AIB charging 'astronomical' fee for records of payments

jimmycrackcorm

I'm glad I don't bank with this shower of ....

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=299&si=1747739&issue_id=15048

As I work in software development, I find it incomprehensible why a request for a historical statement is so difficult to provide given the technology base of the bank. Either the bank is blatently ripping people off or their IT people are woefully incompetent that they cannot change the start date of statement when doing a statement run. something tells me it is the former rather than the latter.

Cabaal

For those not bothered to reg a unison a/c the story is

AN angry reader has accused AIB of taking advantage of its customers over the charges it imposes for historical banking records.

The reader, who does not want to be named, said he was taken aback at what the bank sought to charge to provide his records.

"I recently needed to acquire historical information from my AIB current account regarding a payment I had been making from that account every month," he wrote.

"The payment had been ongoing for about two-and-a-half years. As I didn't keep my bank statements that far back I contacted AIB to request they provide me with the information. 24-Hour Banking could not provide me with the information as their records only went back five months."

The reader was advised to contact his local branch. "They also said that their records only went back five months; in order to find the information I was looking for they told me that I would need to request a duplicate bank statement going back the two-and-a-half year period I requested.

"To my surprise they also told me there would be an administration cost of €2.57 per page!

"Last year my bank statement for the 12 months was 50 pages long. Doing the maths (I'm suddenly glad I did honours for the Leaving Cert), this equates to a cost of €321.25."

He added: "In the age of modern technology I can surf the internet and find out pretty much anything I like."

For example, he could quickly find out that the real name of footballer Pele was Edson Arantes do Nascimiento, or that in 1848 Niagara Falls experienced a break of half an hour, when an ice jam blocked the source river.

"Yet our nation's largest bank, with resources and technology vastly superior to my simple middle-management laptop, can not find out the most basic of information for me.

"It is an absolute disgrace that banks should consider their customers so naive as to not be appalled by this astronomical fee! Another example of AIB taking advantage of customers."

Asked to comment AIB said: "Unfortunately, there is a cost to the business in processing duplicate statements, which is passed on to those customers who request the service."

Have Your Say by emailing cweston@independent.ie. Views expressed are those of the author and do not reflect the opinion of the Irish Independent.

Sangre

Ptsb is €2.50 a page as well. BOI would probably be similar, banks rarely differ too much on these costs. 80% of the time you tell people this they usually end up looking and finding the old statements.

stepbar

Sangre wrote:

Ptsb is €2.50 a page as well. BOI would probably be similar, banks rarely differ too much on these costs. 80% of the time you tell people this they usually end up looking and finding the old statements.

Any thing pre 2002 (in BOI anyhow) usually is stored on microfilm so therefore someone physically has to go and look for the statements. So thats what the consumer is paying for, the labour involved. You would be suprised how hard it is to search through multiple statements etc. Now one may argue that it should be kept on an IT system but im sure the banks involved have it worked out and have done some sort of cost benefit analysis which would suggest it is more cost effective to store the statements on microfilm rather than spend the extra money on additional hardware / software. TBH it makes economic sense because there are few people who would need to go back that far for statements. There is no point keeping transactions live on a system when only a small minority of people will ever need to access them.

parsi

I agree with sangre - sometimes if people realise there is a cost involved then they suddenly find what they need rather than you having to do it for them...

How much would his accountant charge for similar work ?

ScouseMouse

I wanted to know what AIB held on me last year, so make a request to the Data Protection Officer in bankcentre Ballsbridge. For a fee of 6.35, they are obliged to give you a print out of everything - yes everything, they hold about you on computer. This included screen shots, statements and all the other records they held. They have no choice !!!

The file I got was nearly 6 inches thick.

eth0_

Superscouse - send an email to the Irish Indo informing them of this.
Then sit back and smile as AIB and the other banks are swamped. Serves them right with their refusal to drag themselves into the 21st century.

stepbar

superscouse wrote:

I wanted to know what AIB held on me last year, so make a request to the Data Protection Officer in bankcentre Ballsbridge. For a fee of 6.35, they are obliged to give you a print out of everything - yes everything, they hold about you on computer. This included screen shots, statements and all the other records they held. They have no choice !!!

The file I got was nearly 6 inches thick.

And what did you find out that you didnt already know?

Cabaal

stepbar wrote:

And what did you find out that you didnt already know?

ah, his statements at a much lower cost?

Sponge Bob

Thats a data protection request superscouse not a "request for statements" .

