Did deValera want a united Ireland?

silverharp

What is the accepted view on this, I remember reading in Tim Pats book on him that for political reasons he wouldn't have wanted a large urban population that would not be voting FF? is this just an opinion?

walrusgumble

dev was not very clear cut on the ulster question. like haughey he used it when on his travels (usa with regard to dev) when ever he wanted to divert attention away from others matters such as the economy. i think there is an actual book on dev and ulster. i am sure by reading tim pat's book you will have noted a big bias towards collins so beware, his book is good though.

did he really want a united ireland? only he knows cause the civil war focused alot on that oath.we all know what happened in 1926, how he dismantled the 1922 consitution in the 1930's. i am sure you know about the old articles 2 and 3 of bunreacht na heireann which claimed the six counties.

whether or not he got the time due to other problems, he didn't really dwell on the six counties in latter years.

vesp

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Capt'n Midnight

Churchill offered him the North if he took Ireland in on the allies side. Not sure how genuine the offer was though. But one factor was that in a 36 county republic FF would not have a majority and the balance of power could be held by the Unionists.

Aedh Baclamh

vesp wrote:

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Vesp )

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Churchill offered him the North if he took Ireland in on the allies side. Not sure how genuine the offer was though. But one factor was that in a 36 county republic FF would not have a majority and the balance of power could be held by the Unionists.

Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.

Aedh Baclamh

You like pushing the boundries, don't you Vesp?

MILLIONS!

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.

war ?
Ah you must mean mean the emergency, 2 September 1939 - 1 September 1976

FF having the balance of power was the big issue for FF.
Sweden, Switzerland,Turkey, Spain were all neutral so we could have been too, esp since Dev was slightly dictatorial.

And you missed out a lot of the victims of the war, the Chinese, Poles, Religions.

csk

I don't think it's fair to pin the whole "didn't want a United Ireland cos Unionists would have balance of power" purely on De Valera, obviously it would be a concern but that could be labelled at every Irish politician since partition, TBH.

He was offered a United Ireland during WWII, but of course he had the more pertinent concern of keeping Ireland out of what really was just a messy old European conflagration. Plus it would only come about after the end of the war and there were no guarantees the Unionists would actually co-operate or the British would make them. So on balance he was right not to accept IMO.

He was definitly one of the most vocal of Irish politicians on the subject of Partition, yet he never really persued it with conviction. I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on his terms.

Capt'n Midnight

csk wrote:

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on his terms.

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on a plate.

He probably could have prevented the civil war escalating and a stronger Republic / less violence would have a better chance of reuniting.

csk

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on a plate.

He probably could have prevented the civil war escalating and a stronger Republic / less violence would have a better chance of reuniting.

Yes I would have to agree.
I should have probably added to him being "one of the most vocal on the issue", that he was also the one most responsible for cementing partition in place.

I would say that he could have prevented civil war full stop if he really wanted what was best for the country.

No civil war would have meant a stronger chance of reuniting all right. I don't know if that would have meant less violence though, I think Collins for one would not have let things stand and he would have had no qualms about violence. Would that have been good thing though, is anyone's guess.

walrusgumble

csk, you are right about collins, but i am sure, just beore someone like vesp gets word in, he was also a rationale and decent politican and organiser (check out 800 years thread on certain opinions) any way there is written proof of collins intentions on the north.

one thing about dev, he naturally, was too busy trying to create a nationalist irish economy ie self sufficency etc (many countries did this, but at this time it died on its ass until lemass era)

as we all know churchill was not keen on the handing over of the treaty ports, may have helped britain and shorten the war, but dev was dead right to stand up to him. has anyone ever heard dev's broadcast in rebuttal to churchill's after the war, implying churchill might have considered invading/occupying/breach or ignore ireland's neutrality.

maybe he meant well with his ideas, but they definitley helped to widen the gap between nationalist ireland and the unionists.

csk

Ah yes, I'd have to agree there, Collins was probably the most rationale and decent of all to have come out of the Independence movement. "The greatest Irish man since Brian Boru" as someome else once said.

