[Article] Agency to name proposed stops on Metro West

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times
Mon, Jan 15, 2007

The locations of up to 21 metro stops on Dublin's proposed Metro West route are to be revealed by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) today.

Two main route options for the public transport alternative to the M50, as it is described, will link the proposed Metro North line south of Dublin airport, with Tallaght town centre.

The identification of proposed stops takes place as part of the public consultation process for the surface-level metro project which is to be completed by 2014.

On the first or "inner" route option, the stops include Silloge, just south of Dublin airport. Travelling anti-clockwise the remaining proposed stations are Meakstown; Huntstown; Cappoge; Abbotstown; the National Aquatic Centre at Blanchardstown; Blanchardstown Shopping Centre; Millennium Park; Porterstown; a possible stop at Liffey Valley Shopping Centre; Liffey Valley; Rowlagh; Fonthill; Clondalkin or a possible stop at Clondalkin west; St Bridgid's; Newlands; Belgard, Colbert's Fort and Tallaght east.

While up to 19 stops are included, not all are to be built in the first phase according to the RPA. Stops identified as second phase are those at Silloge; Meakstown; Cappoge, Newlands and Colbert's Fort. The stop at Liffey Valley Shopping Centre is being proposed in addition to Liffey Valley, but at Clondalkin the final route will include just one stop, either in Clondalkin village or outside it at Clondalkin west.

Route two or the "outer" orbital option envisages up to 21 stops. These are Silloge - on a more northerly site closer to Dublin airport; Harristown; Huntstown; Cappoge; Abbotstown; Ballycoolin; Blanchardstown Institute of Technology; Blanchardstown (Whitestown); Millennium Park; Porterstown; Lucan (Willsbrook); Ballyowen; Kishoge; Grange Castle; Priest Town; Cheeverstown; Cookstown; Tallaght hospital and Tallaght.

Metro stops at Silloge, Meakstown, and Cappoge are again earmarked for phase two as is Priest Town. The RPA has not indicated when phase two is to take place although it is expected it will depend on development in the area. Both route options would interchange with Iarnród Éireann's Maynooth and Kildare commuter lines and regional lines at Porterstown and either Fonthill or Kishoge, respectively.

Metro West will ultimately be between 24 and 28km (17 miles) long and construction is expected to take up to five years.

The RPA has refused to say how much the route will cost, citing commercial sensitivity about the project which is to be built as a public private partnership. However, the surface-level route is not expected to be as costly as an underground metro.

Issues which may be contentious are the possible route of the tram through Clondalkin village where some buildings may be demolished and the Liffey Valley Shopping centre which represents a small detour.

The plans will go on display at the Great Southern Hotel, Dublin airport today from 11am to 8pm. Other public displays will be held at Fingal County Council offices at Blanchardstown on Wednesday; the Clarion Hotel Liffey Valley on Friday and South Dublin County Council offices on Monday, January 22nd.

© 2007 The Irish Times

Navan Junction

Any guesses on the journey time?

Mayshine

It not going to be open for 7 years and they still won't have all the proposed stations build. Pretty crap if you ask me

tba

Why the hell is the metro line outside the M50?

Winters

45 to 50 mins.

strassenwolf

Winters wrote:

45 to 50 mins.

Is that stickin' in your craw, NJ?

If Winters is right, €1 Billion to cut about 5 minutes off the public transport journey time between Swords (North-East of County Dublin) and Tallaght (South-West of County Dublin), compared to a metro north/LUAS journey. One of the longest journeys that it will be possible to make on the whole RPA network.

It puts the ca. €70 million it would cost to reopen Navan-Drogheda in perspective.

Is it stickin' in your craw?

It should be.:(

bk

strassenwolf wrote:

If Winters is right, €1 Billion to cut about 5 minutes off the public transport journey time between Swords (North-East of County Dublin) and Tallaght (South-West of County Dublin), compared to a metro north/LUAS journey. One of the longest journeys that it will be possible to make on the whole RPA network.

That isn't really the point.

If you're in Swords and we didn't have Metro West, how would you get to Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, etc. via public transport?

Metro West isn't really about making long journeys across it's entire length (of course you can and people will), rather it is about making short journeys from Blanchardstwon, Liffey Valley, etc. to the nearest DART station along the Kildare and Maynooth lines or the Metro North up North or the Luas in Tallaght, which you will transfer unto to bring you into the city.

strassenwolf

bk wrote:

That isn't really the point.

If you're in Swords and we didn't have Metro West, how would you get to Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, etc. via public transport?

Metro West isn't really about making long journeys across it's entire length (of course you can and people will), rather it is about making short journeys from Blanchardstwon, Liffey Valley, etc. to the nearest DART station along the Kildare and Maynooth lines or the Metro North up North or the Luas in Tallaght, which you will transfer unto to bring you into the city.

Unfortunately, bk, a lot of those short journeys could be achieved by putting in an appropriate bus route, to bring people to the nearest rail line,

The cost of building a rail line, such as the metro west, to bring people these short distances will be quite large.

The money saved by not building the metro west, could be used to bring people like NJ, and other residents of Navan, into Dublin. That money could also be used to improve rail services between other locations and Dublin.

As I said before, on another thread, the order of priorities which is generally followed around the world, when public transport is being developed, is the following:

1) Into the city;
2) Across the city;
3) Around the city.

tba

Actually across the city would be priority, followed by around the city (centre) and into the city.

This allows for 2 stop journeys to any station, something which has yet to be achieved in Dublin.

You seem to be suggesting the linear mode of residental transport supply which if continued would have you commuting from New York.

strassenwolf

tba wrote:

Actually across the city would be priority, followed by around the city (centre) and into the city.

This allows for 2 stop journeys to any station, something which has yet to be achieved in Dublin.

You seem to be suggesting the linear mode of residental transport supply which if continued would have you commuting from New York.