To get the €6.35 package see first

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4

and then for some bits of AIB

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/register/default.asp?TVar=mypage:2;kw:

and finally the main bit is

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/register/display.asp?ID=0424%2FA

Write to that fella and tell him you want all your data

All banks charge an arm and a leg for "copy statements" , not just AIB.

parsi

I suppose this does show that one should keep ones statements just in case. Along with your tax certs and payslips.

TBH yer mans comments about being able to use google from his laptop are a bit irrelevant especially in light of the fact that up o recently AIB were using Win3.11 on their branch terminals...

ScouseMouse

Sponge Bob wrote:

Thats a data protection request superscouse not a "request for statements" .

To get the €6.35 package see first

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4

and then for some bits of AIB

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/register/default.asp?TVar=mypage:2;kw:

and finally the main bit is

http://www.dataprivacy.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/register/display.asp?ID=0424%2FA

Write to that fella and tell him you want all your data

All banks charge an arm and a leg for "copy statements" , not just AIB.

I know it is a data protection request but the required statements, the subject of this thread, were all included.I got every statement from the start of time.

ScouseMouse

stepbar wrote:

And what did you find out that you didnt already know?

I really wanted to find out my rating for credit purposes, whether there were any notes about me that were inaccurate and generally what info AIB held on me.

All for 6.35 euro

brightspark

The banks know that with the Data Protection Act anyone can simply demand all their details for only 6.35.

This is one of the reasons some banks changed their charging systems a few years ago.

stepbar

superscouse wrote:

I really wanted to find out my rating for credit purposes, whether there were any notes about me that were inaccurate and generally what info AIB held on me.

All for 6.35 euro

You sound like you were refused for a loan or something. Were you not happy with the reason given or something? or is that you have a general distrust banks?

cregser

stepbar wrote:

You sound like you were refused for a loan or something. Were you not happy with the reason given or something? or is that you have a general distrust banks?

Maybe he was just taking advantage of his right to information about himself for the sheer heck of it. If someone had 6 inches thick worth of material on me I'd be curious too.

ScouseMouse

No, i have never been refused anything and I have a good relationship with my bank AIB. The reason I did it was to see what depth of information they were carrying about me and if any of it was incorrect. My next search will be the irish credit bureau in Clonskeagh as they hold records for all the main banks and finanacial institutions. When you apply for credit or a loan, it is in the agreement that the institution will record a search with them and check what you history is like. I have an excellent history but still like to keep an eye on them.

Random

superscouse wrote:

No, i have never been refused anything and I have a good relationship with my bank AIB. The reason I did it was to see what depth of information they were carrying about me and if any of it was incorrect. My next search will be the irish credit bureau in Clonskeagh as they hold records for all the main banks and finanacial institutions. When you apply for credit or a loan, it is in the agreement that the institution will record a search with them and check what you history is like. I have an excellent history but still like to keep an eye on them.

Without giving me your financial or personal information, what sort of info did you get back?

What type of notes had they written? What else is there other than your bank account transactions and any calls about your credit card?

stepbar

superscouse wrote:

No, i have never been refused anything and I have a good relationship with my bank AIB.

superscouse wrote:

I have an excellent history but still like to keep an eye on them.

Well it sounds like you dont trust them. In fairness the bank doesnt hold any additional information about you that you havent already provided them with. Unless the people dealing with you are clairvoyants are something :rolleyes: For example a loan application, somebody has to make a decision on the application based on the information provided. So yeah they may write down supporting notes in order to get your loan etc approved. If you are frank and honest in your dealing you should not have any problems. The person(s) dealing with your application have to satisfy themselves that (a) you can repay the loan / have the capasity to do so and (b) that you're not goin to do a runner with the banks money. Therefore they have to make a judgement call, yeah or nea. Because its on their head if you dont satisfy a & b, and they get into **** not you. Nor does it pluck credit ratings out of the sky either. 9 times out of 10 the credit rating you have is fairly accurate (unless you are the victim of identity theft or something, which is not the banks fault).

This notion that people have (i.e "I dont trust the bank", "The bank are trying to screw me over" etc etc) is ridiculus. The banking industry is one of the most regulated industries in Ireland. If a bank goes out of line, the regulator is down like a top of bricks. Its not in the banks interest to be screwing over customers. Ok AIB overcharging and all that, it came out into the public domain, the bank was fined and customers got their money back. Banks cant pull that **** anymore. And in fact regular audits are carried out in addition so really the bank has to be straight and honest in their dealings.

