Muslim immigration in to Europe

vesp

If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?

Nevyn

I don't know I doubt anyone who posts here know either tough some may speculate.
Tell you what why don't you go ask them all and get back to us with the answer.

vesp

On another thread in humanities another poster said a spokesperson for the Muslim centre in Clonskeagh said that every country with a muslim majority should have Sharia law. Quote from that post ( its of page one of the thread titled Dunday Independent article ":
"The PR woman from the Clonskeagh mosque said that sharia law should apply where there is a muslim majority. Such thoughts are beyond the pale of civilisation. The Channel 4 survey of last week found extraordinary levels of support for 9/11 and the London attacks among ordinary muslims. Apart from views on terrorism, it is now apparent that Muslims no longer integrate in the west as did the previous generations. Many of their attitudes resemble Catholicism in the 50s: the position of women ("equal but differen"!!) homosexuality, time off to pray etc. All this must be defeated by the open society. This nonsense about respect for religion and not insulting the prophet is just trying to re-introduce blasphemy laws. Like Christians who hold such values, Muslims should be told where to get off!"

Infront says simply and only that " Life in the middle east is crap" ! Now, why would that be ? How much crapper would it be if they did not have the revenue from oil ? Or shipping / trade between Europe and Asia ? Or tourism from richer countries ?

Wibbs

vesp wrote:

If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?

Maybe some of the latter are trying to get away from some of the former.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

vesp wrote:

If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?

an awful lot more do like 'our' way of life.
i feel you painting the whole Muslim community with the same brush.
much the same way every Irish person in the UK during the height of the troubles was a suspected member of the IRA.
we of all people should know better.

Hobbes

vesp wrote:

spokesperson for the Muslim centre in Clonskeagh said that every country with a muslim majority should have Sharia law.

Should or would? Two different things.

Such thoughts are beyond the pale of civilisation.

Are you saying that the majority of a country should never be allowed to enact on that majority?

The Channel 4 survey of last week found extraordinary levels of support for 9/11 and the London attacks among ordinary muslims.

Link please.

it is now apparent that Muslims no longer integrate in the west as did the previous generations.

It is not apparent at all unless you back up accusations with some facts. There is already a thread on this on the Islam forum and the survey done in Ireland showed that Muslims were integrating quite well.

Also define integration? You seem to be imply that these muslims are magically appearing from other countries. There are Muslims that have lived in Europe for generations. Are you saying these people are not integrating?

Belle Ende

vesp wrote:

If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?

Disapproving of a secular Western country's 'decadent lifestyle' does NOT necessarily prevent someone from moving to there and self-protecting themselves from said 'immoral' ways.

It's quite easy to live in say, Ireland, without being 'forced' to associate with ne'er-do-wells or to go on weekend p1ss-ups, while at the same time benefitting from the country's many protections and freedoms.

Western states are very attractive places to come and live by one's own culture, given their relative lack of persecution compared with certain oppressive '2nd' and '3rd'-world states.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?

Would that not imply that most don't actually mind our "western ways of life"?

Or was that your point...

Bottle_of_Smoke

vesp wrote:

The Channel 4 survey of last week found extraordinary levels of support for 9/11 and the London attacks among ordinary muslims.

Why is this such a big deal? I'm sure there's higher levels of support for the war in Iraq among Christians & thats a much bigger event than 9/11.

Have you never heard of "ordinary" Catholics having similar levels of "support" for the IRA?

When you have something in common(in these cases religion) you empathise without thinking about what you're "supporting". Muslims are no different.

Also important to note there are liars, damned liars...and statisticians.

Infront says simply and only that " Life in the middle east is crap" ! Now, why would that be ? How much crapper would it be if they did not have the revenue from oil ? Or shipping / trade between Europe and Asia ? Or tourism from richer countries ?

Please explain the point/combination of points mixed together you're making here.

"The PR woman from the Clonskeagh mosque said that sharia law should apply where there is a muslim majority.

I don't think the running of a country should depend on the majority faith. I would however agree that if the majority of people want Sharia law then democracy should prevail.

