A Question of Faith?

Fatboydim

Recently for work related reasons I've been doing a lot of research into Spiritualism. Which as always, got me thinking how it applies to poker.

I'm sure most of us here have been brought up Catholic. I'm sure a lot of players believe in luck, fate and or superstition. Famously Andy Black is a Buddhist. There must be a number of Poker players who have "Win the Irish Open" on their Cosmic ordering list.

I myself have always liked to believe in fate... so if I lose I go... "Ah it wasn't meant to be this time." [Such as when my aces got cracked by pocket 8s on Wednesday] But my favourite quote from Shakespeare is "Men at times are masters of their fate - The fault [dear Brutus] lies not in the stars but in ourselves" [Mind you the buggers did then go on to murder Caesar] I tend towards Darwinist rather than Creationalist. But it seems to me that belief in a higher power can give a player an edge [AB] or is this just PMA [Positive mental attitude]

So the question is Science or Higher power? Which category do you fall in? I'd like to do a poll but I don't know how... But to start off I'm saying:

Science

mewso

There can't be a God. If there is he picked Jamie Gold and that just can't be possible.

Science.

karlh

Science, but with some non-God-related PMA

Scotty #

Fatboydim wrote:

I myself have always liked to believe in fate... so if I lose I go... "Ah it wasn't meant to be this time."

"I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Its just the way the dealer shuffled the cards IMO. Fate, destiny, your religious beliefs, have nothing to do with the boards outcome.

So its Science for me - but that doesn't mean I'm an evolutionist.

Wreck

Fatboydim wrote:

I tend towards Darwinist rather than Creationalist.

This made me lol.

Science. And I would love to be able to always play against people who use use fate/superstitions as factors when making decisions at a poker table.

sikes

dont confuse darwinism with science.

150 years of trying to find proof in the fossil record etc and nothing. Even if evolutionary theory was to be true, it in no way disproves a higher power.

what you should really be asking is do you believe in god or not.

For further reading on how stupid darwinism is refer to mr garison from south park.

DeVore

Science is my higher power...

The only benefit of believing in superstition or "fate" at a poker table might be the control of tilt since you are simply abdicating all responsibility for the event to some mysterious force that has a plan you just arent aware of.

"When you stare long into an abyss, the abyss also stares back at you". People dont want to believe in total illogical chance because it has unpleasant implications for their life and death.

DeV.

pok3rplaya

I believe in probability.

luckylucky

hmmm I'm a bit piddled after having drinks with my neighbours but all this sounds familiar to the drunken conversations we were having. Hmmm this hasn't got anything much to do with poker though per se. Yeah as FatBoyDim says most of us were brought up as Catholic and most of us know or at least think now we were spoon fed a load of crap, at least I do. Organised Religion has been used by powerful groups to keep the masses docile. Why was the Catholic church based in Rome? A. Cause that's where Jesus would have wanted it to be? or B. Because when the Roman Emperor figured out how useful this religion could be he wanted it under his nose.
I know what I think!


If you want to believe in faith in regards to poker, well personally I have had so many unbeliavble sheit and great things happen to me that I can't attribute faith to any of it, just chaos.

Still I would never dismiss some higher power but as for helping you in poker, well maybe if you're in sync with the universe like buddhist practioners like Andy Black well that might help

DeVore

pok3rplaya you just reminded me.

A mate of mine has a t-shirt that says "I believe" on the front and "in the certainty of chance" on the back. He says its scary how many religious nutters come up on the street and basically cheer in front of him.... :eek:

DeV.

DapperGent

sikes wrote:

dont confuse darwinism with science.

150 years of trying to find proof in the fossil record etc and nothing. Even if evolutionary theory was to be true, it in no way disproves a higher power.

what you should really be asking is do you believe in god or not.

For further reading on how stupid darwinism is refer to mr garison from south park.

lol

pok3rplaya

lol I'd love a T-shirt like that.

phantom_lord

why would (catholic view type)god give a **** about poker.


science obv.

