Ban Process - the big debate!

Owen

Something's rotten in the state of boards.ie! I think it's high time we discussed exactly how a ban happens, and the process that follows. Currently if a ban is warranted, a few things could happen :

• A Mod can PM a user, and ask the user to edit their post.

• A Mod can ban the user with no discussion with the user themselves.

• A Mod can ban a user, and PM them to let them know they're banned, how to improve their ettiquette, and hopefully resolve the issue.

• A Mod can ban a user, and PM them in a condescending manner.

• The time of the ban seems to be at the discretion of the Mod.

Clearly, this is all unacceptable. There seems to be no policy visible to us simple users of boards for the Mods to decide what is right, and what is wrong in these situations (Please correct me if I'm wrong, and post the recommended process here). More over, there seems to be little or no intervention between Mods if they feel one is a tad more agressive with the ban button than others. The helpdesk forum is full every day with people asking "Am I banned?" - this clearly indicates a lack of communication. All learning process involve pointing out mistakes, correcting them, learning from them, and not repeating them. It's this educational process that Mods are lacking.

I propose the following :

• A Mod discovers a questionable post and PM's the Poster with why it's in breach of the Charter of that Forum, and asking for the user to edit it.

• If the user at this stage is unruly, the mod can edit the post themselves, and ban the user for 1 week. At this point the user must be PM'd to let them know they're banned - communication is vital, and the PM should be business like, and pleasant. After all, being a Mod is a priviledge, and should be treated as such.

• If after the week's temporary ban, the user is still unruly, they should be given once last chance to redeem themselves via PM, or on the thread itself, or face a permenant ban from that forum.

Communication is so so important here. Currently, the situation whereby a Mod instantly bans a user, whether it be for genuine reasons, or that the Mod is on some form of power-trip, they don't try to educate the user in the process. The only Mods I see actively trying to educate are Rymus, Ruu, Faith, and Thaedydal - something that's to be commended. From a negative action such as the above, only negativity can surface. A user will become more unruly, or worse still, leave boards altogether - and that's not something I believe anyone wants. If the Mods say there's not enough hours in the day to engage users, then the solution is to recruit more Mods.

So I'm opening this up for debate!

This is not a thread to air your personal grievances with particular Mods. It is for general discussion only. I would hope that the Admins of Boards note this thread with interest, and create a standard policy for Mods to follow before banning a loyal boards user.

And Mods, for the record, the majority of you guys do a great job! I'm an Admin of 2 sites, so I know the burden you bear. This is in no way meant to demoralise you. It's just meant to hopefully improve the experience of boards for the General Public.

Sarky

ned78 wrote:

Something's rotten in the state of boards.ie!

That'll be Asok. We keep telling him to see a doctor about it, but he won't listen.

gandalf

Actually there is a policy and it is posted on the mod forum. It is good practice to PM someone with a reason why they are banned.

The only time this is not applied is if the ban is obvious like posting pornographic or offensive links or if the account is a phoenix account, then a pm is not sent.

Given the volume of posts on certain forums here it is unpractical to sometimes engage in a discussion via PM, the same goes for editing peoples posts. As a user of the site you are expected to read the charter, its amazing the number of users who don't bother and use ignorance of the rules as an excuse.

In your case I am surprised a PM wasn't sent as Thanx 4 the Fish is one of the better mods on here.

Owen

Gandalf, this is not a discussion of my case, but of boards in general. If the issue is to do with too few Mods, and not enough time, the solution is simple. Get more Mods. Either there's a policy, or there's not.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

There seems to be no policy visible to us simple users of boards for the Mods to decide what is right, and what is wrong in these situations (Please correct me if I'm wrong, and post the recommended process here).

You're wrong. Each forum has a charter, which is a policy visible to the users of each board for the mods to decide what is right and what is wrong.

gandalf

ned98 the system here is different from what you are used to fullstop. We expect the users to post like adults. If they are incapable of that they will have problems here.

BTW I was wrong about the ban procedure being part of the mod charter. But it was discussed in detail and decided that best practice is to send a pm with a ban.