You must remember that the leaders & spokespeople of any religion generally don't speak for the people of that religion. I've never ever heard a Muslim going on about how he or she is really sick of the Irish non-Sharia system.

When I was growing up in school as a Catholic we only over spoke about priests when we were slagging them off. I suspect it's much the same with Muslims.

Stop being such a bigot.

vesp

"If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, why have so many millions of muslims migrated to the UK, France, Germany etc in recent decades ?"

Wibbs wrote:

Maybe some of the latter are trying to get away from some of the former.

Why do people who do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, come here at all so ?

I am not saying all muslims are like that, but some clearly are. Every second day almost some terrorist plot is foiled in the UK.... there was mention of another one on the news today. According to all the surveys there, 16% of muslims there support terrorism.

InFront

vesp wrote:

Every second day almost some terrorist plot is foiled in the UK.... there was mention of another one on the news today.

Oh you mean the plot to murder a fellow Muslim?

Anyway, please stop ogling this mysterious evidence you have with regard to approx 180 terrorist plots per year and post it up here.

vesp

InFront wrote:

Oh you mean the plot to murder a fellow Muslim?

Thats right. A gang of Pakistani muslims in England seemingly were arrested in a big operation by M15 / English police after several months plotting to kisnap ,torture and behead a muslim British soldier, and they had seemingly planned to show the "execution" on tv, not unlike other beheadings of kidnapped people in orange jumpsuits.

InFront wrote:

Anyway, please stop ogling this mysterious evidence you have with regard to approx 180 terrorist plots per year and post it up here.

What "180 terrorist plots per year " ? I never mention such a number. As you do so, please back it up. I am sure you will not.

vesp

InFront wrote:

One Muslim plot almost ever second day is approximately 180/year.
Proof?

What I wrote was " Every second day almost some terrorist plot is foiled in the UK.... there was mention of another one on the news today". Well, there was one not too long ago as well where it showed the homemade explosives lying on the floor of the train - only the detonator had gone off - leaving the poor muslim suicide bomber astonished to be still alive ! He will have to wait another while until he gets his couple of dozen virgins in Paradise !

Besides " Almost every second day " now is not " approximately 180/year. "
Its raining and very windy almost every second day now, but that does not mean its rainy and very windy approximately 180/year.

As I said already in another thread, the quantity of muslim terrorist plots in the UK was put at 30 by the security forces there. I do not know what the exact up to date figure is.


Now, to get back to the point of the thread, why do people who do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, come here at all so ? I am not saying all muslims are like that, but some clearly are.

InFront

Oh that's the point of the thread is it?
Just so we're clear, there is not one terrorist plot foiled every second day, then, that's the point I was making.
I don't know if this qualifies as a plotted terrorist attack or an attempted murder, that's assuming there will be charges brought forward which isn't clear yet.

vesp

Now, to get back to the point of the thread, why do people who do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, come here at all so ? I am not saying all muslims are like that, but some clearly are.

Trode

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I don't think the running of a country should depend on the majority faith. I would however agree that if the majority of people want Sharia law then democracy should prevail.

I've heard things like this from Muslims(not that you necessairly are one, just sharing a viewpoint) a few times now, and it strikes me as a bit hypocritical. Would you be equally happy to let democracy prevail if the majority decided that practicing Islam was banned, or all Muslims ordered to leave the country? Democracy != majority rule, for good reasons.

Hobbes

vesp wrote:

Now, to get back to the point of the thread, why do people who do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, come here at all so ? I am not saying all muslims are like that, but some clearly are.

How about back up some of your accusations with actual facts and then we can have a debate on the issue?

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Now, to get back to the point of the thread, why do people who do not like our western way of life, issue fatwas on cartoonists, authors and others whom they disagree with, come here at all so ? I am not saying all muslims are like that, but some clearly are.

I don't think quite works like that.

The majority of "fatwas" issued ordering violence or protest that make the news appear to originate from spiritual leaders operating out of the Middle East, in countries such as Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Fundamentalist Muslim teachers and terrorist organisations also tend to target young 2nd generation Muslims in places like Britian American and Europe for terrorist campaigns, young Muslims who have lost a sense of identity with their native country and who are drawn to the idea of Muslim brotherhood as a way to fit in to something. They either go to Islamic colleges in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or teachers from these fundamentalist colleges come to them.