Don't know about De Valera being too busy with the economy, I'd say he could have made time if he really wanted too.

I don't think Churchill actually recognised Irish neutrality as legal, although this was only his opinion and AFAIK plans of an invasion were drawn up with Churchill in favour of such an action. :eek:

I have only ever read parts of his speech, it would be interesting to hear it though.

vesp

Vesp : "Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed."

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

MILLIONS!

Thats right, six million actually died in the Nazi camps.

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Vesp : "Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed."
Thats right, six million actually died in the Nazi camps.

<sigh>
yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

It roughly breaks down as three million non-polish jews and six million poles ( three million jewish/three million non-jewish ) and six million russian civilians and three million russian POW's and another six million between serbs croats romanians roma handicapped etc.
not forgetting very roughly six million chinese killed by the japanese ( including a quarter of a million in retaliation for the Doolittle air raid - making it the biggest number of people killed for one raid (Dresden got hit over a few days) and six million killed by the chinese themselves - ( one explosion on a dam caused flooding that killed over a million, making it an order of magnitude worse than the atomic bombings. )

Anyway that all happened over there, miles away, just like WWI or the Armenian genocides or the Russian Civil War or the Spanish Civil War or ... any of the other events where millions died in the decades before WWII
or the Rif Wars or the Polish - Russian wars or the other Turkish wars and genocide, the Winter War. All while many neighbouring countries were able to keep away.

look at the time line of the war, the war in the west was a standoff for most of the time before and after the fall of france and norway, so was more like a status quo, later on of course the vast bulk of the axis powers were deployed against the russians

1939
germany and russia split poland between them
phony war
1940
Germany takes over France and Norway
Russia takes over the Baltic states
1941
Axis head to the Balkins
Invasion of Russia
Americans join in
1944
D-Day


Don't forget for years RTE News started off by listing major world events and then finishing with "but first, today in Northern Ireland"

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

It roughly breaks down as three million non-polish jews and six million poles ( three million jewish/three million non-jewish ) and six million russian civilians and three million russian POW's and another six million between serbs croats romanians roma handicapped etc.
not forgetting very roughly six million chinese killed by the japanese ( including a quarter of a million in retaliation for the Doolittle air raid - making it the biggest number of people killed for one raid (Dresden got hit over a few days) and six million killed by the chinese themselves - ( one explosion on a dam caused flooding that killed over a million, making it an order of magnitude worse than the atomic bombings. )

Anyway that all happened over there, miles away, just like WWI or the Armenian genocides or the Russian Civil War or the Spanish Civil War or ... any of the other events where millions died in the decades before WWII
or the Rif Wars or the Polish - Russian wars or the other Turkish wars and genocide, the Winter War. All while many neighbouring countries were able to keep away.

look at the time line of the war, the war in the west was a standoff for most of the time before and after the fall of france and norway, so was more like a status quo, later on of course the vast bulk of the axis powers were deployed against the russians

1939
germany and russia split poland between them
phony war
1940
Germany takes over France and Norway
Russia takes over the Baltic states
1941
Axis head to the Balkins
Invasion of Russia
Americans join in
1944
D-Day "

Disregarding some of your figures may be open to debate / correction, what is your point ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Don't forget for years RTE News started off by listing major world events and then finishing with "but first, today in Northern Ireland"

lol I remember well back in the early eighties when a hero was starving himself to death for Ireland he was the headline news on RTE, but whenever he came off hunger strike there was not another word about him.

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Disregarding some of your figures may be open to debate / correction, what is your point ?

in part to show how people have tunnel vision about certain historical facts, and keep repeating the mantra that "we" deserve more because "we" were victimised most

vesp wrote:

lol I remember well back in the early eighties when a hero was starving himself to death for Ireland he was the headline news on RTE, but whenever he came off hunger strike there was not another word about him.

hero :rolleyes:
"starving himself to death for Ireland" - eh no, he and a lot of people might have thought they were getting rid of the old regime , but what they were really doing (whether they knew it or not or supported it) was trying to get power for a minority who might have very different political beliefs to them. A classic example would be Iran after the Shah.

joebhoy1916

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

And you know this for a fact?

