Basic Chemistry..Why amino acids are stable in water!!!

hardtrainer

There has been a lot of misinformation about protein denaturation, amino acid degradation and so, with particular reference to some magic 20 min rule in consumption of whey protein shakes. Most of it is akin to the kinds of rumours and myths that we have no doubt all seen from that spectacularly stupid article on the creo-munchers in the health supp. of the IT this week.

Some folks here should know all of this already, coming from a science background like myself. Amino acids are stable biological chemicals. Simple. They are complex molecules held together by strong bonds. They can be broken down, thats true, but with the aid of a) enzymes or b) chemicals. Water/milk/juice will not damage any amino acid.

Amino acids are either hydrphobic or hydrophillic, but this doesn't make them any less stable in water, this just affects the likely position of these amino acids within a polypeptide (protein).

Whey proteins are no different to other proteins. They are marginally less tolerant of high temperatures (above 75ºC) than casein, but they are remarkably more heat tolerant than many other proteins, including collagen. So, what about the protein in our whey shakes. Simply put, regardless of what the manufacturer says on their website, the majority of whey isolates, concentrates and so on, comes as a by product of cheese manufacture. Now, the exact point during this process that the whey is sourced from varies and this variation affects both the quality of the protein (in terms of the proteins natural activity) and the cost.
There are a number of dairy research institutes (notably in the US and India) which have been pioneering dairy protein fractioning, lactoferrin, lactoperoxidase, whey isolates and so on, but the protein that we are mostly getting as our whey powder really does come from cheese production.

There are many buzz words; cold-filtered, reverse osmosis, ion exchange, hydrolysed, bio-available and so on. Simply put, the whey is separated, often very crudely, and is then purified to remove waste and any remaining carbohydrates. At this point, most of the whey protein has been denatured. That is to say that the secondary and tertiary structure of the proteins is destroyed. You are left with the perfectly intact, polypeptides, with the same sequence of amino acids as before. Now there is a problem. Hydrophillic vs hydrophobic amino acids. Since hydrophobic aa's are repelled by water, the polypeptides will form a random configuration, based mostly on the aversion to water that is exhibited by the hyrdophobic aa's. These conformations are not biologically active, they don't perform any function and they are not stable. This is seen as coagulation. The same process that causes the white of an egg, for example, to go solid when cooked.

When manufacturers talk of hydrolysed protein, they simple mean that the protein has been denatured by breaking the hydrogen bonds that stabilise the secondary structure. Why does this make protein more bioavailable? Well, simply put, native state proteins (with sec. and tert. structure intact) are greatly more resistand to enzymatic digestion, i.e. breakdown into amino acids, which are utilised by the body. This is not to say that it cannot be done, it is done, every time we eat raw protein sources, including all the cheek cells and cells lining the alimentary canal (the ones that get to our stomach anyway) that we digest every day. Peptases in the stomach break the peptide bonds, releasing the individual amino acids which the body can then use to build and repair muscle and also for use as energy and as components for hormones, or even as neurotransmitters (glutamate).

There you have it. Thats the basic biochemistry of amino acids and proteins, all that is relevant to the discussions about denaturation of proteins in whey shakes anyway. The idea that any amino acid breaks down spontaneously in water is untrue. They don't. Proteins can denature in water, many of them do, as the pH of water may not be optimal for them. This has no negative effects on their nutritional value, if anything it increases it by making it easier for your body to breakdown. Cooking protein (collagen in meat etc) helps to break down and denature the protein making it easier to digest. But then the acid in our stomach does a good job of that too, unless the protein has some particular resistance to it (like the coat proteins of many parasites, membrane proteins of bacteria etc).

So go ahead, knock yourselves out. Mix your protein with water, with milk, with juice, whatever you prefer. Wait an hour, wait two, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the nutritional value of the protein. The whey proteins you're drinking are no longer in any way biologically active anyway, they been heated, acid treated, purified, partially digested and spray dried already. Rehydrating them just makes them easier for you to ingest. Seriously, have you ever tried to eat a spoonful of protein powder? Go on, try it.