Asking why they "come here" is rather nonsensical since they were either born here or came as children with their parents and as such didn't have a choice.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Trode wrote:

I've heard things like this from Muslims(not that you necessairly are one, just sharing a viewpoint) a few times now, and it strikes me as a bit hypocritical. Would you be equally happy to let democracy prevail if the majority decided that practicing Islam was banned, or all Muslims ordered to leave the country? Democracy != majority rule, for good reasons.

I know what you mean. However it would be highly unusual in a democratically structured state that something like Islam would be banned or members of a religious group would be forced to leave. Though that's pretty irrelevent to your point.

Perhaps it would have to be a very high majority & to be honest I think only the very insecure would want Sharia Law imposed. I suppose I overreacted a bit to the OPs statements/

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Asking why they "come here" is rather nonsensical since they were either born here or came as children with their parents and as such didn't have a choice.

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan. I am not talking about individuals when I pose the general question ; why do so many people come to the decadent west if they do not like our way of life, if they do not integrate etc etc. More muslims have immigrated in to Europe in recent years than the entire population of Ireland. In some areas more people go to mosque than to church each week. What about the sizeable and increasing numbers who want Sharia Law imposed ?

PoleStar

I second Vesp on this one

And just before I start to rant, InFront you obviously have not heard of the colloquial phrase "every second day" which has never to me when used with poetic licence in this way actually meant as you say 180 days per year, this is petty arguing.

Anyway back to the topic. While the topic has become a battleground of searching for evidence etc, there is a valid point in the message that if "The West" is a place where Muslims cannot find a sense of identity and feeling at home, and cannot integrate, why come here.

Not meaning to sound particularly anti-religion. But to give an extreme example, I for one do not want Sharia law, I think democracy is the preferred wat to run a society, therefore I am not going to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, and once I get there start bitching about how I feel alienated and cannot identify with the natives: to me the perfectly logical answer is simple, don't go there.

And before you all start going on about my evidence, I think this was phrased beautifully on the English Questiontime tonight by a Muslim :"The only times we see Muslims on TV is when they are complaining about isolation etc etc" (not his exact words but correct meaning). As he said the Muslims that come to "The West" need to make the efforts themselves to integrate. Although please dont get me wrong I think we do also need to welcome those immigrants from abroad as I am all for a multi-cultural society.

Gurgle

Wibbs wrote:

Maybe some of the latter are trying to get away from some of the former.

^^
What he said.

Hobbes

vesp wrote:

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan.

Hold on. Are you talking about Ireland? Or England? or the West in General? Are you talking only about people who immigrate from outside the EU?

More muslims have immigrated in to Europe in recent years than the entire population of Ireland.

Again please actually back this up with facts. Although even if this was true what does it prove exactly?

What about the sizeable and increasing numbers who want Sharia Law imposed ?

Again, wtf are you talking about? Where is this mysterious information you claim to know coming from? Because recent polls in Ireland say your full of crap.

Or are you just going to ignore what is asked and just continue to repeat the same thing over and over?

Hobbes

PoleStar wrote:

And just before I start to rant, InFront you obviously have not heard of the colloquial phrase "every second day" which has never to me when used with poetic licence in this way actually meant as you say 180 days per year, this is petty arguing.

So what is the correct figure then? He appears to know claiming it is happening so often. Personally I don't believe it is that frequent at all and those that have happened recently have been shown to been a crock.

While the topic has become a battleground of searching for evidence

It is not a battleground. A person makes a claim they are expected to quote sources. This has the effect of letting people research to see if they are true or not but more so not to assume that they are pulling BS out of their backside. Very few people making such accusations actually bother to do the research behind it.

there is a valid point in the message that if "The West" is a place where Muslims cannot find a sense of identity and feeling at home, and cannot integrate, why come here.

