Subsidised Drinking - hurrah????

MadsL

A new scheme to help rural pubs hit by stricter drink driving laws could be introduced in the next few months. Rural Affairs Minister Eamon O'Cuiv has said the Government will be introducing the measure before the next general election.

Publicans in isolated areas have been complaining about a loss in business since the introduction of mandatory breath-testing last year and are calling for the establishment of public transport services.

Is he for real??
Does anyone think that with Health Service in it's current state we (your taxes for taxis folks) should be subsidising booze cruises for poor deprived 'isolated' areas. My fecking heart bleeds.

Can't believe the opposition (for want of a better term) haven't savaged them on this.

Of course according to a poll for Newstalk today, nearly half (40%) of TDs believe random breath testing in the mornings is a waste of Garda time.

Anyone else outraged?

User45701

They have never handled expenditure well in Ireland so i don't expect them to

MadsL

MadsL wrote:

Is he for real??
Does anyone think that with Health Service in it's current state we (your taxes for taxis folks) should be subsidising booze cruises for poor deprived 'isolated' areas. My fecking heart bleeds.

I'd rather they cut monies spent on roads around Dublin and used that tbh. After all, the rest of the country is supposed to have a bleeding heart for the people who decide to live in West Dublin and are then shocked at the level of traffic...

Colonel Sanders

User45701 wrote:

They have never handled expenditure well in Ireland so i don't expect them to

Exactly, unfortunately our public sector spending is so badly handled i'd expect this kind of nonsense.

gurramok

Deleted User wrote:

I'd rather they cut monies spent on roads around Dublin and used that tbh. After all, the rest of the country is supposed to have a bleeding heart for the people who decide to live in West Dublin and are then shocked at the level of traffic...

I'd rather cut monies spent in isolated areas and spend it in the local urban area than helping some one-off house in the middle of nowhere.
You can't live in an isolated area and expect services to come to you, it should be the other way around, it makes economic sense.
Urban dwellers should expect to be subsidised for taxi/bus fares getting home from the pub like those in isolated areas to be fair.

MontgomeryClift

Free transport to help fund a private enterprise? Why can't the publicans be the ones to provide transport? They're the ones making the fortunes from this legal drug trade.

And yes, you can't live in the back of beyond and expect it all laid on. But if those who have made the mistake of choosing to live in a field want to get a bus to the pub they can hire one or organise one. But expecting 'the state' to provide a free bus service? You don't even get that during the day!

flogen

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Free transport to help fund a private enterprise? Why can't the publicans be the ones to provide transport? They're the ones making the fortunes from this legal drug trade.

I agree; if people aren't willing to get themselves there and back legally they obviously don't want the product that badly. If they don't want the product that badly (i.e., there's no demand) then the supply is cut out. Simple free-market economy - if the demand for chocolate died out tomorrow, would we expect the Government to keep Cadbury's afloat too?

Publicans in even reasonably busy pubs can make good money and can surely subsidise this themselves - better than that, how about all the drinkers put 1 pints worth of money into the pot and pay for a bus or taxi between themselves? (that was fielded before by someone here I think, and frankly it's the most logical suggestion I've heard so far).

ballooba

The publicans in this country have shot themselves in the foot over the last 10 years or so. They continually ramped there prices up to unreasonable levels.

Then when people stopped going to the pub they blamed first the smoking ban and then the drink driving crackdown.

People my age just don't drink in the pub. It's too expensive. When my older siblings where in college they used to talk about drinking in pubs around town like The Bleeding Horse, Hartigans, Russels.

We never did this in college because it was too expensive. A whole generaation has been lost to the pubs imo.

Off sales have gone up, people are drinking at home. My local Offie (Ranelagh) was thronged on New Year's Eve, the local pubs were empty.

The publicans should be providing transport for locals to get to and fro the pub. They should also be lowering their prices to get the numbers back up. Instead they are looking for a handout.

As for this proposal, the title of the article is quite accurate, funny that no one finds it strange however.

Fianna Fáil - The publican party.

sovtek

Two solutions:

1) Seriously ramp up public transport in rural and urban areas
2) Declare the VFI an illegal organisation and arrest every member.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

A whole generaation has been lost to the pubs imo.

The lost generation, a tragedy in modern Ireland...;)

Dunno about Dublin but round these parts the pub trade is the worst one going. Sure many of them are sitting on a valuable asset, but trying to make a living off the 5 people sipping 5 pints each a night has gotta be tough. Most publicans I know have a day job.

LostinBlanch

ballooba wrote:

Fianna Fáil - The publican party.