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

You're wrong. Each forum has a charter, which is a policy visible to the users of each board for the mods to decide what is right and what is wrong.

Each Forum does indeed have a Charter. But you've missed the point completely. When I was referring to 'right and wrong' I meant the ban process itself, not the reason for the ban. We need to be able to see if Mods are following a strict criteria for communication with users, etc.

Owen

gandalf wrote:

We expect the users to post like adults. If they are incapable of that they will have problems here.

Again Gandalf, this is not a discussion about me, other individual users, or individual cases. This is general discussion. Please keep it on topic. It is impressive to see so many Mods posting on one thread though.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

Each Forum does indeed have a Charter. But you've missed the point completely. When I was referring to 'right and wrong' I meant the ban process itself, not the reason for the ban. We need to be able to see if Mods are following a strict criteria for communication with users, etc.

Honestly, as gandalf said, I'll usually PM someone when they are banned. The other option, which many mods use and some find acceptable, is to post in thread - this is what T4TF did and if you suspected you were banned, it would have been easy enough for you to log out to go into the forum and see why.

The one case were I may be lax about posting a PM or ban, is when someone post and obnoxious, insulting troll of a post, in which case, if they don't knwo what they did wrong, there is little a PM will do.

You have already admitted that your PM was meant to be insulting, so I don't know what you expected?

To be allowed in to a forum to be insulting and condecending to people to make yourself feel superior?

I don't know what sites you go to where that is allowed, but I'm glad I haven't found them.

Silverfish

ned78 wrote:

Again Gandalf, this is not a discussion about me, other individual users, or individual cases. This is general discussion. Please keep it on topic. It is impressive to see so many Mods posting on one thread though.

So the word 'users' is not allowed?

We expect the users to post like adults. If they are incapable of that they will have problems here

This is a general statement on boards usage.

gandalf

You flatter yourself the comment was not aimed at you and neither was my original post bar my comment saying you should have gotten a pm explaining your ban.

You asked for a discussion and on this forum I am not a mod but a user. I am the mod for the whole Society Category. And as for your suggestions sorry if I seemed a little in your face we do appreciate input like this especially from someone with similar experience on other sites.

Owen

psi wrote:

You have already admitted that your PM was meant to be insulting, so I don't know what you expected?

Can we please stay on topic? This thread has nothing to do with me, nor my ban from the Paranormal Forum. And Mods hijacking this thread to change the subject matter is hardly fair. I would appreciate if you could all edit your posts to remove individual cases. And I will too.

This is a forum for users to discuss the ban process. Nothing more.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

We need to be able to see if Mods are following a strict criteria for communication with users, etc.

You need? You need??

You seem to misunderstand a fundamental principle here: your ability to use this site is a privilege, not a right.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

Again Gandalf, this is not a discussion about me, other individual users, or individual cases. This is general discussion. Please keep it on topic. It is impressive to see so many Mods posting on one thread though.

Mod actions are dictated by the rules and the rules are dictated by the behaviour of the consensus community.

By and large, boards operates to a mature, adult population who don't break rules and don't act the ass. The rules and methodology are set up with those people in mind and when someone who doesn't act in a mature, adult fashion comes along, you may forgive some mods for assuming its just some troll and not spending much time on the PR side of things.

By and large, I think a fair guideline is to give the poster an equal amount of consideration and respect as the poster gives the forum they are in.

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

You need? You need??

You seem to misunderstand a fundamental principle here: your ability to use this site is a privilege, not a right.

Well now. There's a can of worms. I would say that being a Mod is a priviledge, and that that priviledge comes with responsibilities.

Owen

<sarcasm>Would it be more beneficial if Mods didn't post in this thread for a day or two? With clearly objectionable arguments coming in from Mods, it's small wonder why ordinary users aren't posting here - we'll all be banned soon </sarcasm>

Seriously though, users, if you're out there, chime in!

RuggieBear

I'm getting a very strong sense of deja vu

Silverfish

RuggieBear wrote:

I'm getting a very strong sense of deja vu

Do you mean deja moo?

kaimera

psi wrote:

The one case were I may be lax about posting a PM or ban, is when someone post and obnoxious, insulting troll of a post

Ditto. The only time now I don't even bother with a PM is with the aforementioned type of posts.