It is not a valid question. There are Muslims who live and integrate into the West for generations. They have lived in Europe all their lives. Now they are suddenly not integrating?

As mentioned the recent poll done in Ireland showed that the majority of Muslims are quite content and integrate fine. I have seen no evidence from the OP to claim otherwise.

I for one do not want Sharia law, I think democracy is the preferred wat to run a society

The two are not mutually exclusive. For example Sharia Law actually already exists in the UK and works quite well. There are Sharia Law solicitors. The laws themselves cannot supersede the laws of the land, so the solicitors are trained in finding a solution for Muslims while remaining within the Sharia laws and the laws of the UK.

Most people (who never bother to do research) look at countries like Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/Saudi Arabia and think the horror stories of what goes on there is reflective of Sharia law of a whole. .

And before you all start going on about my evidence,

The reason I would ask you for your evidence because it is clear from your post that you have not even bothered to research into what it is you are claiming to have some deep rooted fear about.

Dontico

vesp wrote:

In some areas more people go to mosque than to church each week.

not very worrying. the amount of people who go to church is bound to drop even if the amount of muslims are increasing. due to process of social and intellectual evolution, christian is bound to go extinct.

vesp

"In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan."

Hobbes wrote:

Hold on. Are you talking about Ireland? Or England? or the West in General? Are you talking only about people who immigrate from outside the EU?

If you read the sentence again , and assuming you have a grasp of the English language, you can answer your own questions. I am not going to answer silly questions where the answer is so obvious in what was written.

Hobbes

vesp wrote:

I am not going to answer silly questions where the answer is so obvious in what was written.

Translation: "I have no clue how to back up what I am talking about".

PoleStar

Hobbes thank you for selectively quoting my post to misconstrue the overall meaning of my post.

Perhaps if you might have read the bits where it is clear that I welcome immigrants to this country, and also the bit where I quoted a Muslim who himself said that Muslims need to stop bitching and whining about difficulty integrating and feelings of isolation on the airwaves and perhaps say something more positive instead.

And while you point out the technical errors of my statements on Sharia law, you seem to have missed the main point which was if I was to go to Saudi (a Sharia governed state) then it is up to me to get to know how things work in Sauid with regard to customs and traditions, and up to me to make an effort to integrate with the locals, rather than bitching about how I feel isolated in Saudi etc etc.

And before you question my motives, among my 9 or so close friends, 3 are Muslim, 1 a Sikh, 1 Hindu, 2 orthodox, and 2 maybe atheist/agnostic. These would share my views also.

Your reply just vindicated my statement that the petty misquoting and arguing is completely taking away from the theme of the topic.

InFront

PoleStar wrote:

I quoted a Muslim who himself said that Muslims need to stop bitching and whining about difficulty integrating and feelings of isolation on the airwaves and perhaps say something more positive instead.

The guy you are talking about is Sarfraz Manzoor, and you are completely misrepresenting what he said on the show.
His points were that for one, we should all be remembering what we have in common as well as celebrating differences, and that this is fundamental to multiculturalism. So no, he wasn't giving out about Muslims "bitching and whining" as you put it. He said nothing of the kind.

Secondly, the part about "isolation on the airwaves" is also completely misrepresented in your post. What Manzoor said was that there is a media culture out there that only ever tend to listen to the Muslim community when they are talking about Islamic politics or else terrorism, and so many people associate all Muslims with these issues, instead of realizing that Muslims have other interests too. This adds to the cycle of forgetting what unites us, and simply focusing on what divides us.

I'm hardly Sarfraz Manzoor's greatest fan in some respects, but I really think it is quite wrong of you to just obscure and bend his sentiments to strengthen your own viewpoint by saying "Well even a Muslim said it..."

vesp

Hobbes wrote:

Translation: "I have no clue how to back up what I am talking about".

What part of "In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan." do you not understand ? You did not ask for back up anyway, you wrote "Are you talking about Ireland? Or England? or the West in General? Are you talking only about people who immigrate from outside the EU?" If you have not watched the news this last week or two alone, and if you cannot comprehend a simple statement, that is your problem.

