Interesting Tournament Hand!! - Check-Raised on the River (worth the read)

Jesus Wept

Poker Stars Sunday Million Hand


Background Info

The average stack was about 20k when this hand came up. Myself and the 2 other players that took the flop had 2 - 3 times the average stack.

'The Villain' had only moved to the table a few minutes before, so i had no idea how he played, and visa versa.




The Hand


Poker Stars - Sunday Million - $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (400/800) - 2007/01/07 - 18:20:02 (ET)

9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: SirJ2005 (19600 in chips)
Seat 2: 'Our Hero' (55641 in chips)
Seat 3: Pepper1111 (60398 in chips)
Seat 4: cjdow (11050 in chips)
Seat 5: 'The Villain' (40516 in chips)
Seat 6: bor474 (5500 in chips)
Seat 7: foucault82 (36525 in chips)
Seat 8: indycoltz32 (10300 in chips)
Seat 9: VenoTox (13400 in chips)
cjdow: posts small blind 400
'The Villain': posts big blind 800

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 'Our Hero' [Ad Ks]

bor474: folds
foucault82: folds
indycoltz32: folds
VenoTox: folds
SirJ2005: calls 800
'Our Hero': raises 2200 to 3000
Pepper1111: calls 3000
cjdow: folds
'The Villain': calls 2200
SirJ2005: folds

*** FLOP *** [Jh 9d 2d]

'The Villain': checks
'Our Hero': checks
Pepper1111: checks

*** TURN *** [Jh 9d 2d] [As]

'The Villain': bets 6000
'Our Hero': calls 6000
Pepper1111: folds

*** RIVER *** [Jh 9d 2d As] [2c]

'The Villain': checks
'Our Hero: bets 6000
'The Villain': raises 25516 to 31516 and is all-in
'Our Hero': folds



'The Villain' collected 34200 from pot


Thoughts

I think the play of this hand is unusual because I got check-raised on the river, which really doesn't tend to happen very often imo, and always comes as a surprise.

I'm hoping not to get lots of posts yelling 'YOU DIDN'T CONTINUATION BET!', I'm aware of this, and generally not unhappy with the play on the flop and turn.

You shouldn't always continuation bet as you all know.

I'm defintly less inclined to want to contination bet when the 2 other biggest stacks at the table decide to get involved in the hand, the largest stack calling from the button when he hasn't had a chip in the pot, and there has been a limper and a raiser directly behind that limper...

Also, I can't think of a single realistic hand that is ahead of me on the river and/or turn, that wasn't already ahead of me on the flop... (I can't put someone on a solitary deuce).

I'm losing to (some more likely than others)

JJ
99
22
AJ
J9
AA
A9
A2



So the main question is, how do you react when you are check raised on the river, and would you of called or folded in this instance, and for what reasons.....?

What is the likelyhood that this is a stone cold bluff? If he had position on me and had raised on the turn or river, I would be more inclined to think it could be a bluff/semi bluff, but a check-raise on the end is one of the most unsual things to happen in a pokerhand, imo, I can count the number of times on a couple of hands that I've had it happen.


enough jibba-jabba from me, I would appreciate all considered thoughts and analysis

P.S: Feel free to take the poll!

Hectorjelly

Just rereading the history, your bet on the river sucks. Either bet properly or check. A small bet like that may induce a raise from a flush draw, and since you arent planning on calling this is terrible. Theres over 25k (rough count) there and you bet 5k. Reopening the betting like this is really bad.

At first I thought you played it well and it was a fold, but that small bet is going to enrage players with missed draws to push over it; if thats your intention then great, if not its really bad.

BrokenArrows

You may well be ahead here but you cant really call this.

You still have double the average stack size so there is plently of play to be had. No need to risk it on this type of hand.

Hectorjelly

BrokenArrows wrote:

You may well be ahead here but you cant really call this.

You still have double the average stack size so there is plently of play to be had. No need to risk it on this type of hand.

This type of analysis is bad, either he should call because its a profitable call, or he should fold because it wont be profitable. It makes no difference how much play is left to be had or what his stack is except if he was pot-committed, which he clearly isnt so doesnt need to be mentioned. Either the hand dictates a call or it doesnt.