Doc Farrell

"Do not go by revelation or tradition, do not go by rumour, or the sacred scriptures, do not go by hearsay or mere logic, do not go by bias towards a notion or by another person's seeming ability and do not go by the idea "He is our teacher". But when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practised and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing ~


What if you experienced a feeling that you were 'caught' in a never ending game, with umlimited rebuys, one you always ended winning? Would you call this heaven or hell?

What if our scientific concepts themselves are not concrete, but constantly being redefined, such as our understanding of Time and Space? How then can a concept, such as luck, be considered an Opposite to reason?

here's a thought to sleep on:

'The Buddha said he did remember past lives, many past lives, many aeons of past lives. He said specifically that he remembered ninety-one aeons. That's ninety big bangs, the time before and the time afterwards, huge spaces of time. That's why the Buddha said there was not just one universe, but many universes. We are not talking about parallel universes as some scientists say. We are talking about sequential universes, with what the Buddha called sanvattati vivattati. This is Pāli, meaning the unfolding of the universe and the infolding of it, beginnings and endings.

The suttas even give a measure for the lifetime of a universe. When I was a theoretical physicist, my areas of expertise were the very small and the very large; fundamental particle physics and astrophysics. They were the two aspects that I liked the most, the big and the small. So I knew what was meant by the age of a universe and what a 'big bang' was all about. The age of a universe, the last time I looked in the journals, was somewhere about seventeen thousand million years. In the Buddhist suttas they say that about thirty seven thousand million years is a complete age. When I told that to the state astronomer he said yes, that estimate was in the ball park, it was acceptable.'

www.bswa.org

ArmaniJeanss

Doc Farrell wrote:

"Do not go by revelation or tradition, do not go by rumour, or the sacred scriptures, do not go by hearsay or mere logic, do not go by bias towards a notion or by another person's seeming ability and do not go by the idea "He is our teacher". But when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blamable, that it is praised by the wise and when practised and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing ~


What if you experienced a feeling that you were 'caught' in a never ending game, with umlimited rebuys, one you always ended winning? Would you call this heaven or hell?

What if our scientific concepts themselves are not concrete, but constantly being redefined, such as our understanding of Time and Space? How then can a concept, such as luck, be considered an Opposite to reason?

here's a thought to sleep on:

'The Buddha said he did remember past lives, many past lives, many aeons of past lives. He said specifically that he remembered ninety-one aeons. That's ninety big bangs, the time before and the time afterwards, huge spaces of time. That's why the Buddha said there was not just one universe, but many universes. We are not talking about parallel universes as some scientists say. We are talking about sequential universes, with what the Buddha called sanvattati vivattati. This is Pāli, meaning the unfolding of the universe and the infolding of it, beginnings and endings.

The suttas even give a measure for the lifetime of a universe. When I was a theoretical physicist, my areas of expertise were the very small and the very large; fundamental particle physics and astrophysics. They were the two aspects that I liked the most, the big and the small. So I knew what was meant by the age of a universe and what a 'big bang' was all about. The age of a universe, the last time I looked in the journals, was somewhere about seventeen thousand million years. In the Buddhist suttas they say that about thirty seven thousand million years is a complete age. When I told that to the state astronomer he said yes, that estimate was in the ball park, it was acceptable.'

www.bswa.org

Call.

Fatboydim

Doc Farrell wrote:

What if you experienced a feeling that you were 'caught' in a never ending game, with umlimited rebuys, one you always ended winning? Would you call this heaven or hell?

Sounds like Satre - Hell is other people.

Spiritualism would be very usefull in poker though - shame it's a load of crock - but if my "Spirit Guide" was able to tell me what my opponents were holding I'd be very happy.

The reason I like to explore the idea of fate is because I once had a pre-cognitive dream. A month before a car crash I knew it was going to happen. Not exactly when but details such as where I would stay that night, who I would spend the night with. Lack of injury etc. In short I walked away from an 80mph crash that I should have been killed in. And I mean walked. I had two small lacerations to hand and face - that's all. Four of us in the car, two stayed in hospital two didn't. And there is no way I could have engineered the events to transpire in the way they did.

What I took from it was a sense of purpose. And that's quite useful in life.

