30 Days as a Muslim

Suff

Hi,

Just found this on youtube, I found it intersting and shocking in the same time. it does address some topics and rises some valid pointers as well.

I know its a bit long but really worth the watch if you have time.
If you do I would like to discuss some of it here with you

Thanks

InFront

Yes you're right Suff, interesting and shocking are two accurate words for it. I admired the man's willingness to go and discover Islam amidst that conservative Christian environment. May Allah leads him and his family to Islam Insha'Allah.

It seems like a positive experience in itself even if he can, in conservative America, just accept Islam as a peaceful, brotherly faith. That is not very much to ask. I hope that he does so now.
And as for some of the responses that the reporter was receiving on the street, this is what was shocking more than anything. I suppose you have to prevent yourself from getting angry about it, Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.

the_new_mr

Yes, I've seen this before. It's a really good clip and like InFront says, even if he doesn't embrace Islam, it's good that he can now see that Islam is nothing to worry about like some people think and he can even help in ridding people of their ignorance.

Have to say though, not sure about the first Imam he was talking to. He didn't really seem to be with it and it was clear that there was a language barrier as he didn't always understand what the guy was saying or asking him.

Some of the other guys that he talked to later were pretty good though (like the one teaching him some Arabic).

In case anyone is wondering, InFront's comment of

InFront wrote:

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.

means (roughly): "We are for God and to Him is our return"

In the future, please translate anything you say in Arabic (or any language other than English).

Karl Hungus

It was a very interesting watch, but I'd hardly call it shocking. So yeah, discrimination against Muslims, is anyone here going to honestly claim they've never known this happens?

If anything it's sugar-coated. Aw, poor you, people politely declined to sign your petition? Shocking! As for the so-called death threats, people talk big behind their monitors, it amounts to nothing in real lise. I've gotten death threats before, big deal. Now, if anyone had followed through with such a threath, I'd find that shocking, if only for the reason that people who talk hard behind internet anonymity are all hot air.

Anyway, did anyone else find it a little disturbing that the guy had to go to different sources to find the information because his appointed guide was so unforthcoming?

I also found that the video really glossed over the issue of the publically broadcast call to prayer. I'm sure that being woken up by blaring speakers at 5:30 in the morning, and another 4 times consecutively every day isn't something that all the non-Muslims in the area who have their own lives to live are very comfortable with, and that it's very ignorant and inconsiderate of the Muslim community to willfully impose this on everyone.

I find myself wondering about whether or not that issue is being resolved or not.

Anyway, interesting video, but not shocking.

Suff

I suppose the shocking moments in the clip were the DIRECT association with terrorism, I was shocked and upset about it for one reason particularly...the Ignorance in America.
people were not interested in any petition that protects aginst racial and faith discrimination specially when a Muslim is doing the petition! (even if he/she were an American Muslim)

so much for their democracy and the land of the free,...loud empty slogans thats what they are.

No wonder Bush won the election for the 2nd time, surely he can win it again depending on having enough people who look to their CNN, FOX terror color alert levels everyday!!

Yes,..the Imam in the Karbala Islamic Center was very poor in terms of langauge and communication with "Muslim Dave", how did he get that position I really dont know! he didnt even explain anything to dave just immediately went to question Dave's beliefs. thats not the way to discuss faith (IMO)

Also what did you think of having to apologise to 9/11 events?
IMO.. Condemnation is more appropriate then an apology! cos the apology might be interpreted as all Muslims had a hand in it!

The Beard thingy was silly, not eveny muslim in the world grow a beard or wears cloths like pakistani people!!

The Main point which I found to be the only solution was stated by the wife (sorry her name escapes me) but her point was excellent....

Muslims should get out of their cocouns and interact with the society.

That would should be the case in Ireland as well !?

exiztone

Here's a question for you guys, and I'm not trying to be cheeky. It was all very well sending a conservative white American God fearing family man to stay with these people. They both believe in worshipping Abraham's God. They believe in family, good clean fun etc... And it was generally seen that the Christian learned something about Islam.

What would have happened if they sent a camp homosexual instead? Would the Muslim community have willingly accepted him into their community? I would have liked to see how open they all are to a progressive idea/person.

I honestly haven't a clue what would happen. It would be interesting though!

InFront

the_new_mr wrote:

In the future, please translate anything you say in Arabic (or any language other than English.