In short, I dont see what you hoped to gain by wasting bank time searching for information that you have already provided the bank with. Ok you are entitled to the information and thats fair enough. But unless there is a specific reason (i.e a mortgage refusal etc) I dont think you should be wasting peoples time.

BTW I dont work for AIB

jimmy2shoes

stepbar, i think you are going on about something that has no real meaning. someone posted on here saying that aib rip people off to get bank statements re-sent to them. no one can deny that over 2 euro a page is a rip-off. if you don't think so then yes you do work for the AIB. superscouse was pointing out that you can under data protection you can have all your statements from since you opened your bank account for 6.35 euro's, a nice little f*** you to aib, and if in future i need a statement to check some things out then i will definitely go doen this route.

KdjaCL

I work for a company that holds this data, and we charge crazy money for storage and even crazier money for you to see or get your own files delivered. Afaik we about average for the storage prices so i can see why banks charge so much.

kdjac

Cryos

jimmy2shoes wrote:

stepbar, i think you are going on about something that has no real meaning. someone posted on here saying that aib rip people off to get bank statements re-sent to them. no one can deny that over 2 euro a page is a rip-off. if you don't think so then yes you do work for the AIB. superscouse was pointing out that you can under data protection you can have all your statements from since you opened your bank account for 6.35 euro's, a nice little f*** you to aib, and if in future i need a statement to check some things out then i will definitely go doen this route.

BOI and indeed most banks have been slow to embrace new technologys (infact alot of NT Infrastructure is still in Most banks these days as they are too tight to spend the money), so as said above alot of stuff is still on Microfiche. But this is going to change soon.

To be honest i dont think PTSB have charged me for statements ? Then again all myne are online

stepbar

jimmy2shoes wrote:

stepbar, i think you are going on about something that has no real meaning. someone posted on here saying that aib rip people off to get bank statements re-sent to them. no one can deny that over 2 euro a page is a rip-off. if you don't think so then yes you do work for the AIB. superscouse was pointing out that you can under data protection you can have all your statements from since you opened your bank account for 6.35 euro's, a nice little f*** you to aib, and if in future i need a statement to check some things out then i will definitely go doen this route.

It has lots of relivance. Superscouse requested info under the FOI act and got back 6inches of info. Im questioning why you would need to go to the trouble of finding out this bullcrap in the first place. Its not too hard to put away your bank statements / bank info in a folder in fairness. Its not really a rip off when you think of the amount of labour that has to go into actually pulling up the statements / info you require. Chances are that a member of branch staff may have to be pulled off from some other job for the day. Go to an architect and see how much him / her will charge per hour to for example, make revisions on a house plan. As well as that it also stops people from requesting statements willy nilly, when they hear the cost that soon changes the tune. Actually €6.35 is taking the p1ss for the amount of work involved.


I actually work for BOI and I bank with AIB (long before I joined BOI), so dont be going thinking im defending AIB.

Geek Nose

The Complainer wrote:

As I didn't keep my bank statements that far back...

And who's fault is that? Man, stupid people annoy me. He throws out his statements, and he expects the bank to bail him out for free. They're a business, and anyone with half a brain knows they charge for statement reprints.

yer mans comments about being able to use google from his laptop are a bit irrelevant

I agree. Totally irrelevant. What a spa.

Sangre

jimmy2shoes wrote:

stepbar, i think you are going on about something that has no real meaning. someone posted on here saying that aib rip people off to get bank statements re-sent to them. no one can deny that over 2 euro a page is a rip-off. if you don't think so then yes you do work for the AIB. superscouse was pointing out that you can under data protection you can have all your statements from since you opened your bank account for 6.35 euro's, a nice little f*** you to aib, and if in future i need a statement to check some things out then i will definitely go doen this route.

Most people require duplicate statement for loans/mortgages with banks other than their own. They need offical bank printed statements, they can't just print it from their online banking. I would imagine the format from the Data Protection Act isn't the same as a statement (feel free to correct me).

Anyway, banks run on some computer software dating back to the 60s. It would literally cost 10s of millions to upgrade because of transporting information, new systems, shutting down servers, lose of business etc., The bank has looked into it obviously, its not in their interests to be out of date.

Geek Nose

Sangre wrote:

they can't just print it from their online banking.

They can actually, and just have the branch stamp the pages. I have done it a few times. It can be done in seconds for free at the customer service desk.

