools adopted it, we might see a meaningful decline in the elitist stereotypes and disproportionate entry levels to 3rd level institutions.

Woops - your right , i thought they were completly abolishing fees , as i thought they already had a scholarship system in place -- ,maybe they are only making this official. Anyway i agree with you it can only be a good thing all round , i always found it weird that they preached equality, and help the less fortunate within a Christian ethos, and then only educated the children of the wealthy ! Same could apply to Blackrock, Clongowes and other catholic institutions

REDZ

Sangre wrote:

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Private schools get the same level of funding per pupil as public ones

Sangre

You could be right but my point was one made by the Minister of Education. The cost wouldn't come from the teachers but from paying for the land, buildings, sports equipment, computers etc as they are all private property. Its not really a point of debate. Private schools save the taxer payer money.

bluto63

griffdaddy wrote:

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free.

Sorry, but those kids are gonna get abused endlessly. It's the sad truth.

griffdaddy

bluto63 wrote:

Sorry, but those kids are gonna get abused endlessly. It's the sad truth.

eh what are you talking about? they're treated exactly the same as everyone else, the school captain (as voted by the students of 6th year and staff) in my year was a scholarship student from East Wall. Nobody cares where they're from, we dont stand around in the yard in private schools discussing each other's father's businesses, contrary to popular believe.

Sangre

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

griffdaddy

well you can tell pretty quickly when you find out where they're from, it's not like a taboo to talk to them about it anyway, not most of them anyway

Sangre

Sangre wrote:

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

Same here.

Plug

I tell them im having finanical difficulties, free mocks for me whoo hooo:D

Rovi

Sangre wrote:

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

I'll also concur with this, and this was back in the 1970s. (:()

There were scholarship students there all right, but no-one knew who they were, possibly not even themselves in some cases.
I had fellow students from all over the country, including inner-city Dublin, and the subject of who was or wasn't on a scholarship or whose parents were in what income bracket never came up.

jimi_t

kevmy wrote:

3) If I'm paying taxes then I'm already paying for my kids education so why pay a second time?

Wel, paying private school fees, by proxy, ensures that more money is available to public schools. Contrary to the opinion expressed here earlier, only the fees of the teachers are paid by the Department of Education (this ensures that the best teachers aren't "poached" from public schools for better wages) whereas the upkeep, heating etc... of private schools is paid for by the fees received. In much the same argument as people are making earlier, why should the offspring of the wealthy be putting an unnecessary strain on the system?

4) It's my belief the kids will get a better all-round education in a public school. These schools often just grind it into kids and do not give them a chance to learn the subject just the answers. I've seen kids from fee-paying schools who haven't done experiments in science subjects just learned them. They then struggle massively in college.

I've seen the exact same from pupils of public schools - this is not a problem that can be attributed wholly or even for the most part to private schools. If you're going to blame anything, blame the exam system which encourages and nurtures and environment where privilege can be bought by way of grinds and grindschools - and make sure you understand the difference between a private school and somewhere like the Institute.

League tables take into account the numbers getting into college but thats it. A massive flaw, they don't take into account how the school leavers perform at or that some people are not cut out for college.

Fair enough, but this is not the direct product of private or public schools "grinding" their students. Adults in the eyes of the law and with a lot of students living away from home for the first time ever, the first year of college is a sink or swim time for many. It would be wrong to make any assumptions otherwise.

We need carpenters and plumbers etc. and a non-fee paying school will set your kid up much better for this.

So I couldn't really care less if some snobby school in Dublin is letting the riff-raff in.

Well why have you posted a rant on Irelands biggest public forum?

We should have more money for our public schools and people should cop on and look past the elitism and CAO points when deciding on where to send they're children.

Certainly more money for public schools is necessary, and the whole elitism of certain schools makes me sick but if your child wants to go on to third level education and wants the best possible chance then CAO points are the be all and end all.

swingking

I hate this absolute bull sh1t

I've heard:
"My school is better than your school, because we pay"
or
"We have a better rugby team than you do so our school is better"

The fact we have private schools in the first place, allows kids to immediatly attach this snobbish rubbish.

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

aidan_walsh

The fact we have private schools in the first place, allows kids to immediatly attach this snobbish rubbish.

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

By the looks of it, snobbery has nothing to do with the schools...

Nehpets

aidan_walsh wrote:

By the looks of it, snobbery has nothing to do with the schools...

I go to a public school.. and it sucks. But I don't really mind. I don't need 4 stories, a 5000m running track etc.

Terry

Is there actually a school called "Gonzaga", or is that a nickname or something?
WTF does it mean if there is one?

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

nesf

swingking wrote:

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

What is this real world you speak of? Is it the one inhabited by begrudgers or the one inhabited by people with chips on both shoulders who enjoy making inane generalisations?

nesf

julep wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

You had a prefab? Ya posh jackeen..

thebaz

julep wrote:

Is there actually a school called "Gonzaga", or is that a nickname or something?
WTF does it mean if there is one?

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

Jesuits like to give funny names to there schools like Gonzaga, Bevedere ..
Gonzaga was a founding jesuit , it i remember rightly -- getting back to the point i think opening up the school is a good thing, that will make it less elitist and stuffy .. For example it intoduced me to rugby which i loved , but couldn't understand why we couldn't have a football team as well !

Terry

nesf wrote:

You had a prefab? Ya posh jackeen..

Who are you calling "Jackeen"?
I'm from Kildare.
Actually, we had 8 prefabs and they were all joined together. So there!