Also if he may well be ahead (and I take it that means he has a 50/50 chance of being ahead) then he should call.

I dont mean to pick on you but a lot of posts are made like this and I think its a really bad way to look at hands.

BrokenArrows

Hectorjelly wrote:

This type of analysis is bad, either he should call because its a profitable call, or he should fold because it wont be profitable. It makes no difference how much play is left to be had or what his stack is except if he was pot-committed, which he clearly isnt so doesnt need to be mentioned. Either the hand dictates a call or it doesnt.

Also if he may well be ahead (and I take it that means he has a 50/50 chance of being ahead) then he should call.

I dont mean to pick on you but a lot of posts are made like this and I think its a really bad way to look at hands.

Fair enough.

Norwich Fan Rob

i would suggest this is almost always a set for the villian, certainly enough times that u should fold here.

would the villain be happy to risk his whole stack here on a bluff, after u raised pre, an ace hit and u bet it twice (albeit weakly), villian will not push here with any hand u are beating, except a busted draw or complete bluff.

RoundTower

I think you should fold here, he most likely has 99 or JJ.

Betting 6k is bad here, because the most you can gain from it is 6k, but you risk being bluffed off the whole pot. Against an unknown player I would probably bet 14k and probably be forced to call a push. I think you played the hand well up to the river.

cardshark202

I would generally check behind on this river. There is not much he can call you with that you beat.

bohsman

It looks as if he was checkraising the flop as he bets the Ace which he has to think has hit you after you checked the flop, I also think he has flopped a set. Raising the turn makes the river play a lot easier. As played I fold.

PiperT

Looks to me like Villain checked his flopped set as most would. The Ace is a good card for him as its likely to induce some action. Given the way its played out I'm happy to see his check on the river.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

LuckyLloyd wrote:

.

Which is kinda odd...

What is odd?

ianmc38

This is a horrible flop to make a CB on 3 handed IMO. The river is an easy peasy fold. I would rarely bet the river. Your hand is practically face up on the table so you are rarely to never ahead of the river CR.

califano

LuckyLloyd wrote:

.

Checking behind here in a mtt is nearly always bad especially against an unknown player with a big stack. The amount of chips you'll miss out on over time by checking behind in a mtt is too much. I think he was right to bet but like already stated he could have bet more.

To me this check behind sounds like a cash game thinking check.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

califano

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I just don't agree with value betting TPTK on the river in this spot - as I don't think you are ahead any time he calls.

I disagree. Ive never played this particular tournament before but a player will often check/call on the river against a hand you beat.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

As stated earlier, the guy bet out on the turn

He checked the river though!.


Interesting hand alrite.

Waylander

I think checking behind on the river was the only way to go, you cannot really call the reraise here.

Jesus Wept

rounders123 wrote:

I disagree. Ive never played this particular tournament before but a player will often check/call on the river against a hand you beat.



He checked the river though!.


Interesting hand alrite.

A LOT of interesting feedback...

In hindsight (a useful yoke), I think I should of just posted the hand and left my thoughts about the hand to a later post, as they could influence some people on the hand.


'The Villain' Bet into me on the turn, I just called his bet, I felt a raise would mean that I was committed for my whole stack, and he may already have me drawing dead....

I think there is too much value too be lost by not making a value bet against most players, in my opinion, a lot of players would call the river with any Ace, decent or not, and bad players are capable of calling with the Jack, even the 9 or a random pocket pair that hasn't connected..... I think sometimes the posters on this site when responding to hands, forget how bad a lot of players are (as you are all likely winning players, seeing as you bother to read and respond to hands), who are capable of calling with anything, also this is the Sunday Million, where a lot of the players have got into through turbo satellites, and a lot are donks, from the play I saw.

Also, I'm wary of making a bet on the end that can only be called by a better hand, this would make no sense, as Chris Ferguson says, the motivation of a bet is to get a person to call with a worse hand, or fold a better hand than yours....

While the river bet is small in relation to the size of the pot, all 3 players inc. me that took the flop had big stacks, so it still represents about 30% of the average stack, and a bit more than twice the average preflop raise.

.....................


I've been a bit sneaky in that I omitted the most interesting thing about the hand..