So where does that leave us at the poker table? What about those times when we know our aces are going to be cracked? Or we sense that we should play 10 7 off and the flop comes 10 10 7. ? Obviously there are logical explanations - such as remembering all the times we are beat with aces over and above the times we win with them. Then it's re-enforced when I'm called by a lesser hand and the player spikes a card. Same goes for miracle flops on ATC.

So has anyone had anything better than that happen? Have you dreamt of winning a game and the next day it's happened exactly like your dream?

Have you ever heard a voice saying call when every book , expert and odds calculator says you should fold and lo the card comes?

And is it easier to believe in Aliens than a supreme being?

Silly questions I know... But as our current highest profile Irish player believes in Karma etc etc -What can we learn from it?

ROCKMAN

Just remembered old joke.
What,s the difference between church and the poker table.....
WHEN U PRAY AT THE TABLE U MEAN IT.....

ocallagh

Fatboydim wrote:

But as our current highest profile Irish player believes in Karma etc etc -What can we learn from it?

as the T-Shirt says!

Wreck

Fatboydim wrote:

So has anyone had anything better than that happen? Have you dreamt of winning a game and the next day it's happened exactly like your dream?

No

Fatboydim wrote:

Have you ever heard a voice saying call when every book , expert and odds calculator says you should fold and lo the card comes?

Yes, but I'm not proud of it.

Fatboydim wrote:

And is it easier to believe in Aliens than a supreme being?

For me, yes. At least the existence of aliens is logically possible.

Fatboydim wrote:

Silly questions I know... But as our current highest profile Irish player believes in Karma etc etc -What can we learn from it?

Not sure, except that I would guess regular meditation may give a bit of an edge when the pressure is on at the poker table.

sikes

while we may all have had the flawed teachings of the catholic church drilled into us, in some cases literally, we are still able to make our own judgements on god and the teachings in the bible that the catholic church has twisted.

I find that many people use the catholic expericnce as a reason to fall out with religion, but its just a reason for turning their face away from something that might actually be challenging to them.

However, Im still not sure what we are discussing.

If someone is religious and they pray for a card to come they are stupid

Scotty #

Wreck wrote:

fatboydim wrote:

And is it easier to believe in Aliens than a supreme being?

For me, yes. At least the existence of aliens is logically possible.

So do you believe we, and everything else, evolved from some gas that was just floating about in space??

strewelpeter

Scotty # wrote:

So do you believe we, and everything else, evolved from some gas that was just floating about in space??

Thats not something to believe or not believe, thats simply a fact.

OMFG!!!!!
Just as I had finished typing that out this happened in the very first hand of a SnG:

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Our Hero (Bright, non mystical un-superstious scientific type) [As Ah]

Villan (God Botherering fundamentalist idiot) raises to 105

Our Hero raises to 330
Villan raises to 1,500, and is all in
Our Hero calls 1,170, and is all in

Villan shows [7c 9h] :eek:

Our Hero shows [As Ah]
*** FLOP *** [5h 8c 5d]
*** TURN *** [5h [6h]
*** RIVER *** [5h 8c 5d 6h]
Villan shows a straight, Ten high
Our Hero shows two pair, Aces and Fives
Villan wins the pot (3,015) with a straight, Ten high

So I guess its down to whether you believe that that I am being punished by some abstract supreme being who has nothing better to do than mess with my head as payback for my proslytising atheism. The alternative is that you are capable of understanding and accepting the consequences of the certainty of chance.

...BTW as further evidence for the certainty of chance , said Villan was out of the Sng before I had finished editing the hh :cool: !

sikes

strewelpeter wrote:

Thats not something to believe or not believe, thats simply a fact.

lol,theory is not fact

DeVore

As for a "meddlesome" God... I dug this up from a few years past.
http://devore.journals.ie/2003/10/24/letsuspray/

DeV.

Fatboydim

Perhaps we could have like, multi level marketing pyramid schemes for prayer. You could go out and recruit 10 prayers in your area and eventually become the area manager! Quote from Tom's link.

They actually do have those - They're called prayer chains.

I urge everyone to go to rome and have a walk around the Vatican Museum and the Sistene Chapel. [Sorry if it's spelt wrong] The wealth of the catholic church is phenominal. If they sold the works of art they own they could plought that money into cures for cancer and aids, solve world poverty and do everything that a loving god would want them to do. - But they don't.