Sangre

They can but a lot of places won't accept that.

Sponge Bob

superscouse wrote:

The reason I did it was to see what depth of information they were carrying about me and if any of it was incorrect.

How far back did it go by the way ??

Solair

Banks computerised a long time before most other companies had even heard of computer, and before many people had even seen one.
They are extremely slow to change systems that work as they're systems that are processing billions of euro of transactions.

There is a massive level of validation required for a major financial system i.e. ensuring that it works reliably, does calculations correctly, stores data in accordance with best practice and with due regard to regulation.

So in general, bank IT systems in most banks world-wide tend to be older technology and very "tried and trusted".

Many of these machines are large UNIX-based servers or in some cases run strange operating systems like OS/2 that have disappeared.

They tend to adapt to newer technology at the front end i.e. you'll see more modern workstations on desks, ATMs etc etc but the core sytems can be pretty old and reliable.

It's quite possible that your statements require an archive search. Remember that until recently vast storage facilities were very expensive, and remain pretty pricy, so all your transactions from the 80s and 90s are probabally on microfilm or some other form of electronic long term storage.

Also, banks are not generally fond of magnetic tape / disk technologies for long term archiving as the tapes degrade over time. Hence, microfilm is still popular!

dotsman

I'd be surprised if the information received via the Data Protection Act can be used instead of a Statement if using it for a loan/mortgage application.

Solair is correct on his analysis of IT in banking. The back-end is all mainframe (PL/1, COBOL etc). AIB's Front-end is XP in Head Office locations and Linux in Branch environments.

€2.50 per page is very cheap. The information required to produce statements from years ago is not stored in a readily available form. AIB has to store 100s of millions of transactions every single day. To access an individuals transaction history (and verify it) requires extensive data-mining.

As as stepbar put it. If it was very cheap (or even free) everyone would be asking for duplicate statements willy nilly even if they don't need them.

At €2.50 per page, your bank won't be making a profit on you requesting duplicates. And if you still think this is rip-off Ireland, £2.50 (€3.75 approx) per page is standard in the UK.

kc66

This is the same for a records going back 6 months, not just going back years. The gf needed a 6 month statement for a mortgage application. They charged around €2.50 per page.

MrPudding

I am currently working for a bank in the uk. I work in the Data Storage Management team.

Once you are looking for data going back any period of time it becomes quite troublesome to retreive the data. We can bring the data back, it is all there, but it is not a simple matter to retreive it.

The amount of "live" data that the systems can hold is limited. The mainframes will be attached to very expensive disk. As the data ages it will be moved to cheaper methods of storage. The further it moves from the tier one expensive disk, the longer it takes, and the more involved it is, to get it back.

In some cases the tapes the data is on will be on an offsite storage facility. No problem, just ove them a call and they will send it on a bike or van. Of course they will charge for this.

Perhaps you don't care about this but the fact remains, it can cost money to retrieve the data. The banks are not a charity, they have to charge.

MrP

ScouseMouse

Nobody said the banks are a charity but my heart does not bleed for any bank that makes 1.7BILLION yes BILLION profit in one year ( source : google - breaking news - aib -2005.)

I can understand the real pain in the ass you would have paying for a van or motorcycle to bring the relevent tapes to yoU, or even buying an extra disk to hold this data inhouse, which could threaten an obviously tight profit margin....






NOT

MOH

It's a bit of a joke if they can't provide statements going back 6 months without resorting to offsite backups.

stepbar

stepbar wrote:

Its not too hard to put away your bank statements / bank info in a folder in fairness.

..............

Sangre

Since statement printing is automated I'd imagine the cost is having to manually check if the statements are stored are not and then enter the detailed to be printed etc.,

Solair

There's also an element that bank charges don't necessarily reflect newer technologies. Even if more and more data is "on-line" within the bank, it doesn't mean that they'll adopt a new charging system for retrevial of that data.

That being said, there are definitely considerable amounts of administration required to do retreive old statements. It's not like scrolling back through your inbox in gmail.

In many cases it involves inputting horribly convoluted commands into a big old main frame system with a user interface from hell, created in back in the 80s.

It's also not unreasonable for a bank to expect that you might file your statements of accounts at home in a lever arch. To be fair, if you don't, you can't really expect them to do your admin for free.

The banks do make huge profits, but that's primarily from mortgage lending and business banking, not from current account activities and they will, like any business, attempt to recover costs incurred.