Santa

DinoBot

Hi,

Do any of you guys celibrate christmas and if so to what degree ?

Do you have a tree up ?
Have santa for the kids ?

Im not christian so I started off never celibrating christmas, no tree, no presents etc. But with kids its not that simple so now I do have a tree, after all its pagan in origin :-)

But I still have no santa. I dont see the point in telling my kids there is no God but then saying some big fat guy leaves presents?

How do others deal with the whole santa issue ?

Zillah

When I have kids, I'm not going to tell them theres a Santa, I will tell them that their parents are going to give them a pressie for no reason other than we want to and that now its time for all of us to have great fun eating and drinking.

And it will be more magical than any fat man.

Zombrex

I didn't think Santa was a particularly religous thing? Its more of a kids thing.

I mean I'm an atheists through and through, but I wouldn't mind doing the toothfairy thing, or the Santa thing with my future kids. Its a bit of fun. I know sometimes a lot has been made out of the idea that your are lying to your kids, but tbh I can't remember ever as a child not knowing Santa was made up, but that didn't stop me enjoying it. I wasn't like "how dare you lie to me!"

delly

Ah here, the Christians may have the patent on St.Nicholas, but when it comes to the modern Santa I give the credit to Coca-Cola. From what I understand Santa wasn't a big deal back in the day before Coke made him into a big marketing tool, although I could be wrong on that one.

Anyway although having no relgious beliefs I still put up a tree and will make sure my kids get presents from Santa as well. Christmas is more commercial than religous these days so i'm happy with my setup.

Dades

I'm going to let my wife decide.

Personally I don't see the problem with Santa, except that you won't be able to pass a "grotto" without having to fork out €10 for a piece of tat!

Kids like magic stuff, like Santa, the tooth fairy and Halloween etc. You don't have to ditch all that because you're not a Christian. None of them are overtly religious and kids will shed belief in them without having to be told.

[edit I've overlapped other posts - MEH!]

bonkey

Zillah wrote:

When I have kids, I'm not going to tell them theres a Santa,

But will you tell them that there's no Santa, and that all their friends are being lied to by their respective parents?

And if you do, will you tell them to keep this a secret from the other kids, or let them quite happily say in class that "my mommy and daddy say that Santa doesn't exist and that its really our parents who put the presents under the tree"???

I will tell them that their parents are going to give them a pressie for no reason other than we want to and that now its time for all of us to have great fun eating and drinking.

And of course, your kids will have no problems at all understanding why all their friends get presents from both their parents and Santa, whereas they only get them from their parents.

And it will be more magical than any fat man.

I hope for your own sake and that of your kids that you're right.

Static M.e.

Not a regular poster to this part of the forum at all, I came in through the home page, so I probably shouldn't post really but Im going to anyway Apologies I get this arse ways

First off Christain by birth but I dont practice at all, I go to mass every Christmas day though to keep my parents happy. They know I couldn't care less but its Tradition and I see no reason to upset/iritate them besides which I respect that they beleive so I like to keep them happy. Now back to Santa.

Why no Santa? if its the religion piece could you not take the religion out of it and tell them the Old Nick story. Guy in mountains makes toys for the village children and dilivers them every Christmas eve to the orphanage because the children cant afford presents.. something like that..

This is not a dig at you. But do you have no tooth fairy, easter bunny, Man in the moon, Superman? etc

I have wonderfull memories of being a child and waiting for Santa to arrive, the excitment and awe of it all. One year I couldnt sleep and went into a panic and my dad had to come up and calm me, because if you weren't asleep when Santa arrived you would get no presents !!! :eek:

I honestly couldn't think of Christmas without Santa, he is the linchpin that holds it all togther, its all about Santa!

I dont plan on telling you what to do or anything but if it was me I would lie through my teeth and make them beleive in Santa. Screw the whole God/Religion aspect of it. Seeing childrens faces get so excited about Santa, Christmas eve and then coming down on Christmas day is worth it. Not to mention all the talk they do before hand about Christmas with their parents, School friends and relations.