But the idea of consequences for our actions on earth is older than Isis. And it persists in all religions.

Wreck

Scotty # wrote:

So do you believe we, and everything else, evolved from some gas that was just floating about in space??

I don't think this is the right forum for this discussion, and whatever I say to you will not change anything anyway.

I_and_I

Sometimes there is just nothing you can do when it comes to poker, but 97% of the time its your own fault if you dont come away with the pot. On the other hand I have had plenty of experiences when I have had the turn or the river card flash across my mind, and it actually comes up. Helped me win alot of games, but I doubt it was anything spiritual. Probably just dumb luck.

Scotty #

Wreck wrote:

I don't think this is the right forum for this discussion, and whatever I say to you will not change anything anyway.

I agree. I'm just always curious as to why people dismiss a higher power as unbelievable or illogical so fast but yet are so willing to believe we've been here for millions of years and have evolved from a few gases that just happened to be there. Its an age old endless argument to which we'll probably never know the truth.

I think the OP is really just asking if people are superstitious or not. A huge amount of poker players are. I'm not. If a player hits a runner, runner after I've flopped four of a kind its because of no other reason than thats the order the dealer dealt the cards.

sikes

I_and_I wrote:

Sometimes there is just nothing you can do when it comes to poker, but 97% of the time its your own fault if you dont come away with the pot.

please enlighten us on your super system where we will win 97% of pots if we make no mistakes.

strewelpeter

Scotty # wrote:

I agree. I'm just always curious as to why people dismiss a higher power as unbelievable or illogical so fast but yet are so willing to believe we've been here for millions of years and have evolved from a few gases that just happened to be there.

Errrrm...because it is supported by the evidence.
But as you say this isn't the place for this argument. In any case trying to debate with people whose worldview is based on superstition is beyond my abilities, suffice to say that I'm right, you're wrong, but whatever legends or myths you subscribe to I cannot ever disprove disprove.

As creation myths go this must be the most probable:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Scotty # wrote:

I think the OP is really just asking if people are superstitious or not. ... I'm not.

Maybe you aren't particularly superstitious about poker but there isn't anything more superstitious than attributing causation to a higher power.

hotspur

Getting back to the ramblin' gamblin' forum that this is rather than primary school level philosophy what's the odds that this thread was sparked by Len having lost his mind and now believing he is Jesus and can turn 27o into AA at will? 8-1 a fair price?

I lean a little bit towards Darwinism over creationism myself (!) but creationists are *so* much funnier. You know that due to their lobbying in America if you go to the grand canyon the tourist information no longer says anything about the age of the canyon because they don't want to offend creationists who believe the world is only 6,000 years old. True story.

God 1
Geology 0

sikes

hotspur wrote:

I lean a little bit towards Darwinism over creationism myself (!) but creationists are *so* much funnier. You know that due to their lobbying in America if you go to the grand canyon the tourist information no longer says anything about the age of the canyon because they don't want to offend creationists who believe the world is only 6,000 years old. True story.

I think this is more with them being american that being creationist and there are many examples in the states where liberal organisation, who hail darwinsim, have sued schools for having classes on creationism/questioning evolution. In one case for putting a sticker on a biology book to encourage pupils to study evolution "with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."

hotspur

I like The Simpson's take on it evolution v creationism:

http://tinyurl.com/ke6cz

cardshark202

Imagine what would have happened if Eve was dog ugly.

sikes

hotspur wrote:

I like The Simpson's take on it evolution v creationism:

http://tinyurl.com/ke6cz

much prefer mr garison explanation of evolution in southpark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZjaZrw-Cc

Fatboydim

The point of the Op is the fact that I expect most poker players and posters on this forum to err on the side of science. However I’m interested in those who don’t. They must be out there. Andy is unlikely to post on this forum and I wouldn’t expect him to but he’s a player who accepts a religious point of view on the world. He talks about paths to enlightenment and poker is his current path. This is very close to the Spiritualist church which I’ve been researching and why I made the connection. I was also surprised to find a player friend of mine from the UK who believes in Spiritualism. So he believes in psychics, mediums, life after death, ghosts etc. I know this person well and respect them. As indeed I respect Andy. I’ve no intention of turning believers into non believers or vice versa – But it fascinates me how belief fits with the game . Ok it is an intellectual challenge, but it’s all about bluff, deceit, courage and more than anything making money. That’s how we keep score. I also read about an American couple who both play at a high level and are born again. So how does that fit?