Sorry, I forgot that rule, won't happen again!

Also what did you think of having to apologise to 9/11 events?
IMO.. Condemnation is more appropriate then an apology! cos the apology might be interpreted as all Muslims had a hand in it!

Agreed, I think it would be wrong for a Muslim to apologize for it.
However although I would have no problem condemning such things, I find that being asked to do so continually (on boards more so than real life) gets equally frustrating.
There is no reason why we, as Muslims, should have to first 'qualify' our faith to others by condemning 9/11 or 11-7. Just as I don't think Muslims don't need to apologize for it, I would question the apparent necessity to come out and condemn it simply because one is also a Muslim.
If non-Muslim Irish people were asked continually to condemn the IRA when they visited Britain, I think they would find this rather frustrating also.
In the circumstances, it is correct to condemn murder, but is it correct to ask someone to condemn murder just because you know they are Muslim or Irish?

Suff

exiztone wrote:

What would have happened if they sent a camp homosexual instead? Would the Muslim community have willingly accepted him into their community? I would have liked to see how open they all are to a progressive idea/person.

Interesting indeed but honestly......nothing new would happen!
Just the same having sent him/her to a strict Catholic or Baptist Anglican/ Jewish community,...would they accept him/her in open arms? ( get their 'off the record' response!)

exiztone

InFront wrote:

Sorry, I forgot that rule, won't happen again!



Agreed, I think it would be wrong for a Muslim to apologize for it.
However although I would have no problem condemning such things, I find that being asked to do so continually (on boards more so than real life) gets equally frustrating.
There is no reason why we, as Muslims, should have to first 'qualify' our faith to others by condemning 9/11 or 11-7. Just as I don't think Muslims don't need to apologize for it, I would question the apparent necessity to come out and condemn it simply because one is also a Muslim.
If non-Muslim Irish people were asked continually to condemn the IRA when they visited Britain, I think they would find this rather frustrating also.
In the circumstances, it is correct to condemn murder, but is it correct to ask someone to condemn murder just because you know they are Muslim or Irish?

Well, see the problem is that modern society is quite suspicious of Islam, so while you're not exactly obliged to condemn extremeism, I think it would be a smart choice seeing it might shed a better light on your light and bring you onto better terms of the non-Muslim west.

wes

exiztone wrote:

Well, see the problem is that modern society is quite suspicious of Islam, so while you're not exactly obliged to condemn extremeism, I think it would be a smart choice seeing it might shed a better light on your light and bring you onto better terms of the non-Muslim west.

Muslims do condemn terrorism. Its when people demand it thats insulting especially when you have already condemned it. Also the people who tend to demand are very often bigots.

Schuhart

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anyway, did anyone else find it a little disturbing that the guy had to go to different sources to find the information because his appointed guide was so unforthcoming?

I put that down more to the simple logistics of trying to organise such a programme. For instance, I thought the wife in the host family seemed more positive about the whole business than the husband. I wondered if the idea of participating in the programme was more her idea than his. I was also struck how she tended to speak the most sense down to the moment when the two men are gutting each other about terrorism and she breaks in with ‘time to pray’, gently insisting on the break when the boys want to persist with the argument.

While in one sense cringe inducing, I sort of liked Dave’s honesty in simply asking the thoughts that occurred to him. While his ‘any sleeper cell activity’ question seemed plain weird, if that’s what’s on his mind and on the mind of other Americans the thought won’t go away until it’s asked.

Suff wrote:

so much for their democracy and the land of the free,...loud empty slogans thats what they are.

I actually sort of took the spin of how the refusals to sign his petition were firm but polite. I think you have to distinguish between religious freedom, which is obtainable in the US unlike some other parts of the world, and people on the street having a negative reaction to a particular religion. I wouldn’t sign a petition on religious freedom sponsored by Scientology, just because I’d reckon they had a hidden agenda. That fits into my right of association, not their right to religious expression. Muslims in America may well face discrimination, but I didn’t feel the petition example made that point.

InFront wrote:

May Allah leads him and his family to Islam Insha'Allah.

the_new_mr wrote:

It's a really good clip and like InFront says, even if he doesn't embrace Islam, it's good that he can now see that Islam is nothing to worry about like some people think and he can even help in ridding people of their ignorance.