I hope this has cleared up, once and for all, the myths and magic 20 mins to consume rule, that get offered up as science on these forums.

davyjose

Water, Protein, shake, drink!!! There are a lot of nuances and complications to getting a really good body. Not to mention a lot of bloody hard work. The stability of amino acids in water doesn't need to be one more to the list, does it?

Guvnor

Excellent post hardtrainer! Good to see I am not the only who noticed all the 'internet gurus' misinformation on this forum, and not just on denaturation of protein I might add!

One other point - isolate is not better protein/whey merely one which spent more time being processed. Only the % of protein changes.

Expect to get some flax for your post mate. People don't like to be called up on their shortcomings!

Degsy

Just whatt i was saying,allbeit in a non-scientific,non hyperbolic way...

t-ha

Nice post mate, and just for the record (although I can't remember why) I have eaten a spoon (or possibly an entire scoop) of dry protein powder.

It can be done!

g'em

Guvnor wrote:

Excellent post hardtrainer! Good to see I am not the only who noticed all the 'internet gurus' misinformation on this forum, and not just on denaturation of protein I might add!

One other point - isolate is not better protein/whey merely one which spent more time being processed. Only the % of protein changes.

Expect to get some flax for your post mate. People don't like to be called up on their shortcomings!

I agree, it is a good post.

And yeah, sure there is a lot of misinformation on the forum, but for all the wrong information there's plenty more right information. Strange as it might seem, getting things wrong occasionally is one of the ways I learn things, and I'm sure it's the same for other people. I'm never going to get things right all the time, and frankly I doubt that either the OP or you do either. I hardly see making genuine mistakes a shortcoming though, and I certainly hope that most of the information that I, and oodles of other people here, post is of benefit to those who ask for it and those who read it. So why call names and call people who are taking time out of their day to help other people "internet gurus"?

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time.
-Lou Brock

Dragan

Guvnor wrote:

Excellent post hardtrainer! Good to see I am not the only who noticed all the 'internet gurus' misinformation on this forum, and not just on denaturation of protein I might add!

One other point - isolate is not better protein/whey merely one which spent more time being processed. Only the % of protein changes.

Expect to get some flax for your post mate. People don't like to be called up on their shortcomings!

Indeed, lots of information about amino acids in there. Stuff I didn't know at all to be honest. Actually, now that I think about it there is other stuff I don't know….hang on a second…..wait just a minute….there is actually LOADS of stuff that I don't know!

****! Who would have thought it.

I will simply point out that I am always learning but more importantly I am always becoming leaner, stronger….better. I am also always trying to help others and pass on new information in a way that is not condescending to the people I am passing it on too.

And Guvnor, I would simply ask that the next time you see something you consider "misinformation" to join in the thread? Generally speaking it will help the community a bit more than sitting there afterwards saying "well I knew it was wrong."

trollybus

From an outsiders point of view here I see alot of great of advice on here! Its refreshing to see people like G'em, Dragan, Jon, T-ha, DaveIrl, Degsy, iregk, Boru and Transform to name a few giving out honest heplful information. To make comments that people are "internet guru's" is down to pure jelously. These people are giving up their free time to help others, they are doing it for free and are giving very good advice.
Maybe you would be happy if they stopped giving advice, but its in their nature to help people. I have to say keep up the good work I am proud to see you helping as are the masses of people I am sure you have helped.
P.S. The ironic thing is the advice that started this rubbish, well the message was was correct, drink your shake sooner rather than later, even "hardtrainer" agreed with this.

yomchi

Expect to get some flax for your post mate

damn, I've over 1000 posts and no one ever gave me any free Flax...


Good insights there Hardtrainer.

Jon
(head Guru round these parts)

trollybus

Jon wrote:

damn, I've over 1000 posts and no one ever gave me any free Flax...