Sorry, I'm not altogether sure that I understand this post. I have difficulty with the suggestion that "across the city" would amount to higher demand than "into the city". Can you show us a city where this is the case? I also have difficulty understanding why "into the city" is seemingly the least favourable of the three options. Could you indicate a city, perhaps? And, I hope you'll forgive me, but I don't understand the "New York" reference. This is supposed to be a public transport sysytem for the Greater Dublin Area. The locations mentioned so far in this thread were Swords, Dublin, Tallaght, Navan and Drogheda.

Please don't tell me the Big Apple is trying to muscle in on the whole T21 thing.

tba

Having a series of metros that crisscross the city and each other alllows for an intergrated transport system.







Notice the barcelona system (a city of similar scale if not population) has lines that move towards the city and return to the same side of the city eg. L4.

This would be the equivalent of a line running from tallaght moving through the docklands and returning to swords. Such a line would intersect both luas lines, the dart, and numerous bus routes. (This is just an example btw).

I should at this point state that I do not think this ring rail is a good idea, as has been said it is to travel to your main rail line in and out of the city. It promotes people to live along rail lines. Now there is only so much room around the lines and inpaticualr at the rail stops. So as space becomes limited or too expensive you move to the next stop out untill you are living in sligo, or as I said in jest New York.

Adopting a lattice of metros/luas/dart/lights rail would insure that the city of Dublin is served, not the county towns of navan, Portlaoise, drogheda, gorey, trim, carlow etc...

At a later stage these metro lines can be extended but a strong central network needs to be created.

Subways to scale <--Notice the sprawling nature of the american systems, and note their fondness for private transport.

strassenwolf

tba wrote:

Notice the barcelona system (a city of similar scale if not population) has lines that move towards the city and return to the same side of the city eg. L4.

But, as far as I can see, there are 7 lines in Barcelona, none of which is comparable to the orbital metro proposed for Dublin. There are Red, Grey, Green, Orange, Purple, Light Blue and Dark Blue lines in Barcelona. The red and grey lines travel through the "Arc de Triomf" station, the green, purple and orange lines travel through the "Passeig de Gracia" station, while the light and dark blue travel through the "Diagonal" station. (Please forgive my spelling). The three stations mentioned all appear to be in the centre of the city, and the distance between the "Arc de Triomf" and "Diagonal" stations is about 1.2 km, as the crow flies, with "Passeig de gracia" being about, at most, 600m from either of them. I've never been in the city, but I do know that the "Diagonal" is a major thoroughfare through the centre.

On first impressions, it does look rather different to what is proposed for the metro west, which will have no direct interaction with the city centre, but I suppose we'll have to hear from other people who know Barcelona well before we draw our conclusions.

But, in the absence of further information, I don't think Barcelona is the example we're looking for.

As for London, as a group on this board we've been through this before on another thread. All the metro (underground) lines in London run through either the City or the West End, "Central London" if you will, given that the city is so big. The circle line, which is an orbital route, though I would think quite a different one to the orbital metro a la the metro west, has eight stations within the City (the so-called "square mile). The only line which does not run through central London, is thse East London line, which has the lowest patronage of all the lines.

I'm going to have a good look at Vienna, and thank you very much for posting it, but I'm not confident that I'm going to find an orbital metro.

Bis Morgen.

spacetweek

strassenwolf wrote:

Is that stickin' in your craw, NJ?

If Winters is right, €1 Billion to cut about 5 minutes off the public transport journey time between Swords (North-East of County Dublin) and Tallaght (South-West of County Dublin), compared to a metro north/LUAS journey. One of the longest journeys that it will be possible to make on the whole RPA network.

It puts the ca. €70 million it would cost to reopen Navan-Drogheda in perspective.

Is it stickin' in your craw?

It should be.:(

Not sticking in mine. 5 mins off the PT journey from Swords to Tallaght, what planet are you living on. There's bus 239 which runs from the Blanch Centre to Clondalkin. I used to pick it up at Lucan and get dropped off at Nangor Rd. It's about 4km and took 60 minutes at rush hour. 60 minutes. It was only slightly faster than walking speed. The main reason was gridlocked traffic and also because of the lack of decent road links across the Liffey - the only way is the winding back roads.

Your comment about diverting the money to the N3 is strange, since they're both being built anyway. You're suggesting the government give with one hand and take with the other.

Some people have been commenting that we don't need Metro West, that it should be a QBC or something. Buses in west dublin are gridlocked due to traffic and something high capacity is desperately needed, not more half-measures. Also if we've learned one lesson in Ireland in the recent past it's that whatever you build, people will flock to it and it will become maxed out faster than you expected, e.g. DART, luas, M50, airports, etc. So build big with more capacity than you think you'll need. It'll probably turn out that you needed it all after all.

spacetweek

tba wrote:

Notice the barcelona system (a city of similar scale if not population) has lines that move towards the city and return to the same side of the city eg. L4.
This would be the equivalent of a line running from tallaght moving through the docklands and returning to swords. Such a line would intersect both luas lines, the dart, and numerous bus routes. (This is just an example btw).

The two DART lines are going to be like that. Line 1 will run from Balbriggan to Hazelhatch via An Lar. Line 2 will run from Maynooth to Bray via An Lar.

tba wrote:

I should at this point state that I do not think this ring rail is a good idea, as has been said it is to travel to your main rail line in and out of the city. It promotes people to live along rail lines. Now there is only so much room around the lines and inpaticualr at the rail stops. So as space becomes limited or too expensive you move to the next stop out untill you are living in sligo, or as I said in jest New York.

Wonderful, so now we're not supposed to live along rail lines.

strassenwolf

spacetweek wrote:

Not sticking in mine. 5 mins off the PT journey from Swords to Tallaght, what planet are you living on.

Earth.

There's bus 239 which runs from the Blanch Centre to Clondalkin. I used to pick it up at Lucan and get dropped off at Nangor Rd. It's about 4km and took 60 minutes at rush hour. 60 minutes. It was only slightly faster than walking speed. The main reason was gridlocked traffic and also because of the lack of decent road links across the Liffey - the only way is the winding back roads.