If you start the tradition in your own house, I gauantee you wont regret it in the years to come.

I probably wont find this thread again so look either way, have a happy Christmas.

DinoBot

bonkey wrote:

But will you tell them that there's no Santa, and that all their friends are being lied to by their respective parents?

Well I do have kids and have never had Santa for them. From the very beginning I told them it was their parents who gave presents. Now dont get me wrong, they got as much as they would if they had santa and to be honest the look on their faces when they got up in the morning was just the same as my memory of christmas day. I just didnt see how I could say there was no god but there was a santa.

I think it is a religious thing however. Ask Santa for gifts (ask God), be good because santa is watching (be good because God sees all). Too similar for my liking. Thats why muslims kids dont have Santa, as with other non christian faiths. Like it or not it is a christian thing.

But to be honest as I got older I got more tolerant and the religion bit doesnt bother me as much, but my kids are much older now as well

Beruthiel

DinoBot wrote:

But I still have no santa. I dont see the point in telling my kids there is no God but then saying some big fat guy leaves presents?

I never taught my daughter anything about god or religion. But I sure as hell gave her a great christmas.
I remember the joy and excitement I had as a kid on christmas eve, it had nothing to do with religion for me at the time, I would never have seen Santa as a religious thing. I wouldn't have her miss that for the world just because I have no interest in religion.
You get to be a kid for a very short time these days. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of magic in their lives, it doesn't last long and it will do no harm. I expect life would be difficult for any kid who doesn't believe in Santa. If nothing else, friends and school must cause problems.

I continue to put a tree up and have prezzies underneath, that's just I'm still a big kid and love the time off, eating, drinking, hanging out with mates and family. It's all good.

Dades

Static M.e. wrote:

I probably wont find this thread again so look either way, have a happy Christmas.

And thanks for dropping by. Hope you do again.

DinoBot wrote:

I think it is a religious thing however. Ask Santa for gifts (ask God), be good because santa is watching (be good because God sees all). Too similar for my liking. Thats why muslims kids dont have Santa, as with other non christian faiths. Like it or not it is a christian thing.

There are definite uncomfortable similarities between Santa and the Christian God - but IMO these should be uncomfortable for Christians rather than kids. Every kid eventually cops on that there is no Santa - whether you tell them or not. And the only residual memories you are left with are (for the most part) happy ones. Its not as if your teaching them later in life to believe in things that don't exist.

SonOfPerdition

DinoBot wrote:

Hi,

Do any of you guys celibrate christmas and if so to what degree ?

yeah, i sure do . . to excess!!!

Do you have a tree up ?

Generally yes, but not this year. The reasons for having a tree or not having one has nothing to do with my atheism. It's more a practical decision this year as we're in middle of some work in the house in preparation for selling it.

Have santa for the kids ?

God is punishing me by not allowing me to have kids. But i certainly treat my nephews and nieces to loads of pressies and love the expression on their faces when i ask them about santa.
You'd have to be a terrible killjoy to take that away from kids. Santa is harmless fun and has no bearing on atheism or agnosticism. Anyone that refuses to allow their kids this little bit of magic in the intial years of their lives is losing the run of themselves .. imo.

Suff

I'm a Muslim so I don't celebrate Christmas in a religious way anyway.
however I do like the tree and the presents and generally the nice ambiance.

Funny there's a thread on this cos I was chatting with a friend last night and we did a little research online about it....here are the findings:

Christmas has nothing to do with Christ, its a pagan "Dies Natalis Solis Invicti" which means the birthday of the unconquered sun this is celecrated on the 25th December. no body knows exactly when it was associated with Christ but they say the first how did was a Christian traveller and historian of the 3rd century called Sextus Julius Africanus.