PoleStar

I may have perhaps jumped a bit far with the interpretation of the said Muslims statements on Question time.

I do take your point that he did refer to the undue amount of time given by the media to Muslims that were mouthing off about feelings of isolation etc.

However he DID say that Muslims DO need to begin saying some more positive things and that was my point. Perhaps my point was misphrased. I totally agree with his point of view that the Muslim and indeed any immigrant religion/population need to perhaps also try and say more positive things and I know its the medias job to produce sensationalist items to make money and attract attention but the Islamic community certainly in the media does not seem to make efforts. Perhaps that is the fault of the media or perhaps it is the unfortunate sitatuation that the voices that tend to speak loudest tend to be the ones that are a little extreme if you will.

InFront

No absolutely, I take your point. It's not a one-way-system, Muslims have moral responsibilities to make an effort to integrate with our communities, just like everybody else in this country. That goes without saying.

But there is a very fine line between imposing integration on a person, and making integration an attractive choice. Here is where the immigration debate is important.
If there are rants about how Muslims do not like the west, and need to integrate or 'go home', it's going to do nothing but create animosity and inhibit unity. It just is not productive.

I don't understand what different people mean by "integration". I would consider it to mean that an immigrant abides by state legislation, and that he or she would appreciate the values and traditions of that society, and respects anybody (who wishes to) to apply such values and traditions to their lives.
In my opinion, it mustn't mean that you have to conform to that line yourself, the last thing this country needs is a homogenous line of citizens all marching together in the national interest. That outlook would seem to have very little faith in the spirit of diversity, and celebration of diversity.

Integration is really a very simple thing. I would question why anyone thinks there is a problem with it in this country.
What do people think are integration difficulties? Two Nigerian mothers speaking Igbo on a bus? A woman or a man observing hijab? Killian's Deutsche Schule on the Roebuck Road?
These are all the really great things about the new Ireland, lets not all be the same thing. It's important to remember that while we are all 'glued together' by our community, there is no need to be glued together in our dress or language or religions either, there's no need to be afraid of the change.

Polestar, you refer to Muslims not saying enough positive things about the west. Is that your personal experience of your Muslim friends that you described above, or is that what you hear about from extreme, isolated incidents in the popular media? Lets look first to our communities and ask ourselves 'is there really is an integration problem at all'?

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan.

As I said the majority linked with terrorism in the last few years in the UK were either born in Britian or moved here as children.

Dec 2001 Shoe Bomber

Richard Reid - Born in UK

7/7 bombings

Mohammed Sidique Khan - Born in UK
Shehzad Tanweer - Born in the UK
Germaine Lindsay - Born in Jamacia, moved to UK when 5 months old
Hasib Hussain - Born in the UK

21 July attempted bombings

Yasin Hassan Omar - Born in Somalia, arrived in UK when 11 years old
Ibrahim Muktar Said - Born in Eritrea, arrived in UK when 14 years old
Ramzi Mohammed - Born in Somalia, arrived in the UK in 1990s (no exact date given but he is 25 so it would have been when he was in his teens)

2006 Transatlantic airplane plot
The majority of the 24 arrested (couldn't be bothered listing them all) for the plot were either born in Britian or arrived as children.

vesp wrote:

I am not talking about individuals when I pose the general question ; why do so many people come to the decadent west if they do not like our way of life, if they do not integrate etc etc.

But you have yet to show that "so many people" come to the decadent west who don't like our way of life.

As far as I can see, based on who is targeted by extremists Islamic groups, the people who seem to have the most issues with our western way of life are either fundamentalists Muslims in the Middle East or young Muslim's who are born in the west or who come here as children.

vesp wrote:

More muslims have immigrated in to Europe in recent years than the entire population of Ireland.

And ... ?

vesp wrote:

In some areas more people go to mosque than to church each week.

And ... ?

vesp wrote:

What about the sizeable and increasing numbers who want Sharia Law imposed ?

What about them ... ?

You seem to have forgotten your original statement that "some many" Muslims are coming here when they hate our western way of life, and fallen back on a rather basic anti-Muslim rant.

Firstly wishing that Sharia law is in place does not mean that Muslims hate our way of life.