A lot of the problem with the gridlock on the M50 is because public transport is so poor. From Naas, Sallins, Lucan, etc. From locations such as those there is no realistic alternative but to drive into town, and that creates a lot of traffic. For example, for many of the locations along the Sallins line, there are about 12 trains per day, repeat per day, into the centre of Dublin.

Hopefully, the work on the Kildare line will improve this. And building something like the interconnector would improve this much further. Both for delivering people along the Sallins line and along the Maynooth line.

I'm afraid much more thought needs to be given to construction or improvement of lines which deliver people into the city.

My argument against the metro west is that it will, in itself, not make a big difference to the situation along the M50, as the biggest issue for most people along the M50 is, in order of priority, to get into town, to get across town and to get around town. As it is in any suburb in Dublin or any district in any city in the world.

The metro west is an easy option, travelling as it does through meadows in West and North Dublin.

The tough decisions about travel directly into Dublin will have to be taken at some stage.

tba

spacetweek wrote:

Wonderful, so now we're not supposed to live along rail lines.

Yes you are, but if we comtimue to use the city centre as a destination we think only of movement in and out of the city. You should be able to travel to any other station on a transport network changing only once, maybe if pushed, twice but it should be the exception.

Look at any European metro line, pick two random stops and see how many times you have to change to get to it.

Now assume the metro west goes ahead, as does the north. It leaves huge chunks of the city without a reasonable distance to a light rail system, yet we for some reason all the shopping centres outside the M50 are linked up.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4590/transye8.gif

bk

tba wrote:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4590/transye8.gif

Your second image is wrong, it ignores both of the cross city Dart lines (Kildare and Maynooth) and the Luas lines.

The result of the T21 plan will actually look very similar to your third map, when you include Dart and Luas. The only bit missing is continuing Metro West south-east to meet the Dart:

http://www.transport21.ie/MAPS/TRANSPORT_21_MAPS/Navigation.html

Why do people keep ignoring the developments to the Dart under T21. When you take into account the interconnector, Metro West makes lots of sense.

I completely agree that it would be preferable to have a Metro line direct from the City to Tallaght and another to Blancharstown and another to Liffey Valley, etc. But the expense would be absolutely massive and for the moment, far more expensive then we can afford.

Instead they are building an orbital line which will allow you to get from these places to the city center in a very reasonable time via one change to either Dart or Metro North.

This line will be built for a comparatively very low price as it will all be overground, through green fields and heavily financed by public-private partnerships with property developers who will be building apartments along it.

The question I have is, why wouldn't you build it?

It seems like a no brainer to me.

strassenwolf

But a lot of them will not be one-change journeys.

Clonsilla-Heuston, Islandbridge-Leixlip, Adamstown-Coolmine. These will all realistically be two-change journeys between suburbs in the west of Dublin, even with the metro west in situ.

Of course, I wouldn't imagine there'll be a huge number of people making those journeys, compared to the number of people in those locations trying to get into Dublin. But it should indicate that the metro west is not the answer to the problems of travel in west Dublin.

Navan Junction

I don't disagree with Metrowest in one sense, and linking it to shopping centres is probably a good idea, planning a line before the greenfield areas that it will pass through is good too.

But I can't for the life of me understand why there isn't an "M50" bus service already (using the hard-shoulder at peak time?).

The 17A, 220, 76B and 17 are not enough, and are a joke to some extent.

Take a person living in Lucan, hoping to take public transport to work in Blanch - next to impossible even though they are very close.

Navan Junction

Oh, and I'm not confident it will keep moving quickly after the election

tba

bk wrote:

Your second image is wrong, it ignores both of the cross city Dart lines (Kildare and Maynooth) and the Luas lines.

The result of the T21 plan will actually look very similar to your third map, when you include Dart and Luas. The only bit missing is continuing Metro West south-east to meet the Dart:

http://www.transport21.ie/MAPS/TRANSPORT_21_MAPS/Navigation.html

Sorry I should have said that was a generic example not based in scale or fact. I used it to show the problem in simplified means.

Another interesting image, the Barcelona metro overlayed in red over Dublin. A possible metro west is shown in purple. Notice the almost ring road link mentality of the west line. (From Irish Times metro.PDF )



An for the record I think Barcelona has a great metro system, fast, efficient and in comparative terms similar to Dublin except for the slightly larger population.

bk

strassenwolf wrote:

Clonsilla-Heuston, Islandbridge-Leixlip, Adamstown-Coolmine. These will all realistically be two-change journeys between suburbs in the west of Dublin, even with the metro west in situ.

Yes, but they are unusual journeys. Most people would just want to get into the city centre and that is just one change for all areas on Metro West.

Even if you wanted to get to Heuston, two changes wouldn't be that bad as long as the Dublin Transport Authority lines up arrival and departure times of all the intersecting services properly.

Navan Junction wrote:

Oh, and I'm not confident it will keep moving quickly after the election

Perhaps, but then it isn't due until 2012, which is about the time of the next election after this one coming up, so it would need to be processing well or they would be in trouble for that election.

In some ways if you look at T21, with many of the projects completing in 2012, it is sort of setting the government up for a 2012 elections, in the same way that the SSIA's are doing for this election.

If whatever government get into power this year wants to stay in power in 2012, most of the T21 projects need to be completed or nearing completion or they will be punished by the public who are demanding better public transport.

I also don't see why it shouldn't progress, it is one of the cheapest and easiest of the T21 projects, heavily funded by public private partnerships and badly wanted by the property developers (this should act in its favour for a change with FF and all the developers in the Galway races.)

Can I ask, what do you all propose instead of Metro West?

How do you all propose serving the people of Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, etc. with public transport, without Metro West?

The populations of all the areas that are proposed to be served by Metro West are going to explode over the next 20 years due to Dublin expanding and this will happen even if Metro West isn't in place. Hell it is happening right now.

For a change or government is actually doing the right thing, putting public transport in place before (as) it happens and when it is cheap, rather then waiting for the problem to develop and then trying to fix it. I think it should be commended.

Navan Junction

bk wrote:

Can I ask, what do you all propose instead of Metro West?

Not proposing anything instead of Metro West.