I regard myself as a sceptic but see that as a healthy position. And clearly there is value in faith – believing in a higher power – It’s one of the twelve steps in addiction recovery programmes. If someone can show me a path to enlightenment that ends in a WSOP bracelet or victory in the Irish Open I’ll take it.

But of course I don't think I'm Jesus... Look at the picture... Isn't it obvious... I'm Buddha.

sikes

daniel negranu talks about his beliefs in christainty alot in his blog, and in the last episode of HSP.

Bruson also talks about in super system.

What i would love to ask them their take on making an honest living as instructed to do so in the bible!

DeVore

But the idea of consequences for our actions on earth is older than Isis. And it persists in all religions.

Its a powerful form of control without requiring an army or police force.

DeV.

DeVore

What i would love to ask them their take on making an honest living as instructed to do so in the bible!

And, um... why wouldnt this be an honest living??

DeV.

sikes

DeVore wrote:

And, um... why wouldnt this be an honest living??

DeV.

Its something for nothing. your not working to gain however you are actively using deceit to obtain the money they earned.

Here are a few verses

Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Leviticus 19:13

He that tilleth his land shall be satisfied with bread: but he that followeth vain persons is void of understanding.

Proverbs 12:11

This could be fun, remeber to attack the post, not the poster! The online bible is a weird version hence the ths at the end of every word

hotspur

DeVore wrote:

Its a powerful form of control without requiring an army or police force.
DeV.

You can make an argument that the purpose of a religion infused with an ethics based theology is exactly to excerise control over the behaviour of citizens in a society. Plato explores this idea in The Republic.

The noble lie is very relevant today because if you understand the essence of the American neo-con intellectual philosophy then you'll know that they consider lies such as WPD in Iraq, and manipulating religious and other "useful" beliefs (such as safety) as being justifiable for what they consider to be a noble end.

It exists in poker too. No matter how you cut it at the end of the day essentially for players it is about taking money from suckers without personally giving them a product or service. It's about taking advantage of people not being good at something that you are. As Fatboydim said it's about deceit to seperate people from their money. Saying "ah sure that's the game" isn't sufficient to obviate the ethical issue. If someone who was learning disabled but who understood the natue of poker sits down to play you is it morally correct to take them for their money? What if it is just a person who is pretty dumb and bad at poker? And what's the moral difference between the two?

Religionists have had various problems with gambling throughout the centuries but I have respect for the one that questions the ethics of taking money from people who are suckers. The only difference between a confidence trickster taking money from a sucker whose beliefs about the situation are erroneous and a poker player taking money from a sucker whose beliefs about their ability / the game are erroneous is...well I'll you guys fill in that yourselves. Just because you call something a game doesn't mean that everything in it is fine because those are the rules of the game we chose to play!

sikes

nice post hotspur

Fatboydim

Yes nice post hotspur. It brings into mind the time I saw Brian McFadden playing Omaha at the SE. He was terrible and players were queuing up to take advantage of the fact. Admittedly he could afford to lose, but that wasn’t the point. The opposite of that is Andy at the WSOP when a player had failed to return from a break because of the confusion at the WSOP and refused to play. Obviously you don’t need to be religious to be ethical…

Brunson’s an interesting one. Didn’t he have cancer and it “Disappeared” after his wife put in a load of praying time?

cardshark202

Fatboydim wrote:

Brunson’s an interesting one. Didn’t he have cancer and it “Disappeared” after his wife put in a load of praying time?

coincidence

ocallagh

religion lol... made by man for man.


Secondly, The things we learn through science are relative to (and hampered by) what we think we know.. and what we don't know!! so, when something new comes along we try to understand it using reasoning and methodologies that might be wrong. We don't have a clear perspective. For this reason science can never rule out anything including the possibility of a God. I think, judging by what we know it is highly unlikely that a god exists..

cardshark202

ocallagh wrote:

religion lol... made by man for man.