Secondly the "increasing numbers" of Muslims who want some form of Islamic law imposed in the west are 2nd generation Muslims, born in the west. This is true of both Ireland and the UK, there is a significantly higher proportion of 2nd generation Muslims who wish some form of Islamic law in place.

HelterSkelter

vesp, why are you so trusting of what the UK security forces tell us? These are the same people who framed the Guilford 4 and Birmingham 6. These are the same people who raided the house of a Muslim family in East London last summer looking for a "bomb factory", shot one of the guys living there and it turned out that these guys were totally innocent (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1796442,00.html). These are the same people who murdered the Brazilian Jean Paul de Menezes at Stockwell tube station and made up all kinds of lies to cover it up.

I think you need to open your mind a little and not believe everything the media and UK security forces tell you.

Zombrex

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think you need to open your mind a little and not believe everything the media and UK security forces tell you.

It would be a start if he did first listen to what the UK police were saying since they are saying the biggest threat is British Muslims, not those who come here to carry out terrorist acts.

Dontico

you know, if there was only one religion to choose from, there wouldnt be any problem.
but then we would probably go to war with vegitarians.

islamic awareness week in ucd. will be going to some stuff.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

It would be a start if he did first listen to what the UK police were saying since they are saying the biggest threat is British Muslims, not those who come here to carry out terrorist acts.

Excuse me, they do not say "the biggest threat is British Muslims", as the majority of British muslims are law abiding people. However they will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims. The vast majority of British muslims are in Britain a relatively short time- usually if they are not actually immigrants they are the offspring of immigrants. Actually as we all know the brainwashed first generation immigrants are sometimes more extremist than many of their parents who migrated to Britain.

InFront

vesp wrote:

the brainwashed first generation immigrants

What an idiotic thing to say. Are you just posting this to get under people's skin?

vesp

Dontico wrote:

you know, if there was only one religion to choose from, there wouldnt be any problem.

Even if there was just one world religion - islam - there would still be wars unfortunately. Look at the news from Iraq only a few days ago - a muslim suicide bomber drove a lorry bomb in to a market and killed 90 people. This is happening all the time between shias and sunnis. It puts the casulties inflicted on westerners / coalition forces in to the twopenny place. Look at the war between muslim Iran and muslim Iraq as well , which happened not too long ago ie in the lifetime of most of us. It claimed many times more people than the Vietnam , Falklands, Gulf War 1, N. Ireland all put together.

vesp

InFront wrote:

What an idiotic thing to say. Are you just posting this to get under people's skin?

No. Do you not think the London tube bombers, or the people for example who were detained last week over the plot to kidnap, torture and behead the muslim British soldier ( who had served in Iraq ) were brainwashed ?

InFront

The subject of that sentance are first generation immigrants, who you suggest are brainwashed. You don't mention suicide bombers. If you want to take it back, great.

vesp

InFront wrote:

The subject of that sentance are first generation immigrants, who you suggest are brainwashed. You don't mention suicide bombers.

Yes I did mention the terrorists. Earlier in the samre short paragraph I wrote " the majority of British muslims are law abiding people. However they ( the security services ) will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims ". Of couse a whole generation of people are not brainwashed terrorists - if they were there would be hundreds if not thousands more atrocities.
Now Infront, do you not think the London tube bombers, or the people for example who were detained last week over the plot to kidnap, torture and behead the muslim British soldier ( who had served in Iraq ) were brainwashed ? Please do not evade the question again.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Excuse me, they do not say "the biggest threat is British Muslims", as the majority of British muslims are law abiding people.

Those two facts aren't related. The majority of Muslims, British or otherwise, are law abiding, peaceful people.

vesp wrote:

However they will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims.

And therefore the biggest threat is not from foreign Muslims coming here to carry out terrorist acts, but from British born Muslims attracted to extremism and terrorism. As I said...

vesp wrote:

The vast majority of British muslims are in Britain a relatively short time- usually if they are not actually immigrants they are the offspring of immigrants.