In fact I'm happy to see that some new developments can be designed and developed around it, and I am delighted that the shopping centres can be linked.

I'm also delighted that at some point in the future, my son might be able to travel to tallaght from Navan be rail etc.

What I don't understand is that there isn't a interim bus version of it being put in place now, or why there isn't an M50 bus service already in existance.

There should already be a Tallaght to Swords bus via Ballymun and the Airport.

Stating all this though is not knocking the concept of Metro West.

Dublin (inside & on the M50) is the employment centre of the GDA - anything that takes traffic off the M50 and approaches is good.

But the cynical part of me finds it incredible that the long-term option is worked on and the short term ignored

bk

Navan Junction wrote:

What I don't understand is that there isn't a interim bus version of it being put in place now, or why there isn't an M50 bus service already in existance.

.....

But the cynical part of me finds it incredible that the long-term option is worked on and the short term ignored

I couldn't agree more, my question was more to the other posters who seem to be dead set against Metro West.

I suppose there is no bus service because DB hasn't been getting any new buses from the government, it would be terribly stuck in traffic and not very attractive to commuters, the interconnecting transport services that will make Metro West useful and a success such as Metro North and the two new DART lines aren't in place yet, thus less demand for such a service.

However having said all that, there still should be such a bus service.

strassenwolf

bk wrote:

Can I ask, what do you all propose instead of Metro West?

How do you all propose serving the people of Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, etc. with public transport, without Metro West?

bk, the point here is that the metro west is not a priority.

The reason why it's currently so high up the public transport pecking order is that, for much of its route, nobody's going to complain about it - simply because there's nobody living anywhere near large chunks of it. This is a feature which it shares with things like the LUAS extension to Cherrywood (and Bray), the LUAS extension to citywest and the LUAS extension to the Point Depot. There's nobody currently living very near any of them, so nobody will complain and the projects will get delivered "on time and on budget."

There does seem to be a push to build the metro to Swords, which is alone in being a project through properly populated areas. While I think it's a great idea, I'm not confident that it will not be delayed beyond its expected opening date by numerous inquiries, reports, court appeals, etc, which will all have to be dealt with. The current issue with whether it goes underground or overground in Ballymun is just a taste of the battle which lies ahead.

It does have to be said, though, that if it was not a metro line between the Airport and the city, this government would not be pushing it so hard. If it were anywhere else in the city, I'd guess they'd be shying away from building it, no matter how good the business case.

They've put the LUAS from Finglas on the back burner, even though that is a higher density suburb than probably anywhere along the metro west.

They've put the metro from Tallaght to the city on the back burner, if it is even still on the agenda, though it would pass through areas of the city which have much higher densities than anything along the metro west.

People in suburbs along either of those routes can kiss goodbye to their chances of having a rail connection to the Maynooth line, the DART line, the Kildare line or even the city centre, for many years to come.

So, in answer to your question:D, unfortunately buses are, for the moment, the answer. What is the big bonus at the moment with having a connection between the metro west and the Kildare line? Take the metro west to the Kildare line, and then wait as much as two hours, under the current arrangements, for a train as far as Heuston?

Even with the metro west you would still be looking at a two-change journey to get to any of the busier parts of the city centre, like O'Connell Street.

A two-change journey to get to the city centre, on rail services, is not indicative of good planning.

It's true that the situation along the Maynooth line should improve rapidly once the Docklands station is open. But the focus needs to be on improving it further, and building other lines into the city, like the Finglas LUAS or the Tallaght metro. And while everybody knows that the interconnector is likely to run at about half of the capacity of comparable tunnels in other cities, if even half, at least building it would be a start.

One of the messages which has been peddled by the proponents of the metro west is that it will connect with both the Maynooth and Kildare lines. There's not a whole lot of point in doing that, unless these lines have the required capacity.

So, for the moment, buses.:( While the powers that be figure out what the priorities are.

bk

strassenwolf you seem to be very confused about the planned projects under T21 and that is probably colouring your view of Metro West.

strassenwolf wrote:

They've put the LUAS from Finglas on the back burner, even though that is a higher density suburb than probably anywhere along the metro west.

There has never been a planned Luas line to Finglas. One of the proposed Metro North routes goes through Finglas, but it isn't the preferred route and unlikely to be chosen.

There is a proposed Luas line to Liffey Junction, but it was not envisaged going unto Finglas, however it probably will eventually.

Finglas isn't particularly high density, the new apartments around Ashtown are, but they will be serviced by the new Dart line. Places along the Metro West like Blanchardstown are much higher density then Finglas and all new proposed developments in the green field sites along here are high density apartments.

Finglas should end up being served by a local bus service connecting Finglas to the Dart at Ashtown and Metro North.

strassenwolf wrote:

They've put the metro from Tallaght to the city on the back burner,

Again you are confused, there has never been a Metro line proposed to Tallaght, it is already serviced by Luas. You are mixing it up with the Luas green line to Sandyford which was developed to Metro standard and maybe upgraded to Metro in future.

strassenwolf wrote:

if it is even still on the agenda, though it would pass through areas of the city which have much higher densities than anything along the metro west.

Places like Blancardstwon and Tallaght are actually some of the highest density places in the city. All future development close to the Metro West will be 8 to 10 storey apartment buildings. These areas will be far higher density then some housing estates in Finglas and other places closer to the city.

strassenwolf wrote:

So, in answer to your question:D, unfortunately buses are, for the moment, the answer.

LOL, a bus service wouldn't adequately serve the Metro West route due to the awful congestion along the M50.

The problem with your proposal is that it just isn't based in reality.

As you rightly pointed out, the Metro west will be cheap and easy to do now, that is why we should do it now. If we wait 20 years and Dublin West becomes the highest density area in the country (as is projected), it will be far more expensive and difficult to do it then. Since Metro West is so cheap and easy, cancelling it wouldn't really free up much more money to put on any other much more expensive projects like a Metro to Sandyford, etc.

strassenwolf

bk wrote:

strassenwolf you seem to be very confused about the planned projects under T21 and that is probably colouring your view of Metro West.