Was there six million bodies recovered? No..

vesp wrote:

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Wasnt he the one who didnt agree with the agreement? Would I not be right In saying he started the civil war?

So them guy's in 40's were thug's but Dev wasnt Im sure he got more people killed than your normal IRA guy..

vesp

joebhoy1916 wrote:

And you know this for a fact?

Yes, if you know the slighest bit of history about the second world war you will know this is accepted fact.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Was there six million bodies recovered? No..

That is because so many were cremated. If you - like I did - ever visited the crematoriums in the Nazi concentration camps and / or read books by survivors then you may be able to grap some facts.

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

in part to show how people have tunnel vision about certain historical facts, and keep repeating the mantra that "we" deserve more because "we" were victimised most

So in other words you are highlighting the absurdity of FF worrying about having the balance of power or not when so many other nations - some neutral - were affected so much in the world war, with many millions killed, left homeless etc ? And when the battle of the Atlantic hung in the balance ?

Aedh Baclamh

That is because so many were cremated. If you - like I did - ever visited the crematoriums in the Nazi concentration camps and / or read books by survivors then you may be able to grap some facts.

How will visiting reconstructed areas improve my knowledge?

vesp

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

How will visiting reconstructed areas improve my knowledge?

I never suggested you visit "reconstructed areas", whatever you mean by that. I do suggest, however, that you educate yourself about some of the facts of the WW2 and Nazi Germany. If you visit what is left of the concentration camps it may make the subject more interesting for you and you would learn a lot. The camp at Dachau for example has an excellent educational museum attached.

joebhoy1916

vesp wrote:

Yes, if you know the slighest bit of history about the second world war you will know this is accepted fact.

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

Fratton Fred

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

it's important, because 6 million is genocide and 2 million is just a bit of devilment right:rolleyes:

joebhoy1916

I'm not saying that.

He said six million jews were killed and that's fact but nobody know's how many were killed could be higher or lower.

Anyway's topic was did Dev want a united Ireland Id say he did back at 1916 them day's but maybe later I wouldn't say he was bothered.

Fratton Fred

From what I can deduce with my limited study of irish History, Dev wanted what was best for Dev and this has, I feal, shaped irish politics for the last 80 years.

silverharp

Fratton Fred wrote:

From what I can deduce with my limited study of irish History, Dev wanted what was best for Dev and this has, I feal, shaped irish politics for the last 80 years.

That sums up the impression of Dev I'm left with,

walrusgumble

no matter how great he was when he was great, he was more of a states man than a domestic politican, but yes, unfortunately ye are right about your opinions on dev.

i recently referred that maybe he was too busy dealing with the economy, another person made a good point that he could have time to deal with the north, which is true but. imo,

if you consider that unionist had a very good reason to stay within the union (their economy such as linen making, ship building etc) was far superior to our economy then

(our civil war destroyed alot of our roads/railway lines/bridges/power supply) and our economy was relied manily agriculture (which needed alot of updating) and small factorie such as jacobs and guiness. remeber most of the world saw our country back then as backward.

one thing for sure that was needed was to get this side of the country back on its feet before taking on another 2 million people. if you remember harlem and wolfe protested that they would go to scotland if ni left the union. this might be all well, it only one company but you must consider that it employed many citizens of belfast of all creds, (although preventing discrimination in the workplace was not the order of the day)

its all fine and well for a nation once again, but another when the young people immigrate and there is no one left to run the country

vesp

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

I know all right, the same as anyone who has basic knowledge of WW2. The fact is you do not know and do not care. Maybe you think it was two million and the other 4 million Jews who were in pre war Europe just disappeared or were abducted by aliens.

walrusgumble

vesp wrote:

I know all right, the same as anyone who has basic knowledge of WW2. The fact is you do not know and do not care. Maybe you think it was two million and the other 4 million Jews who were in pre war Europe just disappeared or were abducted by aliens.

whats has this got to do with dev and a united ireland. this is what this thread is about.after all dev remained in power for a long time after ww2.

