Adamspeak

Jackie laughlin

Why does Gerry Adams talk of "continuing the struggle" if he means contesting elections?

gandalf

Jackie you have been warned before, no more one line questions without your own point of view attached. If I don't see your point of view added to this in the next few hours I will close it. Any more posts like this and I will ban you for a week. This is not the first time this has been brought to your attention.

HelterSkelter

I presume he is talking about "continuing the struggle" in a democratic way.

Jackie laughlin

Gandalf,
Apologies but I don't recall being told that such an opening was out of order. I've no problem stating a point of view. I'm interested in the words that are used in politics. Indeed I've contributed to a thread on George Orwell to the effect that Nespeak is the most neglected part of Orwell's predictions for society.

I think that Gerry Adams (Well, SFIRA generally) are expert users of "Bafflegab" (Lots of hits if Googled). "Struggle" is not a word generally used by democrats. I see a threat in it; others may read it as confirmation that that SFIRA has not abandoned struggle for constitutionalism.

You should be familiar with the charter and how this board is run by now,you've been around long enough
Just as we don't allow polls (though there are exceptions and the upcoming election will be one of them in a strictly controled manner that (we) - I mean Gandalf will announce nearer the time.
We don't allow people to link and run articles without opinion or run polls by default such as you have done.
Soap boxing is also out.
This is a discussion forum.
All that is either implicit or explicit in the guidelines for posting sticky.

gandalf

Jackie,

Here are the first couple of lines of the Politics posting guidelines.

Starting Threads

Topics should be relevant to the politics board.

Topics should not be verbatim quotes from some article sans comment. Add a comment before or after the post, offering your opinion on the subject, or at the very least, your reason for adding the topic.

Do you honestly think the starting post of this thread conveyed your opinion or even what your reason was for adding the topic. You posted a similiar thread called "Should Irish tax exiles be told to stay away? " and had to be prompted by Victor for your opinion.

I don't expect to see posts like this again.

RedPlanet

I dunno i interpreted the post to be just another petty SF bashing thread.
You know, like the OP may have intended for others to come along and post quotes from Gerry and engage in general anti-republican rants, etc.
Don't really see any other reason for this thread.

I might point out that it is not in order to post what you just posted either Red Planet.
Thats what the report the post functionality is for.
Do not do that again.

This thread is fast losing any shred of usefullness.

Destination recycle bin if it doesnt improve.

mike65

Lets talk about struggles then! My ears pricked up at his use of that word, heard it 2 or 3 times, it was'nt required in any of the sentences it was part of. Its what one expects though, for Adams its a perpetural stuggle as he claws his way to a hefty expense account and public service pension.

He's no worse than the rest of them in that sense, but the language is jarring and something he'll have to drop fully if he does'nt want to scare the middle-class horses down here in the future.

Mike.

nacho libre

It's language he has to use at the present time to carry hesistant members of his own party into the new dispensation. Soon he will be using more emollient words that are congruous for a democratic party. Adams will soon be garnering the votes of of people who are worried about his usage of the word "Struggle"

It's good we have comes this far; to the stage of being concerned about word usage...

partholon

jaysus if the word "struggle" confuses you dont listen to bertie when hes on form. guy looks like hes speaking a different language. one oddly missing the words "yes" and "no"

at a guess, and its just a guess though, i reckon its cause he's still looking for that pesky 32 county republic. which is hardly a doddle with paisley as your gov. partner. though i could be wrong

Raskolnikov

Radical left-wingers (Sinn Féin, Workers Party, Socialist Party, etc) constantly make reference to the workers/socialist/asshole struggles. It's not uncommon for people of this persuasion. Infact, I distinctly remember Pronsias de Rossa making use of the word constantly.

Jackie laughlin

Tristrame, Gandalf,
Come now, I've already apologised. You really will have to accept that people are honest and breach rules by accident. My intention was to open a discussion (in both cases and I certainly don't remember registering Victor's message as a warning or indeed as a message that I had breached a rule). I'm not exactly shy about offering an opinion.

