Will there ever be a Bobby Sands Street in the country?

Shutuplaura

Not sur eif this really belongs here in history/heritage but given the political hue of most other posts here why not?

There are plenty of Pearse Streets in the country, Collins has his own Avenue, and there is a Sean Treacy Terrace/Road in Carrick on Suir. IRA figures from the 1940's are commemorated - The GAA club in Tralee and Sean Russells Statue in Fairview etc. So in time what is the likelyhood of or there ever being some sort of Bobby Sands housing estate, street or school. (Terrance MacSwiney has at least a school named after him in Cork).

Also, would it be any different?

Erin Go Brath

I think in years to come, Bobby Sands will have something named after him, be it a street, train station, school etc, or maybe a statue. History will show him as self-sacrificing martyr, up there with the 1916 leaders in terms of historical hero figures. I certainly think he deserves the recognition anyway!

walrusgumble

there probably will, isn't there a couple of wall murals dedicted to him in the north. ye are all aware that when he died he got media coverage from all over the world, many countries had a minutes silence etc, there was no one bar maggie calling him this or that.

i remember during the summer in gerry adam's area in antrim, they produced a green gaa jersey (o'neills) with his face faded into it, was for the 25th anniversary of hunger strike

one question though, do you think fianna fail or any other party in this side of the boarder would be keen on the idea, as the situationis right now? would it be tolerated in the north?

vesp

Short answer : no.

Aedh Baclamh

There will be one, and Vesp will have a house on it.

PHB

Sands is more controversial a figure than Collins or Dev were to each respective side, so I doubt it.

Red Hand

Probably not. Sands was a British citizan and how many British citizans of this centuary get streets named after them in the Republic?

Northen Ireland is part of Britain.:)

Jeremiah 16:1

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Northen Ireland is part of Britain.:)

Not that one again,

Britain consists of England & Wales
Great Britain consists of England, Wales & Scotland
The united Kingdom is "A united Kingdom of Great Britain & Norther Ireland"

InFront

If you really want to get pedantic, that poster used the adjective "British" arguably to define just that. "British" is a valid term to descrive him as much as the "British" passport he was entitled to hold as a Northerner.
Either way, he was a citizen of the United Kingdom, and so did he die.

The thought of commemorating him in a positive light, he who was a member of the PIRA, is absolutely crazy, I really don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future, nor should it.
For once I am with Margaret Thatcher. She pointed out that those of the organization for whom he committed suicide, had not afforded such degree of choice to its many victims.

Commemorating suicide terrorists anyone?

Erin Go Brath

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Probably not. Sands was a British citizan and how many British citizans of this centuary get streets named after them in the Republic?

Northen Ireland is part of Britain.:)

During the '81 hunger strikes Maggie Thatcher ignored the plight of the strikers. She said that Bobby Sands was "not one of us" ie considered himself Irish and not British, and so had no time for him. Pretty callous really since Britain had juristiction over the 6 counties, and therefore is supposed to take care of ALL ITS CITIZENS.

Bobby Sands was certainly Irish and not British just because he came from one of the six counties under British rule, theres two traditions there you know!!!!

Hagar

Is the term "British Citizen" correct? I thought the term "citizen" was associated with a republic and the term "subject" the correct term associated with monarchy. Would "British Subject" not be the correct term?

Hagar

From Wiki:-

In Tehran, Iran revolutionaries sympathizing with Sands renamed the street on which the British embassy was located on from Winston Churchill street to Bobby Sands street. The name remains despite pressure from the British foreign secretary to change it.

Apparently the Embassy gives its address as an adjoining street. You couldn't make that up.:D

Red Hand

Erin Go Brath wrote:

During the '81 hunger strikes Maggie Thatcher ignored the plight of the strikers. She said that Bobby Sands was "not one of us" ie considered himself Irish and not British, and so had no time for him. Pretty callous really since Britain had juristiction over the 6 counties, and therefore is supposed to take care of ALL ITS CITIZENS.

Bobby Sands was certainly Irish and not British just because he came from one of the six counties under British rule, theres two traditions there you know!!!!

Whether or not you think he was Irish depends on your point of view. In my view, yes he was Irish, but also British. In a Noman's land if you will.