... I folded, and 'The Villain' showed Pocket 3's


Now, I can't decide if he is a genius or someone who is doing this just hoping it works so he can email it to his friends..

..if it is a great move depends mostly on his motivation, in my view, the fact he shows leads me to think there is a chance that a large part of the reason he is doing it is the latter reason.


I think I bet the river too quickly (something you clearly can't see from reading a hand history), and I wasn't prepared for someone to check-raise bluff allin on the river, its a very unusual move (though maybe it will be the new thing soon), its the type of thing 99%+ of players aren't going to do.

It's a pretty dangerous thing to do, considering that most poor players are never folding AK there, it has to really be done againest the right target, a decent player, and seeing as it was the first ever hand we played,
he can't of known me...

so how good a player or move it was, I can't say, it really depends on the his motivation for making it, and how likely he deams it will work...

He earned the pot.

kmick

*** FLOP *** [Jh 9d 2d]
'The Villain': checks
'Our Hero': checks
Pepper1111: checks

In my opinion this is what lost you the hand. What were you checking for? If you have a good hand you have to play it as a good hand. If you stay in after the flop in this case it is because you either HAVE a good hand or you are representing that you have a good hand. Checking tells me you have not got a good hand. At that point the Villain bluffs. He represents a good hand. Even tho I would have raised after the flop if I found myself in that situation I would probably fold even though I would imagine the chances he are bluffing are 60/40 because if he had JJ or 99 then surely he would have been putting in a large raise after the flop. Only other reason he would check is slow play - but slow play against 2 opponents is dumb - or is it?

Jesus Wept

kmick wrote:

*** FLOP *** [Jh 9d 2d]
'The Villain': checks
'Our Hero': checks
Pepper1111: checks

In my opinion this is what lost you the hand. What were you checking for? If you have a good hand you have to play it as a good hand. If you stay in after the flop in this case it is because you either HAVE a good hand or you are representing that you have a good hand. Checking tells me you have not got a good hand. At that point the Villain bluffs. He represents a good hand. Even tho I would have raised after the flop if I found myself in that situation I would probably fold even though I would imagine the chances he are bluffing are 60/40 because if he had JJ or 99 then surely he would have been putting in a large raise after the flop. Only other reason he would check is slow play - but slow play against 2 opponents is dumb - or is it?

I would have to disagree, I don't think many posters objected to not making a continuation bet in the circumstances

a: 2 players have called
b: they both have big stacks
c: if they called with any pair 9's + they are ahead, and likely not folding

I think the flop action is the least interesting part of the hand.

I would have to disagree, I don't think many posters objected to not making a continuation bet in the circumstances

a: 2 players have called
b: they both have big stacks
c: if they called with any pair 9's + they are ahead, and likely not folding


I think the flop action is the least interesting part of the hand.

The-Rigger wrote:

... I folded, and 'The Villain' showed Pocket 3's

there are many other reasons, also in light of the 'new evidence' that 'The Villain' check-raised allin on the river on a bluff, I think it is very likely he would check raise if I bet on the flop, he is defiantly not playing
a-b-c poker.

In my opinion, continuation bets are getting a lot less respect than they used too, mostly because the fish didn't really know what they were for a long time, in my view.


Also, I think in his position, slowplaying would be a decent idea, because if I did continuation bet, or have a big hand, he checks, I bet, and the other player in the hand may call with a hand/draw, now
he can raise if he wishes and he has trapped the other players chips, he stands to win an even bigger pot, just one way to play the hand if he has flopped a set for example.

there are many other reasons, also in light of the 'new evidence' that 'The Villain' check-raised allin on the river on a bluff, I think it is very likely he would check raise if I bet on the flop, he is defiantly not playing
a-b-c poker.

In my opinion, continuation bets are getting a lot less respect than they used too, mostly because the fish didn't really know what they were for a long time, in my view.


Also, I think in his position, slowplaying would be a decent idea, because if I did continuation bet, or have a big hand, he checks, I bet, and the other player in the hand may call with a hand/draw, now
he can raise if he wishes and he has trapped the other players chips, he stands to win an even bigger pot, just one way to play the hand if he has flopped a set for example.