My opposition to SFIRA is deep. However my interest in the use of language to deform argument extends far beyond them. They are merely easily accessible, public examples. Journalists very, very seldom ask people to explain terms.

As a socialist I am familiar with the term, "struggle". It is used to describe activitities other than taking part in elections.

Jackie laughlin

PS I've just checked and in the other thread which I opened as a bald question Victor simply asked my opinion and I gave it!

flogen

In SF terms, struggle is used in reference to the struggle to remove the British from this island.

When the IRA called a ceasefire, and more recently decommissioned, they spoke of continuing their struggle through wholy democratic means... Adams is simply trying to convince those who oppose support for the PSNI that this move is all part of the plan, and that the party hasn't given up on its goal, it's just taking a different path to the same.

(slightly off topic, but I'd like to point out as I did before - when the IRA announced their full decommissioning, people said they had ended their war... the IRA never said that, however, and I can only assume that this was an important aspect of their shift, especially amongst their Army Council.)

Also, as pointed out, the term struggle can often be seen as a socialist concept - just like the way Cuban officials will always refer to the "revolution" as an ever-present reality, and not a single occourance or series of battles that are now in the past.

Other words that SF members used during the Ard Fheis to try and keep the link between their past and present were the likes of "comrade", again a hat-tip to the supposedly socialist roots of the PIRA and SF.

Less of the symantics, but you're sure to have heard Adams tell people that the support for the PSNI is a step towards a United Ireland too - I see that as a bizarre leap of logic, but it was all part of an orchestrated attempt to say "we've not given up, we've not lost, we're still on track and this is the best route".

In fact, if you got the transcripts of every speech made at the recent Ard Fheis, you'd have months of symantical etc. lessons right there for you

Raskolnikov

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I am familiar with the term, "struggle". It is used to describe activitities other than taking part in elections.

:rolleyes: this has got to be a troll? Are you implying that all socialists who uses the word struggle, are referring to the use of physical force as a mean to an end?

Jackie laughlin

What is a "troll"?

No, I'm saying that socialists apply the term struggle to other than standing for election. The term would include protests, strikes etc. It could also apply to violence.

A Dub in Glasgo

Are you saying that SF should abandon protests? With the amount of people/groups/media/parties with an anti-SF agenda, maybe SF consider it a struggle to contest elections.

Was this thread posted on April 1st?

oscarBravo

A troll is something the charter of this forum says you're not allowed to accuse people of being/perpetrating. Raskolnikov, take note.

joebhoy1916

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Why does Gerry Adams talk of "continuing the struggle" if he means contesting elections?

Continuing the struggle could be still struggling with injustice today.
Struggle for freedom and equality.

Whether It be the ballot box or the armalite It will always be regarded as a struggle to men like Gerry Adams.

Jackie laughlin

Everyone wants freedom and equality. The debate starts only after someone is asked to state what they mean by those terms.

What forms of political actions does Gerry Adams refer to when he says, "struggle"?

Fratton Fred

In a "normal" society where there is no "Struggle", would there be a place for Gerry Adams, of even SF?

Obviously GA does not see his job as done because there is not a united Ireland, but if people decided that the current situation was good enough, would that mean the end of Gerry Adams political career?

Could people see a place in the Dail for GA?

ghostdancer

Fratton Fred wrote:

In a "normal" society where there is no "Struggle", would there be a place for Gerry Adams, of even SF?

Obviously GA does not see his job as done because there is not a united Ireland, but if people decided that the current situation was good enough, would that mean the end of Gerry Adams political career?

Could people see a place in the Dail for GA?

your lack of understanding of SF is remarkable.
you seem to think the only thing SF is about is a united ireland, try reading up on some of their policies.
seeing as there's several SF TD's in the Dail already, then even if Gerry Adams decided to up sticks and move down to the south and contest elections for the Dail, there'd be plenty of room for him.
the only word i can think of when reading your post is "ignorance".
i don't even know where to start with your "normal" society comment.

