Show N Tell

ginoguns39

BIT CHEEKY BUT DARE WE LIST THE CRANKY SUPERS OUT THERE?,NOT THE NAMES BUT AREAS & COUNTIES.:eek:

duckmusic

ginoguns39 wrote:

BIT CHEEKY BUT DARE WE LIST THE CRANKY SUPERS OUT THERE?,NOT THE NAMES BUT AREAS & COUNTIES.:eek:

Not sure that's a good idea. Not really going to accomplish much and just get there backs up which we could do without

johngalway

In short no, I don't dare cos my Supernintendo has so far granted both my applications in double quick time to date.

ginoguns39

WELL THATS A DEAD DUCK IN THE WATER.MY SUPER IS FAB,IF I WAS GAY IDE GIVE HIM ONE HA:eek:

Clare gunner

Dont see why not.
WE are paying their wages.
They are supposedly answerable to us ,the people of Ireland.
In this day and age of productivity and demand of good services,where everyone is rated,I dont see why Supers should be immune from this process either.If we dare speak ill of our pillars of Irish society these days,lets add the Gardai to it as well.
They cant say that they are blameless going by the published cases in the Dec/Jan shooters digest.
So why not name the districts where the bad Supers sit? Anyone can then find out on their own bat who the Super is then.

PS Gino ,knock off the CAPS button. All Capital letters denoate that you are shouting.;)

duckmusic

Clare gunner wrote:

They are supposedly answerable to us ,the people of Ireland.

I would of thought that if you have a problem with your Super it would be better to address it with them or complain to the GSCB (Garda Síochána Complaints Board). Don't think a public forum is the place for this sort of thing. Some would call it cowardly to go complaining on this where their identity is hidden and they are safe of never having to confront the person

Rew

Most people never mee there super and only hear rumours about them and how they treat firearms certs. Posting rumours and hear say here is pointless and will only land us in trouble.

Some people need to get over their personal vendetta with the Gardaí....

Vegeta

yeah i don't think this is the place for it. I agree with ClareGunner that they should be ranked etc but I just don't think this forum is the place to do it

Clare gunner

Rew wrote:

Most people never mee there super and only hear rumours about them and how they treat firearms certs. Posting rumours and hear say here is pointless and will only land us in trouble.

Some people need to get over their personal vendetta with the Gardaí....

Well Rew,I posted the name of my Super and station in my saga about getting the Glock into Ireland..And I stand over every last word of it as well.Y'see I have documentary evidence of the whole procedure[or lack of it].So it is provable.So logically anyone who would have a groan about their Super,would have corrospondence relating to the matter or their legal repersentative would,or they would be willing to swear an affidavitt to their treatment .Hardly rumour and heresay.
If you cant prove it ,dont post it.And this applies to anything firearms related here,of the rumour and scuttlebutt on new laws,calibre bans, etc etc.

Hardly a vendetta to expect prompt,fair and corteous service to the public as stated in the Garda charter of service to the public ,hanging in every station.
Or are we shooters somhow excluded from this??
I
f we cant discuss who is making life difficult and who is making life easy for us regarding shooting in Ireland on a Irish shooting board.Where else can we discuss it??? Would we put up with such shoddy treatment from any other Govt dept in Ireland???So why should we be so worried about what a Super will do to us??We really have to learn to complain more here in Ireland,otherwise we will get treated like dirt all the time.

The police are there to uphold the law of the land,not to administer,ignore,warp,pervert or otherwise thwart it as they see fit.Which has been documented by NARGC and is in the public domain for all to read in the ISD DEC/Jan 07.I am sure any Super concerned would be able to make out himself in the case studies.Has the ISD been served any writs for libel or defamation sofar??
If this is the case we are not living in a Western democracy[we are in a constituntional republic] but some Third World tinpot dictatorship.:(

Mufflets

Well said ClareG. I agree with you 100%, The less we in Ireland complain the more we get ignored and no one should be above reasonable scrutiny/criticism especially not public servants.
I would however propose an amendment to gino.s proposal, to include information on/incidents of helpful and reasonable Supers like my local one.

ginoguns39

look lads dont get your knickers in a twist.ime not tarring all supers with the one brush,read what i said.but there are some out there that fancy themselves as god.my super is a nice guy and i have no problems whatsoever with him.but a pal of mine has with his super.it was just a bit of fun.no names just areas that may be hard to apply for liciences.it may benefit if a guy knew what his area was like to apply for a licience.sooooooo relax grow some nuts.

Vegeta

Gino i think people are on your side about Supers. The problem is not all people have as well documented a case as Clare Gunner. He can 100% back up his claims as he recorded a lot of the process for his license.

