A4 vs. Passat vs.Superb vs. Avensis

Rowley Birkin QC

Hi all, just looking for some advice from the collective wisdom of the boards.

The oul lad is in the market for a new car and we have test driven all of the above lately. Currently they are ranked in this order but to be honest there isnt much between them:

1.A4 1.9 TDi Limited Edition
2.Skoda Superb 2.0 TDi Comfort Spec
3.Avensis D-4-D Aura
4.Passat 1.9 TDi.

We were most impressed by the power, refinement, handling and comfort in the A4. Also the dealer has quoted a price nearly €3,000 off the list price. Also A4's seem to hold their value well, especially in the 1.9 TDi variant, a big plus. This one in Limited Edition spec will have (I think) the quattro multi spoke wheels which might command a premium on trade-in. The one thing that worried us was a possible lack of space in the back of the car for 3 kids. Any thought opinons, arguments?

The Skoda Superb was an afterthought. As we were driving home from the Toyota garage we spotted a sign for a Skoda dealership and gave it a test drive (along with an 170bhp VRS Octavia, great car!!) The Superb really is a good car, huge space inside and the 2.0 TDi coupled with a 6 speed box is a pleasure. The suspension feels a bit soft but for a car based on the A6 platform this is not surprising. The plus points were the huge space in cabin and boot and the price. Whats really worrying the father is depreciation and he reckons he will only being able trade back to a skoda dealer when the time comes for a change. Anyone have any experience of this car? resale values?

The Avensis did exactly what is said on the tin, and nothing more. It is a solid family car but we found it a desperately boring place to be compared to both the audi and skoda. We had driven the Audi first and to be honest it set a benchmark in terms of design and build quality that the avensis couldnt match. The dealer wasnt entirely helpful either despite the fact that we have been driving toyota for as long as I know. The interior of the car was swathed in grey cheap looking plastic and felt flimsy, the center console was far too busy, buttons everywhere, and simply didnt make any impression. The ride quality was, again, satisfactory, nothing more nothing less.

The oul lad has for years admired the Passat. We have driven a variety of second hand petrol corollas, starlets and avensii for as long as I remember. Passats always carried an air of quality but when we drove one we were decidedly underwhelmed. The car, both inside and out, is even more boring than the avensis. The engine was ridiculously noisy and dad remarked that the cab of our old zetor tractor was quieter than the cabin of the passat!!! Also this engine (1.9 TDi 105bhp) is horribly, ridiculously underpowered and suffers, in my opinion, from the worst turbo lag of any of the 4 cars we drove.



So thats the situation as it stands, the Audi is out in front but is being pushed hard by the Skoda. Im looking for your experiences with these cars or any opinions you have on anything else we should be looking at. Before anyone mentions Mondeos dad firmly believes that FORD stands for Fix Or Repair Daily, bad experiences with Cortinas methinks!

Maximum budget is about €39k.
Cheers lads.

WildWater

bigkev49 wrote:

The dealer wasnt entirely helpful either despite the fact that we have been driving toyota for as long as I know.
Cheers lads.

In my experience the absolute worst thing about buying a Toyota is the sales people in the dealerships. Unfriendly, unhelpful and unknowledgeable, and unwilling to do anything other than the most basic sales pitch. :mad:

BTW it sounds to me like you have already made up your minds on the A4. Whats the price difference re the toyota and skoda?

Rowley Birkin QC

Yeah we found that too, the Skoda and Audi were most engaging and the Audi lad was the only one to offer 3 day test drive and a car to cover the 4-5 week wait for the new car to arrive. Toyota dealer just threw us the brochure and keys to test car which had a flashing fuel light!! :eek:

Theres about €7k between the Audi and Toyota.

Bout €4 k btwn Audi and Skoda

WildWater

bigkev49 wrote:

Toyota dealer just threw us the brochure and keys to test car which had a flashing fuel light!! :eek:

we had the exact same experience last time. I am in the market for a new Corolla and if they do the same thing I intend to drive it till it runs out of fuel have the missus or friend behind me to pick me up and then drive back to the dealership hand them the keys and tell them where the car is

Could this actually be a trick to keep the test drive short and hence the milage down. If so it worked as all my other half wanted to do once she was the red light was to go up to the roundabout and back to the dealer.

bigkev49 wrote:

Theres about €7k between the audi and toyota.