Now that's not fair, in fact it's a scurrillous accusation to make against the party. Sure Mickey Mac is going to put them in their place and bring in cafe bars all over the place . . . . . . . err maybe not.:o

bonkey

sovtek wrote:

Two solutions:

1) Seriously ramp up public transport in rural and urban areas
2) Declare the VFI an illegal organisation and arrest every member.

3) Do nothing and allow a free market to work the way its supposed to.

There is nothing sacred about pub-owners, nor is there much pride which should come from our having (had) a pub-centric culture. There is certainly nothing honourable about over-the-limit-driving, the reduction in which is allegedly the "problem" being countered here.

I see no reason for intervention.

If and when the members of some number of local villages / townlands put their own money into a minibus to get them en masse to and from the pub, I'll accept that there's a case to be made for public transport supplying the service.

In the meantime, I'll take the stance that its the end of a market who's time was either artificial to begin with, or who's time has passed.

miju

at the end of the day it's a free market economy , it's up the publicans to "improve" their service and if they don't they go under. if they start going down this route then i imagine that Dublin Bus will be free during the rush hour or at least the Nitelink , hell even pay the taxis for us all home at the end of the night.

have people in the country never heard of garden parties FFS , why should the tax payer pick up the transport tab for someone who wants to go on the piss or socialise??????

disgraceful and i reckon FF will get punished for this somewhat in Dublin come election

Sangre

Haven't these people ever heard of a designated driver? One car carries four people, if each person has a car then they can bring home four others. Rotate this every Friday so you're not drinking once every 5 weeks. Ohh boo hoo.

This is a disgrace. Its becoming more and more evident how the publicans run this country. Subisidied taxis for the pissheads. What a joke.

Has anyone seen these bus runs in action?

There is one in my area. Collects about 20 OAPs every couple of weeks. No 'pissheads'. These people live in remote areas. The bus brings them in for a few pints and drops them home. The suggestion that some farmer living 20 miles from the nearest village should host a 'garden party' is a good one, maybe they should go on their Bebo pages and rustle up a crowd...:rolleyes:

bonkey

Sangre wrote:

Haven't these people ever heard of a designated driver? One car carries four people, if each person has a car then they can bring home four others. Rotate this every Friday so you're not drinking once every 5 weeks. Ohh boo hoo.

But then people would complain about the prices of the non-alcoholic bevvies....and that would mean they were complaining about the publicans rather than the government.

Can't be having that. The publican's are the best victim's their money can pay for.

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

There is one in my area. Collects about 20 OAPs every couple of weeks. No 'pissheads'. These people live in remote areas. The bus brings them in for a few pints and drops them home.

But they obviously have cars? Since it's supposedly that they can't go out now because of random breath testing, and they fact they're incapable of not having more than the limit to drink.

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

3) Do nothing and allow a free market to work the way its supposed to.

There is no such thing as a free market...especially in reference to pubs.

If there were a better public transport system, in general, the drink driving would cease to be so widespread.

sovtek

miju wrote:

at the end of the day it's a free market economy , it's up the publicans to "improve" their service and if they don't they go under. if they start going down this route then i imagine that Dublin Bus will be free during the rush hour or at least the Nitelink , hell even pay the taxis for us all home at the end of the night.

...and its up to the government to make sure that an industry doesn't get together and fix/gouge prices....oops

why should the tax payer pick up the transport tab for someone who wants to go on the piss or socialise??????

Because the government is responsible for the public transport infrastructure. It's woeful in the rural and urban areas here.

plonk

Your not getting it 13 pubs in 2006 closed in east galway. Rural pubs now only make money on weekend trade and even thats quiet of late. They charge less than pubs in the cities have less custom and are gettingshafted over it. The goverment have to do something or else every pub will be closed in 10 years. My village used to have 5 pubs and now has 3 and will be down to 2 fairly soon i think.

Maybe what there doing isnt the best idea but something has to be done IMO

bonkey

sovtek wrote:

If there were a better public transport system, in general, the drink driving would cease to be so widespread.

By this logic, the pubs only exist because people were willing to break the law in order to go drinking and are now threatened because fewer people are still willing to continue their illegal ways.

I'm not sure this is a good reason to argue for the protection of a "culture".

If the buses were being provided to combat drink-driving, I could understand that somewhat more and be somewhat more sympathetic...but its not whats happening. They're being suggested because the reduction in drink-driving has had an adverse effect on publicans.

Some cultures are best left in the past. Personally, I believe a drink-oriented society is one of them.