As will be known to regular posters, I’m a complete cnut and there’s no reason why anyone needs to justify their honest reaction to the film to me. But I did have one more thought.

The film depicted Dave struggling to find a way of honouring his promise to live as a Muslim without compromising his own faith. He went to a degree of trouble and enquiry to find a way of doing that. He persisted in the face of the evasive Imam, and then found one who understood his problems. I suppose the equivalent for a Muslim might be to find a way of participating in a Christian service in a way that respects the Quran.

Dave seemed to find his way by holding a crucifix and identifying the parts of the prayer he could join in with. Does responding to that with a hope (however vague) that Dave and his family convert to Islam reflect an understanding of where the other person is coming from or what he’s doing to reach out to people with a different view? Is the traffic all one way?

Dontico

Suff wrote:

so much for their democracy and the land of the free,...loud empty slogans thats what they are.

amusing that the so called "defenders of democracy", have toppled democratic governments for dictators. iran in the 50's was it?

as a non-muslim, i find islamaphobia really annoying, muslims shouldnt appolagise for 9/11. its not like osama went around doing a survey before he decided to do it.

philologos

Dontico wrote:

amusing that the so called "defenders of democracy", have toppled democratic governments for dictators. iran in the 50's was it?

as a non-muslim, i find islamaphobia really annoying, muslims should appolagise for 9/11. its not like osama went around doing a survey before he decided to do it.

They can't apologise for something they haven't done. Yassir Arafat if I recall expressed regret and condemned the attacks in the coming days afterwards. Muslims all over the world condemned this misinterpretation of what the prophet has said. The attackers of 9/11 have paid with their lives and will be punished for their actions as they showed no remorse in doing so.
The media portrayal is what people judge by in this world today. It's wrong to do so but thats the way it has been done. You never see the work that Islamic groups do to try to work to better intergrate Muslims into our growing society.

Edit: yes the Coup D'Etat of Iran was in 1950's caused by the CIA stirring up trouble basically.

Hobbes

Welcome to the forum Dontico, kindly read the charter if you wish to continue in the forum. Thanks.

Suff

Schuhart wrote:

Muslims in America may well face discrimination, but I didn’t feel the petition example made that point.

I thought the Airport checks were, the point about the petition was they didnt even listen to what he had to say or give him a chance to explain, they just judged him by his looks and that's saying alot.

InFront

Schuhart wrote:

He persisted in the face of the evasive Imam, and then found one who understood his problems. I suppose the equivalent for a Muslim might be to find a way of participating in a Christian service in a way that respects the Quran.

Is the traffic all one way?

This man, by any standards made an excellent attempt to discover Islam, and it was clear that whatever preconceptions he came with about Islam or Muslims, he seems to engage with all of them and asks for clarity on those issues throughout.
However it is impossible to live truly as a Muslim, as far as I understand, without compromising your non-Muslim faith. I can go and live with Christians and see how they live and pray from the sidelines and by talking to their religious leaders, I can understand what they believe, but I will never really understand life in a Christian's shoes.

So we need to ask ourselves 'how far do we want to go?' If somebody put it to me and said "would you reciprocate?", my answer would be no. I mean I would estimate that 80 - 90% of my friends are a collection of Christians and atheists, because living on my road, going to my old school, and in college, that was always pretty inevitable!

So is it not fairer to presume that the minority in a country, such as Ireland, and the United States, already have quite an informed idea of how it is to live as Christian?
Statistically, are we not more likely to be aware of their society, observing from the sidelines already? It is quite a strange thing when the thought occurs to me, that I live in Ireland and have never read a book on Christianity or been in a Christian Church. But I live amongst Christians. A Christian is my next door neighbour, postman, friend, policeman, lecturer, my boss in work is a Christian.

Hmmm. That wasn't supposed to turn into an essay. My point is that while it is necessary to engage with other communities, and for Muslims this happens to be very essential (whatever that means) at present, engagement does not mean to "walk in his shoes", it can mean to observe him as he walks in his shoes. I cannot really understand Christian life unless I become a Christian and live as such, not for a month, but forever. Placing yourself in that environment is not a pre-requisite to friendship or peace with it. While it is imperative that we learn to live peacefully in one society, we must respect the fact that this one society is made up of many smaller ones also.

