Enda Kenny on Immigration - honest debate or oppotunist sh1t stirring?

mike65

Okay crash helmets on everyone!

Whats Enda Kenny at with his comments regarding immigration which he managed to link with crime and notions of Catholicism and Christianity.

Saying Ireland was a "Celtic and Christian country", he said the rate of immigration had caused the greatest economic and social transformation since independence.

Immigrants had both rights and responsibilities, and "immigration must be managed in a way that keeps Ireland safe."

Mr Kenny said that while immigrants had the right to be free of discrimination and to have their contribution recognised, "they have the responsibility to integrate into our community, comply with our laws and respect our cultural traditions".

Ireland is the country its inhabitants make it, its not innatly Catholic or Christian.

Has Kenny reckoned that he can raise the issue of 'dem foreigners' while haveing his cake and eating it? - "hey we only want the best for all and need a debate" (which we do) while suggesting to those who are not well disposed to the new-look Ireland "hey I'm on your side really, I'll tighten things up and see we remain Holy Catholic Ireland" Nod, wink etc.

If Kenny wants a proper debate on where society is and should be headed to head-off strife in the future then he should say so and that alone, crow-baring in Crime and Culture in the same speech was cackhanded to say the least.

Mike.

lostexpectation

im really surprised at him using the words christian and celtic?
he did in the bit of speech where he talks about welcoming people and or past experiences of need to emigrate, hmm so was the mention of catholic ethos about how charitable we try to be or wink to the certain section of people.

Enda Kenny problem has a bulgarian women as housemaid washing his undies and then he go out and blame all of societies ills on immigrants, we're full he'll say.

Zombrex

Ummm ... being an atheists I really don't like people constantly calling Ireland a "Christian" country. Ireland is a secular country, at least in the later years of the State, and more the better for it. I'm all for people defending the secular nature of the state, but defending the "Christian" nature of the state is just stupid.

is_that_so

The Celtic, Christian thing is for the large number of people out there who still like that idea. It also does well on the hustings. He's just preaching to the choir but a choir that will probably get out and vote.

As regards the immigration, well he does need to start taking "opportunities" to say things as he's done feck all in the last year or so to convince anyone that the alternative government is alive. It is to be expected tbh in an election year. I can see where he's coming from.

Irish society needs everyone to get involved. IMO integration is important all round and benefits all of us and I have to say I also agree with his assertion that it does need to be managed for all concerned.

Sponge Bob

atheists do not vote, they are too busy watching pr0n to 'come out' on election day

Time Magazine

Wicknight wrote:

Ummm ... being an atheists I really don't like people constantly calling Ireland a "Christian" country. Ireland is a secular country

Ridiculous. The figure in my head is that 73% of us attending Maas at least once last year.

We are not secular. Our primary school teachers are the main organisers of confessional, eucharistic and confirmation sacrament events. And there'd be uproar if the parents had to do it themselves.

But we're not a Christian state insofar as we do not impose Canon Law on anyone. Nor are we secular, the ridiculous concept where a Christian school may not facilitate prayer meetings. We're a pluralist society where all faiths are tolerated and accepted.

Our society is inherently Christian-based, whether it's faith-based or not. Bigamy is illegal; blasphemy is specifically noted in the Constitution; Saint Vincent de Paul is an organisation we help and support because we agree with its moral character.


As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed; if only to quell the uproar of the gobsh*tes who are spreading mis-information. I'd have much rathered had the government raised the debate to hear what the public thought; but it appears they weren't willing to do that.

Enda Kenny's not sh*t-stirring or using rhetoric when he called for a fair debate. I personally have been the recipient of crime committed by an immigrant; it's time to quantify the negative elements now that we know the postives, and these negative elements do exist - there's little doubt they're pushing up house prices, for example.

ballooba

lostexpectation wrote:

im really surprised at him using the words christian and celtic?
he did in the bit of speech where he talks about welcoming people and or past experiences of need to emigrate, hmm so was the mention of catholic ethos about how charitable we try to be or wink to the certain section of people.

Enda Kenny problem has a bulgarian women as housemaid washing his undies and then he go out and blame all of societies ills on immigrants, we're full he'll say.

I'm not usually much of a spelling & grammar fascist, but this is illegible. How are people supposed to know what you are trying to say unless you use something resembling proper english.

ballooba

If this thread had been started by someone else then I might think that it was deliberately misleading. Given that it was started by Mike65, I know that not to be the case. In my experience he is not the type of person to deliberately misrepresent what someone would say.

What I will say to people is that I suggest you read this speech in full (here) and form your own opinions. Don't rely on the juicy titbits taken from it by FF/PD supporters and newspapers. The following is the sentence where Enda mentioned a "Celtic and Christian" people, I'll wager it's the first time most of you have seen this.