(wow, I've even quoted.....myself... was just in case someone missed it in the last post )

ArmaniJeanss

Fold

The-Rigger wrote:

... I folded, and 'The Villain' showed Pocket 33's

Amn't I happy I put down 'Call' on the poll when I filled it in an hour ago

Jesus Wept

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Amn't I happy I put down 'Call' on the poll when I filled it in an hour ago

mmmm, lol, but what was your motivation in the call, thats the real question? How often does someone check-raise allin bluffing on the river? :eek:

kmick

I understand you had no read on this guy as he had just come to the table. But I think ABC poker is exactly what he is playing. Continuation bets have as much power as they always did. If I am sitting on a pair of threes and that flop comes up and someone bets a large amount (~25k) I have two choices I can re-raise on a bluff or fold - even a fish does not check a bet like that. Taking into account the hero has re-raised pre-flop I have to assume he has something strong-ish. In this case I fold.

Now your point is if he is a fish then he has no idea what he is doing. In this case as we all know all bets are off - he could do anything. All that you can do is play your game. Playing my game I would have bet on the flop - maybe not 25k but perhaps 10k

Waylander

The-Rigger wrote:

I think I bet the river too quickly (something you clearly can't see from reading a hand history), and I wasn't prepared for someone to check-raise bluff allin on the river, its a very unusual move (though maybe it will be the new thing soon), its the type of thing 99%+ of players aren't going to do.

.

I do not think this move is as rare as you seem to think it is. You made a small bet that looked like you were trying to take the pot, I think in this place there are alot of players that would play back at you to try and push you off. Also he could have had you on a drawing hand from your play in each round earlier on your hand, and may well have figured you did not hit, as you flat called when you hit your ace and checked the flop. I also think I would have made a continuation bet on the flop.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Jesus Wept

kmick wrote:

I understand you had no read on this guy as he had just come to the table. But I think ABC poker is exactly what he is playing. Continuation bets have as much power as they always did. If I am sitting on a pair of threes and that flop comes up and someone bets a large amount (~25k) I have two choices I can re-raise on a bluff or fold - even a fish does not check a bet like that. Taking into account the hero has re-raised pre-flop I have to assume he has something strong-ish. In this case I fold.

Now your point is if he is a fish then he has no idea what he is doing. In this case as we all know all bets are off - he could do anything. All that you can do is play your game. Playing my game I would have bet on the flop.

I didn't re-reraise preflop, there was one limper, and I raised directly behind him.


I agree betting the flop is definitely an option, and it may of ended things right there and then, honestly, I don't mind that it didn't , the hand turned out to be far more interesting and I think more can be gained seeing how it played out.

ArmaniJeanss

Fold

The rigger,
I didnt comment originally as the consensus seemed to be 'fold', and I didnt want to get into a fight against people on the board who are far better than me.

However my theory was this is usually not a set - anyone who checks a set on the river here is rarely going to CRAI, they are going to do something stupid like a check-min raise.

Therefore its most likely a pocket pair which didnt hit the board (obv we're ahead of all them) or an Ax (of which we are ahead of almost all).

Probably flawed, but that was my logic. I didnt post as I didnt think there was anything to be gained as I didnt know the opponent showed the hand.

AJ (supreme aftertimer !)

ianmc38

By not betting the flop you're announcing you have AK, as I think most players bet there with a set or an overpair as it's a draw heavy board. Your call on the turn indicates Ax, probably AK/AQ. Whatever about him showing 33, I still think the river is a pretty standard fold with no more information.

Jesus Wept

Fairplay Paul - you have put a bit of thought into this hand.

Cheers Lloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

The rigger,
I didnt comment originally as the consensus seemed to be 'fold', and I didnt want to get into a fight against people on the board who are far better than me.

However my theory was this is usually not a set - anyone who checks a set on the river here is rarely going to CRAI, they are going to do something stupid like a check-min raise.

Therefore its most likely a pocket pair which didnt hit the board (obv we're ahead of all them) or an Ax (of which we are ahead of almost all).

Probably flawed, but that was my logic. I didnt post as I didnt think there was anything to be gained as I didnt know the opponent showed the hand.

AJ (supreme aftertimer !)

Thanks for your feedback, I think that was my fault, I shouldn't of included all my thought process in the original post, it may of put you or others off posting your responses.