Good insights there Hardtrainer.

Jon
(head Guru round these parts)

Haven't you been listening, you misinformed the masses, You only get the free FLAX for good advice.

Dragan

Actually, while we are all hear, what are the chances of a manufacturer completely messing up a production run and destroying the whey?

I imagine that this is bound to happen at some point and the whey would be very much sub standard????

Didn't this happen with Ministry of Fitness or something, or were they just selling **** product?

hardtrainer

Firstly, I would like to point out that I didn't specifically mention anyone as misinforming on this forum. All of the regular posters (G'em, Dragan, Boru, Transform, T-ha, etc etc etc) know their stuff and offer excellent advice on all manner of things. There is no doubt about that. I merely wanted to clear up the misinformation that is perpetrated on the web, often by manufacturers of whey protein etc. The 20 min thing, totally unfounded, is put out there on message boards all over the world. I don't know where it came from, but we all know what the interweb is like for these kinds of things. Email and message boards etc have meant that information, regardless of how accurate it is, can reach many millions of people in a short space of time.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to get down anyones throat, just to put an end to some of the myths. The post is long and goes into way too much detail and you can ignore all of it. The only thing anyone needs to take from it is that protein is very stable, in terms of the polypeptide string. Breaking a peptide bond is very difficult and really requires enzymatic digestion. Isolates, concentrates and all the other buzz words that the industry use basically all mean the same thing, purified and concentrated whey proteins from milk as a byproduct of chese production. The quality very much depends on what is taken away or added to the whey protein and how much crap they bulk the product up with.

And T-ha, yeah, I know it can be done, but it's not that pleasant eh? Kinda feels like chocolate flavour sawdust, that turns to glue as it gets wet. Noice!

hardtrainer

Oh, and Trollybus, I do agree, the sooner you drink you shake the better, but only because it usually tastes better and most of us don't have a portable fridge to store it in. But, mixed with water, it will taste ok for up to a day if kept in the fridge. It all depends on what exactly is in your particular protein mix. Anyway, the point is the protein is no less available/useable after 20 mins, 1 hour, 3 hours etc.

trollybus

hardtrainer wrote:

Firstly, I would like to point out that I didn't specifically mention anyone as misinforming on this forum. All of the regular posters (G'em, Dragan, Boru, Transform, T-ha, etc etc etc) know their stuff and offer excellent advice on all manner of things. There is no doubt about that. I merely wanted to clear up the misinformation that is perpetrated on the web, often by manufacturers of whey protein etc. The 20 min thing, totally unfounded, is put out there on message boards all over the world. I don't know where it came from, but we all know what the interweb is like for these kinds of things. Email and message boards etc have meant that information, regardless of how accurate it is, can reach many millions of people in a short space of time.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to get down anyones throat, just to put an end to some of the myths. The post is long and goes into way too much detail and you can ignore all of it. The only thing anyone needs to take from it is that protein is very stable, in terms of the polypeptide string. Breaking a peptide bond is very difficult and really requires enzymatic digestion. Isolates, concentrates and all the other buzz words that the industry use basically all mean the same thing, purified and concentrated whey proteins from milk as a byproduct of chese production. The quality very much depends on what is taken away or added to the whey protein and how much crap they bulk the product up with.

And T-ha, yeah, I know it can be done, but it's not that pleasant eh? Kinda feels like chocolate flavour sawdust, that turns to glue as it gets wet. Noice!

I agree with you, you obiously know your stuff. I think is is Guvnor that upset a few people by saying "certain people on the board". I think its great to see the good advice given here and I believe a lot of people have benefited from it. I think your contributions are valuable aswell and look forward to reading your posts in the future.
Out of interest do you work in the nutrition industry?

maxi-twist

hardtrainer wrote:

There has been a lot of misinformation about protein denaturation, amino acid degradation and so, with particular reference to some magic 20 min rule in consumption of whey protein shakes. Most of it is akin to the kinds of rumours and myths that we have no doubt all seen from that spectacularly stupid article on the creo-munchers in the health supp. of the IT this week.