Enda Kenny wrote:

As a Celtic and Christian people, we understand better than most the special challenges of immigration and integrating new communities. Now is time for a real national debate on these issues so that we can make the necessary changes to meet these new challenges. We have a chance to get this response right and to avoid the mistakes that were made elsewhere.

I believe the reference to a Celtic and Christian people was intended to represent the values that we draw from those influences. Celts are traditionally a travelling people and also a very welcoming people. I remember speaking to some Breton friends about this over the summer and the similarity between our two cultures. I don't think Enda Kenny is calling for a Celtic and Christian super-race or anything like that.

Terry

ballooba wrote:

If this thread had been started by someone else then I might think that it was deliberately misleading. Given that it was started by Mike65, I know that not to be the case. In my experience he is not the type of person to deliberately misrepresent what someone would say.

What I will say to people is that I suggest you read this speech in full (here) and form your own opinions. Don't rely on the juicy titbits taken from it by FF/PD supporters and newspapers. The following is the sentence where Enda mentioned a "Celtic and Christian" people, I'll wager it's the first time most of you have seen this.



I believe the reference to a Celtic and Christian people was intended to represent the values that we draw from those influences. Celts are traditionally a travelling people and also a very welcoming people. I remember speaking to some Breton friends about this over the summer and the similarity between our two cultures. I don't think Enda Kenny is calling for a Celtic and Christian super-race or anything like that.

nice one, Ballooba. I was just about to point that out.
just like Ibid said,

As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed; if only to quell the uproar of the gobsh*tes who are spreading mis-information.

like those papers deliberately misquoting politicians in order to create controversy where there is none.

mike65

ballooba! Is it not possible to sh1t-stir on this board anymore?

As a Celtic and Christian people, we understand better than most the special challenges of immigration and integrating new communities

BTW the above still does'nt actualy make much sense in the context of an immigration debate. Whats being C&C got to do with it? Or am I missing something fundemental in the Irish psyche?

Mike.

Terry

yes, you are.
like it or not, the majority of Irish people still consider themselves to be christian.
we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.
while the numbers going to mass may have dwindled, all you need to do is look around you and think about all your friends who have had children or been married. then tot up how many were married in a church and how many had their children christened.
it may happen through tradition and/ or superstition, but these people still consider themselves christian, thus making Ireland a predominantly christian country.
either way, Enda kenny is right. (Labour supporter for the record)

Zombrex

Ibid wrote:

We are not secular.

Groan .. people never understand what I mean when I say that.

Being a secular state does not mean that everyone is non-religious. It means that everyone is free to practice any religion they wish. The State is non-religion.

You know a country like Saudi-Arabia, that is an example of a non-secular state. The chosen religion of the state (ie Islam) influences the government and the law.

Ibid wrote:

Our primary school teachers are the main organisers of confessional, eucharistic and confirmation sacrament events.

There is not a single child in a public school who is required to attend Catholic confessional or confirmation. This is a voluntary service provided by the school. You can also get help with other non-Christian religious festivals (assuming the school has the staff versed in the religion).

Ibid wrote:

We're a pluralist society where all faiths are tolerated and accepted.

Pluralism is not mutually exclusive of secularism.

Secularism means that the organisation of the state is seperate from any particular religious group. Yes we have Catholic public schools. But we also have Protestant, Muslim and non-religious public schools.

Ibid wrote:

Our society is inherently Christian-based, whether it's faith-based or not.

What is a non-faith based Christian society?

Ibid wrote:

As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed;

It seems all we do is debate immigration these days.

Ibid wrote:

Enda Kenny's not sh*t-stirring or using rhetoric when he called for a fair debate.

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state, as if that actually meant something in this day and age. I don't agree with ballooba interpretation that this was meant as some kind of call on our values of tolerance. As Mike points out that would be a rather bizarre analogy.

Ibid wrote:

there's little doubt they're pushing up house prices, for example.

But so are people from Mayo. The point is is that justification to stop people coming to Dublin, either from Poland or from Mayo.

Zombrex

julep wrote:

we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.

Rules what exactly....?

This is what makes secularists like myself uneasy about comments like "we are a Christian country" What does that actually mean?

Is it simply a statistic or is it an attempt to link Christianity with what is means to be "Irish" If it is the later then that is particularly worrying, especially when used in the context of a debate on immigration of people who may not be Christian.

is_that_so

Wicknight wrote:

Rules what exactly....?

This is what makes secularists like myself uneasy about comments like "we are a Christian country" What does that actually mean?

Having now read all the text I will say I couldn't even find the reference the first time I looked as there was far more important information in the text.

He didn't actually address that Christian reference to the country , he referred to the people , many of whom these days are neither Christian nor Celtic. Statistically however, he is correct.