Thats a fairly substantial difference.

Rowley Birkin QC

Yeah tis a nice lump of cash in any mans language but tis the first time he has been in a position to spend that kind of cash on a motor so he is prepared to go the extra mile if the Audi proves to be the best value for money.

spank_inferno

Because these high end executive cars cost more maintaining their resale value as best as possible is important.
Therefore The Audi would be the one to go for.

Nothing against skoda, I've owned 2 and they are good cars but the name still isnt strong enough yet to hold their value.

Off topic but you sounded impressed by the Octavia VRS?
What was it like?

JoeA3

You mentioned that the A4 felt refined, whereas the Passat was noisy and rough. But as far as I know, the 1.9TDI is the same engine in both cars. Both also offer the more powerful, and more modern 2.0 140bhp diesel.
Perhaps it was just that the Audi was better noise insulated...

bazz26

The A4 is 6 years old now and a new model is available before the end of the year. This will be a factor in depreciation, do a search for "A4" on this forum as there was a thread recently about the A4 and depreciation was worked out at about €8k in the first year or so. Also the "limited edition" is still fairly basic compared to others, no rear electric windows afaik on a €39k car! :eek: The 1.9 TDi is also long in the tooth these days, the 2.0 TDi is light years ahead of it.

I would not recommend buying a Superb new as the depreciation is shocking on them, they don't hold their value like the Octavia Try and get a nearly new one as they are good bargins second hand. I also found the car to be showing it's age as it is based on the previous generation Passat. The interior is very 1990s with sharp edges and fiddly switchgear on the Passat inspired dashboard. The only redeming factors I can think of are the interior space, price and availability of the 2.0 TDi engine.

Does it have to be a new car? For €39k you can get a nearly new Honda Accord 2.2 Diesel:
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=528321
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=566593

Very well equipped car including leather electric seats, 2.2 diesel is very smooth and quite too.

Biro

JoeA3 wrote:

You mentioned that the A4 felt refined, whereas the Passat was noisy and rough. But as far as I know, the 1.9TDI is the same engine in both cars. Both also offer the more powerful, and more modern 2.0 140bhp diesel.
Perhaps it was just that the Audi was better noise insulated...

True, but you'd be surprised at the amount of people blinded by the 4 rings.
The superb is a comfortable boat (based on the old Passat platform), and will loose value heavily. The Octavia is the mainstream Skoda, and thats holding value fairly well, so the TDI VRs is the one to go for in that camp. The Avensis is a sharper handler than any of the rest, but quite dull. The 1.9 TDi in Audi and VW is the older engine, and is noisy and unrefined with all the power clumped into a narrow rev range. It's 105bhp in the passat and 115bhp in the A4. Either way, it's poor, and I'd question the judgement of anyone who'd be more impressed with it than the 2.0TDi, which in comparison is a much superior engine.
Worth test driving the 2.0 TDi in the passat, the B6 passat is a much better drivers car than the old model, with nice handling if a little light in the steering. I'd prefer the looks of it over the bland A4, but thats personal opinion. It is basically the same car, but with more space. A4 is very cramped in the back.
To sum up, I'd avoid the Superb, all new model due out this year is enough reason. If you want value, consider the vrs octavia, but might be a bit firmly set up for your old man.
Avensis will hold its value and has a good engine, but if you don't like it then that rules it out.
Between the Passat and A4 - be sure to test drive the 2.0TDi passat before you judge. Then decide, but both of them will hold their value (maybe the A4 more so), and the Passat has more space. So decide. Point to note... new model A4 due in '07 aswell.

gyppo

A4 is a beautiful car. However, the rear space is tight, so it might not be the best option in this regard. It would be a pity to fall in love with the car, and 6 months down the line find it not suitable for your needs.

On the other hand, the Superb is huge.

Why not try an Octavia though, and save yourself a packet of money. More room in the back than the A4.