I think I am getting a bit confused about which of the projects proposed by the Department of Transport or other Government agencies charged with Dublin's transport have actually made it into T21. But let's see.

There has never been a planned Luas line to Finglas. One of the proposed Metro North routes goes through Finglas, but it isn't the preferred route and unlikely to be chosen.

There is a proposed Luas line to Liffey Junction, but it was not envisaged going unto Finglas, however it probably will eventually.

You're absolutely right. There never was a planned LUAS line to Finglas. The LUAS line proposed under "Transport 21" only goes as far as Liffey Junction. I must have been confusing it with the proposed line between Finglas (e.g. the stations at North Road and Jamestown Road) and the city, as seen in "Platform for Change", delivered by the Government agency charged with planning transport in Dublin.

That wasn't a LUAS line. That was a metro line into the city.

Into the city?

T21?: Project dropped.

Finglas isn't particularly high density, the new apartments around Ashtown are, but they will be serviced by the new Dart line. Places along the Metro West like Blanchardstown are much higher density then Finglas and all new proposed developments in the green field sites along here are high density apartments.

Finglas should end up being served by a local bus service connecting Finglas to the Dart at Ashtown and Metro North.

Can you tell us what the densities in these new developments will be. Finglas, as an electoral area, is running at 4,229 people per square kilometre. Are these developments going to be much higher than that?

Again you are confused, there has never been a Metro line proposed to Tallaght, it is already serviced by Luas. You are mixing it up with the Luas green line to Sandyford which was developed to Metro standard and maybe upgraded to Metro in future.

No, I don't think I'm mixing anything up. I certainly hope I'm not. There was a metro line proposed by the Dublin Transportation Office between Tallaght and the city centre, as part of the "Platform for Change" document produced a few years ago, and mentioned above. Going via Kimmage and Harold's Cross.

Another line into the city?

T21?: Project dropped.

Places like Blancardstwon and Tallaght are actually some of the highest density places in the city. All future development close to the Metro West will be 8 to 10 storey apartment buildings. These areas will be far higher density then some housing estates in Finglas and other places closer to the city.

Can you give us the figures for the proposed densities in the new developments?

LOL, a bus service wouldn't adequately serve the Metro West route due to the awful congestion along the M50.

The problem with your proposal is that it just isn't based in reality.

Well what is the reality of the situation? There are currently bus services which do the run between, say, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown. Any indication from the timetables of those buses that a rail line is needed to replace them?

As you rightly pointed out,

well I'm delighted to hear that I haven't gone completely around the bend:p

the Metro west will be cheap and easy to do now, that is why we should do it now. If we wait 20 years and Dublin West becomes the highest density area in the country (as is projected), it will be far more expensive and difficult to do it then. Since Metro West is so cheap and easy, cancelling it wouldn't really free up much more money to put on any other much more expensive projects like a Metro to Sandyford, etc.

Unfortunately, those other lines that have been mentioned are not going to get any cheaper, or any easier, either. By all means set aside a route through which the metro west should travel in the future, and build housing and other developments along the chosen corridor, until the time comes when it would bring real value to the city.

You say that metro west is "so cheap and easy?" that it should be built now. That's not necessarily the way to approach construction of a decent public transport system. Very often lines are "expensive and difficult" to construct. But they may deliver more value in the longer term.

mackerski

strassenwolf wrote:

But a lot of them will not be one-change journeys.

Clonsilla-Heuston,

So travel from Porterstown instead. Back down to one change.

strassenwolf wrote:

Islandbridge-Leixlip,

DART to Pearse, change to Maynooth DART, one change. (and yes, maybe you'll need to walk or bus to the station, c'est la vie...

strassenwolf wrote:

Adamstown-Coolmine.

Go to Porterstown instead. There's nothing there or in Coolmine, so it won't make much difference. The two are near-adjacent anyway. Planned networks are all about offering smart options to users. Anyone who really wants to get door-to-door is free to make that second change, of course.

strassenwolf

Mackerski, you've got to be kidding.

Islandbridge (or Inchicore) to Leixlip. Travel east for a few miles to Pearse, then up the stairs to a train which is heading west of where you started?

Wouldn't it just be better to have better bus services between Islandbridge (or Inchicore) and, say, Clonsilla? That way you end up with a one change journey on public transport, and a no-change journey on rail transport. Rather than what you are suggesting, a one-change journey on rail transport which involves a very large detour in a direction which is the opposite of the desired direction.

spacetweek

strassenwolf wrote:

But a lot of them will not be one-change journeys.

Clonsilla-Heuston, Islandbridge-Leixlip, Adamstown-Coolmine. These will all realistically be two-change journeys between suburbs in the west of Dublin, even with the metro west in situ.

Of course, I wouldn't imagine there'll be a huge number of people making those journeys, compared to the number of people in those locations trying to get into Dublin. But it should indicate that the metro west is not the answer to the problems of travel in west Dublin.

Clonsilla, Leixlip, adamstown - you've chosen towns that are pretty far out. If you are starting or ending your journey in one of those, you have to expect a 3-stage journey.

It shouldn't be a biggie to change twice for journeys like this, so long as they don't feck up the ticketing - Luas and Metro seem likely to be fully integrated from the start, so they only need Luas/Metro and DART integration to get it sorted. Remember people will be using buses a lot less often when all this is built, so integration with those is less important imho.

strassenwolf

spacetweek wrote:

Clonsilla, Leixlip, adamstown - you've chosen towns that are pretty far out. If you are starting or ending your journey in one of those, you have to expect a 3-stage journey.

Well, they're not all that far out. Clonsilla and Coolmine are basically on one side of the Phoenix Park, while Heuston is diagonally across from them on the other side. I would think that a proper bus service should be put in place, but an arrangement where it takes two changes on the rail network to get across the Phoenix Park doesn't look, to me, like the solution.

bk

strassenwolf wrote:

I think I am getting a bit confused about which of the projects proposed by the Department of Transport or other Government agencies charged with Dublin's transport have actually made it into T21. But let's see.