But he is a politician and politicians pick speeches to suit the occasion.
He was addressing his own party and the line fits well with the speech and the audience.

It is of more concern to me that all that has been pulled out out of a fairly lengthy speech on Fine Gael policy is four words. TBH I really don't see the big deal. I am certainly not going to base my voting intentions on a couple of words.
If it is so offensive then people can make that known in the ballot box.

Of far greater importance IMO is the rest of the speech which tells us what they would do in government, which there has been very little comment on so far.

magick

like it or not, the majority of Irish people still consider themselves to be christian.
we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.

Exactly.

When in Rome...........

otherwise if you dont conform to this country get out.
Dont get me wrong , but we sound follow the American model,muli racial society but not multi cultural.

This is just like the pancakes, now ppl want to put all sorts of crap on them, lemon juice or sugar the way its ment to be, anything else is weird and against Ireland.

In other words dont f**k with the pancakes.

oscarBravo

Wicknight wrote:

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state...

...except that it's already been pointed out that he didn't say that. If you're going to get upset about what Enda said, it's a good idea to make sure he said it first.

purple'n'gold

I don’t know what all the excitement is about really. At the end of the day, Ireland has a small open economy, totally at the mercy of global economics. Ok, some people are doing well at the moment mostly on borrowed money, but when the economy falters, and it will,( manufacturing jobs are disappearing very fast). Jobs will become scarce again and multiculturalism will disappear as immigrants become emigrants. We will then revert back to more or less what we were. Celtic, but a lot less Christian.

simu

We used to speak a Celtic language and some of us still do but the idea of the Irish being a Celtic race or people doesn't hold water. But Enda's not trying to appeal to pedants like me, I guess!

purple'n'gold

simu wrote:

We used to speak a Celtic language and some of us still do but the idea of the Irish being a Celtic race or people doesn't hold water. But Enda's not trying to appeal to pedants like me, I guess!

We like to say we’re Celtic; it has a nice ring to it. Actually we are part Celt, part Viking ,part Norman, part Anglo Saxon.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state, as if that actually meant something in this day and age. I don't agree with ballooba interpretation that this was meant as some kind of call on our values of tolerance. As Mike points out that would be a rather bizarre analogy.

Judging on your comments it would appear that you still haven't read the speech. As such, it would be debatable what merit your comments have. Why can't you just read the speech?

If indeed you have read the speech, I cannot see how the sentence containing those two words could be interpreted in any other way.

mike65

Brendan Keenan just gave the speech a lash on Radio 1s Rodney Rice programme. He noted how such talk excluded Northern Irish Protestants, while Joan Burton noted the Vietnamese who were invited in etc.

Mike.

InFront

I don't have a problem with the words of the speech, sentance by sentance they are fine. In fact the idea of a Christian and Celtic country opening up to new influences and ethic identities is particularly welcome from any public representative.

The "we" he speaks of when referring to a Celtic and Christian people are those of whom, he says would "have to have a very small mind, a very short memory and a very hard heart, not to welcome the stranger, who is trying to make a better life".
That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and quite a nice gesture if you ask me. Quite the opposite to what the original article suggests, it is a very welcoming, openminded comment.

While he claims that the system is failing Irish citizens, he places equal emphasis on how the system is failing immigrants. He mentions additional educational resources for children without English as their first language, and indeed adult literacy amongst immigrants.
He also speaks of "rigorous enforcement of the employment protection laws and serious penalties for any employers who attempt to exploit immigrant workers through low pay or unfair conditions."

I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with this speech at all. The article that features it, of course, is quite sneaky and underhand in its portrayal of what Kenny actually said.

magick wrote:

if you dont conform to this country get out.

That depends on how you define conformity. Conformity in this context could be anything from being a mass going whiteskinned lady with a job in the local Spar to a law-abiding Kenyan with a poor grasp of the English language, zero appreciation for traditional Irish culture and a job in the local spar.

Conformity in terms of obeying the law, yes. Conformity in any other way, probably not.

walrusgumble

would any of ye expect muslim females to take off their head gear in public places eg schools if they are happy to continue their traditons? france and britain tried it i think. conformity is sufficent so long as everyone abides by the law. we hope immigrants intergrate into society but we should respect their traditions and ways of doing things, all we can do is encourage them to intergrate, not force them.

MadsL

Enda clearly never read the reports on the research.

“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1247765,00.html

MontgomeryClift

This is gas. You can talk about anything you want these days except the biggest social change to occur here since the plantation. People get all confused and emotional and Irish Timesish, asking 'Should he be mentioning this at all?'

purple'n'gold

MontgomeryClift wrote:

This is gas. You can talk about anything you want these days except the biggest social change to occur here since the plantation. People get all confused and emotional and Irish Timesish, asking 'Should he be mentioning this at all?'