Waylander wrote:

I do not think this move is as rare as you seem to think it is. You made a small bet that looked like you were trying to take the pot, I think in this place there are alot of players that would play back at you to try and push you off. Also he could have had you on a drawing hand from your play in each round earlier on your hand, and may well have figured you did not hit, as you flat called when you hit your ace and checked the flop. I also think I would have made a continuation bet on the flop.

I agree with you, I'm delighted he showed just to open my eyes that people may be check raising allin on the end againest anyone who makes a value bet, on occasion I will make an 'irritant bet', designed just to annoy someone who has missed a draw into making a bluff, If he had position on me and raised allin to my bet on the end, I would likely of beat him in the pot. (a good trick online! There really should be a 'beat any bet in the pot' Button, just for a laugh! )

For some reason, maybe because I had position on him, or I was on autopilot, I hadn't really thought that my bet might have that effect.

RacingSilver

People should reread LuckyLloyd's response about this being a bad spot to value bet the river. He's absolutely right and I'm just surprised that some posters (including the OP) disagree with him.
You're hoping to gain another 6000 by betting the river and being called by a worse hand. If this works out, then you will have a stack of 74000 as opposed to a stack of 68000 if you just check the river.
However if you are called, then I think you're most likely beaten, so you've just lost 6000, or you risk him raising all-in in which case you must fold. If he doesn't call your river bet, then you've gained nothing.
To me, the downsides far outweigh the upsides.

Jesus Wept

RacingSilver wrote:

People should reread LuckyLloyd's response about this being a bad spot to value bet the river. He's absolutely right and I'm just surprised that some posters (including the OP) disagree with him.
You're hoping to gain another 6000 by betting the river and being called by a worse hand. If this works out, then you will have a stack of 74000 as opposed to a stack of 68000 if you just check the river.
However if you are called, then I think you're most likely beaten, so you've just lost 6000, or you risk him raising all-in in which case you must fold. If he doesn't call your river bet, then you've gained nothing.
To me, the downsides far outweigh the upsides.

I think checking behind is a very valid option, but I also think that value betting is an important part of the game, and that a lot of players play really really badly, and will call with a huge range of crap hands, I've also noticed some tricky players will bet quite small on a stone cold bluff (similar to my value bet) in case the other player was on a draw, and this can work very well, it's also another reason why he might call with a weak hand, even if he is a good player...

..just my 2cents

...oh and lastly, I'm just not used to seeing people check-raise on the river as a bluff(even more so in Tournament play) or even with a hand, maybe it happens more than I was aware! If i had been, I would be a lot more likely to
call.

Marq

Fold

I wouldn't bet 6k on the end unless I was willing to call an all-in bet.
I would bet 12-15k or check behind.

ollyk1

The-Rigger wrote:

'The Villain' Bet into me on the turn, I just called his bet, I felt a raise would mean that I was committed for my whole stack, and he may already have me drawing dead....

You have the nut flush draw? What are you drawing dead against?

The reason you checked the flop and didn't c-bet is because on the flop you felt you had a hand. This is one board I'd definitely c-bet on. The other players can fear an overpair or a flush draw they can't decide. C-bet is mandatory here unless you are going to tell people your hands.

The guy went on to pull what could be considered to be a well executed bluff for reasons of his good play based on your transparency or because he's an aggressive idiot. Showing the 33 tends me towards aggressive idiot but if he then goes onto play pretty tight waiting to stack you and other short stacks with a big hand then maybe not. But in general its a very bad hand to show at this stage in a tournie.

I hate the size of the value bet on the river. But that's been said. You played the hand like you'd fold to a push and you did.

As for the worse hands calling I'm having trouble seeing AQ calling. AJ is beating you and AT is a very bad preflop call and an even worse river call.

Hectorjelly

I think villain played it very well.

If I was going to bet the river I would just push. I think id normally bet it

jimbling

ollyk1 wrote:

You have the nut flush draw? What are you drawing dead against?.