Its unfortunate that you won't consider a Mondeo. Fords today are nothing remotely like the fodder they dished out in the 80's and early 90's.

bazz26

JoeA3 wrote:

You mentioned that the A4 felt refined, whereas the Passat was noisy and rough. But as far as I know, the 1.9TDI is the same engine in both cars. Both also offer the more powerful, and more modern 2.0 140bhp diesel.
Perhaps it was just that the Audi was better noise insulated...

Yes both the Passat and A4 have the same 1.9 TDi engine but the A4 has 115bhp compared to the Passat's 105bhp. That engine was good in it's day but these days diesel technology has moved on.

bazz26

gyppo wrote:

Its unfortunate that you won't consider a Mondeo. Fords today are nothing remotely like the fodder they dished out in the 80's and early 90's.

The new Mondeo is just around the corner too.

Stephen

Isn't there a 130bhp VAG 1.9TDI available in the Passat and A4? Probably would be much better to live with than the 105bhp one.

Biro

@bazz26 - Seems we're on the same wavelength! I'd agree with your posts. The Accord is a fine bus, with an excellent engine, the most refined diesel I've heard.
@stephen - the 130 isn't sold anymore. The 2.0 replaced it. The 1.9 is just there as an entry model. (VRT taxes 2.0's and up more heavily, so there is more of a difference in price than normal here)

Rowley Birkin QC

spank_inferno wrote:

Off topic but you sounded impressed by the Octavia VRS?
What was it like?

Both myself and the oul lad were well impressed with the VRS, the sills, spoilers, fogs and stainless exhaust tips make it far more aesthetically pleasing than the standard Octavia. Dont know if its only available in the racing blue colour but it really is a good looking car.

Under the skin the 6 speed box coupled with the 170 horses was just fantastic, there was constant power in all gears. The sportier suspension really shone through on the backroads we brought this car to. It was virtually flat through bends. While the suspension is clearly different to standard it is not too hard for everyday use, IMO.

The interior was not all that different to standard apart from improved dash and sports seats. Overall a very tasty package but too small and a bit lary for a 45 year old man! Great car though, the dealer said he would have the diesel over the petrol anyday.

Thanks for all the opinions and advice lads. Wasnt aware that a new A4 is due. Also a lot of you are saying the 2.0 TDi unit is far superior. Is this just on BHP or is it a completely different lump?

MR BIG

Its unfortunate that you won't consider a Mondeo. Fords today are nothing remotely like the fodder they dished out in the 80's and early 90's.[/QUOTE]

Im a previous 00 ford focus 1.4 lx owner, full ford main dealer service history from new, care takin care of,two months after I traded the car in I heard that the engine and gearbox went, and I also heard that all 98-02 has a manufactures fault with the engine and they all burn oil after 60000 miles.

Biro

bigkev49 wrote:

Also a lot of you are saying the 2.0 TDi unit is far superior. Is this just on BHP or is it a completely different lump?

Completely different engine. More refined and much smoother and more linear power delivery. Overall would be a lot faster than the 130 of old.

Rowley Birkin QC

Biro wrote:

Completely different engine. More refined and much smoother and more linear power delivery. Overall would be a lot faster than the 130 of old.

well now this could change things. The speed of it isnt that much of an issue but if its a more modern lump that manages to be smoother thats definitely something worth considering.

Do you reckon that it would really be worth the extra €2-3.5k at the dealership??


Edit: I know I slated the passat in the OP for being slow but it really is poor.

Biro

bigkev49 wrote:

well now this could change things. The speed of it isnt that much of an issue but if its a more modern lump that manages to be smoother thats definitely something worth considering.

Do you reckon that it would really be worth the extra €2-3.5k at the dealership??


Edit: I know I slated the passat in the OP for being slow but it really is poor.

The reason for the big difference is the VRT. Put it this way, it's a lot better to spend 35k on a 2.0tdi passat with a few extras than 39k on a 1.9 A4 with nothing. Audi are charging a grand per ring!
The 1.9 is nearly end of life anyway, so in a couple of years time people will have forgotten about it, and the 2.0 might be worth something back ina trade over a 1.9

Rowley Birkin QC

any more opinions lads?

they are greatly appreciated. Myself an the oul fella have been going round in circles for bout 6 weeks now so any fresh opinions are highly valued.

bazz26

bigkev49 wrote:

any more opinions lads?

they are greatly appreciated. Myself an the oul fella have been going round in circles for bout 6 weeks now so any fresh opinions are highly valued.