You need not worry, after the economic downturn which is just around the corner, we will revert to white old Ireland again fairly rapidly.

antSionnach

purplengold wrote:

the economic downturn which is just around the corner

I didn't get that memo...

SeanW

Where did the OP get his info? If it was the Indo I imagine that they slanted the story to make Enda K. look like a racist parochial prat. That rag is only good for birdcage lining.

I agree with the idea of a proper debate about immigration, and the questions such a large influx of people from all corners raises.

But the problem is that such debates usually centre around idiotic extremists like Stormfront Ireland and Residents Against Racism types.

mike65

It proberly was the indo *for shame *, but he did mention those two traits.

Mike.

The_Minister

I think that people are uneasy with Ireland being described in the terms of "Celtic and Christian people", because thats the qualities that Stormfronters are always trumpeting. Its like the swaztika (sp?), it could mean something good, but normally doesn't. Add that to the fact that Enda was recorded telling a joke with the word "******" about a year ago, and people could get suspicious.

In the speech he refers to controlling immigration, and creating a special ministry for "immigration affairs". He make comments about tying the number of non-EU immegrants (i.e. blacks) to economic nessecity, rather than the sympathetic approach that is taken now. He wants to cherry-pick the most well-trained non-Eu's and slash the number coming to Ireland.
His comments on adult literacy programs consisting of 1/3 immegrants, seems to suggest a "they took our course" mentality. The courses tend to achieve much the same goal as each other, and tend to be effective in helping immegrants improve their english to an acceptable degree (do not forget that the vast majority of immegrants speak at least some English).
He seems to imply a high-correlation between foreigners and road-crashes.

I don't think that he was being overtly racist, (the above is to show that it could be interpreted like that, without just looking for trouble) but there are elements of his speech that are deseigned to push racist buttons; cutting down on the number of "non-Eu" immigrants (effectively blacks), they crash our cars, they divert welfare from the real Irish (the literacy courses), and of course, that we are a Celtic and Christian people. The bit about being White silently sounds in the minds of anti-immegrants when they hear that.
Kenny is courting xenophobes, quietly, and softly.

purple'n'gold

I think that people are uneasy with Ireland being described in the terms of "Celtic and Christian people",

I don’t think that the majority of Irish people are uneasy with that at all. After all, that’s what we(the vast majority) bascially are.

ballooba

The_Minister wrote:

Kenny is courting xenophobes, quietly, and softly.

You may be able to interpret it that way if you misconstrue what he's saying. But you will be sorely disappointed if you expect Enda to take that line as Taoiseach.

ballooba

Seeing as some people seem unable to click the link and read the speech, I have pasted it below:

Speech by Fine Gael Leader, Enda Kenny TD at special meeting of the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party and Dáil Candidates, Clontarf Castle, 23rd January 2007

1. Introduction
The recent, dramatic growth in the rate of immigration into Ireland is resulting in what is arguably the greatest economic and social transformation of our country since independence.

I believe that this transformation presents Ireland with both a huge challenge and huge opportunity. Given Ireland's history of emigration, the country has a special responsibility to address the challenge of immigration.

I believe that immigration can be excellent for Ireland's future. But the thing is we must get it right.

We live in a country that exported our people.... not by the boatload..... or by the planeload...... but by the generation.

We live in a country where hundreds of thousands of families lived for the postal order that put food on the table and clothes on their backs... thanks to a father and often his sons... slaving on the building sites of London and New York and San Francisco.

So, it's safe to say, that we live in a country where you'd have to have a very small mind, a very short memory and a very hard heart, not to welcome the stranger, who is trying to make a better life, a more hopeful life for themselves and their families.

As a Celtic and Christian people, we understand better than most the special challenges of immigration and integrating new communities. Now is time for a real national debate on these issues so that we can make the necessary changes to meet these new challenges. We have a chance to get this response right and to avoid the mistakes that were made elsewhere.

I believe that immigration and multi-culturalism can be good for Ireland but the current system is not being managed well. We need as system that is good for the Irish and good for the immigrants. As of now, we have a system that is not serving the interests of either.

2. Principles of Fine Gael's approach.

Fine Gael has three priorities to make immigration work for Ireland:

1. Immigrants have rights and responsibilities. They should have the right to be free of discrimination and have their contribution to the country recognised, but they have the responsibility to integrate into our community, comply with our laws and respect our cultural traditions. I do not want to see a situation developing in which our immigrant population live separate lives. We have a responsibility to facilitate and encourage this integration.
2. Immigration must be managed in a way that keeps Ireland safe. We must ensure that Irish laws are understood by and adhered to by immigrants. We also need to send a strong message that people who want to come to this country to commit serious crime are not welcome and will be dealt with severely.
3. Immigration must be a force for improving, not threatening living standards. We must protect Irish jobs and the rights of those who come to work here. Companies that pay below the minimum wage should pay severe fines, and immigration levels from non-EU countries must be explicitly linked to economic conditions and the needs of the labour market.