Because the government is responsible for the public transport infrastructure. It's woeful in the rural and urban areas here.

This I agree with. There is a case to be made to improve public transport in general.

Helping out the publicans ain't it....and I'd be highly skeptical if the proposed services will help Mary to the shops. I'll wait and see, but from the OP's quoted piece, I'd doubt it.

Zambia

So everyone seems agreed then no booze buses down the west.

I fail to see the piont in having a Pub in the middle of nowhere where no-one can get to it. Its a bad business model that should not be helped by goverment finance.

Drinking and driving unless a playstation is involved should not be mixed.

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

By this logic, the pubs only exist because people were willing to break the law in order to go drinking and are now threatened because fewer people are still willing to continue their illegal ways.

I'm not sure this is a good reason to argue for the protection of a "culture".

If the buses were being provided to combat drink-driving, I could understand that somewhat more and be somewhat more sympathetic...but its not whats happening. They're being suggested because the reduction in drink-driving has had an adverse effect on publicans.

Some cultures are best left in the past. Personally, I believe a drink-oriented society is one of them.

I dont' give a rats arse for the culture or the publicans either. I'm just suggesting a possible solution to the drink driving problem.

bonkey

sovtek wrote:

I dont' give a rats arse for the culture or the publicans either. I'm just suggesting a possible solution to the drink driving problem.

Whereas the minister is trying to sell it as a solution to the problems caused by a new lack of drink driving, if one is to go by the comments in the OP.

Has drink-driving seriously fallen off that much? If so, is there still a serious problem to be dealt with?

miju

plonk wrote:

My village used to have 5 pubs and now has 3 and will be down to 2 fairly soon i think.

you see this is the problem i think, why does a village need 5 pubs in the first place?

the amount of blink and you miss it villages i've been to where theres about 10 pubs in it is ridiculous and my point still stands why should country people have buses paid for them but people in Dublin must pay , obviously the same applies is reverse

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

The lost generation, a tragedy in modern Ireland...

What i meant is that these people have grown up not going to the pub. The pub is not part of their lives. The publicans would have to make a concerted effort to change this.

Deleted User wrote:

There is one in my area. Collects about 20 OAPs every couple of weeks. No 'pissheads'. These people live in remote areas. The bus brings them in for a few pints and drops them home. The suggestion that some farmer living 20 miles from the nearest village should host a 'garden party' is a good one, maybe they should go on their Bebo pages and rustle up a crowd...:rolleyes:

It's not just OAPs would be seeking to use the proposed system though. My uncle constantly moans at me about not being able to drive to the pub anymore. He's only in his 40s.

Colonel Sanders

are the people proposing this and defending the idea living in the real world? No one likes to see a business go under but why should publicans get more assistance and government sympathy than any other?

After Frankie Dettori's 'magnificent 7' at ascot several independant bookmakers went bust. Did these business men deserve a government hand out? People will shout 'but thats gambling not a business'. Starting any business is a gamble, including buying a pub.

Next we'll be giving out about leisure centres that make a few euros when a subsidised bus brings a load of special needs kids to their facility...

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

Next we'll be giving out about leisure centres that make a few euros when a subsidised bus brings a load of special needs kids to their facility...

Nobody told me about such a service. This is an outrage!!!

Leisure centres aren't the main proponents of those buses to be subsidised.

wow sierra

Deleted User wrote:

I'd rather they cut monies spent on roads around Dublin and used that tbh. After all, the rest of the country is supposed to have a bleeding heart for the people who decide to live in West Dublin and are then shocked at the level of traffic...

Brilliant Conor 74
I cant summon the energy to get involved in this argument again - its a classic urban/rural devide. Suffice to say everyone who lives in rural areas understand that this is a huge problem. Thats mostly what people are complaining about in rural areas these days - and that includes the local guards. I dont care what the politically correct version of this argument is. And the rediculous comment as to "why would you build a pub in the middle of nowhere" just shows the gulf of understanding here about the realities of rural life.

MadsL

I'd like to see a trade-off. You get you subsidised bus service mr publican, but we the tax payer would like that cosy monopoly back. Hello? Hello?

The VFI are the one of the last remaining monopolies. A monopoly on serving drink - this benefits us how exactly?

nesf

miju wrote:

my point still stands why should country people have buses paid for them but people in Dublin must pay , obviously the same applies is reverse

I'm sure if bus networks existed in rural areas the locals would happily pay for them. Unfortunately due to the economic situation created by having most of the infrastructure in the country being placed around Dublin for the past 30 years, there are very few people left in rural areas to justify such a service being in place.