for the last few weeks its all you are harping on about, especially in threads that are related to ireland. look if you want to talk about ww2 and the jews, by all means start a new thread, you will be interested to know some people will agree on your opinions. either way this thread is about irish issues which have never really been tackled. so leave your rants out .

incidently were you in the war or something, for all ye know there could have been over 10 million jews killed or indirectly killed. the way you go on, oh about the facts you know is like some snotty noise tw£t who is just out of trinity or ucd. why cant you disagree with people in a more effective manner without being so condensending. authors of history write events according to their interpretations, so you get one book saying eg 6 million and another saying 2

vesp

walrusgumble wrote:

so you get one book saying eg 6 million and another saying 2

It was mentioned because what was being discussed was Ireland neutrality during WW2.
What book says only 2 million ?

N.B walrusgumble ; please do not personally attack another poster

joebhoy1916

He's attacking your post's not you. Your talking about jews been killed when that's not the topic and your still talking about them.

vesp

If you look back at the thread you will see I actually wrote " Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.". This was in response to someone elses comment about Dev's / FF's stance during WW2. The likes of Aedh Baclamh responsded with the comment "MILLIONS! " implying he/she did not think it was millions. Another poster thinks it was only 2 million. Why are some people so ignorant / poorly educated about what happened in other mainland EC countries in living memory of some of those living there ?

joebhoy1916

Ok here Is one for you.

Say I went to school and the teacher's were catholic and they were telling me to rise up against the british empire you wouldn't agree with that would you?

My point Is dont believe everything you hear. Just because you learn something In school doesn't mean It happened. Yes genocide happened It was a bad thing no one is saying It wasn't but you dont know for sure that six million were killed your going on like an old history teacher.

To be honest I dont give a **** what happened It was before I was alive America and all the other country's let It happen they didn't give a ****, either do I. The topic is about Dev and Ireland not Hitler and the jews.

You said yes six million actually died but how many bodies were found? It's not fact history book's are wrote and rewrote.

vesp

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Ok here Is one for you.

Say I went to school and the teacher's were catholic and they were telling me to rise up against the british empire you wouldn't agree with that would you?

I would not agree with what...your teacher being catholic ? I could not care less if your teacher was catholic, hindu, black or white. If they told you to "rise up against the british empire" that would be quite funny. You would be within your democratic rights to do whatever you want in a peaceful way.
Rise up against the Ottoman empire or the little men from outer space for all I care.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

My point Is dont believe everything you hear. Just because you learn something In school doesn't mean It happened. Yes genocide happened It was a bad thing no one is saying It wasn't but you dont know for sure that six million were killed your going on like an old history teacher.

To be honest I dont give a **** what happened It was before I was alive

If you do not give a **** about what happened in the world before you were born what are you contributing to a debate about Dev's era for so ?

joebhoy1916 wrote:

America and all the other country's let It happen they didn't give a ****, either do I. The topic is about Dev and Ireland not Hitler and the jews.

No America and all the other country's did not approve of Nazism. 120,000 Irishmen , along with people from many countries around the world, volunteered to join the British forces and helped in the fight against Nazism. Some of the Irishmen who helped liberate the concentration camps are still alive today.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

You said yes six million actually died but how many bodies were found? It's not fact history book's are wrote and rewrote.

Why do you keep bringing up about the Jews ? Even the German government acknowledges 6 million died in the concentration camps - if you ever visit any of the excellent museums attached to the old camps, like the one at Dachau ( only about half an hour from Munich, or Munchen as they say ) , you will see the facts for yourself. They have dozens of flags there representing the many countries the victims were from. The victims were also not just Jews, some were communists, some were gypsies,etc etc. You will see the large ovens / crematoriums where bodies were cremated. While heaps of bodies piled high on each other were found in some camps when they were liberated, historians and governments calculated and cross referenced the numbers who died from a variety of sources eg Nazi records, govt. census figures etc. Your question "how many bodies were found" does not reflect well on you.