Out of interest I've just taken a look at the Platform for change document and it is an incredible plan. It would be brilliant if we could do all that it planned, but realistically it was far too much, in too short of a period of time.

In comparing it with T21, the T21 seems to incorporate the more important and cost effective elements of the Platform for change plans.

Luas to Finglas:

There was never a Luas planned for Finglas, they planned to run a Luas up the Drumcondra/Swords road, skirting Finglas and heading to the airport.

They also had a Metro that headed straight to the airport right through Finglas.

It seems that these two projects have been merged into Metro North and will follow the Luas alignment. That isn't necessarily a bad idea to save money. The original plan was great but also slightly overkill IMO.

In the T21 there is now a Luas to Liffey Junction, which was originally part of the Metro alignment.

BTW a Luas along Collins Avenue would be great.

Metro to Tallaght

You are right to planned to have both a Luas and Metro heading to Tallaght, with the Metro coming from Stephens Green, through Harolds cross and the Luas following the current alignment.

Again a good idea, but overkill for the moment, but definitely something for the future.

They have also left the Luas through Rathfarnham (south dublin) out and the original Luas to Lucan took a much more useful route then the current plan IMO (less overlap with the interconnector).

BTW, yes, Metro West is part of the plan.

To be honest it is a great plan (it also included the Eastern Bypass and an outer ring road, but not the M50 upgrades), very visionary, but there was absolutely no way it could be all done and in the time scales given. Comparing it to T21, T21 consists of the most important and realistic parts of this plan, while leaving room for the remaining parts to be continued in a post T21 plan.

The things I do see happening in a future T21 plan are:
- Luas green line upgraded to Metro
- Metro through south Dublin maybe heading for Tallaght
- Eastern Bypass
- A few extra minor Luas projects.

strassenwolf wrote:

Can you tell us what the densities in these new developments will be. Finglas, as an electoral area, is running at 4,229 people per square kilometre. Are these developments going to be much higher than that?

I don't have exact numbers but they will be much, much higher density then Finglas. Finglas was developed as a low density urban sprawl area with lots of housing estates. The planners have learned from their mistakes and all the planned developments along Metro West are very, very high density, as in 8 to 10 storey apartment buildings, it is ridiculous to even compare it to Finglas. If you live in Finglas, take a walk down to Ashtwon, it will be similar to all the new apartment developments along the Dart line at Ashtown. Very high density apartment buildings, not housing estates.

strassenwolf wrote:

Unfortunately, those other lines that have been mentioned are not going to get any cheaper, or any easier, either.

As I said the only major line really missing is the Metro to Tallaght, as there is already a Luas going to Tallaght, the makes Metro West more important. Yes another Metro serving the south side of Dublin would be very useful, but I can see why it is the least important of all the developments and therefore dropped from T21, but hopefully included in a future plan.

BTW give the current circumstances, what would you propose to serve Finglas? Maybe a Luas running the Lenght of Collins Avenue, going between the heart of Finglas and running to the Dart in the east, with a connection to Metro north.

I suppose a local bus service running around Finglas, connecting with the Dart and Metro north would be simpler solution.

mackerski

strassenwolf wrote:

Islandbridge (or Inchicore) to Leixlip. Travel east for a few miles to Pearse, then up the stairs to a train which is heading west of where you started?

Seems workable to me - today you'd take one bus into town and another one back out again. And buses are slow, where these train links would be mucho fast. If the journey is fast enough, people will make it in preference to other options. That said...

strassenwolf wrote:

Wouldn't it just be better to have better bus services between Islandbridge (or Inchicore) and, say, Clonsilla? That way you end up with a one change journey on public transport, and a no-change journey on rail transport. Rather than what you are suggesting, a one-change journey on rail transport which involves a very large detour in a direction which is the opposite of the desired direction.

You're quite determined to be confused here, you're going to quite a bit of trouble to achieve said confusion. I wasn't aware that we had ruled out strategic bus links to improve the reach of the new rail lines. In fact, pretty much every advocate of the proposed network (except Metrobest ) has indicated feeder buses as an important element in it.

Yes, such a bus route would be even better than a connection through town. I anticipate that the bus services in areas well served by rail will (as a result of sheer market forces) evolve towards routes either feeding local stations or providing strategic cross-links between existing lines.

In fact, the importance of cross-links is officially acknowledged in the proposals for Metro West.

Victor

strassenwolf wrote:

But a lot of them will not be one-change journeys. Clonsilla-Heuston, Islandbridge-Leixlip, Adamstown-Coolmine.

Change at Pearse.

bk wrote:

There has never been a planned Luas line to Finglas.

It was the route for Metro in PFC and and serveral options for Luas went through Finglas.

There is a proposed Luas line to Liffey Junction, but it was not envisaged going unto Finglas, however it probably will eventually.

There is 'talk' of it doing so post T21.

Finglas isn't particularly high density

Parts of it are.

Places like Blancardstwon and Tallaght are actually some of the highest density places in the city. All future development close to the Metro West will be 8 to 10 storey apartment buildings. These areas will be far higher density then some housing estates in Finglas and other places closer to the city.

Don't confuse height with density. Liberty hall is 17 storeys and nobody lives there (I know people work there).

Since Metro West is so cheap and easy, cancelling it wouldn't really free up much more money to put on any other much more expensive projects like a Metro to Sandyford, etc.

Actually, both Metro West and Metro North have up-front construction costs of "in excess of €1billion"

Ste.phen

How is Metro West so expensive? Is it actually construction costs, or are there significant costs associated with land aquisition, etc?

bk

Victor wrote:

It was the route for Metro in PFC and and serveral options for Luas went through Finglas.

As I clarified in a later post, yes in the original platform for change doc, Metro went through Finglas and Luas skirted it. Under T21 they have both been merged into Metro North.

Victor wrote:

There is 'talk' of it doing so post T21.

I'm not terribly familiar with the area, but looking at a map, I just don't see how a Luas could get from Liffey Junction, into Finglas, without tunneling (which is very unlikely to happen). Would anyone who is more familiar with the area care to comment if there is a possible route?