Does it have to be a 2007, if not you could get a 2006 Honda Accord 2.2 diesel Executive for under €39k. They are very well equipped these days, the diesel has leather electric seats, climate control and electric sunroof, 6 disc cd changer., etc as standard. The diesel is super quite, smooth and can give you good economy. It will also have 2 of the 3 years still left on the manufacturer's warranty.

Spit62500

WildWater wrote:

In my experience the absolute worst thing about buying a Toyota is the sales people in the dealerships. Unfriendly, unhelpful and unknowledgeable, and unwilling to do anything other than the most basic sales pitch. :mad:

Would agree where a few of the Dublin dealers are concerned. Had the opposite experience in Naas last week and ended up buying a car, partly because of the hassle free experience. Even the receptionist seemed to enjoy her job which isn't always the case.

Moanin

Biro wrote:

Completely different engine. More refined and much smoother and more linear power delivery. Overall would be a lot faster than the 130 of old.

The 2.0tdi is 140bhp in both the passat and the A4.Being an A4 owner I would go for the passat.The most influencing factor for me is the rear and front leg space.The Passat is far more spacious and airy.Take the 2.0tdi for a spin.The torque is amazing.It is fairly similar to the 130bhp I have in my A4

maidhc

Volvo s40 2.0 HDI: It is only a Focus in drag, and a bit small, but Ford make an inherently more reliable car than VAG, and the S40 is as big as the A4.

The grandfather has a Passat TDi 105bhp. Apart from the crap engine, it is very badly built, and a bit rattley now at 40k kms. The electric handbrake is a horrendous heap of junk that randomly refuses to release. And the car cuts out randomly, and will stall if you look at it sideways when cold.

Rowley Birkin QC

bazz26 wrote:

Does it have to be a 2007, if not you could get a 2006 Honda Accord 2.2 diesel Executive for under €39k.

Yeah its a new car that he is looking at. Cheers for the suggestion though.

maidhc wrote:

Apart from the crap engine, it is very badly built, and a bit rattley now at 40k kms. The electric handbrake is a horrendous heap of junk that randomly refuses to release.

We had the Passat for about an hour and were not impressed by the build quality at all, it had a number of rattles, the dash seemed cheap and that electric handbrake business does not inspire confidence at all.

hiscan

Biro wrote:

The reason for the big difference is the VRT. Put it this way, it's a lot better to spend 35k on a 2.0tdi passat with a few extras than 39k on a 1.9 A4 with nothing. Audi are charging a grand per ring!
The 1.9 is nearly end of life anyway, so in a couple of years time people will have forgotten about it, and the 2.0 might be worth something back ina trade over a 1.9

this is true but would the passat still lose its value quicker than the audi no matter how many extras was on the passat?

maidhc

hiscan wrote:

this is true but would the passat still lose its value quicker than the audi no matter how many extras was on the passat?

In actual terms the VW will cost less to keep. It is a cheaper car to begin with.

BostonB

Why not a Honda?

ianbrennan2000

volvo s40 2.0td sport
comes fully loaded with leather,a/c etc
around 34000-35000

Rowley Birkin QC

@ ianbrennan

the volvo "build your car" feature isnt working at the moment. what kind of kit would you be getting for 36k??

where does the s60 fall into the scheme of things?

plonk

ianbrennan2000 wrote:

volvo s40 2.0td sport
comes fully loaded with leather,a/c etc
around 34000-35000

Second this one of the nicest driving positions comfortable seats lovely layout this is a great car. I drove my cousins and its fantastic but someone crashed into while it was parked and he decided to get a passat--

his words--- worst decision ever hes getting a new volvo in march

Rowley Birkin QC

Been reading up a bit more on the 2.0 TDi engine and its becoming clearer and clearer that its a far superior engine when paired against the 1.9. Time to ring the dealer methinks.

Biro

If you're thinking of an S40 then you may aswell include a 159 in the search. Might aswell have a nice looking car while it depreciates!