And the counter point of, why should I be taxed at 42% yet have to pay for my healthcare but that person over there only be taxed at 20% and have a medical card? My income being redistributed unevenly is no different to income being redistributed out of Dublin occasionally. Demand one and you have to accept the other tbh.

Time Magazine

miju wrote:

the amount of blink and you miss it villages i've been to where theres about 10 pubs in it is ridiculous and my point still stands why should country people have buses paid for them but people in Dublin must pay , obviously the same applies is reverse

In fairness people in Dublin do have buses paid for them. Sure, they have to contribute to the cost, but the subsidy was well over €1m a week last time I checked.

Judt

plonk wrote:

Your not getting it 13 pubs in 2006 closed in east galway. Rural pubs now only make money on weekend trade and even thats quiet of late. They charge less than pubs in the cities have less custom and are gettingshafted over it. The goverment have to do something or else every pub will be closed in 10 years. My village used to have 5 pubs and now has 3 and will be down to 2 fairly soon i think.

Maybe what there doing isnt the best idea but something has to be done IMO

Supply and demand. If there's only demand for two pubs nowadays then give two pubs. Sheesh, it's not like you can't find anywhere to have a pint with only two pubs in the village... Where does it say in the constitution that we all have a right to a pub within a specified distance of our homes?

Gurgle

Ibid wrote:

In fairness people in Dublin do have buses paid for them. Sure, they have to contribute to the cost, but the subsidy was well over €1m a week last time I checked.

Annual report 2005
65 million 'subvention' in 2005 + 10.6 million in capital grants.

So 75.6 million out of taxpayers pockets (3/4 of whom don't live or work in the Dublin area) to keep the worst public transport service on earth running.

And if we're wondering why:

Payroll costs 2005: 146,317,000
Number of staff: 3,407

So the average salary for this company staffed by low-skilled workers (drivers) and incompetant paper-pushers (everyone else) is 43k, compared to a national industrial average of 31k.

Sangre

Deleted User wrote:

Next we'll be giving out about leisure centres that make a few euros when a subsidised bus brings a load of special needs kids to their facility...

Is your arguement really so weak that you have to compare driving people to get pissed in the pub to helping out the handicapped.

Are you for real?

MontgomeryClift

The increasingly dire Irish Times tried to make this into an urban/rural thing with a story on the front page of their vacuous Weekend Review section yesterday.

Obviously it is not to do with the fictitious urban/rural battle. You can live in a rural area (a small town or a village) and still be in walking distance of a pub. If you're not in walking distance of a pub then you're probably not in walking distance of anything, and if that's the case then your house is in the wrong place. (Or you're a farmer, which is some excuse at least.)

Gurgle

MontgomeryClift wrote:

If you're not in walking distance of a pub then you're probably not in walking distance of anything, and if that's the case then your house is in the wrong place.

Oh good god thats just priceless.

Sangre

Sangre wrote:

Is your arguement really so weak that you have to compare driving people to get pissed in the pub to helping out the handicapped.

Are you for real?

And is your argument so weak that any 60 year old having a couple of pints and getting out of his house for one night every now and again is classified as someone who 'wants to get pissed' just for asking for some semblance of a social life?

Are you for real?

InFront

Nobody cares whether he goes to the pub or not, I don't care if he goes off drinking, or goes swing dancing or stands on his head in the street for an hour. All anybody is saying here is do not drink and drive. No excuses.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

And is your argument so weak that any 60 year old having a couple of pints and getting out of his house for one night every now and again is classified as someone who 'wants to get pissed' just for asking for some semblance of a social life?

Are you for real?

You keep making out that this is for OAPs. The service is not restricted to OAPs.

Non OAPs have to pay to use it, but presumably their fares are heavily subsidised.

MontgomeryClift

Gurgle wrote:

Oh good god thats just priceless.

Eh... thanks.

Victor

Gurgle wrote:

Ibid wrote:

In fairness people in Dublin do have buses paid for them. Sure, they have to contribute to the cost, but the subsidy was well over €1m a week last time I checked.

Annual report 2005
65 million 'subvention' in 2005 + 10.6 million in capital grants.

So 75.6 million out of taxpayers pockets (3/4 of whom don't live or work in the Dublin area) to keep the worst public transport service on earth running.

And if we're wondering why:

Payroll costs 2005: 146,317,000
Number of staff: 3,407

So the average salary for this company staffed by low-skilled workers (drivers) and incompetant paper-pushers (everyone else) is 43k, compared to a national industrial average of 31k.