Aedh Baclamh

All those people fighting against Nazism, and then it is discovered that Albert Folens, yes, as in Folens publishing company, was a Nazi War Criminal. He was a member of the SS and fled to Ireland where he then set up a company which aided future generations in their educational pursuits.

Interesting stuff, eh?

csk

vesp wrote:

Blah Blah Jews dammit!

Blah Blah Nazis Dammit!

Blah Blah Paddies are bad and probably something about Sean Russell too Dammit!

Blah Blah Blah Blah I'm vesp and I have a pathological hatred of all things Irish because some German fella killed some Jews one time !

Really what is the point of your posts?
As walrus gumble and joebhoy1916 and now myself pointed out the holocaust has nothing to do with De Valera wanting a United Ireland.
So start your own topic [not really needed now is it : PHB]

walrusgumble

vesp wrote:

It was mentioned because what was being discussed was Ireland neutrality during WW2.
What book says only 2 million ?

N.B walrusgumble ; please do not personally attack another poster

if you feel that way, i appologise, it is not the intention, and i have noticed your reason for bringing it up, but not only have you been correcting people on the matter, which yes you are right to do so, but, if you check out your previous threds on various issues in this forum, you have appeared to come across a snotty,

to prevent this thread about dev and united ireland becoming anti vesp or a ah we dont care about ww2 (i am sure a majority are aware of the horrors) just start a ww2 thread, because ye ireland kinda had dodgy connections with germans (proclamation 1916 implied germany ie our gallant alie in europe; guns supplied by germany(then again so were uvf's); dev's condolence at death of hitler etc)

lets all try and skick to the theme of this thread please

vesp

csk if you want to quote me at least have the decency and honesty not to alter my posts / insert your sentences and pretend they were mine. Being Irish, I can understand some of the posters on this threads lack of even basic knowledge about "the emergency" years in Europe ; I also do not find it particularily surprising your lack of tolerance and plain bad manners eg where you write "**** off".

csk

vesp wrote:

csk if you want to quote me at least have the decency and honesty not to alter my posts / insert your sentences and pretend they were mine. Being Irish, I can understand some of the posters on this threads lack of even basic knowledge about "the emergency" years in Europe ; I also do not find it particularily surprising your lack of tolerance and plain bad manners eg where you write "**** off".

:rolleyes: Yet another off topic post, well done.

walrusgumble wrote:

i recently referred that maybe he was too busy dealing with the economy, another person made a good point that he could have time to deal with the north, which is true but. imo,

if you consider that unionist had a very good reason to stay within the union (their economy such as linen making, ship building etc) was far superior to our economy then

(our civil war destroyed alot of our roads/railway lines/bridges/power supply) and our economy was relied manily agriculture (which needed alot of updating) and small factorie such as jacobs and guiness. remeber most of the world saw our country back then as backward.

one thing for sure that was needed was to get this side of the country back on its feet before taking on another 2 million people. if you remember harlem and wolfe protested that they would go to scotland if ni left the union. this might be all well, it only one company but you must consider that it employed many citizens of belfast of all creds, (although preventing discrimination in the workplace was not the order of the day)

its all fine and well for a nation once again, but another when the young people immigrate and there is no one left to run the country

Fair enough points, but why wasn't he able to do both at the same time?
I mean he was able to bring the Free State closer to being a Republic during this period.
So why not the whole island towards reunification?

I remember reading a biogaraphy I think it was Dywer's where it said the reason he didn't work towards unity when bringing the Free State closer to a Republic, was because he hadn't campaigned on that issue so he didn't feel he had a mandate.
That to me is a fairly bullsh!t reason considering he didn't have a mandate to start civil war but it didn't stop him.

The bottom line with De Valera is if he wanted to he could have done more.

walrusgumble

csk wrote:

:rolleyes: Yet another off topic post, well done.




Fair enough points, but why wasn't he able to do both at the same time?
I mean he was able to bring the Free State closer to being a Republic during this period.
So why not the whole island towards reunification?

I remember reading a biogaraphy I think it was Dywer's where it said the reason he didn't work towards unity when bringing the Free State closer to a Republic, was because he hadn't campaigned on that issue so he didn't feel he had a mandate.
That to me is a fairly bullsh!t reason considering he didn't have a mandate to start civil war but it didn't stop him.