(Hagar, yes the term is subject, I guess. )

Personally, I do not think that anybody in Northen Ireland should be commerated in the same way that citizans of the Republic are. Was Sands subject (sorry!) to our tax regime? Probably not.

Your argument that Thatcher didn't consider him British does not necessarily mean that he was de facto, "Irish" (as in a citizan of this Republic).

I for one do not celebrate any actions that the people involved in "the struggle" participated in.

Red Hand

InFront wrote:

If you really want to get pedantic, that poster used the adjective "British" arguably to define just that. "British" is a valid term to descrive him as much as the "British" passport he was entitled to hold as a Northerner.
Either way, he was a citizen of the United Kingdom, and so did he die.

The thought of commemorating him in a positive light, he who was a member of the PIRA, is absolutely crazy, I really don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future, nor should it.
For once I am with Margaret Thatcher. She pointed out that those of the organization for whom he committed suicide, had not afforded such degree of choice to its many victims.

Commemorating suicide terrorists anyone?

Agree totally. Not to mention that the PIRA and it's Rebublican and Loyalist brothers are up to their eyeballs in criminality.

So much for their tarnished "cause".:)

csk

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

how many British citizans of this centuary get streets named after them in the Republic?

Well Pearse has a street named after him, Collins has an avenue, Connolly has a train Station (come to think of it aren't all of the main stations in the country named after those executed in 1916), Mc Swiney has a school, Cathal Brugha has a street...

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Whether or not you think he was Irish depends on your point of view. In my view, yes he was Irish, but also British. In a Noman's land if you will.

That's an awful specious way of looking at things isn't it?

Of course he was Irish, he was born on this island!
Even the most staunch of Unionists do not have a problem with this concept and will when it suits them point it out gleefully.

AFAIK those born in the north are just as entitled to citizenship of Ireland as those of say, Cork. It's just that those in the north get the special privilege of also being subjects of her Britannic Majesty.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Personally, I do not think that anybody in Northen Ireland should be commerated in the same way that citizans of the Republic are.

Who are these "citizens" of the "Republic" that are commemorated and how are they different to Sands?

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Was Sands subject (sorry!) to our tax regime? Probably not.

U2 are no longer subject to our tax regime. Are they now a Dutch Band?


Personally I think if you define "country" as the whole island then it's inevitable that there will be something named after Bobby Sands. He is held in high regards by modern day Republicans and will likely recieve some kind of honour even if it is only in his home town. Although this probably won't happen for the foreseeable future and until a more politically amenable climate arises.

walrusgumble

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Probably not. Sands was a British citizan and how many British citizans of this centuary get streets named after them in the Republic?

Northen Ireland is part of Britain.:)

bunreacht na heireann once claimed legal claim over the whole of ireland, i am sure you are well aware of this and i am sure you understand what implications the good friday agreement had on the admendments of artiles 2 and 3 in 1998ish.

however at all times, people born in northern ireland had the choice to claim as either irish or british citizens. they can have both passports, due to membership of eu prob may opt for just the one thou.considering what he stood for that comment is a tad bit insentive and a wee bit ignorant imo. not assuming i knew him or his family or anything but i doubt he held a british passport when he was alive.

jesus if you are a sports fan or a soccer fan in particular, i doubt you have much sympathy for the catholic or nationalist members of the northern ireland team. anyone remember that crazy rule fifa wanted to impose on the ifa, ensure ALL players have british passports,(for administrative reasons). neil lennon, who played for his community (as he says) had an irish passport, joked, well that the comeback definitely off then.

i dont know whether the struggle of the last 40 years should really be celebtated, considering its not really a long time ago and emotions etc would be high, the events of 80 - 90 years ago still dominates our landscape. i aint really to keen on a few members even being allowed to have their names even mentioned near people of 1916-1923 (at this point i am not refering to sands, i was not born in 1981 so i shouldnt comment on what i think becasue i dont really know the whole story, alot of history has yet to deal with these years) some members must be rembered for robbing banks/post offices here in this side of the country, and at least 3 members of the gardai have been killed by their actions

Hagar

walrusgumble wrote:

i am sure you are well aware of this and i am sure you understand what implications the good friday agreement had on the admendments of artiles 2 and 3 in 1998ish.