I suppose a new bridge and some house knocking might make it possible.

Victor wrote:

Parts of it are.

As I already said, the high density parts, like all the new apartments like Royal Canal Park will be serviced by Dart. So we are really only talking about the older, estates area of Finglas.

Victor wrote:

Don't confuse height with density. Liberty hall is 17 storeys and nobody lives there (I know people work there).

But these are actually apartment buildings (typically with ground floor retail), so they will in fact be much higher density. It is the stated goal of the city planners.

Enigma365

Wouldn't it just be better to have better bus services between Islandbridge (or Inchicore) and, say, Clonsilla? That way you end up with a one change journey on public transport, and a no-change journey on rail transport.

Strassenwolf. Do you travel on buses regularly? I know I would prefer a one/two change dart/metro journey 9 times out of 10 instead of a direct bus. This journey would probably be a 30 minute comfortable, timetabled dart trip with one change at pearse. I'd prefer that over a 20 minute uncomfrtable bus journey with an unpredictable timetable and heavily affected by traffic.

Winters

bk wrote:

I'm not terribly familiar with the area, but looking at a map, I just don't see how a Luas could get from Liffey Junction, into Finglas, without tunneling (which is very unlikely to happen). Would anyone who is more familiar with the area care to comment if there is a possible route?.

The original Light Rail Project Office were looking along the lines of tunnelling to south Finglas from Broadstone. The RPA however were looking at elevating it through the industrial estate and onwards to the median of the dual carriageway. Nothing concrete yet tho, sorry about the pun!

bk

Winters wrote:

The original Light Rail Project Office were looking along the lines of tunnelling to south Finglas from Broadstone. The RPA however were looking at elevating it through the industrial estate and onwards to the median of the dual carriageway. Nothing concrete yet tho, sorry about the pun!

That is interesting, I assume the tunnel was for the Metro to Finglas (you can see the tunnel on the project for change doc maps), but that isn't happening now and it would seem to be a too expensive option.

Elevating it seems like a much more reasonable idea.

Winters

Has anyone any feedback from the RPA meetings?

monument

strassenwolf wrote:

Unfortunately, bk, a lot of those short journeys could be achieved by putting in an appropriate bus route, to bring people to the nearest rail line,

The cost of building a rail line, such as the metro west, to bring people these short distances will be quite large.

In city-wide terms in reality, I would have though that distances such as Swords to Blanchardstown or Liffey Valley were medium to long distances, not short distances.

strassenwolf wrote:

As I said before, on another thread, the order of priorities which is generally followed around the world, when public transport is being developed, is the following:

1) Into the city;
2) Across the city;
3) Around the city.

And such is the overall priority in T21…

New Dart lines (into city)
Metro North (will run into city)
Lucan Luas (will run into city)
Extending current Dart lines (will run into city)
Extending current Luas lines (will run into city)
Expanding commuter services (will run into city)

And some of these will create more lines “Across the city”, and will allow for “Into the city” connections.

Navan Junction wrote:

Not proposing anything instead of Metro West.

Just for fun, I will...

http://www.mta.net/projects_programs/orangeline/images/ol_interactive.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LACMTA_Orange_Line

Navan Junction wrote:

What I don't understand is that there isn't a interim bus version of it being put in place now, or why there isn't an M50 bus service already in existance.

I remember asking about that here a few years ago - I got my head bitin off.

Winters wrote:

Has anyone any feedback from the RPA meetings?

I'm thinking of going to one next week.

strassenwolf

monument wrote:

In city-wide terms in reality, I would have though that distances such as Swords to Blanchardstown or Liffey Valley were medium to long distances, not short distances.

They probably would be medium to long, alright. There is a serious question though about the numbers of people who wish to make those journeys in comparison to the numbers who wish to make journeys into the city. And there's a question about how much of a priority should be put on construction of the metro west, at the very least at this stage, while it is still so difficult for many people to get into the city.

Let's look at these journeys and compare them to what might be achieved if lines into the city were built or improved. In this case, just two lines into the city , though there could be other lines eventually built into the city which could achieve other large benefits. Namely, the proposed interconnector, and the Maynooth line in the period after the interconnector is built.

Swords to Blanchardstown, for example. Having the metro west up and running before the proposed interconnector is in place, would most likely involve the following: Swords to Ballymun on metro north, Ballymun to Blanchardstown on the metro west. We don't yet know the journey time, but we can say that scenario involves enabling this particular journey to be done by rail before many people will be able to get readily into town using the interconnector tunnel or the consequently improved Maynooth line.

On the other hand, prioritising the building of the proposed interconnector tunnel and thus improving the performance of the Maynooth line, would enable lots more people to get comfortably into town on those rail lines. The Swords-Blanchardstown journey, in such a scenario, would probably be something like: Swords-Drumcondra on the Metro, Drumcondra to Castleknock on the improved Maynooth line and a shuttle bus to Blanchardstown. A one-change journey on the rail network and a two change journey overall.

It's hard to know which of the Swords-Blanchardstown journeys would be quicker, though my guess is that the first one would be marginally quicker. We'll have to see what journey times are likely on the metro west. But it is clear which of the scenarios would deliver the better system for more people, given that more people wish to travel into the city than wish to travel between Swords and Blanchardstown.

You can do the same thing for Swords-Lucan. A) Swords-Ballymun on the metro north, Ballymun-Lucan on the metro west; or Swords-City, City to most appropriate station on the Kildare line via the interconnector, shuttle bus to Lucan. Again, it's hard to tell which is quicker, though my guess is that scenario (A) would be quicker. However, scenario A offers no improved delivery for people wishing to get to the city, scenario B does.

It gets harder to see what improvement is offered by the metro west for an even longer journey like Swords-Tallaght. No metro west: Swords-O'Connell Bridge on metro north, followed by 14 km on the red LUAS line to Tallaght; or metro west: Swords-Ballymun on metro north, followed by a 24-28 km journey (approx 21 stations) on metro west.