And in Roman times, the most well known winter festival was called Saturnalia, which was popular in the region that is today modern Italy it was ment to honore the god Saturn and began on December 17 until 24th
Now regarding the "Christmas Tree" well its often explained as a Christianization of the ancient pagan idea that the evergreen tree represents a celebration of the renewal of life. when roman pagans converted to christanity they kept some of their pagan heritage. but the tree that we know now was traced back to the 16th century in Lativa where they claim that they had the first ever Christmas tree (1510). while in 1570 in Germany it was reported after much research that a small fir was decorated with apples, nuts, dates, pretzels and paper flowers, and erected in the guild-house, for the benefit of the guild members' children, who collected the dainties on Christmas day, Another early reference is from Basel, where the tailor apprentices carried around town a tree decorated with apples and cheese in 1597.

Now Santa!
Santa Claus originated as a mispronunciation of Dutch Sinterklaas He is a variation of a Dutch folk tale based on the historical figure Saint Nicholas, a bishop from Myra in Asia Minor (the greater part of modern-day Turkey), who used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. he inspired major celebrations in the Netherlands, Belgium and in Germany where his believed date of death is December 6 this is celebrated the evening before on December 5, which in turn inspired both the myth and the name of Santa Claus.

so if we look at it from a historical point its a pagan festival so its strange to me to see people really believing its Christ's actual Birth date
saying all that...
its a time when people try to bring out the best in them and try to be nice to everyone and all..so its nice from that point. kids love santa, adults love the chance to relax and use any excuse to eat nice food and drink with friends. so its nice and I think we need it.
As a good friend of mine once said to me..."Christmas is the only thing that brightens Winter so thank God for it!"

aidan24326

Zillah wrote:

When I have kids, I'm not going to tell them theres a Santa, I will tell them that their parents are going to give them a pressie for no reason other than we want to and that now its time for all of us to have great fun eating and drinking.And it will be more magical than any fat man.

Zillah, have you really thought this through?

If you don't tell your kids about Santa, they will obviously learn of it from school and their friends. What then? Do you tell them no no, that Santa stuff is all made up nonsense. Next day in school - 'My daddy says there's no Santa and it's all just lies'. Would you want to spoil the magic for all the other kids aswell? See it's a tricky one.

I grew up with the whole magic of Santa (as I'm sure you did) and it didn't stop you or I becoming the atheists we are now. Give your kids some credit, that they too will shake off that superstitious stuff when they're a little older just like you did. Educate them in the right way in every other facet of life, and I don't think good ol' Santa will cause too many problems.

Though I must add that there's no need to be stretching this to tooth fairies. They are far less ubiquitous in childhood than Santa is. I would have no problem telling my child there's no such thing as a tooth fairy, as it's not the same part of growing up that Santa is.

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

There are definite uncomfortable similarities between Santa and the Christian God - but IMO these should be uncomfortable for Christians rather than kids. Every kid eventually cops on that there is no Santa - whether you tell them or not. And the only residual memories you are left with are (for the most part) happy ones. Its not as if your teaching them later in life to believe in things that don't exist.

I think that's a good point. It's an introduction (for the smarter child, anyway) to working out that just because things are nice doesn't mean they're real. Anyway, did nobody else make Santa traps and expect to catch their father?

I'm pretty certain my daughter will be introduced to Santa next year. I may initially resist telling her it's Santa, but the presents will certainly mysteriously appear overnight.

cordially,
Scofflaw

aidan24326

Good Post Suff.

That's interesting.

Asiaprod

Santa and the tooth fairy are both alive and well in my house.
<wonder what he will bring me this year>

Freddie59

DinoBot wrote:

Well I do have kids and have never had Santa for them. From the very beginning I told them it was their parents who gave presents. Now dont get me wrong, they got as much as they would if they had santa and to be honest the look on their faces when they got up in the morning was just the same as my memory of christmas day. I just didnt see how I could say there was no god but there was a santa.

I think it is a religious thing however. Ask Santa for gifts (ask God), be good because santa is watching (be good because God sees all). Too similar for my liking. Thats why muslims kids dont have Santa, as with other non christian faiths. Like it or not it is a christian thing.