Weren't the dropping of those two articles part of a quid-pro-quo in the GFA? I can only presume if the other side doesn't deliver what they promised the deal is off and the articles become re-instated into Bunract na hEireann. Does that sound right?

Capt'n Midnight

Hagar wrote:

From Wiki:-


Apparently the Embassy gives its address as an adjoining street. You couldn't make that up.:D

http://dublin.rusembassy.org

Russian Embassy
in Dublin, Ireland

Address: 184-186, Orwell Road, Rathgar, Dublin 14, Ireland
Phone: +353 1 492-3525, 492-2048
Telex: (500) 33622 URSS EI

walrusgumble

Hagar wrote:

Weren't the dropping of those two articles part of a quid-pro-quo in the GFA? I can only presume if the other side doesn't deliver what they promised the deal is off and the articles become re-instated into Bunract na hEireann. Does that sound right?

ooh crap i didnt phrase that well. old art 2 and 3 referred to the whole country, referred citizen was someone born in whole of island (as in automatically, try ignore immigration issue/irish born child of non eu citizen for this issue). yes your right this was dropped.

it now goes along the lines of it being every persons, who born on the island of ireland, entilement to be part of the nation (ie gives person in north the option to be irish citizen and/or british citizen. new art 3 acknowledges ni and states ni shall remain the way it is until a majority of people in ni vote otherwise (obviously not in those words, i know yourself just check out the old and new art 2 and 3 for yourself, and see comparison)

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

I would like it if they named a urinal after him, so I can piss on him whenever I get the urge.

vesp wrote:

The only good thing that can be said about him was that he was a good slimmer.

Even for you two these are a new low.
I don't even know why you bother posting here, all you ever do is snipe at other peoples posts if there seems to any Irish Nationalist aspect to it of any sort. I would really love to know what part of our Hitory & Heritage actually interests you. What positive threads have you pair even started?

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

I would like it if they named a urinal after him, so I can piss on him whenever I get the urge.

You are showing yourself to be a true bigot Fratton Fred! Whatever side of the political divide your on, a man who selflessly gave his life for a cause he believed in deserves to be respected.

People are too quick to judge these guys as terrorists. The reality is that internment without trial was one of Britains policies in NI at the time. Just one in a long history of policies designed to f**k us Irish over.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote:

I would like it if they named a urinal after him, so I can piss on him whenever I get the urge.

Surely you have your own toilet named after him so you can piss and **** on him to your hearts content? or is your post just a juevenile one so that you can 'prove' to people how good you are?

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

You are showing yourself to be a true bigot Fratton Fred! Whatever side of the political divide your on, a man who selflessly gave his life for a cause he believed in deserves to be respected.

People are too quick to judge these guys as terrorists. The reality is that internment without trial was one of Britains policies in NI at the time. Just one in a long history of policies designed to f**k us Irish over.

because I don't like the guy I'm a bigot??

I'm entitled to me opinion as much as anyone. I have not insulted you, so why insult me?

or is it you that's the bigot?

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely you have your own toilet named after him so you can piss and **** on him to your hearts content? or is your post just a juevenile one so that you can 'prove' to people how good you are?

I wouldn't waste my money on one.

and before you all get all excited, I would say the same thing about Billy Wright.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

Even for you two these are a new low.
I don't even know why you bother posting here, all you ever do is snipe at other peoples posts if there seems to any Irish Nationalist aspect to it of any sort. I would really love to know what part of our History & Heritage actually interests you. What positive threads have you pair even started?

if you go to profiles, you will see all threads started by me, if you are interested

the part of the Irish history and heritage that interests me, is the bit where the facts are laid out, not some romantic notion about Irish Martyrs.

If you can tell me how Irish people have benefited from Bobby Sands starving himself to death, then I am interested.

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

because I don't like the guy I'm a bigot??

I'm entitled to me opinion as much as anyone. I have not insulted you, so why insult me?

or is it you that's the bigot?

Theres a difference between not liking someone, and directing vitriolic abuse towards them! Theres a number of historical people, past and present that I'm not fond of either, but I'm not going to lower myself by typing the hateful abuse, that you seem happy to type.