A PM is a courtesy, not a right. If the poster is well beyond acceptable limits of what can be posted as stated by the charter, us mods are not babysitters and damned if I'm going to point out to the user the RTFC.

Owen

kaimera wrote:

and damned if I'm going to point out to the user the RTFC.

You should follow Thaedydal's example. Professionalism at it's best.

CiaranC

It might be an idea for people to remember that its the users who create 99% of the content of this site and 100% of the reason why people visit it.

Battling against egomaniacal moderators when you inadvertently violate some obscure line in one of 100s of different charters grows a bit tiresome.

Goodshape

ned78 wrote:

I would say that being a Mod is a priviledge

Mod's don't receive too much in the way of special attention, at least no more than any other respected member of the community who has proven their worth over time.

And being a mod of 'Sleeping & Dreaming', for instance, offers me absolutely no extra say in what happens anywhere outside the 'Sleeping & Dreaming' forum. I am a user too, just one that has been around long enough to have seen this exact thing explained many, many, times.

Talliesin

It sometimes helps the forum if a user temporarily banned knows why.

It often helps the forum if the other users know.

It sometimes amuses the forum's users if the mod refers to the fact that they just banned the problem-maker in an amusing way.

It sometimes helps the forum if the recent posts were deleted.

It sometimes helps the site if a user is sitebanned and every post they made is deleted.

Mods try to judge which situation applies in each case.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

Well now. There's a can of worms. I would say that being a Mod is a priviledge, and that that priviledge comes with responsibilities.

I just had the privilege of cleaning up the mess a spammy muppet made in Politics. I didn't bother with a PM.

If I have a responsibility, it's to those users who want to use the site in a constructive manner - i.e. according to the rules laid down for each forum - and to the admins.

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

If I have a responsibility, it's to those users who want to use the site in a constructive manner - i.e. according to the rules laid down for each forum - and to the admins.

So lets say one of your users make a minor slip up, and breaks the rules. Would you make any attempt at reconciliation, or would you just ban without a PM?

oscarBravo

CiaranC wrote:

Battling against egomaniacal moderators when you inadvertently violate some obscure line in one of 100s of different charters grows a bit tiresome.

Oh dear. Has your tiresome battling left you too worn out to answer a simple question?

Hagar

ned78 wrote:

I would say that being a Mod is a priviledge, and that that priviledge comes with responsibilities.

I would agree 100% with that statement. However, my reponsibilty is to Boards.ie as a whole, not to individual users.

I do my best to protect the interests of the majority of the people in the forums I mod. Sometimes this appears to infringe on the interests of an individual poster in much the same way as a Garda infringes on the interests of a criminal.

The Gardaí are just there to protect the meatworlders from criminals and the mods are here to protect Boards.ie from muppets. The only difference is that we do in our own small way make some of the rules. Once made though we apply them fairly to all concerned. People just have to read the rules and follow them or pay a forfeit.

Talliesin

Slip up, and once off, I'd most likely ignore it if it went ignored by others (no reports, no danger of a flame war starting) and warn otherwise.

If you think that I'm going to do anything to someone Spamming links to their porn sites than kick them out on their ear, then you're pretty damn stupid.

All of this is irrelevant to most users. Most users don't get banned, because most users don't break the very simple, mainly common-sense*, rules that we have.


*Some rules aren't 100% common-sense, in the sense that it's not immediately obvious why they are there. These rules tend to have the largest degree of leniency in how they are applied though.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

So lets say one of your users make a minor slip up, and breaks the rules. Would you make any attempt at reconciliation, or would you just ban without a PM?

For minor slip-ups: warning, temp ban, whatever - depends on the circumstances.

For a troll who wades into the forum and ridicules all the serious participants: instant ban, no PM. I've done this on Archery, for example.

CiaranC

oscarBravo wrote:

Oh dear. Has your tiresome battling left you too worn out to answer a simple question?