If someone starts saying stuff like my cousin's friend tried to apply for a license in Town X and the Super is only a prick, he delayed the license for no reason etc etc etc, then we are in a dangerous area. Could possibly be seen as libel, which would be taken against boards.ie and could lead to the end of the forum.

Obviously that is the worst case but see the sticky about MCD, its not unheard of.

Giving the county and area is as good as naming them.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

logically anyone who would have a groan about their Super,would have corrospondence relating to the matter

Er, no. CG, you have documented proof, but you're in a minority - most people wouldn't have that, either because they were caught flat-footed by a less-than-encouraging superintendent, or because they didn't know they should keep a record - not everyone knows there are such things as less-than-helpful gardai (stop laughing, most people have no contact with them for most of their lives, don't forget), or because in the odd case, people are just lazy.
In fact every so often, you'll find someone who's just having a whinge (frankly, they're few and far between, but they give such a bad name to the rest of us that remembering they exist is warranted).

If you cant prove it ,dont post it.And this applies to anything firearms related here,of the rumour and scuttlebutt on new laws,calibre bans, etc etc.

I'd agree on the first when it comes to things that can trigger libel cases, but not on the second - the whole point of posting any information at all on upcoming stuff is to get out there early the possible options so people can respond and you get a quick straw poll, in effect. The more of that, the better, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

Hardly a vendetta to expect prompt,fair and corteous service to the public as stated in the Garda charter of service to the public ,hanging in every station.

Nope, it is not. And if we could post a ranking of which district took how long to issue a licence, I'd back it to the hilt.
Thing is, such league tables:
1) Need a lot of research,
2) Are never fair, and
3) Are pretty useless to someone since they have to apply in the district they're resident in anyway. About the only use would be as a heads-up to keep a paper record from the get-go for someone.

If we cant discuss who is making life difficult and who is making life easy for us regarding shooting in Ireland on a Irish shooting board.Where else can we discuss it?

Hear, hear.
(Just don't libel anyone!)

Clare gunner

Er, no. CG, you have documented proof, but you're in a minority - most people wouldn't have that, either because they were caught flat-footed by a less-than-encouraging superintendent, or because they didn't know they should keep a record - not everyone knows there are such things as less-than-helpful gardai (stop laughing, most people have no contact with them for most of their lives, don't forget), or because in the odd case, people are just lazy.

Well, let them now go forth with the knowledge that in dealing with anything relating to firearms applications in Ireland that they had better write it down or comit it to their computor memory.Better still write it down.Lads a A4 copy book and biro is the cheapest memory and evidence gatherer yet still.Write down and date every time you wrote,phoned talked to your FAO or Super,takes 3to4 mins per entry,and you then have evidence of when and where of what.Stuff all letters into it and corrospondence and you are away in a hack.I just finished my Glock application file yesterday.[AS IT FINALLY ARRIVED YESTERDAY WHoo HOO:D ],and I have noted down exactly the minute it was in my hands.So I have total proof of the time [2 years 13 days from first application to possesion,and 13 years in the US awaiting the change of law.Grand total 15 years 13 days before I could legally posses a handgun in Ireland.You get less for murder]:D :rolleyes: .
Sorry laziness,isnt an excuse,if you cant be botherdwriting a few sentences to help yourself,you deserve what you get.:(

In fact every so often, you'll find someone who's just having a whinge (frankly, they're few and far between, but they give such a bad name to the rest of us that remembering they exist is warranted).


-

the whole point of posting any information at all on upcoming stuff is to get out there early the possible options so people can respond and you get a quick straw poll, in effect. The more of that, the better,

Agreed,but OTOH,unless it is verified by another source,it can cause all sorts of upset and consernation,as example the restricted firearms thread.Rumours are the worst thing to allow to spread as then when the truth comes out everyone looks for somone to blame for BSing them.It also demoralises everyone when they can be told the truth and then live with it.

Nope, it is not. And if we could post a ranking of which district took how long to issue a licence, I'd back it to the hilt.
Thing is, such league tables:
1) Need a lot of research,
2) Are never fair, and
3) Are pretty useless to someone since they have to apply in the district they're resident in anyway. About the only use would be as a heads-up to keep a paper record from the get-go for someone.

OTOH it would also show the consistency/inconsistency of how liscenseing is carried out in the districts in a factual[somwhat] fashion.

If,say I was living in an area that has long delays ,I at least know then that I will be waiting alot longer than the normal waiting period for a response,at least I wont be bashing my head off everyone wondering am I doing somthing wrong,or is the Super ignoring the situation?Etc.
As for fairness,well, say I post it took me two years to get a handgun lic in Limerick,but 21 days for a shotgun lic.At least somone else knows a shotgun will be quicker than a handgun in the same district.But say,somone posts and says they got the two examples quicker in reverse order.Well then we know somthing is up.
as for research,why not everyone who posts here just say how long it took in their district to get their new pieces??Not very scientific I know,but better than nowt.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Well, let them now go forth with the knowledge that in dealing with anything relating to firearms applications in Ireland that they had better write it down or comit it to their computor memory.