But to be honest as I got older I got more tolerant and the religion bit doesnt bother me as much, but my kids are much older now as well

Like the previous poster I came in through the Home page. It is your right to inform your children as you see fit, but I hope you've told them to keep the lid on it for the sake of other children - ones who believe in, and derive tremendous enjoyment from, Santa. There's always some tosspot kid who proceeds to lecture others that 'there's no Santa, Blah Blah Blah'. And they're getting younger every year.

As a practising (in as much as I can) Catholic I would like to take this opportunity to wish believers and non-believers alike a Happy, Holy, and peaceful Christmas. Have a good one.:)

Suff

I think we need Christmas, Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Alice in Wounderland, Lord Of the Rings, The HogFather and my Fav The Wheel Of Time (I am The Dragon!)

Without fantasy we are boaring!

bonkey

Beruthiel wrote:

would never have seen Santa as a religious thing.

Indeed, I recall my mother many-a-time telling us to remember what Christmas was really about, and that it wasn't about holidays, santa, presents and so on.

Suff wrote:

Now Santa!
Santa Claus originated as a mispronunciation of Dutch Sinterklaas He is a variation of a Dutch folk tale based on the historical figure Saint Nicholas, a bishop from Myra in Asia Minor (the greater part of modern-day Turkey), who used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. he inspired major celebrations in the Netherlands, Belgium and in Germany where his believed date of death is December 6 this is celebrated the evening before on December 5, which in turn inspired both the myth and the name of Santa Claus.

Indeed. Here in Swissland, its the same. "Santa" comes on the 6th and brings the type of goodies more in line with the "dainties" you mention.

Oh...except in the town of Biel (Bienne), where its not celebrated on the 6th, but rather a week later. Thats cause the town burned down one December 6th, so they moved the festival in subsequent years.

But yeah - there's a lot of borrowed stuff there. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.....and people thought it was a just Microsoft strategy....

Scofflaw

bonkey wrote:

But yeah - there's a lot of borrowed stuff there. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.....and people thought it was a just Microsoft strategy....

Nah. Microsoft never did anything original...

cordially,
Scofflaw

pinksoir

it seems a bit mad to me to deny everything related to christianity just because one is non-christian or especially atheist. i mean, kids definitely benefit from fairytales and such. they are full of rich imagery and architypal images that help kid's minds develop.

and what's wrong with a christmas fairytale that promotes giving and caring. i mean, one could argue that cutting out the middleman (santa claus) would be just as effective, but kids respond better to such ideas if they have to use their imagination.

whilst being atheist myself, i still enjoy all the things that christmas has to offer. religion itself has lost its use, but there are still good aspects of it. for example, christianity brought about some of the greatest music ever written. denying oneself everthing that religions have to offer on the grounds of being atheist can result in serious missing out. principles needn't be all exclusive.

Dades

Freddie59 wrote:

As a practising (in as much as I can) Catholic I would like to take this opportunity to wish believers and non-believers alike a Happy, Holy, and peaceful Christmas. Have a good one.:)

Right back at you!

Oh, and welcome back Suff, it's been a while.

SonOfPerdition

Scofflaw wrote:

Nah. Microsoft never did anything original...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Plagiarism saves time!

Dave!

Santa has nothing to do with religion, so if your problem is teaching your kids about religious figures, then it's not a problem. Santa is not to be worshipped, the only thing that he requires is that you be good.

If you're protesting Santa because you don't agree with teaching kids about fictional characters such as god, then that's a different thing. I can understand your concern to a degree, but I think you shouldn't worry about it at all. 100% of kids stop believing in Santa, most before they're 10 I'd say. Belief in Santa does not affect them in any way at all.

I think you've given it too much thought to be quite honest.

I think it's also important to note that Christmas has transcended any religious significance, at least in modern Irish society. The church is no longer powerful here, and the majority of Irish people do not spend more than 5 minutes thinking about Jesus on his birthday.