So our hope that Dave and his family "convert to" Islam is not unreasonable. You can pray for a rather vague 'more Muslim Ireland' whilst still respecting the rights of everyone in it to believe in whatever religion they wish to, and to come to Islam or not. We cannot go between them and Allah

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error" (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

I cannot really understand Christian life unless I become a Christian and live as such, not for a month, but forever.

Indeed, and I think that's even reflected in the example in point, if you consider the bit after Dave's radio appearance where its put to him (among other things) that at the end of the process he'll go back to his own life.

I'm not suggesting that you need to go and live as a Christian, or anything like that. It was more the assumption that conversion is the object. I'm not sure that's what you've addressed - you may and I may not be following what you are saying. I find the line 'So our hope that Dave and his family "convert to" Islam is not unreasonable.' doesn't seem to me to grow out of the rest of your text, unless you are saying is 'we are the one true faith, so everyone should convert to us ultimately anyway'. Which means you really haven't learnt as much as you think.

InFront

I don't think that conversion was at the heart of this programme, in that it wasn't what the producers were aiming for.
Any desire that the Muslim community who Dave engaged with, or us watching it that Dave would accept Islam is simply borne out from just the simple reason that a Muslim loves and admires Islam.

Who would not want to share that thing which they admire? Isn't it completely natural?

But that desire is not at odds with people of other faiths.
Hopefully I am not going to oversimplify Islam here, but imagine you are of the opinion that the Irish Times is a far better newspaper than The Independent, its news items fit with your personal and philosophical and economic positions. Wouldn't you wish that people who read The Independent would read the wonderful things you are hearing about in The Times?

Wouldn't you wish that they might see the worth in the economic and social opinions expressed by that newspaper?

Even though both have the same basic principles - just as the five pillars of Islam are mirrored in some ways in other faiths - a lot of its application and method and beliefs/ traditions are different in both publications.

Such is the case, though more on a more serious level, with Islam and its brothers of Christianity and Judaism.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

Does responding to that with a hope (however vague) that Dave and his family convert to Islam reflect an understanding of where the other person is coming from or what he’s doing to reach out to people with a different view? Is the traffic all one way?

I said:

the_new_mr wrote:

It's a really good clip and like InFront says, even if he doesn't embrace Islam, it's good that he can now see that Islam is nothing to worry about like some people think and he can even help in ridding people of their ignorance.

after InFront had said:

InFront wrote:

May Allah leads him and his family to Islam Insha'Allah.

and said:

InFront wrote:

It seems like a positive experience in itself even if he can, in conservative America, just accept Islam as a peaceful, brotherly faith. That is not very much to ask. I hope that he does so now.

So, all we are saying here is that we hope he becomes Muslim but if he doesn't, then we hope that he sees Islam as peaceful and not the ugly misrepresentation that's on the telly these days.

I'd have to say ditto to:

InFront wrote:

Who would not want to share that thing which they admire? Isn't it completely natural?

You can't blame us for that.

It's Dave's decision in the end and we respect his decision. It's a HUGE positive that he now knows that Islam is not what he originally thought (although on a minor point, there may still be a few misconceptions concerning clothes for example).

The main goal of the program was to iron out these misconceptions and I think that, on the whole, it did that and I would recommend that every non-Muslim watches it.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

Who would not want to share that thing which they admire? Isn't it completely natural?

the_new_mr wrote:

So, all we are saying here is that we hope he becomes Muslim but if he doesn't, then we hope that he sees Islam as peaceful and not the ugly misrepresentation that's on the telly these days.

I suppose it was more the context that struck me, rather than the general idea that any theist presumably expects the world would be better if everyone shared their particular faith.

Dave looks like an essentially decent individual who modifies his views when he recognises he has misjudged others. Our knowledge is based only on what we see in the programme. But that would strike me as evidence of someone who has already achieved a degree of enlightenment. It just looks a little strange to my eyes to follow it up with a thought that he’d be better still if he didn’t drink beer, eat pork and sell insurance. (OK, maybe he would be better off not selling insurance.)

I don’t know if this makes the point any clearer, but I’d feel odd in this context saying that the host family wife, who seemed pretty sensible, would be so much better off if she dropped the Hijab and embraced atheism. If someone has achieved a degree of human insight, through whatever path, is it not enough to simply acknowledge that?

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

Dave looks like an essentially decent individual

No doubt.