:rolleyes:

Owen

This thread is slowly moving away from the original post. What I had intended was for the ordinary users of boards to look at my suggestions, critique the process I laid out, and hopefully come up with a concise, and fair list we could present to the site owners.

Instead, it's become a soap box for Mods. Each Mod with a few exceptions on this thread has posted with - I do this, I don't do that, I don't bother with PMs, etc. This doesn't exactly paint you in a shining light. If I was a Mod at this point, I would be thinking "What's best for boards in the public's eyes?", not "What's best for boards, but easiest for me?".

Goodshape

ned78 wrote:

This thread is slowly moving away from the original post. What I had intended was for the ordinary users of boards to look at my suggestions, critique the process I laid out, and hopefully come up with a concise, and fair list we could present to the site owners.

Instead, it's become a soap box for Mods. Each Mod with a few exceptions on this thread has posted with - I do this, I don't do that, I don't bother with PMs, etc. This doesn't exactly paint you in a shining light. If I was a Mod at this point, I would be thinking "What's best for boards in the public's eyes?", not "What's best for boards, but easiest for me?".

How do you type with your hands over your eyes like that?

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

For a troll who wades into the forum and ridicules all the serious participants: instant ban, no PM. I've done this on Archery, for example.

That's disgraceful, and you seem proud of it. Troll or not, you should act professionally. You've been given a job to do, so do it. You should have PM'd the individual involved, and told them what not to do.

I don't seem to remember getting an eMail when I registered with boards telling me to read the Charter in each forum before I post. Perhaps newbies don't understand the rules fully, and as a consequence, rather than educating them on their mistake, you choose the heavy handed route, and ban them, leaving them bitter.

There are better ways!

oscarBravo

CiaranC wrote:

:rolleyes:

Well, I guess that's me told.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

That's disgraceful, and you seem proud of it. Troll or not, you should act professionally. You've been given a job to do, so do it. You should have PM'd the individual involved, and told them what not to do.

Professional? Job? You seem to misunderstand the relationhship.

Allow me to quote a couple of the thread titles that I deleted this evening from Politics: "Why <a moderator> is a fat Twat"; "Why did <another moderator> shag a sheep?". Are you really suggesting I should have sent a PM politely pointing out that these threads are in contravention of the Politics charter?

ned78 wrote:

I don't seem to remember getting an eMail when I registered with boards telling me to read the Charter in each forum before I post. Perhaps newbies don't understand the rules fully, and as a consequence, rather than educating them on their mistake, you choose the heavy handed route, and ban them, leaving them bitter.

I've been here since 2001, and - to the best of my recollection - I've never been banned from a forum. It's really not that hard to read the thread that says ***READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!!*** at the top of each forum.

Talliesin

Sorry, but if someone comes along and causes difficulties for the users then they owe boards.ie, boards.ie doesn't owe them

You aren't being professional either, so STFU.

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

Professional? Job? You seem to misunderstand the relationhship.

You signed up to represent boards in your chosen forum. That's the relationship.

oscarBravo wrote:

It's really not that hard to read the thread that says ***READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!!*** at the top of each forum.

Unfortunately, a website is only as good as it's lowest common denominator. If, for example, Sex and Sexuality was an open Forum, do you think a newbie would even see the ***READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!!*** at the top of the page if the words "My breasts are too big", etc are the subject title of a thread below? An extreme example yes, but people don't always do the logical thing, and you as Mods must be prepared for that eventuality.

I'm not saying do this in every situation, and not one where a user is constantly flooding a forum with nonsensical comments, but give every user the benefit of the doubt. After all, innocent until proven guilty!

_blank_

ned78 wrote:

That's disgraceful, and you seem proud of it. Troll or not, you should act professionally. You've been given a job to do, so do it. You should have PM'd the individual involved, and told them what not to do.

What?

Are you seriously suggesting that people who mod on this website should waste their time on time-wasters who troll the forums they mod?

The job of a mod is akin to a janitor, to clean up the mess created by trolls, Spammers and general idiots who can't read the rules.

Owen

Talliesin wrote:

You aren't being professional either, so STFU.