3. Analysis of current situation

The growth in the non-national population in recent years has been phenomenal, particularly since EU enlargement in 2004. Prior to then, much of the growth comprised of Irish emigrants returning home but since then the pattern has changed dramatically.

It now stands at over 400,000, or one tenth of the total population. In the last year alone, over 200,000 new PPS numbers were issued to foreign nationals registering to work or to access social services.

The Government's response to the challenge of immigration has been weak and fragmented. There are a whole myriad of government departments and state agencies responsible for different aspects of immigration and the asylum processes. Each of these bodies is fulfilling a role but no-one is taking overall responsibility for managing the issue. While the establishment of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) was a small step in the right direction, much more needs to be done to bring clarity and coherence to the government's approach.

4. Suggested structural changes

As a first step, I want the review of the INIS which is due in March, to be a fundamental re-appraisal of the way in which these services are organised and delivered with the objective of creating a streamlined system which will manage and oversee the entire immigration process, rather than just providing services.

The fragmented system is replicated at political level with various ministers having responsibility for different aspects of the issue. If I am elected to Government, I intend to bring coherence to the political response by appointing a Minister of State for Immigrant Affairs who will be attached to the Department of the Taoiseach. This new ministerial role will include responsibility across all relevant government departments. This Minister will lead a high level group which will manage and coordinate the government's activities that relate to immigration and ensure that its impact on public services and on the labour market is monitored continuously.

5. Specific pressures that have arisen.

I want to refer briefly to some specific areas where the rapid growth in immigration has led to pressures and to suggest some practical solutions that are consistent with Fine Gael's principles.

Rights and Responsibilities

*Education
The right to education is a basic, and one of the most empowering, civil rights. A good education for every child is the key to achieving the kind of society in which each of us lives up to our rights and responsibilities.

The growth in multiculturalism within the education system comes at a time when the system is already under enhanced pressure, with significant expansion of pupil numbers being forecast. The Department of Education's figures show that, over the next five years, we will need an extra 2,300 classrooms to deal with the increase in the numbers attending primary school of at least 58,000. Clearly foreign-national children will only be part of this number, but this does give a sense of the expansion that will be needed if the education system is to cope with future demand. It is currently estimated that there are 31,000 foreign national children in the primary school system alone.

As things stand, there are many teachers, particularly in large urban centres, whose classes include significant numbers of children with language difficulties. The current system for allocating language support teachers is not serving the interests of these children. It provides that schools with 14 non-English speaking pupils are awarded one language support and those with 28 or more receive a second but a third post can only be granted in exceptional services. These rules take no account of the reality of the new situation in which many schools have far more than 28 non-English speaking pupils. I am aware of one school in west Dublin which has over 200 non-national pupils but just two language support teachers, plus one additional, discretionary teacher. Even where adequate support is available, it is only available to each child for two years which is not enough in many cases.

This system is not serving the interests of either our immigrants or our own population and must be changed. Although the current Government has belatedly promised to recruit more language teachers, these outdated rules have not yet been changed. As a first step, the allocation of language support resources must be revamped so that schools with higher demands receive appropriate support. We must also undertake a national audit to find out the true extent of this problem and to establish whether other measures, such as providing additional language support outside normal school hours, are needed and what additional teaching resources are required.

Tackling deficiencies in adult literacy is a key challenge for the education system. Ten years ago, it was estimated that over half a million Irish adults needed help but just 35,500 people have benefited from adult literacy programmes since then. There is evidence that over a quarter of those who have undertaken these courses were from non-English speaking backgrounds in order to improve their knowledge of English. These programmes were not designed as language classes and should be targeted at people with literacy problems, rather than those with fluency problems. We need to develop dedicated English language classes for adult immigrants that are focussed on their needs.

Keeping Ireland Safe

*Crime
Yesterday we saw the latest crime figures which revealed a shocking increase in the rate of serious crime, including the highest number of murders in the history of the state.

There is no doubt that immigration is having an impact on crime rates. For example, 22% of those sent to Irish prisons in 2005 were from outside the European Union. There is also evidence that a number of foreign crime gangs are operating in Dublin, many of them behaving like "mafia" style organisations.

We need a much more rigorous screening of those applying to come here from outside the European Union to establish if they have criminal records. We should refuse entry to those who have been involved in serious criminal activity. In addition, I believe that those who are convicted of serious offences and sentenced to 5 or more years imprisonment by the Irish Courts should be deported automatically after they have served their sentences. This would send a strong message that people who want to commit serious crime are not welcome in this country and will be dealt with severely.