Nitelink services (together with Airlink and private hires) are billed separately and are profitable, thereby reducing the subsidy to daytime services. Much of the subsidy is for people who the government gives free travel passes to.

professore

Victor wrote:

Nitelink services (together with Airlinka nd private hires) are billed separately and are profitable, thereby reducing the subsidy to daytime services. Much of the subsidy is for people who the government gives free travel passes to.

My parents live in a rural area (2 miles from the nearest village on the main Dublin - Limerick road - not up some remote mountain). They both have free travel passes and would gladly use public transport. Guess how many times they have used them? Zero. There IS no public transport; the only thing is a bingo bus once a week. My dad drives his car but is not the most steady anymore -but he has no choice. What should he do - sell the family home and go and live in a village, away from his gardening, the only thing that keeps him sane? They are not village people (pardon the pun). I think a subsidisded bus service once a day or maybe even once a week in areas like this would be a good thing. It symbolises this pathetic country that it has to be in the context of alcohol consumption that things get done.

My dad paid taxes all his life; he gets no public transport or refuse collection services of any description. How can you say that people like him are not entitled to a bus service?

Victor

professore wrote:

They are not village people (pardon the pun).

What is wrong with living in a village?

Gardening wise, he could easily keep a plot nearby, although I would like to see councils participate more in providing allotments.

Judt

I don't think that we can demand that people uproot themselves simply to go down the pub or to bingo; but I do believe that in a country where we have concerns about health, education and law enforcement that paying for busses to go everywhere in Ireland might not be the best use of resources. I do, however, believe that the government should help organise people to provide their own shuttle busses - subsidise them from the logisitical end of things.

spurious

Anyone experience of what they do in, say, rural England or Scotland?

Gurgle

Victor wrote:

Much of the subsidy is for people who the government gives free travel passes to.

I believe the subsidies I linked to above are independent of travel passes. This is money handed to Dublin Bus which allows them to keep their fares 'competitive' while still maintaining artificially high salaries for semi-skilled workers.

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

And is your argument so weak that any 60 year old having a couple of pints and getting out of his house for one night every now and again is classified as someone who 'wants to get pissed' just for asking for some semblance of a social life?

But if it's the implementation of drink driving laws that's stopping them, then they can still get out and have the social life, indeed still have a pint, they just can't have enough to send them over the limit.

If it's for the the 60 year old who doesn't have a car, then this isn't a new problem, is one that this Government has had 10 years to tackle, and shouldn't be tied into this debate and shouldn't revolve around the pub.

Gurgle

The whole idea is stupid tbh, if a pub is suffering financially due to decreased drink driving then any publican with an iota of business sense will have a mini bus doing runs from 10:30 until closing time. Buy your ticket at the bar for the price of a pint.

Even if the publican runs the busses at a loss the increased revenue at the bar would easily cover it.

professore wrote:

My dad paid taxes all his life; he gets no public transport or refuse collection services of any description. How can you say that people like him are not entitled to a bus service?

Lets be honest: Taxes are collected in the country for use in Dublin. Ireland is effectively the Dublin empire.

markpb

Gurgle wrote:

Lets be honest: Taxes are collected in the country for use in Dublin. Ireland is effectively the Dublin empire.

Dublin, per-head, generates more taxes than it spends which means that at least some counties outside Dublin spend more taxes than they make. There's nothing wrong with that per-se, it's the way most countries work.

For what its worth, I do believe there should be more work done on public transport in rural areas, but during the day, not (just) for people drinking at night. Minibuses linking villages and towns, even just at commuting times would be a step forward and I'll be all for subsidies for that with passengers making up the rest.

It might be a necessity to have pubs located in the (apparent) middle of nowhere but it was always true that the majority of people frequenting them were driving home illegally and there's no way we should be supporting a business which causes people to openly break the law.

professore wrote:

What should he do - sell the family home and go and live in a village, away from his gardening, the only thing that keeps him sane? My dad paid taxes all his life; he gets no public transport or refuse collection services of any description. How can you say that people like him are not entitled to a bus service?

I'm not sure what sort of village your parents were from but mine manage to live in a small town and have quite a large garden. They're about a 2 minute walk from the main street.

Also, I'm sure there is public transport available to him in the form of Bus Eireann. It might not stop right outside his door but that's one of the things you accept when you live outside a city - it just isn't viable to provide the same level of service. And lets not go down the road of 'I pay my taxes, I should get...' because you do, you get roads, water, lighting, public services, ambulances (which are more expensive to provide outside a city), gardai and a whole host of other services.