Define "a relatively short time" ... In a lot of cases of terrorism, such as the 7/7 bombings or the transatlantic plot the majority of the suspected terrorists were born in Britian. I'm not sure how their entire lives would be considered "short time" in Britian.

vesp wrote:

Actually as we all know the brainwashed first generation immigrants are sometimes more extremist than many of their parents who migrated to Britain.

So are you now reconsidering you original assertion that they (Muslims immigrants) come over here even though they hate our way of life?

vesp

In one plot uncovered a few weeks ago in the UK all of the suspects were immigrants.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

The majority of Muslims, British or otherwise, are law abiding, peaceful people.



....the biggest threat is not from foreign Muslims coming here to carry out terrorist acts, but from British born Muslims attracted to extremism and terrorism.

That is the point I made. If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time. Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

That is the point I made. If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants.

Well actually that wasn't the point you made...

vesp wrote:

Wicknight wrote:

Asking why they "come here" is rather nonsensical since they were either born here or came as children with their parents and as such didn't have a choice.

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan.

But leaving that aside for the moment, going back to my original question, how does any of this relate to your original assertion that Muslims are coming to the west despite the fact that they hate our western values?

Of the small minority of Muslims who seem to have strong fundamentalists anti-western views most appear to be born here or have come here as children. They clearly didn't choose to come here so I understand your original assertion that Muslims are coming here despite the fact that they hate our western views.

vesp wrote:

Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time.

Muslims have been in Britian since the the middle ages. The first large groups of Muslims came to Britian over 300 years ago from India as workers of the East Indian Company. The first Mosque was established in 1860 in Cardiff. Immigration of Pakistani Muslims to Britian has been going on since the 1930s.

But again putting all that aside, I still don't understand though what any of this has to do with the assertions in your original post. What are you backing up your original assertion with, the assertion that they are coming here despite the fact that they hate our western values?

Discussing what the 2nd generation are doing or not doing is largely irrelevant to that assertion since they didn't "come here"

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

In one plot uncovered a few weeks ago in the UK all of the suspects were immigrants.

"suspects", that's exactly what they are, innocent people who have not been proven guilty of commiting any crime. Why don't you concentrate on the people who have actually been convicted of a terrorist offense? Weren't all the 7/7 bombers born in Britain?

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Muslims have been in Britian since the the middle ages. The first large groups of Muslims came to Britian over 300 years ago from India as workers of the East Indian Company. The first Mosque was established in 1860 in Cardiff. Immigration of Pakistani Muslims to Britian has been going on since the 1930s.

There are millions of muslims in the uk now. There are millions of muslims in France now. There are millions of muslims in Germany now. Are you saying there were millions of muslims in each of these countries say a short half century ago ? What do you think the background of the muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK is? How many have grandparents who were born in the UK would you say ? If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time. Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

the_syco

/me throws in a wrench

The IRA went over to England to blow sh|t up. Why? Cos it works better than mail order. Likewise with the Muslims. The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Hobbes

PoleStar wrote:

Hobbes thank you for selectively quoting my post to misconstrue the overall meaning of my post.

I am not misquoting anything. You are rambling on about the same thing over and over but you know what you have yet to post any proof to your ramble. I am only taking part of your quotes because its messy just to quote the whole lot. People can go back and read the rest.

you seem to have missed the main point which was if I was to go to Saudi (a Sharia governed state) then it is up to me to get to know how things work in Sauid

Again you didn't say this before and you have yet again to post any proof to back up your statements.

You want people to take you seriously start backing your words up.

Hobbes

the_syco wrote:

/me throws in a wrench

The Irish went over to England to blow sh|t up. Why? Cos it works better than mail order. Likewise with the Muslims. The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Apoligies to Syco, but wanted to show a point to the crux of the OPs argument. The vast majority of Muslims in Europe (both national and immigrants) are peaceful and integrate fine. The OP has yet to prove otherwise beyond anecdote.

However the terminology being used "Muslim" is tarring those innocent people with the same brush. Those that are killers/suicide bombers are "muslim extremists". Just calling them Muslim is offensive in the same way as calling all Irish people members of the "IRA".