DanThe

How about you spent 20K on a 03 A4 130 bhp TDi and put the other 19K back under the matress.

or you could buy a new octavia and sell it in a year or two and only loose a few grand on it. then maybe there will be something thats actually worth 40K, which is still a shed load of cash. Skinflint me

Or how about the IS 220D or 320D?

Biro

320d would be a good machine alright, if a little bland and sparsly populated with extras, and a little small in the back. IS220d I haven't driven yet, didn't get all that good of a write up, but at that price anyway I'd just go for the accord.

prospect

Biro wrote:

If you're thinking of an S40 then you may aswell include a 159 in the search. Might aswell have a nice looking car while it depreciates!

Also the Ford Focus. The S40 is just a Focus, with glad rags on...

Rowley Birkin QC

Biro wrote:

If you're thinking of an S40 then you may aswell include a 159 in the search. Might aswell have a nice looking car while it depreciates!

Ah yes, the much quoted 33% return on list price after 36000 miles statistic that Ive seen on a lot of websites since last night!! "Run Away!":D

Biro wrote:

320d would be a good machine alright, if a little bland and sparsly populated with extras, and a little small in the back. IS220d I haven't driven yet, didn't get all that good of a write up, but at that price anyway I'd just go for the accord.

Yeah the standard kit in the 320d is ridiculous and to be honest we werent impressed by the look of the new BM's. Bit bland and boring.

IS220D starts somewhere around €46k (i think,open to corrections) so is well out of budget.

Had a chat last night with dad and passed on the points raised on the forum. The fact that the A4 is changing at the end of the year concerns him, as does the worries raised about the age and performance of the 1.9TDi lump as opposed to the new 2.0TDi. The Volvo, Mondeo and Accord didnt appeal to him, Volvo for proximity of dealership and depreciation, Mondeo through general distrust of Ford and the Accord for no good reason at all, he just didnt like it! I was very impressed by the various 06 Accords suggested but he is the man with the cash so its not a runner.Also its a 07 car he is looking for.

Could someone do me a comparison of the 2.0 TDi A4 over the 1.9TDi? MPG,Service Intervals, Resale etc.

Again thanks for all the help, advice and patience.

Edit: Spelling mistakes, they make me cross!

ninty9er

Spit62500 wrote:

WildWater wrote:

In my experience the absolute worst thing about buying a Toyota is the sales people in the dealerships. Unfriendly, unhelpful and unknowledgeable, and unwilling to do anything other than the most basic sales pitch. :mad:

Would agree where a few of the Dublin dealers are concerned. Had the opposite experience in Naas last week and ended up buying a car, partly because of the hassle free experience. Even the receptionist seemed to enjoy her job which isn't always the case.

There's always a queue to see a good salesman in any dealership, but I find it more so with my uncle in the Toyota dealership, other people come up and hassle the salespeople when they're already with someone

All marques will have varying customer service depending on the dealership. I'd put a complaint in if you end up buying.

Merc & VW customer Service are the most varying, but mainly at the lower end of the scale

Skoda's prob the best value for money but you'll be locked into the brand if you want anything back on it. Same goes for a Fiat Croma, which is a decent car by all accounts.

What about an IS220 or a Saab 9-3???

ninty9er

the Lexus and Saab aren't the cheapest, sorry!!! and the Saab will depreciate like it's Vectra sister (if not worse), but still has different plant under the bonnet AFAIK

Biro

Saab and Vectra are using the 1.9 diesels from the Fiat/Alfa group. Excellent engine.
Pity he doesn't like the Accord. Thats most people in this country though, for no real reason they don't like Hondas. Best car maker of them all really!
You can't really compare the VAG 2.0 to the 1.9 on paper, figures won't seem like all that much. It's slightly less economical, more power and torque, more refined and far better power delivery, which is the key point in this engine.
He has no option now cause he's so fussy ( ) but to go for the A4. Just buy the one he can afford and don't worry any more about it.
It'll depreciate a little more than the beemer but less than most in that range.

3ps

don't overanalyse... it's just a car!

step 1) of the cars you like find ones that will actually physically suit your needs.. perhpas the A4 is too small for 3 in the rear, depending on usage.

step 2) based on what I've read here... with the remaining list just buy the one that will depreciate the least, or that you think will.