How is trying to improve the ban process being unprofessional?

CiaranC

OscarBravo wrote:

I've been here since 2001, and - to the best of my recollection - I've never been banned from a forum. It's really not that hard to read the thread that says ***READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!!*** at the top of each forum.

lol, you are a true paragon of virtue. Notwithstanding the fact that you are trolling and dragging the thread off-topic with reference to some nonsensical post from elsewhere.

Surely theres some rule against that sort of thing.

Owen

seansouth wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that people who mod on this website should waste their time on time-wasters who troll the forums they mod?

If you took the time to read the post above yours, you'd see I agree with banning people who flood forums, etc. It's the first timers who should be shown consideration. All are being tarred with the same brush, and that's not fair. Everyone deserves a chance.

Gordon

I just want to pick up on a couple of small points:

ned78 wrote:

The helpdesk forum is full every day with people asking "Am I banned?"

No it's not.

I propose the following :

• A Mod discovers a questionable post and PM's the Poster with why it's in breach of the Charter of that Forum, and asking for the user to edit it.

• If the user at this stage is unruly, the mod can edit the post themselves, and ban the user for 1 week. At this point the user must be PM'd to let them know they're banned - communication is vital, and the PM should be business like, and pleasant. After all, being a Mod is a priviledge, and should be treated as such.

• If after the week's temporary ban, the user is still unruly, they should be given once last chance to redeem themselves via PM, or on the thread itself, or face a permenant ban from that forum.

So:
- Warning
- Temp ban
- Perm ban.
- All stages using private messages

That seems to be your suggestion. Tbh that's roughly how I think it is here. I think that some mods will not PM people all of the time, some of them some of the time. It really depends. Obviously, this is the best case scenario though, yes.

It really can be a waste of a mods time trying to warn a user when they are obviously trolling. The time wasted with pointless PMs from an obviously abusive and troublesome poster could be put to better use. Why should a mod have to explain to an obvious troll why they are in contravention of article 9 sub paragraph b(ii) of the charter when the user comes back and retorts "FASCIST MODDZ STFU". For example. A mod will use their discretion based on what the user has written and how they have acted and will moderate the user as they think best - best for the forum, the site, and their own sanity. If the user is acting a muppet then the mod will not act in the users best interests - which is to provide the muppet with a platform for their muppetry.

And Mods, for the record, the majority of you guys do a great job! I'm an Admin of 2 sites, so I know the burden you bear.

/vom

If you really know what it's like to mod a large forum then you should know that comments like that will undoubtedly cause some friction, and at the very least mild nausea which is not beneficial to the users and mods of most web forums.

So - to summarise:
Warning, temp ban, perm ban is (imo) how it works here. However, the severity of the case may lead to the user not being PMd. You may not think it is right but the mod may not think that the user is right by causing friction on the forum they moderate.

oscarBravo

CiaranC wrote:

lol, you are a true paragon of virtue. Notwithstanding the fact that you are trolling and dragging the thread off-topic with reference to some nonsensical post from elsewhere.

Surely theres some rule against that sort of thing.

I'm sorry - were you making a point, or flinging around baseless accusations and refusing to back them up?

CiaranC

Good lad, keep trolling away there. Do you expect me to rise to it?

Owen

Gordon wrote:

I just want to pick up on a couple of small points:

Thanks Gordon. You make some excellent points, the most important of which is that the majority of Mods try their hardest. No one is disputing that.

Unfortunately, some don't. Look at oscarbravo in this thread for example taking what was an impartial matter with CiaranC and making it personal. These are the things that upset users, and that I would not allow happen on my sites. Granted, my sites don't have the traffic that boards do, but the principals remain the same.

With regard to my comment on the Helpdesk being full of messages where people don't know why they were banned, it is a common occurrence. It doesn't necessarily mean it happens every hour of every day, but as a regular boardsie, I do see it quite often enough to see that communication between Mods and what seem to be users making stupid mistakes, isn't happening.

Gordon

ned78 wrote:

Unfortunately, some don't. Look at oscarbravo in this thread for example taking what was an impartial matter with CiaranC and making it personal. These are the things that upset users, and that I would not allow happen on my sites. Granted, my sites don't have the traffic that boards do, but the principals remain the same.