Schuhart wrote:

But that would strike me as evidence of someone who has already achieved a degree of enlightenment.

I have to say, the scene where he was praying with the crucifix made me feel for him a lot. Personally, I believe the idea of the crucifix is wrong since I don't believe that the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was crucified and I have no doubts about that but, if his intention was as it appeared, then he was making a supreme effort to do what was asked of him whilst not wanting to do what he thought would upset God. He was so concerned that that he was betraying God that he felt that he had to do it that way. I myself have no idea about God's intention but maybe Dave will be rewarded for his sincerity. Only God knows.

Schuhart wrote:

I don’t know if this makes the point any clearer, but I’d feel odd in this context saying that the host family wife, who seemed pretty sensible, would be so much better off if she dropped the Hijab and embraced atheism.

You might feel odd saying it but isn't that your opinion anyway? If someone was to ask you now if she should or shouldn't remove the hijab, what would be your answer? Just for record, she was supremely sensible. One of the most impressive people in the show for me. Very wise and far more sensible than her husband anyway.

Schuhart wrote:

If someone has achieved a degree of human insight, through whatever path, is it not enough to simply acknowledge that?

I acknowledge it. Kudos to him. I like Dave though. And I want good things for someone I like as much as I want them for myself. No harm in that.

I have non-Muslim friends. I wish they were Muslim because I want it for them. And I know some of my Christian friends wish I was Christian for the same reason. The intention on both sides is sincere so no harm in that either.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

You might feel odd saying it but isn't that your opinion anyway?

That might be a point of difference. I doubt if theism/atheism would make much of a difference to her sensible outlook, so I really don’t see any great need for her to drop her faith. Its not unlike the way I feel about our old mate Bruno Guiderdoni. If someone displays significant understanding of the human condition, I don’t particularly care what badge they take for themselves.

the_new_mr wrote:

If someone was to ask you now if she should or shouldn't remove the hijab, what would be your answer?

Her description of the Hijab was something like ‘it’s originally a Jewish tradition, which is why you see Mary depicted wearing one. We see ourselves as following an Ibrahimic faith.’ The choice of those words expressed to me that she had an intelligent appreciation of the tradition which I wouldn’t see a pressing need to question.

If she had said ‘I wear this because it means I’m modest and God will like that so much he’ll let me into paradise and everyone would be better off if they became a Muslim and did the same’, it might be a different proposition. But I doubt (maybe wrongly) that’s how she’d put it.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

I doubt if theism/atheism would make much of a difference to her sensible outlook, so I really don’t see any great need for her to drop her faith.

Yes but the point is that if you are/were an athiest, you think she should because, as far as you're/would be concerned, it's the right choice.

Anyway, I think this thing has been blown way out of proportion at this stage. All that happened was that InFront said that he hoped that Dave would become a Muslim (a sincere thought) but that even if he didn't, it's a positive thing that he can accept Islam as a peaceful religion and then I agreed with him.

In terms of your two statements that you drew into comparison. I would imagine that, to a certain extent, both statements would be her view (although the implied "I'm better than you are" undertone wouldn't be there so perhaps the second statement would be more like: "I wear this because I try to be modest as I believe that's what God wants me to do"). Don't get me wrong here. Let me elaborate to avoid confusion.

If someone does something, then that usually means they're convinced with it, right? If someone thinks something is right then they would usually want that for their friend and neighbor (InFront's newspaper example is suitable here although Islam has the highest example). The difference is that a Muslim woman who understands her faith will have both statements running in parallel in her mind. A Muslim woman who doesn't understand her faith maybe quite as well may only have the second one in her mind.

Also, the first statement highlights the common ground between Judaism and Christianity which is what the woman in the video was trying to do.

Anyway Schuhart, this video was supposed to be about unity, not division. Why d'you go and spoil the mood?

And speaking of unity. I'd suggest everyone see the After 30 days as a Muslim video as well. Great speech by Morgan Spurlock.

Suff

the_new_mr wrote:

Also, the first statement highlights the common ground between Judaism and Christianity which is what the woman in the video was trying to do.

Which is correct to do, they all held the same message, same traditions and the belief in ONE GOD.

Anyway Schuhart, this video was supposed to be about unity, not division. Why d'you go and spoil the mood?

Maybe he's concentrating/Addressing the negative aspects of this subject!