He doesn't have a flush draw... unless you mean backdoor

I also didnt comment on this originally.... my initial instinct was to call, and call relatively easily. Mainly this is due to the weak bet on the river been so tempting for the villain, and the play by Hero up to this point seemed relatively weak. Even though you obviously had an A, you also obviously feared you were behind. This made his bluff crai on the river more profitable. (by the way, I think he was probably happy to check it down, but your speedy weak bet made him rethink the situation and have a go)

I don't think this player was in any way as intelligent or imaginative as you might suspect.

Jesus Wept

ollyk1 wrote:

As for the worse hands calling I'm having trouble seeing AQ calling. AJ is beating you and AT is a very bad preflop call and an even worse river call.

I'd just have to disagree! People make bad calls, I can't see an average player folding AQ. AT is one of the better hands people call with preflop, plenty of people will still call preflop with any 2 suited cards, especially on the big blind (no way they can fold if they have a chip in the pot!) and I can see so many other hands that poor players will call with!

It's never a table full of Slansky's!


I'm off to bed like a normal poker player! gnite

Jesus Wept

PiperT wrote:

I agree if he's gonna bet it should be stronger. I still think the check is the best option the way this hand played out. At best your betting for a split pot and chances are you are behind to a set/house. I know this won't always be the case but I think this hand is different.

A split pot has never crossed my mind, Am I one of the few people that plays againest people who make bad calls? I think bad players, of which there are still many, could call with the J or the 9, let alone any Ace,

But a couple of recent posters can't see anyone calling with worse than AK or AJ now :eek:

It seriously sounds like you've playing againest the tightest living humans for a while, I think when it comes to value betting the river, maybe you are considering if you could call with AT or A3 for that matter, its about weather the average player would, or a bad player, of which there are plenty, I hope.

ollyk1

jimbling wrote:

He doesn't have a flush draw... unless you mean backdoor

Sorry misread. damn hand histories...but we're still not drawing dead, backdoor flush and runner runner straight draw. In the words of Ollieboy just believe!! lol I still c-bet the flop and maybe the turn

I too like how the villain played it right up until he shows 33.

Jesus Wept

ollyk1 wrote:

Sorry misread. damn hand histories...but we're still not drawing dead, backdoor flush and runner runner straight draw. In the words of Ollieboy just believe!! lol I still c-bet the flop and maybe the turn

lol, I can't remember the last time I hit one of those draws, would be nice tho eh!?

ollyk1 wrote:

I too like how the villain played it right up until he shows 33.

Yep, agree with this, he has given me food for thought, for no good reason.

ianmc38

Why was your bet sizing based on the average table stack size instead of the size of the pot? And had you considered your action should you get checkraised on the river? Usually when I play a hand I normally have a very good idea of what I'm going to do should a certain action take place, like a river CRAI.

I like how he played it especially with the 33. His line looks really strong.

jimbling

Ollyk1, The-Rigger and Ian,

Why do ye like the way the Villain played the hand??
Do you really think he was playing for the crai on the river? :eek:


This would basically mean that he bet the turn hoping for a call just so he could check the river and hope for a weak bet from hero.
Crazy play. He could not move all in if hero had put in a decent size bet, and 80% of the time the river would be a check or a decent bet from Hero.

Do you think he was going all in if there was a raise from Hero on the Turn??
Do you think he was going all in if there was a 15k bet from Hero on the river??


I think it was a poor bet on the turn by villain, but the weak call on turn and weak bet on river made him think he could steal the pot... and rightly so.

Am I missing something here??? I just can't see why the intrigue in his play, in fact I don't like it at all....and think he played the hand horribly (with exception of the all in on the river - note: not the crai, just the all in)
Unless you have some specific reason to believe this player is exceptional and had a read on Hero, then this looks like standard donkey play to me.
Please tell me if you think I am missing the point here.

ollyk1

My view on the hand is that he sensed weakness on the flop so he had a good stab on the turn. Nothing wrong with that.

Then he got called so he was probably done with the hand but then he gets a feeling that the OP is willing to lay his hand down with the weak bet on the river and he shows a lot of heart and earns the pot. What's not to love?

I don't think his plan was to crai. I think he reacted to the info in the hand and showed good aggression. I bet he'd be surprised to see the OP had an AK but what he did know was there was a good chance of taking the pot down as the OP left himself enough behind to fold and so he went with it.