But they don't, not most of the time.
Look, there's about 220,000 licences in the state. The NARGC's taking 70 cases right now. Let's say that's the tip of the iceberg and that only one in ten cases are taken and only half are ever reported in the first place. That'd be 1400 cases in total - which is only just over half a percent of all applications.
So you're talking about a lot of overhead where it's not needed.

No, I think your rankings idea is about as good as we'd hope for here - a note that if you live in such-and-such a district, keep notes on everything would be far more efficient.

Agreed,but OTOH,unless it is verified by another source,it can cause all sorts of upset and consernation,as example the restricted firearms thread.

Yes, but that is the straw poll - you see what causes upset and you adjust accordingly.

OTOH it would also show the consistency/inconsistency of how liscenseing is carried out in the districts in a factual[somwhat] fashion.

Which is the stick that the Minister used to wedge in the restricted firearms list...

If,say I was living in an area that has long delays ,I at least know then that I will be waiting alot longer than the normal waiting period for a response,at least I wont be bashing my head off everyone wondering am I doing somthing wrong,or is the Super ignoring the situation?Etc.

True, but you wouldn't get it any sooner because of that.
I'm not saying it's wholly useless, just that its uses are limited.

as for research,why not everyone who posts here just say how long it took in their district to get their new pieces??Not very scientific I know,but better than nowt.

Because then it'd be as dependable as ratemyteacher.com.
Look, if people want to do it and they don't libel anyone, I welcome it. It's just that I don't want anyone thinking it'll be a silver bullet.

Clare gunner

No, I think your rankings idea is about as good as we'd hope for here - a note that if you live in such-and-such a district, keep notes on everything would be far more efficient.

It's a start.

Which is the stick that the Minister used to wedge in the restricted firearms list...

Aye,but if Supers are interperting the law as they see fit,will this make any difference to them??Some might follow it,others might let one of "their own" liscense whatever and ignore the rest of the applicants for the same type of gun.It seems to be when it reaches a certian point here some people seem to be above the law in irish society.

Look, if people want to do it and they don't libel anyone, I welcome it. It's just that I don't want anyone thinking it'll be a silver bullet.

Dont expect it to be either,it will be somthing to help those to know what to expect.

Sparks

Okay, well let's try it so...

Vegeta

That didn't end too well now did it

well we've learned a lesson from it anyway

I'm just suprised it took so long

Sparks

Thing was, it was going well up to a point. In theory, at least, it wasn't such a horrendous idea. Maybe if we restricted the input a little.
Let me think about this one for a bit...

Rew

original_psycho wrote:

I'm just suprised it took so long

me too

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

Thing was, it was going well up to a point. In theory, at least, it wasn't such a horrendous idea. Maybe if we restricted the input a little.
Let me think about this one for a bit...

Is there any facility in the vBulletin software to allow users post to a thread, but have the post vetted (by mods, solicitors, whoever) before it appears in public view?

Sparks

Not sure Rovi. Checking that out now.

Vegeta

as far as i know that can be arranged. i remember seeing it somewhere but cannot remember where. I will have a look

Rew

You can but on a board this size (ie all of boards.ie) generally its not practical.

ginoguns39

god ime sorry i started this thread now,i personally had no problems with my super,was suprised to find my pal had with his super and he lives only three miles from me,that brought me to think..is this the case countrywide or just a cork issue? i dont think ime being outrageouse or cowardly as some may think.its a forum arent forums meant to discuss topics that are of interest to people? i had no intentions of naming people in the forces,just the sticky areas. thats what i find interesting.

Rew

Rew wrote:

You can but on a board this size (ie all of boards.ie) generally its not practical.

We could just PM the mod with the story, who vets it and posts it in a 'locked' sticky

Sparks

Turns out there is a function, on a per-thread basis, to queue any post for approval by a moderator before making it visible. It's just a matter of turning it on. We're talking to the admins about doing that now.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Turns out there is a function, on a per-thread basis, to queue any post for approval by a moderator before making it visible. It's just a matter of turning it on. We're talking to the admins about doing that now.

Yeah PI use it per thread but not per post i think cos that would be very mod intensive.

On a single thread in this forum it could be very handy. What i would advise is if a post is edited, explain the edits or put a disclaimer saying posts may be edited at any time by mods

People get ratty (sometimes rightly so) when their posts are edited

Sparks

Blast. The admins say it's not a per-thread function, I must have read that bit wrong.
Hmmm.
I guess the PM route could work, but it's hardly intuitive.
I'll see if I can't think of something else...