The bottom line with De Valera is if he wanted to he could have done more.

i totally agree with your sentiment. i was just playing devil's advocate for the sake of this debate. just a point to submit for this debate,

you know he was a bit of a cute hoor,(pardon the expression) and yes he was the complete politican (ie more concerned with face value and short term plans and what he can achieve so history would adore him etc). but it may have caused further considerable harm and stir more problems up in the north had he continued to speak about the north considering northern ireland contributed greatly to ww2 (i know u know about the amount of sodiers from both communities who fought and the many homes hit in belfast during the air raids) but the free state did not actively partake in ww2. my point is and i am sure you are aware, it that ww2 brought ni even more closer together with britain and widened the gap between them and us. ok yes dev sent up fire brigades and first aid camps to the boarder but you could imagine a football team like man utd,fergie drilling into the team the mantra its us against the world. just remember one of the rewards ni people got from britain after the war was a welfare state (all of uk got it) they got a good sum from USA marshall plan topay for the motorways. down here our hopes of a mother and child care scheme were destroyed by the church (consider how bad tb and child moratility rates were here and other horrible issues) (oh yeah the bit of marshall plan we got was wasted on drain worthless bogland not even fit for turf)

at that point people maybe even catholics were able to put up but being in ni (there was a period before mid 60's where both communities could live together peacefully enough)

that argument may not rock your boat but i do agree. he has been criticised about this. during his time in america (early ff days and 1919) he did the tours and spoke about united ireland, then did nought. but hen look at another figure,haughey. the man born in every county lol, the son of a northener. supposedly involved in the arms crisis then goes quiet on the ni issue for a while, then late 1970-1980's in power and economy is fecked plays the green card shouting "northern ireland is a failed entity" (he was right there at that point at that period of time though) criticises fitzgerald for anglo irish agreement 1986

i guess and agree with you, dev used the issue when it suited him. and i dont think many people not even his loyal wife eimear (i think its her name) really know what was going on in his head at he best of times

Zebra3

vesp wrote:

Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.

How honourable. Going off and fighting for Imperial Britain. :rolleyes: Britain and carrying out genocide go hand in hand. It's a real eyeopener reading Mein Kampf and realising how inspired Hitler was by England. He loved their propaganda from WWI and no doubt was inspired by their concentration camps which they had in Africa at the start of the 20th century and which they brought back again in the 1950s.

Also, I've seen a good few documentaries where it's been proven that Britain & the USA knew of the concentration camps as early as 1943 and done nothing (like bombing the railway lines) to put a stop to German plans. Given the prevalent racist attitudes of the time in Britain and the US, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if both countries were happy that Germany was going to rid Europe of the Jews. Sure what happened at the end of WWII? Britain and the US fasttracked the Jews out of Europe and into Palestine.

vesp

Zebra3 wrote:

How honourable..

A more correct few words you never said...

Zebra3 wrote:

It's a real eyeopener reading Mein Kampf and realising how inspired Hitler was by England. He loved their propaganda from WWI and no doubt was inspired by their concentration camps which they had in Africa at the start of the 20th century and which they brought back again in the 1950s..

lol you obviously have not read Mein Kampf. The relatively tiny internment camps you refer to in one small part of the British Empire were not comparable to the Nazi extermination camps....only an Irish republican extremist could think they were concentration camps comparable to the Nazis. Certainly the British camps in S. Africa only detained a twentith the amount of people the Belgians detained / imprisoned in Africa in the early 20 century.

Zebra3 wrote:

Also, I've seen a good few documentaries where it's been proven that Britain & the USA knew of the concentration camps as early as 1943 and done nothing (like bombing the railway lines) to put a stop to German plans.
..

They knew there were camps but nobody was fully aware of the full horrors inside / the 6 million killed until after they were liberated. The Allies did bomb some railway lines but this was not an effective or efficient use of air power, as lines were easily repaired in hours , often using forced labour.