Secondly, The things we learn through science are relative to (and hampered by) what we think we know.. and what we don't know!! so, when something new comes along we try to understand it using reasoning and methodologies that might be wrong. We don't have a clear perspective. For this reason science can never rule out anything including the possibility of a God. I think, judging by what we know it is highly unlikely that a god exists..

Well put. I agree.

Fatboydim

cardshark202 wrote:

coincidence

The point there is that Brunson believes it. A good example of a top poker player who has faith.

What was the quote from Sherlock homes? Once you've ruled out all the possible solutions only the impossible remains therefore the impossible must be true.

Of course that was written by Arthur Conan Doyle - who was of course a leading Spiritualist.

Opium for the mases. A way of negating responsibility? But De Vore's article is interesting too. In so far as why in times of stress do so many of us pray to a god we don't believe in? We may as well ask Thor or Odin for help.

[* In the first world war the most common cry on facing death was to invoke your mother.]

kincsem

Fatboydim wrote:

What was the quote from Sherlock homes? Once you've ruled out all the possible solutions only the impossible remains therefore the impossible must be true.

Len, I think it is ...... if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, is the truth. It's very useful when analysing horse races.

Religion is used by some people to gain power or control. That says more about the individuals than the religion. One thing that intrigues me is the never-ending discoveries by science. Will they ever come up with a solution as good as Cillit-Bang?

Anyways, coming to a poker table near you ....... my miniature bronze Laughing Buddha, sitting on his money sack, holding a gold ingot and a Ru Yi. He is guaranteed to bring luck and wealth.

Daithio

hotspur wrote:

The only difference between a confidence trickster taking money from a sucker whose beliefs about the situation are erroneous and a poker player taking money from a sucker whose beliefs about their ability / the game are erroneous is...

There's a huge difference. Anybody who sits down at a poker table is aware that the whole point of the game is to con people out of their money. The con man's game is much more sinister because his scam depends precisely on the victim not being aware of this fact.

MrPillowTalk

I believe in God I dont believe in religon.

I also am superstitious, sometimes I just know Im going to win and when I feel this way I probably play better/more fearless as a result. I have certain things I do when I want to change my luck, I play less when I think im unlucky and more when I think Im lucky. I know that my portion of good luck is far higher than most peoples, this is why I think Ive had my limited successes in poker.

I dont think Andy believing in karma has anything much to do with his successes I think his belief in gettiing the third raise in and relentless aggression are probably more to do with this.

hotspur

Daithio wrote:

There's a huge difference. Anybody who sits down at a poker table is aware that the whole point of the game is to con people out of their money. The con man's game is much more sinister because his scam depends precisely on the victim not being aware of this fact.

I addressed the point that I don't think knowledge of the nature of a game / activity is necessarily sufficient to make it morally okay. Essentially making this the only distinction is saying that it is okay to take someone's money as long as you don't lie about the fact that you are going to do it. Personally I think taking someone for a grand is a lot worse than lying to them. Which would you prefer someone do to you?

Would promoting Russian roulette as a sport be morally fine as long as the particpants knew the rules of the game and what was going to happen?

I'm not saying that poker is morally wrong, but I'm saying that there is an ethical issue there and an argument can be made that it is wrong. Personally I'm just screwing around but it would be nice to be able to address the issue if someone asked it in earnest.

As for the Brunson cancer spontaneous remission. I would suggest that his personal faith more than his wife's prayers were responsible for it, but that doesn't make it any less remarkable. There is no doubt that having a strong faith that one will get better or *can* get better from an illness has a very powerful effect, whether that is due to faith in God healing you or something else. Psychoneuroimmunology is an increasingly important branch of health science and studies the relationship between psychological factors and the brain / immune system. How we think and feel affects our physical well being and our immune system. The scientific literature is clear that religious beliefs have a positive effect on our well being.

Now we all know that people play better poker when they are feeling good psycholgically and physically so I think it is entirely possible that when controlled for other factors poker players with religious beliefs which impact on their coping styles experience less negative periods at the table which are due to their state of being.