Some folks here should know all of this already, coming from a science background like myself. Amino acids are stable biological chemicals. Simple. They are complex molecules held together by strong bonds. They can be broken down, thats true, but with the aid of a) enzymes or b) chemicals. Water/milk/juice will not damage any amino acid.

Amino acids are either hydrphobic or hydrophillic, but this doesn't make them any less stable in water, this just affects the likely position of these amino acids within a polypeptide (protein).

Whey proteins are no different to other proteins. They are marginally less tolerant of high temperatures (above 75ºC) than casein, but they are remarkably more heat tolerant than many other proteins, including collagen. So, what about the protein in our whey shakes. Simply put, regardless of what the manufacturer says on their website, the majority of whey isolates, concentrates and so on, comes as a by product of cheese manufacture. Now, the exact point during this process that the whey is sourced from varies and this variation affects both the quality of the protein (in terms of the proteins natural activity) and the cost.
There are a number of dairy research institutes (notably in the US and India) which have been pioneering dairy protein fractioning, lactoferrin, lactoperoxidase, whey isolates and so on, but the protein that we are mostly getting as our whey powder really does come from cheese production.

There are many buzz words; cold-filtered, reverse osmosis, ion exchange, hydrolysed, bio-available and so on. Simply put, the whey is separated, often very crudely, and is then purified to remove waste and any remaining carbohydrates. At this point, most of the whey protein has been denatured. That is to say that the secondary and tertiary structure of the proteins is destroyed. You are left with the perfectly intact, polypeptides, with the same sequence of amino acids as before. Now there is a problem. Hydrophillic vs hydrophobic amino acids. Since hydrophobic aa's are repelled by water, the polypeptides will form a random configuration, based mostly on the aversion to water that is exhibited by the hyrdophobic aa's. These conformations are not biologically active, they don't perform any function and they are not stable. This is seen as coagulation. The same process that causes the white of an egg, for example, to go solid when cooked.

When manufacturers talk of hydrolysed protein, they simple mean that the protein has been denatured by breaking the hydrogen bonds that stabilise the secondary structure. Why does this make protein more bioavailable? Well, simply put, native state proteins (with sec. and tert. structure intact) are greatly more resistand to enzymatic digestion, i.e. breakdown into amino acids, which are utilised by the body. This is not to say that it cannot be done, it is done, every time we eat raw protein sources, including all the cheek cells and cells lining the alimentary canal (the ones that get to our stomach anyway) that we digest every day. Peptases in the stomach break the peptide bonds, releasing the individual amino acids which the body can then use to build and repair muscle and also for use as energy and as components for hormones, or even as neurotransmitters (glutamate).

There you have it. Thats the basic biochemistry of amino acids and proteins, all that is relevant to the discussions about denaturation of proteins in whey shakes anyway. The idea that any amino acid breaks down spontaneously in water is untrue. They don't. Proteins can denature in water, many of them do, as the pH of water may not be optimal for them. This has no negative effects on their nutritional value, if anything it increases it by making it easier for your body to breakdown. Cooking protein (collagen in meat etc) helps to break down and denature the protein making it easier to digest. But then the acid in our stomach does a good job of that too, unless the protein has some particular resistance to it (like the coat proteins of many parasites, membrane proteins of bacteria etc).

So go ahead, knock yourselves out. Mix your protein with water, with milk, with juice, whatever you prefer. Wait an hour, wait two, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the nutritional value of the protein. The whey proteins you're drinking are no longer in any way biologically active anyway, they been heated, acid treated, purified, partially digested and spray dried already. Rehydrating them just makes them easier for you to ingest. Seriously, have you ever tried to eat a spoonful of protein powder? Go on, try it.

I hope this has cleared up, once and for all, the myths and magic 20 mins to consume rule, that get offered up as science on these forums.

THanks for that!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.