Zebra3 wrote:

Given the prevalent racist attitudes of the time in Britain and the US, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if both countries were happy that Germany was going to rid Europe of the Jews.

"racist attitudes of the time in Britain and the US" - you must be joking. At least the US and Britain let in Jewish refugees, along with refugees from other countries. The Irish govt did not - either before, during or after the holocaust. And the US and Britain actually liberated many camps. All Dev could do was go to the German embassy and offer his condolences on the death of the Nazi leader. Shame on our "leader". This was after many camps had been liberated.

Zebra3 wrote:

Sure what happened at the end of WWII? Britain and the US fasttracked the Jews out of Europe and into Palestine.

The Jews wanted - probably rightfully - their own state and the US and Britain helped them. In fact to this day the Jewish states greatest two allies in the world are the US and Britain. If you want to look at the Jews being fastracked out of anyplace, take a look at how they were intimidated and hounded out of Limerick by the Redemptorists early in the 20th century.

Zebra3

vesp wrote:

A more correct few words you never said....

Didn't get a sarcasm detector for Christmas then? Britain "fighting for freedom" in Europe while trying to regain her evil empire in Africa and Asia. How decent of them. :rolleyes:

vesp wrote:

They knew there were camps but nobody was fully aware of the full horrors inside / the 6 million killed until after they were liberated. .

Why do you just quote the supposed number of Jewish deaths in the camps and not the claimed total of 11,000,000?

vesp wrote:

"racist attitudes of the time in Britain and the US" - you must be joking.

So racist attitudes and laws weren't in place in the U.S. and the British Empire at the time? You must be joking.....

vesp wrote:

The Jews wanted - probably rightfully - their own state and the US and Britain helped them. In fact to this day the Jewish states greatest two allies in the world are the US and Britain.

But why was this at the expense of the Palestinians? What right did Britain and America have to turn the British colony into a Jewish state? What right did the Jews have to demand it off them? Why not give them a piece of land in Europe from one of the losers?

vesp

Zebra3 wrote:

Britain "fighting for freedom" in Europe while trying to regain her evil empire in Africa and Asia. How decent of them.

Many British people, along with 120,000 people from Ireland, and numerous others from all around the world ( eg kiwis , Australians, Canadians , S. Africans ) helped "fight for freedom" as you put it, from the invading Nazis and Japanese. In the far east they were helped by many local volunteers there also. It was actually decent of them, as you so eloquently put it. But for them and their allies the horrors of German and Japanese concentration camps may have lasted to this day. It emerged after the war it was the German plan in the event of victory in Europe to use slave labour from these islands to build an autobahn to the far east ie useful extermination. Obviously you are so bigotted you prefer that empire to the "evil empire" Britain created after the war.

Zebra3 wrote:

Why do you just quote the supposed number of Jewish deaths in the camps and not the claimed total of 11,000,000?

The number is not the point ; I pointed out in previous posts that it was not just Jews who were exterminated but also a lesser number of gypsies, communists etc. Why go off on a tangent? Are you proud the Irish govt did nothing to help the Jewish refugees before, during or after the holocaust ? ( never mind help liberate the camps ). Dev. signed the book of condolences on the death of Hitler all right. Pity he was not as concerned for his victims.

Zebra3 wrote:

Why not give them a piece of land in Europe from one of the losers?

Where in ( relatively densly populated ) Europe would you have suggested ?

walrusgumble

yes i feel pretty weird out and a wee bit ashamed that dev signed a book on hitler's death. and yes hitler proposed to occupy/or at least invade britain via ireland (sligo, i think was planned entrance). i know you vesp you are not making he numbers an issue, incidently the russians had the biggest death rate (i am sure you know this)

vesp, i know it was someone else who referred to points you made a while ago, but is there any chance you could open a new thread solely on ww2 please. because, this thread is about irish issues, and maybe it will stop accusations of bigatory and a "i don't care about this or that" poping up.

i am sure one of the last fellows is not trying to be anti semetic, but considering his possible nationalist background, it could be appreciated on his views of the creation of isreal/land surrounding it at the expense of palestine.