PM'ing straigh forward and about the same workload for both the poster and the mod.

Create a locked sticky, with instructions.

PM Sparks/Rew/CivDef/Rovi (Rovi for mod!!!!) your story about getting a license.

Said mod then copies / pastes into the thread after reviewing it.


Its almost the same as the queue system

Rovi

original_psycho wrote:

PM'ing straigh forward and about the same workload for both the poster and the mod.

Create a locked sticky, with instructions.

PM Sparks/Rew/CivDef/Rovi (Rovi for mod!!!!) your story about getting a license.

Said mod then copies / pastes into the thread after reviewing it.


Its almost the same as the queue system

Thinking about it for a bit, this could work quite well. If someone is going to the trouble of composing a PM to a Mod, they'll be much more likely to be careful about wording the content of their message than might otherwise be the case if it was being done 'on the fly' on an unlocked thread.
It would also keep the thread strictly on topic, and would eliminate silly and 'me too' type posts.

Oh, original_psycho, thanks for the vote of confidence (I think).

Rew

Here's the thing though. If we do that and if a mod accidently posts somthing thats very bad then their in the **** coz it looks like it came from them if you follow. The orignal poster has been made semi-anonymous by the process.

Then dont **** up!!

I had assumed that the user name of the user would be included, and the mod would have the original pm

Sparks

True, but that's where we are now anyway Rew, no matter what way we do this - open, per-post approval or PMs.

Sparks

original_psycho wrote:

I had assumed that the user name of the user would be included, and the mod would have the original pm

Wouldn't matter OP, you know Irish libel law would go after *us* as the publisher even if they know who the original poster was.

civdef

Or we could just let the whole idea for a specific thread drop, let people bring it up in other threads if the mood hits them.

civdef

civdef wrote:

Or we could just let the whole idea for a specific thread drop, let people bring it up in other threads if the mood hits them.

Where's the fun in that??? :cool:

Umiq88

The threads hardly going to be that benifical to someone applying and will probably turn out that noone reads it after a week or two.

The mods time would be much better spent doing a sticky with all the constant questions newbies keep coming up with as in a list of all the clubs around and how to apply for a licnece although not sure about the last one!

Sparks

How to apply for a firearms licence.



Working on the club list thing. Got me an idea...

vlmaxis

ginoguns39 wrote:

BIT CHEEKY BUT DARE WE LIST THE CRANKY SUPERS OUT THERE?,NOT THE NAMES BUT AREAS & COUNTIES.:eek:

It is threads like this that prove my point about this forum, this is the sort of s**t that will keep getting shooters a bad name, if I were the mod, i would close this now. I am sick and tired of people doing nothing constructive for the sport on these F*****G sites. BE CONSTRUCTIVE! not destructive, it should be called Bitching.ie. If we'r not slagging off dealers we'r slagging off the cjb, garda or each others clubs, get a life people and think of the future of our sport, you won't see this carry on in many other sporting forums, if you only joined this site you could be forgiven for thinking we all hated each other in the sport of shooting.:mad:

VL - you've actually stumbled on the reason why I wanted the 'Rate my District' thread to remain open.

It would give the people who actually had a positive experience a chance to air their views, and the censorship imposed would mean that any negative views quite tame with the (hopeful) net result being that people wishing to join the sport would see that in most districts the Guards were actaully grand, and it was just the isolated districts where there was trouble.

That, to me anyway, seems 'constructive' enough to warrant the effort.

Sparks

original_psycho wrote:

It would give the people who actually had a positive experience a chance to air their views, and the censorship imposed would mean that any negative views quite tame with the (hopeful) net result being that people wishing to join the sport would see that in most districts the Guards were actaully grand, and it was just the isolated districts where there was trouble.

Er, no. The "censorship imposed" (and frankly I dislike the phrase and it's implications) was to prevent people posting something in a contentious thread which could be used to sue boards.ie for libel. More correctly, the process is not censorship, it's libel proofing. And frankly, the bald, imdemnified-from-libel facts are far, far more damning in those 0.5% of the bad cases than any hyperbole could hope to be.

And yes, 0.5% of cases. And that's a liberal estimate, assuming that the cases taken to court make up one twentieth of all the problem cases. The fact is, 220,000+ licences are renewed every year without problems. The system, flawed as it is, does work, by and large. That's not to say it couldn't be improved, or that we should stop pushing for that, mind you.

VL, there are times when what you say is true, but there are other times when our hushing up and not rocking the boat is a bloody terrible idea. It has led in the past to the admin side of a lot of the sport being a complete mess with bitching, infighting, conflicts of interest, old boys clubs and a dozen other actual, real, sports problems. In cases like that, as my grandmother used to say, tell the truth, shame the devil...