One of the problems here is that a lot of people are assuming that the interconnector will be built, and also that it will be built in the timeframe proposed in T21. They do seem to think that the year 2015 will arrive and it will all just click together snugly into a wonderful system. The assumptions earlier on in this thread that people can "change at Pearse" in order to have a one-change journey are indicative of this.

Sure, I even made that assumption myself in one of my posts!:D

I hope that the interconnector will be built, (along, eventually, with other lines into the city), because I think it could deliver an enormous amount to the city, in combination with the consequently improved Maynooth line, but I am not confident that this is a project which will be delivered "on time", whatever about "on budget".

It is clear to most people that the transport situation in Dublin is nothing short of chronic. If the powers that be are giving priority at this stage to a metro line which is to be built largely through fields, when it is quite clear that this line just cannot deliver value for most people, then I think we can assume that they either don't know how to tackle the real problems, or they're afraid to.

Monument wrote:

And such is the overall priority in T21…

New Dart lines (into city)
Metro North (will run into city)
Lucan Luas (will run into city)
Extending current Dart lines (will run into city)
Extending current Luas lines (will run into city)
Expanding commuter services (will run into city)

Well, can't we get on with the more important of those, for a start?

bk

I understand what you are saying strassenwolf, but I honestly don't believe that Metro West is a higher priority then the Interconnector.

The Interconnector is going to take as long as Metro West, because it is a far more complicated project (tunnelling) and we hear less about it because the RPA who are doing the Metro and are far more transparent and far better at PR then Irish Rail.

If Metro West was cancelled in the morning it wouldn't make a single difference to the interconnector tunnel, as I don't think in can be built any faster.

As for the interconnector not coming in on time and on budget, IR actually has an excellent reputation of coming in on time and on budget. Just look at the Dart station lengthening project or the recent re-signalling projects or even the new Docklans station that is absolutely flying up. IR has a very good reputation of getting things quietly done.

Of course the interconnector is the biggest project they have evet undertaken, by lets be positive about it.

monument

Unless I’m missing his point, he is not saying that Metro West is a higher priority then the Interconnector ("prioritising the building of the proposed interconnector tunnel and thus improving the performance of the Maynooth line, would enable lots more people to get comfortably into town on those rail lines." etc). Not only do I agree, I’d say the interconnector should have one of the highest priorities in T21 (can it not be built any faster?).

The point about Irish rail and PR is a good one, but their PR problems are somewhat due to government level PR focus on Metro and Luas type projects.

The image of the expanded Dart network after the interconnector and the associated electrification of lines is something that has been swept under the carpet compared to the media coverage so-far obtained by the Metro projects.

Victor

You can't just build a tunnel "just like that". The Interconnector is a much more immature project than Metro. The RPA have had years to investigate the Metro route (geology, land ownership, etc.). The same hasn't happened with the Interconnector.

Slice

bk: Metro West isn't really about making long journeys across it's entire length (of course you can and people will), rather it is about making short journeys from Blanchardstwon, Liffey Valley, etc. to the nearest DART station along the Kildare and Maynooth lines or the Metro North up North or the Luas in Tallaght, which you will transfer unto to bring you into the city.

Strassenwolf: As I said before, on another thread, the order of priorities which is generally followed around the world, when public transport is being developed, is the following:

1) Into the city;
2) Across the city;
3) Around the city.

bk: Why do people keep ignoring the developments to the Dart under T21. When you take into account the interconnector, Metro West makes lots of sense.

Anyone from Lucan, Clondalkin or Blanchardstown using MetroWest on completion to get into the South City Centre will discover that they they'll either have to change at Tallaght for a Red line Luas or change somewhere on the Northside for MetroNorth. If they tried to get the 'Dart' on the Kildare commuter line they'll either face a wait of several years while the Interconnector is completed or else they'll have to settle for a suburban commuter service to Heuston (not a regular service off-peak) where they would then have to change again for the Red line Luas or a bus. Or maybe even change for the 'Dart' on the Maynooth line; again not due for completion until several years after MetroWest or settle for a Maynooth commuter service (also not a regular off-peak service) and change in the North city centre for bus or Dart to Tara / Pearse. Altogether it would still be allot quicker to just catch the bus from one of these places direct into town in the meantime. And while everyone is doing this who will be using MetroWest? Those folk who want to go on 'shopping-centre crawls' across Dublin's suburbs??

I don't think so.

mackerski

Slice wrote:

And while everyone is doing this who will be using MetroWest? Those folk who want to go on 'shopping-centre crawls' across Dublin's suburbs??

In the absence of viable city-bound rail links, you'd expect MetroWest's patronage to be made up mostly of people undertaking journeys generally along the corridor itself, probably including a reasonable catchment area reachable by onward bus connections.

Many of the kinds of people who today have little option but to clog up the M50, perhaps?

monument

Victor wrote:

You can't just build a tunnel "just like that". The Interconnector is a much more immature project than Metro. The RPA have had years to investigate the Metro route (geology, land ownership, etc.). The same hasn't happened with the Interconnector.

Victor, I cant see where anybody claimed it can be built ‘just like that’. If you’re answering my question (“can it be built any faster?”) you’re doing so in a manor I’d expect for a government minister, department, agency or semi-state company – ie indirectly and not very clearly.

So, I’ll make the question clearer for you or anybody willing to answer it…

Is there any possibility that the interconnector could be built faster then planned?

bk

sigh, Metro West is due to be completed in 2014 and the Interconnector in 2015. So assuming thet meet their schedule, there shouldn't be much of a gap between the projects.

Slice

mackerski: Many of the kinds of people who today have little option but to clog up the M50, perhaps?

If the solution to the congestion on the M50 was as simple as building a public transport corridor to mirror it then where are the QBCs and 46A-style bus routes serving the places MetroWest will serve when completed?

monument

Slice wrote:

If the solution to the congestion on the M50 was as simple as building a public transport corridor to mirror it then where are the QBCs and 46A-style bus routes serving the places MetroWest will serve when completed?

Err, DB have enough problems trying to fill current QBCs due to the government, how exactly are they to get buses for such new routes, magic?