And speaking of unity. I'd suggest everyone see the After 30 days as a Muslim video as well. Great speech by Morgan Spurlock.

I did
He mentioned that there might be more of this sort of doc's in the near future.

Dontico

Jakkass wrote:

They can't apologise for something they haven't done.

sorry. didnt mean to give the wrong impression.
i left out the 'nt' in shouldnt.
ment to say "shouldnt appologise".

Dontico

Hobbes wrote:

Welcome to the forum Dontico, kindly read the charter if you wish to continue in the forum. Thanks.

sorry about typing error. ment to say "shouldnt".
the fact i started saying i didnt like islamophobia, should point out i'm not anti-muslim.

the_new_mr

No worries Dontico

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

Also, the first statement highlights the common ground between Judaism and Christianity which is what the woman in the video was trying to do.

Indeed it does – which might be the value to reflect on in both directions.

the_new_mr wrote:

Anyway Schuhart, this video was supposed to be about unity, not division. Why d'you go and spoil the mood?

But you know I just can’t shut up.

In truth, I just felt a need to say that I thought you were missing an important part of the story. I don’t think anyone has to justify or suppress their honest reaction to the programme. But, for what’s it worth, I did want to put that thought out there.

I found the same thought came to me again watching the “After 30 Days” programme when Dave says he no longer believes there is only one path to God. That strikes me as an attitude that deserves some respect and, dare I say it, reciprocation. I’m an atheist, but I think Dave’s a decent human being and I don’t think losing his religion would make him any better.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

In truth, I just felt a need to say that I thought you were missing an important part of the story. I don’t think anyone has to justify or suppress their honest reaction to the programme. But, for what’s it worth, I did want to put that thought out there.

Fair enough. But don't you think you might have been a bit quick to judge exactly what anyone thought just from reading one sentence?

Schuhart wrote:

I found the same thought came to me again watching the “After 30 Days” programme when Dave says he no longer believes there is only one path to God. That strikes me as an attitude that deserves some respect and, dare I say it, reciprocation. I’m an atheist, but I think Dave’s a decent human being and I don’t think losing his religion would make him any better.

Well, I think it's been said a number of times on this forum that a non-Muslim isn't necessarily going to hell. Their judgment rests with God and He will never judge them unfairly. As God says in the Quran:

Qaf:29
"The sentence that cometh from Me cannot be changed, and I am in no wise a tyrant unto the slaves."

I too think that Dave is a thoroughly decent human being and I have a lot of respect for him. I would say that, in fairness, the difference between your point of view and one like mine would be that you see that as long as he's decent then that's all that matters because that affects the life of this world. Whereas I see that him being decent is a good thing and that's good for the life of this world and, God willing, good for him in the Hereafter. But that doesn't stop me from wishing him to be a Muslim.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

Fair enough. But don't you think you might have been a bit quick to judge exactly what anyone thought just from reading one sentence?

But the subsequent discussion confirms what I thought. Whatever way you look at it, its a reluctance to just accept people as they are.

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, I think it's been said a number of times on this forum that a non-Muslim isn't necessarily going to hell.

That's not particularly the issue - its more an openess to accepting that other religions might offer an equally valid framework for salvation. Taking the case in point, Dave's acceptance that there's more than one path suggests to me that he sees no pressing need for Muslims to convert. I think he said something like 'we could do with a few more million of them' which sounds like a very open and accepting attitude. Can you see how a wish, however mild, for him to convert seems strange by comparison? Could you not wish for a million more Christians like Dave?

the_new_mr wrote:

But that doesn't stop me from wishing him to be a Muslim.

But how would being a Muslim make him a better person when we can both already value his humanity?

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

But the subsequent discussion confirms what I thought.

Not quite. You put it that:

Schuhart wrote:

Does responding to that with a hope (however vague) that Dave and his family convert to Islam reflect an understanding of where the other person is coming from or what he’s doing to reach out to people with a different view?

as if that was the only response of ours which is not the case. We said that we hoped that he embraced Islam and that even if he didn't, he's a solid guy and it's good that he now knows what Islam is really all about and can help in removing ignorance etc.

As I said in my previous post, the main difference in our points of view are based on the fact that I am a theist whereas you are an atheist and therefore you place little or no importance on the person's faith as long as they're decent.

Schuhart wrote:

Whatever way you look at it, its a reluctance to just accept people as they are.