*Road Safety
The ongoing carnage on our roads has been a scourge on our community since long before immigration became an issue. While many positive steps are being taken by the authorities to promote road safety, more needs to be done to integrate the non-national community into this new approach.

This is important because a worryingly high number of road accidents involve non-national drivers. For example 44 of the road fatalities in 2006 were people born outside the country. Anyone who has had family members living abroad will relate to the distressing images of families arriving here to collect the bodies of their loved-ones who have lost their lives on the Irish roads.

Many of our new population have come from countries where the driving systems are very different to Ireland's. I believe that they have a responsibility to learn about and comply with our road safety regime and we have a responsibility to facilitate that and enforce compliance. There are a number of obstacles to achieving this. At a most basic level, for example, is the astounding fact that the full Rules of the Road handbook has not been updated for over 10 years and that it is yet to be made available in other languages. This basic information gap should be rectified as a mater of urgency.

I am also concerned that the current rules governing the re-registration of imported vehicles allow the owners of such vehicles to avoid re-registering them for up to two years. As a result, vehicles are not becoming part of the Irish system and their owners can avoid having their road worthiness tested. As well as exploring ways of addressing this loophole, we must ensure that the Gardai use their powers to impound vehicles that they deem to be unsafe.

One of the cornerstones in the battle to reduce road fatalities is the introduction and enforcement of the penalty points system. However, as migrants from other EU countries are not required to transfer their driving licences, penalty points cannot be applied to their licences. I was shocked recently to be informed that 20% of the penalty points which should have resulted from offences detected by the Gardaí could not be applied, in many cases because of this loophole. This is not fair to the Irish licence holders who cannot evade penalty points in this way. It also means that the deterrent effect of the penalty points system is not applying to a proportion of the driving population.

In government, I will pursue this matter with our EU partners to find a mechanism to close this loophole and ensure that penalty points can be effectively applied in a way that respects the right to free movement of our immigrant population.

Linking Immigration to Economic Conditions

*Economy / Labour market
The growth in immigration has been an essential component of Ireland's economic success. In fact, it has had a direct impact on our economic growth with the ERSI estimating that immigration added at least 3% to GNP growth over the period 1993 to 2003.

Ireland has been fortunate that the education levels of immigrants to date has been very high. For example, over half of the immigrants to this country have third level qualifications compared to just over a quarter of the native population.

The impact of immigration on the labour market must be monitored closely and there must be rigorous enforcement of the employment protection laws and serious penalties for any employers who attempt to exploit immigrant workers through low pay or unfair conditions. Pat Rabbitte was right to raise this issue and the need for vigilance.

Since EU enlargement there has been a big increase in the numbers coming here from the new member states and a big fall in the number of work permits being issued to people from non-EU countries.

Most skills needs in the economy can be met from within the European Union, particularly in the low-skilled area. I believe that we should cut back on the number of low-skilled work permits granted to non- EU citizens and use this system to make Ireland the destination of choice for highly skilled migrants. To achieve this, we should introduce a Green Card system for those with advanced science and engineering skills; people with a track record of entrepreneurial success: those with company specific skills linked with inward direct investment; and people with the specific knowledge and skills required by Irish exporters.

There are now at least 50,000 Chinese language students in Ireland, most of whom are highly educated and come from a prosperous and fast developing region of China. Rather than viewing these people as a sources of cheap labour or as a market opportunity for the language schools, we should engage closely with the large Chinese community to develop links with the fast growing economies of China and the wider Asian markets.

Conclusion
I am raising these issues now because I believe that the challenge of immigration is not being addressed by the political system. My objective is to ensure that immigration remains a positive experience for our society and our economy. To achieve this we must have the courage to debate the issue openly and honestly. This time of prosperity is the appropriate time to do so and to make the policy changes needed to deliver a coherent, coordinated system that works in the best interests of everybody living in Ireland.

InFront

I honestly don't think it matters balooba. Some people will automatically read into that speech what they would like it to read.

Originally posted by The Minister
In the speech he refers to controlling immigration, and creating a special ministry for "immigration affairs". He make comments about tying the number of non-EU immegrants (i.e. blacks) to economic nessecity, rather than the sympathetic approach that is taken now. He wants to cherry-pick the most well-trained non-Eu's and slash the number coming to Ireland.

I don't really understand, why someone would have a problem with that? What's the problem? Don't you want to attract well educated immigrants too?

Since when do non-EU immigrants = blacks? When did Russia and China and South Asia and the Middle East join the EU?

Originally posted by The Minister
His comments on adult literacy programs consisting of 1/3 immegrants, seems to suggest a "they took our course" mentality.

Or just maybe... a "many of them need education resources" mentality?