Rowley Birkin QC

Well lads its been a long struggle but an Audi A4 1.9TDi LE has been ordered as of ten minutes ago for nearly €4k off list price so the big fellas happy.

Thanks for all the comments,opinions and advice.

m_stan

bigkev49 wrote:

...for nearly €4k off list price...

so what was the total as a matter of interest ? I'm looking at buying a used one of these, so interested in the depreciation in the first few years...

Rowley Birkin QC

m_stan wrote:

so what was the total as a matter of interest ? I'm looking at buying a used one of these, so interested in the depreciation in the first few years...

€37300 all told. The list price varied between garages but the average was about €41k.

You can buy a used one from here in about 3 years if your interested!

unkel

bigkev49 wrote:

Well lads its been a long struggle but an Audi A4 1.9TDi LE has been ordered as of ten minutes ago for nearly €4k off list price so the big fellas happy

Nice one, that's about 10% discount. Result!

Pity so few people in Ireland seem to negotiate (hard) when buying a brand new car

Moanin

bigkev49 wrote:

Well lads its been a long struggle but an Audi A4 1.9TDi LE has been ordered as of ten minutes ago for nearly €4k off list price so the big fellas happy.

Thanks for all the comments,opinions and advice.

Whats the LE? Sure its not the SE version?

Rowley Birkin QC

Moanin wrote:

Whats the LE? Sure its not the SE version?

Yup its a limited edition model. It has chrome surrounds and quattro wheels, also has an upgraded stereo and leather steering wheel. doesnt have the multi function steering wheel of the SE or the horrilbe walnut surrond of the SE either.

Not a huge difference all told but the wheels are nice and the chrome adds a lil something extra.

Thats more or less it there, not sure if the wheels are exactly the same but you get the impression.

unkel

Biro wrote:

most people in this country though, for no real reason they don't like Hondas

I think a lot of people in this country do like Hondas

But for some reason Honda has been pricing their cars here at premium rates in recent years compared with the competition, which makes them too expensive

Hondas in the UK are priced more realistically and attract a higher market share iirc. Anybody any stats on Honda sales as a percentage of all cars sold here and in the UK?

bazz26

unkel wrote:

I think a lot of people in this country do like Hondas

But for some reason Honda has been pricing their cars here at premium rates in recent years compared with the competition, which makes them too expensive

Hondas in the UK are priced more realistically and attract a higher market share iirc. Anybody any stats on Honda sales as a percentage of all cars sold here and in the UK?

Agree, the Accord is expensive but look at it another way. The 2.2 diesel Accord costs around €43k, it comes with a very high standard spec as standard including leather electric seats, cruise control, climate control, electric sunroof, cd changer, etc.

Take the A4/Passat and tick the options that the Accord has and just watch the price take off. Some people would be quite happy to pay for the privilage of having the VAG A4/Passat. I just don't see what makes the A4/Passat more acceptable as a premium car over the Accord in this case to some people myself.

Biro

bazz26 wrote:

Agree, the Accord is expensive but look at it another way. The 2.2 diesel Accord costs around €43k, it comes with a very high standard spec as standard including leather electric seats, cruise control, climate control, electric sunroof, cd changer, etc.

Take the A4/Passat and tick the options that the Accord has and just watch the price take off. Some people would be quite happy to pay for the privilage of having the VAG A4/Passat. I just don't see what makes the A4/Passat more acceptable as a premium car over the Accord in this case to some people myself.

I'd go for the accord over the A4 or 320d.

what_car

bigkev49 wrote:

any more opinions lads?

they are greatly appreciated. Myself an the oul fella have been going round in circles for bout 6 weeks now so any fresh opinions are highly valued.

dont buy an a4 very small car, more expensive to service, and same engine as vw! 7k difference between the a4 and toyota...

i sold a volvo and went back to toyota and i got the luna 2.0d 6 speed saloon
its very well spec'd and is very roomy.. im averaging over 50 mpg on it...

also 3 yr warranty and vw only give 2. also toyota reliable!

check out the prices of the avensis 2.0D on carzone they hold their value well, and would be easier to sell on second hand !