No idea what you're talking about there. I would kindly ask you not to put words in my mouth. Wishing that someone embraces Islam and not accepting them as they are are worlds apart.

Schuhart wrote:

Can you see how a wish, however mild, for him to convert seems strange by comparison?

I can see where you're coming from there but I still think the difference lies in our difference in beliefs.

Schuhart wrote:

Could you not wish for a million more Christians like Dave?

I do. I wish that there were at least a million more Christians like Dave. That doesn't change the fact that I wish they were Muslims first but if they can't be then I'd like them to be like Dave. Sincere, open-minded and all-round nice guy. Also, I think that Dave was comparing the Muslim community he met to the average American since he was talking in the context of being productive for society etc.

Schuhart wrote:

But how would being a Muslim make him a better person when we can both already value his humanity?

He may be the same person as when he is a Christian. But isn't the best thing I can do is wish for him what I wish for myself?

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

the main difference in our points of view are based on the fact that I am a theist whereas you are an atheist and therefore you place little or no importance on the person's faith as long as they're decent.

I'm drawing attention to what Dave says in the film(s). He is a theist, so the division on this point hardly comes from atheism.

the_new_mr wrote:

Wishing that someone embraces Islam and not accepting them as they are worlds apart.

If you wish someone to change faith or, for that matter, change their shirt it means you are not accepting them as they are.

the_new_mr wrote:

I wish they were Muslims first but if they can't be then I'd like them to be like Dave.

Putting words into his mouth, I’d expect Dave might say ‘I’d prefer a person to be a good Muslim than a bad Christian’. (He has already effectively says he sees no difference between being a good Muslim and a good Christian).

Would you prefer Dave to be a good Christian or a bad Muslim?

the_new_mr wrote:

But isn't the best thing I can do is wish for him what I wish for myself?

I’d suspect the best thing is to recognise that he is achieving what you wish, but through a different path. That’s what he recognises in the people he met.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

I'm drawing attention to what Dave says in the film(s). He is a theist, so the division on this point hardly comes from atheism.

And I've already said that a Christian may well get into heaven. That leaves me at a slightly different stand point than Dave obviously. Now, can we stop with the going round in the cirlces?

Schuhart wrote:

If you wish someone to change faith or, for that matter, change their shirt it means you are not accepting them as they are.

I'm sorry you think that. Clearly you don't see my point. I don't think I can elaborate on this any more than I have already so maybe you can read my posts again to try and see what I mean?

Schuhart wrote:

Would you prefer Dave to be a good Christian or a bad Muslim?

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer someone to be a good Christian than a bad Muslim as long as their intention for not being Muslim is sincere (not rejecting it purely for rejection's sake) if ya catch my drift? I would imagine that someone who is a good Christian would be closer to what God wants them to be than a bad Muslim. God knows best.

Schuhart wrote:

I’d suspect the best thing is to recognise that he is achieving what you wish, but through a different path. That’s what he recognises in the people he met.

I still think the best thing you can wish for someone is what you wish for yourself if you sincerely see that what you have is what God wants. There's no shame in that.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

Now, can we stop with the going round in the circles?

I find religious discussion is a bit like travelling to Heathrow Airport. You have to circle about six times before attempting a landing.

the_new_mr wrote:

I would imagine that someone who is a good Christian would be closer to what God wants them to be than a bad Muslim. God knows best.

That is, of course, much the point.

the_new_mr wrote:

And I've already said that a Christian may well get into heaven. That leaves me at a slightly different stand point than Dave obviously.

You’ll appreciate I was questioning that the division in opinion had its source in atheism. I take it that point is dropped.

If both you and Dave mutually admit the other is on a potential path to salvation, why the need for any change? I think that’s the key point still open. What is about beer drinking, pork eating, insurance selling Dave that needs to change?

the_new_mr wrote:

I'm sorry you think that.

You’ll understand, its not so much that I think that. It’s simply that’s what the situation is. You may like Dave, respect his sincerity and uphold his right to be different. But if you want to change him, you’re not accepting him as he is.

the_new_mr wrote:

I still think the best thing you can wish for someone is what you wish for yourself if you sincerely see that what you have is what God wants. There's no shame in that.