There's theory and there's practice though.

I agree that oscarbravo and CiaranC are giving us a good show of Thunderdome material (which you are wrong about - users love getting the popcorn out) that is best left to the Thunderdome but maybe this is a great way of understanding Mod Vs User mentality - on the base level? After all, this is a discussion board..

With regard to my comment on the Helpdesk being full of messages where people don't know why they were banned, it is a common occurrence. It doesn't necessarily mean it happens every hour of every day, but as a regular boardsie, I do see it quite often enough to see that communication between Mods and what seem to be users making stupid mistakes, isn't happening.

Please just get your facts straight. The Helpdesk is not full of messages where people don't know why they are banned. I just want to clarify that as you still seem to be implying it.

However, there are occasionaly threads on Feedback about this, much less popular is a thread on the Helpdesk. I think each case should be looked at though, they are all different. Just because you have 5 or 6 threads on Feedback (this month, very few in December iirc) doesn't mean that the bans are badly handled.

And also, considering the traffic of this site and the sheer amount of people that are sitebanned (with no PM or warning) - it's a surprisingly small amount of users compared to the overall userbase imo.

We'd all like it to be a perfect world but all sides have to be taken into consideration to create our garden of love, beauty and hookers.

oscarBravo

ned78 wrote:

Look at oscarbravo in this thread for example taking what was an impartial matter with CiaranC and making it personal.

Excuse me? He threw the same type of unfounded remark - which he's unprepared to back up - into this thread as he did in the previous thread I referenced. Did you feel he had contributed something of value to this thread?

Owen

Gordon wrote:

However, there are occasionaly threads on Feedback about this, much less popular is a thread on the Helpdesk.

My bad - I got the two Forums confused, I've never had to use them before. You've made some excellent points, and given me quite a bit to think about. I still think some Mods are a little cavalier, and that whatever internal forum you guys use should have clearer guidelines in place, but what is very clear indeed is that hard working Mods like yourself keep the place afloat.

Gordon wrote:

We'd all like it to be a perfect world but all sides have to be taken into consideration to create our garden of love, beauty and hookers.

I find your ideas intriguing, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter of love, beauty, and hookers.

Owen

oscarBravo wrote:

Excuse me? He threw the same type of unfounded remark - which he's unprepared to back up - into this thread as he did in the previous thread I referenced. Did you feel he had contributed something of value to this thread?

No, but your taunting him is a bit much imo.

GuanYin

You see, there is a flaw in this thread - as there is with many threads of this ilk.

You seem to think the topic of this thread is to "improve the ban process" - suggesting that there is a problem with it.

Your suggestion comes from a sample size of 1. Which, isn't going to actually reflect anything but your experience in this case.

Your experience in the case, which you feel is separate from the topic, came about because you were, by your own admission, acting the muppet.

But you want to remove the particulars of how this thread came about - ie. the circumstances of your behaviour, and suggest there is an overall problem.

The fact is, if we remove, as you suggest, reference to your particular case - where is the evidence that users who are banned, don't get PMs and warnings?

You don't have any evidence so what *this* thread is about is a **** stirring soapbox for your case - but you're avoiding discussing your case so you don't get called on it.

So your left with two options.

1) Show that there is a problem with the banning process that merits an overhaul or review.

or, in the absence of that, (2) mount a name and shame campaign of those mods who deviate from what appears to be, on the basis of this thread, the accepted norm of communicating with users who are banned.

Owen

My case is indeed from a poorly managed (On both sides) case of 1, but that's not the issue here. As Gordon pointed out in his thread, in agreement with me, there are cases where threads are popping up, and users are asking "Why was I banned". So there's obviously an issue.

The self promotion of the mods on this thread compound the issue, and build my case further. We've had Mods such as Gordon setting an example, listing what they feel is the correct process in each case, and then we have Mods who do what they want, when they want, and owe nothing to the users - apparently.

I'd love for this to be me, and only me, but the evidence stacking up indicates otherwise.