I'm not saying the guy is a poker sevant but I like the ballsiness of the move. This guy believes he can outplay people that's why he calls with 33 in the first place! I did say I wasn't impressed with showing here.

Hectorjelly

No showing here is great, if I did this bluff I would always show it. V Hard not to go on tilt after being shown a bluff like that. Also it does wonders for your image

Ste05

This all seems very standard to me up until the River, the flop played itself, on the turn, the Villain decided to take a stab at the pot, (dodgy play with the Ace falling, but mneh), the OP just calls (correctly IMO)

Then on the River, I'd say the Villain had probably given up on the hand, as I'd say he puts the Hero firmly on Ax, but when he sees the terrible bet, he sees an opportunity and decides to snap off a nice little pot.

IMO the bet on the River is terrible for 2 reasons:

1. From a Value point of view, IMO there's little to no Value in betting here. Our hand is very transparant. Certainly I'd never raise here unless I was calling the re-raise. All betting here does is open yourself up to being Bluffed off the pot. As nothing that can't beat our transparant hand is ever calling here.

2. Also it's bad from a sizing point of view, it looks exactly like it was, that being a weak bet that is hoping for a crying call, but almost certainly going to fold to a Re-Raise. (Based on how the hand played out) You quite obviously left enough behind so that you could fold if you were re-raised and still leaving yourself with enough to be comfortable.

But TBH, I think the sizing of this bet just increases the chances of you getting bluffed, whereas betting more just makes folding easier, however IMO point 1 above is the more over-riding one here, and there should not have been a raise at all, unless you were trying to induce a bluff and so either check behind or call the re-raise.

califano

I told ye Lloyd:cool:

btw can we still vote!?

jimbling

ollyk1 wrote:

My view on the hand is that he sensed weakness on the flop so he had a good stab on the turn. Nothing wrong with that.

Find it difficult to agree with this... Think it was an awful stab. No problem with sensing weakness on the flop, but what could the OP have that he would check the flop that doesn't include an A?? If the turn is a x then no problem with a steal attempt... but its an A.

ollyk1 wrote:

Then he got called so he was probably done with the hand but then he gets a feeling that the OP is willing to lay his hand down with the weak bet on the river and he shows a lot of heart and earns the pot. What's not to love?

I agree with this part all right. But he played half of one street well.... bollox to loving the way he played the hand for that

ollyk1 wrote:

I don't think his plan was to crai. I think he reacted to the info in the hand and showed good aggression. I bet he'd be surprised to see the OP had an AK but what he did know was there was a good chance of taking the pot down as the OP left himself enough behind to fold and so he went with it.

I'm not saying the guy is a poker sevant but I like the ballsiness of the move. This guy believes he can outplay people that's why he calls with 33 in the first place! I did say I wasn't impressed with showing here.

fair enough.... opinions are everyones own

jimbling

Hectorjelly wrote:

No showing here is great, if I did this bluff I would always show it. V Hard not to go on tilt after being shown a bluff like that. Also it does wonders for your image

yes HJ, you would show it as it would be good for your image..... The reason for that is because it is not your style to play a hand like this. But for Villain here it is probably a bad show as he is probably a bit of a donk and all it does is tell everyone.

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

No showing here is great, if I did this bluff I would always show it. V Hard not to go on tilt after being shown a bluff like that. Also it does wonders for your image

I concede that it will tilt him but do you get the chips as a result?? And what about how the rest of the table is going to react to you now? Is this villain the sort of guy whos going to stop making moves on the turn on the river and now wait until he has the cards??

I'd say he prefers to have people folding to him in the later stages of tournies and not playing back at him with marginal hands so the image of a player who has the hands all the time would be better.

You are right jimbling and I did overstate my love of the villain's play. I just love the move on the end to be fair. I wouldn't call with 33 preflop here without having played a bit with the OP which he hadn't. I doubt I lead the turn either (but he's calling preflop to "outplay" his opponent at some stage one has to suspect so at least he's sticking with the plan and giving it a go. The OP only made a standard raise it's not like he's got decent Ace written all over his hand until the river ) but I do like the move on the end!! lol .

RoundTower

If you bet 15k you are definitely getting called by AQ and maybe less.

LuckyLloyd

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