InFront

ghostdancer wrote:

you seem to think the only thing SF is about is a united ireland, try reading up on some of their policies.

Their economic policies are notoriously lofty and unworkable, and I remember reading something in their pre-budgetary submission about private property being the stuff of an "oppressed" society and rolling my eyes quite dramatically.

I'm a bit dubious about their support for "community policing" too. We've just come through a very bad patch of SF Community Policing, why go backwards?

LordSutch

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Why does Gerry Adams talk of "continuing the struggle" if he means contesting elections?

So what does Adams mean? could he mean the struggle for a 'United Ireland'? or does he mean the Struggle for domination of the whole island? or both? presumably the Armed Struggle is over for good, so he cant be referring to that old republican deamon. If he means the struggle for a so- called 'United Ireland' then does he intend to overthrow the Good Friday Agreement? (which states that the North will remain part of the UK for as long as the majority of pepole living there wish) is this the Struggle he speaks of maybe? I personally think he means all of the above, but maybe some Republican contributor can tell us what is meant by "Continuing the Struggle".............

Jackie laughlin

There are two main possibilities. Firstly, he may be posturing. He may be genuineinely reformed but using old terminology to maintain credibility with militants. Secondly, he may be honest in this regard and saying quite openly that SFIRA is now "slightly democratic". Hell will freeze over before our compliant journalists will ask him.

Fratton Fred

ghostdancer wrote:

your lack of understanding of SF is remarkable.
you seem to think the only thing SF is about is a united ireland, try reading up on some of their policies.
seeing as there's several SF TD's in the Dail already, then even if Gerry Adams decided to up sticks and move down to the south and contest elections for the Dail, there'd be plenty of room for him.
the only word i can think of when reading your post is "ignorance".
i don't even know where to start with your "normal" society comment.

err yes, that is why i was asking a question. I was not giving my opinion. This is a debate and I was looking for discussion.

but hey, thanks for letting us know who you will be voting for at the next election:rolleyes:

FTA69

Jackie laughlin wrote:

"Struggle" is not a word generally used by democrats. I see a threat in it; others may read it as confirmation that that SFIRA has not abandoned struggle for constitutionalism.

Are you threatened by the dark as well?

Was Nelson Mandela rejecting deomcracy when he used the word struggle?

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

Are you threatened by the dark as well?

Uncalled for. Don't do it again.

Shutuplaura

Guys, really! Gerry has been talking about struggle for the last forty years. its a paryt of his vocabulary that he's probably not going to change.

The leadership of the party does I'm sure still believe in a united Ireland and the struggle they refer to is the political struggle to achieve their ends. Pol's of all hues and backgrounds use this word, its amusing to think of people going stir crazy because of Adams using it now. Clearly he has personally staked too much on a political strategy to ever lead a mainstream republican armed struggle again.

Jackie laughlin

Shutuplaura,
No one is going crazy. For the most part this is a discussion about the choice of words used in political debate/communication. Gerry Adams and the rest of SF/IRA have a much admired, well-staffed and funded PR department working for them. Their words are very carefully chosen. I think it is sensible to listen carefully.

Shutuplaura

No Worries, I was only joking, no offense intended. But still, struggle is a legitimate term for all politicians - for instance, if Harney talked about the stuggle to reform the health services it wouldn't raise an eyebrow. Also, Adams has a core support which is is leading - much to many older SF supporters reluctance - into new territory. He is probably just trying to reassure them with word from the old Lexicon.

You are dead right about the SF PR machine. Really slick and professional. A friend of mine was an election worker for them in '02 and I got the briefest of glimpses through him of how good they were. Some advisers from the north came down a few days before and they really know what they were about. From what I could see the only other party to have anything near it was FF. Of course it was a worms eye view of one constituancy but I'm guessing it ws the same in many others and at a higher level too.