So to answer your question, yes you certainly are a bigot if thats the type of opinion you hold. Unless you retract your remarks about Bobby Sands, I will still consider you to be bigoted!!!!!

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Theres a difference between not liking someone, and directing vitriolic abuse towards them! Theres a number of historical people, past and present that I'm not fond of either, but I'm not going to lower myself by typing the hateful abuse, that you seem happy to type.

So to answer your question, yes you certainly are a bigot if thats the type of opinion you hold. Unless you retract your remarks about Bobby Sands, I will still consider you to be bigoted!!!!!

hateful abuse? me?

I get this a lot. Because I am English and I do not blindly believe that everything British is wrong and everything carried out by the PIRA etc is in the name of freedom and therefore acceptable, I am considered right wing, a bigot etc. (I'm probably more left wing to be honest)

I love this country, it’s a great place to live (Even with the rip off prices for so many things) and I am really impressed with the way the Irish people have risen to the challenge of the massive changes in the last 10 years.

I work alongside some great people who are dedicated to bringing to Ireland the best services they can and make this country a real economic force. Then I drive down the N11 through Glen of the Downs and I see a big sign saying “Free the Columbian three” or “Remember Bobby Sands” or, the current one I think is “Stop Harassment of Republicans”. When I see that, I can’t help feeling that despite a lot of people trying drag this country into the 21st century, there are still a vast amount of people in this country living in a time past.

Digging up and re-burying some bloke hung for murder in Manchester 120 years ago, or naming a street after a guy who starved himself to death so he didn’t have to wear a Prison uniform is not romantic, all it does is show that a lot of people still have a chip on their shoulder and the politicians know how to buy votes cheaply.

Now, explain to me what Bobby Sands did that makes him worthy of a street name? he was an active member of a terrorist organisation who got caught. Because he was not entitled to political prisoner status, he decided to starve himself to death. What did he expect to achieve? Did he really think Margaret Thatcher was going to change policy just for him? I applaud his dedication, but dedication to pointless over blown gestures are another.

He needlessly threw his life away and suddenly he is the new Che Guevara?

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

hateful abuse? me?

I get this a lot.

This is hardly surprising, with posts like your previous one.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Now, explain to me what Bobby Sands did that makes him worthy of a street name?

Bobby Sands gave up his life as a sacrifice to highlight the injustices perpetrated by a British government who treated his people (Catholics) as second class citizens in the six county statelet. It's much wider than the prison clothes uniform issue that you talk about.

Fratton Fred wrote:

He needlessly threw his life away and suddenly he is the new Che Guevara?

The muriels on the walls in West Belfast, and the writings on walls and bridges around the country show how much esteem he is held in. Bobby showed courage, integrity and honour in his actions, and was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, his life.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

the part of the Irish history and heritage that interests me, is the bit where the facts are laid out, not some romantic notion about Irish Martyrs.

If you can tell me how Irish people have benefited from Bobby Sands starving himself to death, then I am interested.

So just because a young man grows up in a harsh sectarian environment, gets involved in an organization that kills people based on their religious/political beliefs, then gets caught driving a car bomb into his "enemies" neighbourhood and ends up being detained at Her Majesty's Pleasure and is now dead , you think he should not be remembered for whatever good he did, or tried to do for his community.

You think it is fitting that you name a urinal after him. Is that right? Do you really think that?

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

So just because a young man grows up in a harsh sectarian environment, gets involved in an organization that kills people based on their religious/political beliefs, then gets caught driving a car bomb into his "enemies" neighbourhood and ends up being detained at Her Majesty's Pleasure and is now dead , you think he should not be remembered for whatever good he did, or tried to do for his community.

You think it is fitting that you name a urinal after him. Is that right? Do you really think that?

in my opinion, I think it is as right to name a urinal after him, as I do a street.

take that as a step down if you wish, but my opinion of the man has not changed.

Hagar

Well you better rethink the name of your urinal for my last post was the profile of the recently deceased, and much repected on all sides, DUP Politician David Ervine who died yesterday may he Rest In Peace.

You Sir, would want to spend some more time learning a little bit about about this country.

Forget about our History & Heritage it's way beyond you.
Start off small, try this week's newspapers.
Come back when you know more than Imperialist bigotry.

That is all.