InFront

The_Minister wrote:

The bit about being White silently sounds in the minds of anti-immegrants when they hear that.

What bit about being white?

ballooba

InFront wrote:

I don't really understand, why someone would have a problem with that? What's the problem? Don't you want to attract well educated immigrants too?

Also, it's normal policy in countries like Australia, Canada and the US.

The_Minister

InFront wrote:

What bit about being white?

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. If you ask a Stormfronter to describe the Irish, they say "Celtic and Christian and White", its even a slogan of one of their groups. I meant that when you look at the entire speech, it seems obvious that he is going for the racist vote. If you take the speech up front, as completely honest, with no spin, then I agree with it (I'm actually for quite a few of the measures that he proposes). But, I think that he has managed to touch on every Stormfront issue in one speech, from the whole car crash thing, to "they took our jobs!".
Maybe, I am cynical, and reading too much into this, but this speech just reads like the speech that you would write if you wanted to court racists without loosing the centre.
It's a pity that this came in the week when Fine Gael had done something to really impress me.

magick

I am cynical, and reading too much into this

yes


yes you are........

SeanW

I liked what I read - it didn't look like Enda K. was sh1t stirring at all, quite the opposite, it looked like he was genuinely examining the practical issues with immigration and lack of adequate response in language training, law and order, employment standards. I thought it was a very good point he made about the Rules Of the Road being over 10 years old and not translated, and the loopholes in the laws relating to drivers licenses, penalty points etc.

He has a point on all of it because if you listen to the real crap-stirrers and racists their complaints are all "they don't respect the rules of the road" "they can't speak English" "they're here to take our jobs" and so on. Most of this nonsense can be dispelled with proper governmental policy on immigration that limits the flow to what the economy can handle, but gives those immigrants full legal protection and good employment standards, applies penalty points to all EU licenses, and places more burden on immigrants to integrate while giving them all the information and education they need to do so.

Bravo to Mr. Kenny for telling it like it is. Fixing all this, won't happen overnight. But, on this issue like many others, the alternative coalition gives me the impression that they're serious about doing the business.

ballooba

SeanW wrote:

Bravo to Mr. Kenny for telling it like it is. Fixing all this, won't happen overnight. But, on this issue like many others, the alternative coalition gives me the impression that they're serious about doing the business.

I take it you'll be voting Rainbow now.

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

Judging on your comments it would appear that you still haven't read the speech.

Excuse me I did read it, and as your post shows he did say that.

He is linking "Celtic" and "Christian" with "Irish". WE are a Celtic and Christian people. Who is "we" exactly. Was Enda's speech not for any of the Irish who are black, hispanic Asian, Muslim, Jewish (of course not, they aren't really that Irish are they? I mean, they just kinda live here. But that isn't who "we" are)

This idea simply feeds the idea that non-celtic, non-Christian people are simply not Irish. They are not part of what it is to be Irish.

It is the sub-conscious drawing of the line in the sand that happens every day to a black or Asian Irish person (which many would consider an oxymoron)

They live here. They work here. They were born here. They grew up here. But they aren't "us"

We must intergrate them, we must learn to live along side them, everything is good. But they aren't "us"

To a black kid of African descent who was born here and considers himself as "Irish" as everyone else this patronising way of viewing people different to the classical view of "Irish" is the underlining problem.

I would imagine that most people reading this will probably have no idea what I'm talking about, because this attitude is so entrenched in societies sub-conscious ideas of what is Irish. "But we are all celtic and christian, that is what "irish" is, majority rules, so whats the problem? If they don't like it they can leave."

oscarBravo

Wicknight, I'd venture to suggest that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Is it absolutely necessary to shoot down every vague generalisation by pointing out the exception, even when the generalisation is made in the context of promoting inclusion?

For example: if I were to describe Ireland as an English-speaking country, would you splutter indignantly that I'm discriminating against those for whom it's not their first language? If I describe it as a rainy country, would you feel the need to point out that it was sunny a couple of days last week?

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

Excuse me I did read it, and as your post shows he did say that.

So you are still maintaining that Enda called Ireland a "Celtic Christian State"?!?

Wicknight wrote:

He is linking "Celtic" and "Christian" with "Irish". WE are a Celtic and Christian people. Who is "we" exactly. Was Enda's speech not for any of the Irish who are black, hispanic Asian, Muslim, Jewish (of course not, they aren't really that Irish are they? I mean, they just kinda live here. But that isn't who "we" are)

Would those people be immigrants? Or are they "Native Irish"? Do you think they would like to cut themselves off completely from the native culture of the home of their parents and grandparents?