Clearly there’s no shame in an honestly held opinion. But I that view is, IMHO, still not really explaining why someone who practices the substance of a decent life is improved by adopting the trappings of this or that religion. This is not an atheist-inspired view, although it may be easier to accept from that perspective. Judged on what he says in the two films, Dave has come to that understanding that what’s important is substance and not form.

wes

Well I watched this a while ago and Dave is a good guy. I am not bothered about anyones religions and I personally view religion as inherited culture in a lot of ways and believe that no one should change or that I should wish them to change. If someone choose to do so and it improves there lives then good for them.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

You’ll appreciate I was questioning that the division in opinion had its source in atheism. I take it that point is dropped.

I appreciate that point but there is a difference.

Say, for example, a Christian theist sees me as a Muslim. They may wish me to be a Christian but think that I'm still okay as a Muslim. That's a theist's view. Maybe that's the way Dave feels, maybe not. I don't know. Another Christian may see that I can be either Muslim or Christian and that either one is fine and it doesn't matter overall. Maybe that's Dave's view. Maybe not.

On the other hand, an atheist thinks that it doesn't matter either way and that's because he doesn't place that much value on religion in the first place and that's why I was saying that, as an atheist, your position on this is always gonna be different. Dave is either the first or second person. I'm the first person (as a Muslim... obviouisly). And you're the third person.

Schuhart wrote:

If both you and Dave mutually admit the other is on a potential path to salvation, why the need for any change? I think that’s the key point still open. What is about beer drinking, pork eating, insurance selling Dave that needs to change?

First of all, if Dave sincerely wants to be on the path that God wants him to be on then I believe that if he sees it the way I see it then he'd want to be a Muslim. This is just like the people in "Turning Muslim in Texas". I once saw someone filling in a form when they were going to take their Shahada (declaration of faith) and it had a question of "Why do you want to be a Muslim?" The person simply answered: "Because I believe Islam is the religion that Allah wants us to follow". Short, simple and beautiful all at the same time.

The beer drinking and pork eating is covered by the above point (and let's not forget that "the one can lead to the two... can lead to the three..." ). And I don't believe insurance is wrong to do and I'm basing my view on that of Islamic scholars as well as my own personal logic. And God knows best concerning insurance.

Schuhart wrote:

You’ll understand, its not so much that I think that. It’s simply that’s what the situation is.

That's not the way it has to be. To use your t-shirt example:

Say if I don't like to wear red t-shirts or t-shirts with a funny slogan on the back. Say that I don't like to wear t-shirts at all! That doesn't mean I don't accept someone who is wearing a t-shirt. Maybe I have a whole load of logical reasons why they shouldn't wear a t-shirt. That doesn't change the fact that I respect their choice and that's that. It doesn't have to be as black & white as you put it. Part of the life is accepting people and their decisions for who and what they are. I don't see it like you do.

Schuhart wrote:

But I that view is, IMHO, still not really explaining why someone who practices the substance of a decent life is improved by adopting the trappings of this or that religion.

You're really missing the point here completely Schuhart. It's not about being improved. It's about following what God wants him to follow. Simple as that. If I believe that I'm following what God wants me and all humanity to follow then that's what I want for someone else. Especially if they're a nice guy/gal.

Schuhart wrote:

Judged on what he says in the two films, Dave has come to that understanding that what’s important is substance and not form.

Well, as I said already, we can't know for sure whether Dave would want Ameer to be a Christian or not. But we do know that he accepts that, from his point of view, Muslims can find salvation as Muslims. I think he's had a lot of long theological thoughts to himself and good for him for doing so. I'd say he grew a lot as an individual through that whole experience.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

On the other hand, an atheist thinks that it doesn't matter either way and that's because he doesn't place that much value on religion in the first place and that's why I was saying that, as an atheist, your position on this is always gonna be different.

I'd agree that an atheist finds it easier to dismiss the detail of this or that practice - be it taking Communion or praying facing Mecca. But I would point out that there are some theists who do have that view that all religions ultimately head back to the one God.

the_new_mr wrote:

First of all, if Dave sincerely wants to be on the path that God wants him to be on then I believe that if he sees it the way I see it then he'd want to be a Muslim.

I (finally!!)think you are right that we won't be able to close the gap any more on this one. I suppose at least we have agreed that the empty practice of any faith is pointless.

the_new_mr wrote:

(and let's not forget that "the one can lead to the two... can lead to the three..." ).

He must have tried it sometime.