How do the classifications on the page linked below sit with you? Note the people who have classified themselves as Irish English, Irish-American, Irish-European, Irish-Other. Why didn't these people just tick the box that said Irish?
http://www.census.ie/statistics/persclassbynationality2002.htm

Zombrex

oscarBravo wrote:

Wicknight, I'd venture to suggest that you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Is it absolutely necessary to shoot down every vague generalisation by pointing out the exception, even when the generalisation is made in the context of promoting inclusion?

It is when you are talking about the attitudes of the Irish to what we consider to be "Irish"

You don't have to go very far on this forum to find posters who would actually state that being "Irish" does mean coming from Celtic Christian roots.

I'm not saying Enda is a raving racist. I understand that his speech was in good faith. But it is yet another example of this underlying sub-conscious idea in the society as a whole about what is actually Irish.

This has been a problem for the entire debate on immigration since the 90s. It is nearly always phrased in a "them and us" manner, even when people have good intentions.

You cannot tackle the issue of multiculturalism when the underlying attitude facing people from different roots and backgrounds than the traditional "Celtic/Christian" is that they aren't really "Irish"

oscarBravo wrote:

For example: if I were to describe Ireland as an English-speaking country, would you splutter indignantly that I'm discriminating against those for whom it's not their first language?

Well as you yourself pointed out to me he didn't describe the country, he describe the people.

If I said, "we are an English speaking people" would you not infer from that that I did not consider those who did not actually speak English to be the people I was addressing?

I find it rather ironic that people were giving out to me for misquoting Enda and pointing out that he actually said "people" not country when in fact the choice of the word "people" emphasises my point a lot more than the word "country".

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

So you are still maintaining that Enda called Ireland a "Celtic Christian State"?!?

No, I happily take that back. What he actually said was much worse

ballooba wrote:

Would those people be immigrants? Or are they "Native Irish"?

Thank you for proving my point ballooba :rolleyes:

ballooba wrote:

Why didn't these people just tick the box that said Irish?

I would imagine because they have joint nationality. You will notice that all these people are still counted under "Irish".

Tea drinker

Hi Wicknight
I think Kenny's "post" is an honest attempt to look at immigration in an open fashion.
I think that we need to be open to deal with issues like Kenny has raised. Otherwise, we would resemble the dreaded storm fronters.
If we walk around on eggshells constantly we are making a BIG, politically correct lie.

I THINK Irish people will have (and are entitled to) an underlying subconcious notion of what the vague "nationhood" / Irish people "thing" is. Many of these will differ significantly. Many will contain something of a religous nature, many will have diddly di i in there.
Why is this vague and differing notion of Irishness a problem?
To whom is it a problem?
Is some of the problem because it differs from your notion? We are all entitled to our opinion:) ...as are you.

When I say we, I mean all the catholic, Aetheist, was catholic and is now Aetheist, Catholic when drunk, Muslim when sober, Old protestand stock, New protestants, bad BMW mechanics/tyre fitters. Young people, old people shy and outgoing people, moneygrabbers, donors.
I'm tired!.
Wow look at all the people I left out!!!!!!!!
Please note this post is ONLY wrote in English. As such it is only directed at english speakers. Which makes me a bad man?

Tea drinker

From kenny's speech:

ballooba wrote:

and to avoid the mistakes that were made elsewhere..

Does anyone have clarification on what the mistakes were? He would surely have this info to hand, to back up the statement

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

Thank you for proving my point ballooba :rolleyes:

Questions don't prove a point, and you didn't answer them.

ballooba

Tea drinker wrote:

Does anyone have clarification on what the mistakes were? He would surely have this info to hand, to back up the statement

France would an obvious example, including the 2005 riots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_riots

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

Questions don't prove a point, and you didn't answer them.

You presume with your question that these non-celtic, non-christian, people aren't "Irish", that they have some other "native culture" somewhere else to hang on to. You then ask do I not think they would want to hang on to that?

Not only is this an assumption that these people aren't from "Irish" culture, but also that they might not actually wish to be from Irish culture.

As I said, thank you for proving my point.

Zombrex

Tea drinker wrote:

I THINK Irish people will have (and are entitled to) an underlying subconcious notion of what the vague "nationhood" / Irish people "thing" is.

"Celtic and Christian" isn't particularly "vague" Tea Drinker

Tea drinker wrote:

Wow look at all the people I left out!!!!!!!!
Please note this post is ONLY wrote in English. As such it is only directed at english speakers. Which makes me a bad man?

The fact that you are trying to classify it is the problem Tea Drinker.

Surely an Irish person, from the point of view of personal identity (rather than legally), is anyone who thinks of themselves as Irish. If we start of defining what "Irish" is then we start off defining what it isn't. For a speech that was supposed to deal with inclusion starting off with a statement that excludes a large number of people who consider themselves "Irish" seems a little counter productive. But it does, accidentally, highlight this issue.