Just think of it as a family holiday, where you can have some fun with your kids, make people feel good by giving them gifts, have a few scoops, play some cards, and have a laugh with friends and family.

That's all I do anyway...

And yes, I'll be telling my kids about Santa, having them leave out Guiness and cake for him, and then eating/drinking it myself

Rev Hellfire

DaveMcG wrote:

having them leave out Guiness and cake for him, and then eating/drinking it myself

tut tut, it'll be a bag of coal for you stealing santa's loot.

Dave!

Well I'll steer clear of the carrots for the reindeer! It's only fair!

easyontheeye

To all the stiff atheists who plan on ruining xmas for their kids , just play the game for the kids sake!
Dont take it away from them and exclude them from the same feelings as other kids at xmas. And what if your kid is the one kid in class going around telling all the other kids theres no Santa because "my mammy and daddy says so"

Suff

The Atheist wrote:

Oh, and welcome back Suff, it's been a while.

Thanks, I was home in Damascus for good while, I did roam the boards while I was away but couldn't get the time to follow up on any thread...I was busy having fun! :P

back on topic,...

Most people do state that Christmas lost the religious feel it used to have 20 odd years ago, now its %100 commercial.
also Santa used to be green! Coca Cola got him into Red...looks better I must say.

One when I find my soul mate and she agree to marry me (let's Hope!) and if I do have kids (let's hope for that also!) I will introduce santa to them, sure why not

Zillah

bonkey wrote:

But will you tell them that there's no Santa, and that all their friends are being lied to by their respective parents?

And if you do, will you tell them to keep this a secret from the other kids, or let them quite happily say in class that "my mommy and daddy say that Santa doesn't exist and that its really our parents who put the presents under the tree"???

Little Timmy, people like to believe all sorts of silly things. Some believe in God, some believe in fairies, some believe in Santa Claus. None of these things are real. We can have lots and lots of fun without that sort of silliness. Of course, other people do believe it so you might want to be careful telling that to other people. People can be very weird about believing in such things, so you probably wouldn't want to argue it with them. Here, have a Playstation 4.

And of course, your kids will have no problems at all understanding why all their friends get presents from both their parents and Santa, whereas they only get them from their parents.

Uh, maybe your house is weird, or maybe mine is, but we always got one present from Santa, that was it, no doubling up. Either way, I'd probably spoil my children to hell and back knowing me.

aidan24326 wrote:

Zillah, have you really thought this through?

If you don't tell your kids about Santa, they will obviously learn of it from school and their friends. What then? Do you tell them no no, that Santa stuff is all made up nonsense. Next day in school - 'My daddy says there's no Santa and it's all just lies'. Would you want to spoil the magic for all the other kids aswell? See it's a tricky one.

If my children feel the need to discuss other children's silliness with them thats fine. I don't care if they make all the other children cry. I really really don't. As long as they have a great time at Christmas thats all I care about. And frankly which part do you think is it that makes Children love Christmas, the fat man or that fact that the fat man brings them super special presents?

Though I must add that there's no need to be stretching this to tooth fairies. They are far less ubiquitous in childhood than Santa is. I would have no problem telling my child there's no such thing as a tooth fairy, as it's not the same part of growing up that Santa is.

Who the hell are you to criticise me for not indulging in Santa and then having the audacity to claim that ruining things like the tooth fairy are fine? What about all those kids that think a fairy brings them money when they lose a tooth? What about when he goes into school tomorrow and ruins it for all of them? Thats really quite hypocritical.

easyontheeye

i can't believe you would deny your children Santa, Zillah! they are to young to understand your belief system.

thats just child abuse!


If my children feel the need to discuss other children's silliness with them thats fine. I don't care if they make all the other children cry. I really really don't. As long as they have a great time at Christmas thats all I care about.

Abit of a contradiction calling it christmas, as it wont be christmas in your house Zillah

And frankly which part do you think is it that makes Children love Christmas, the fat man or that fact that the fat man brings them super special presents?

Both, they come hand in hand!

DinoBot

Scofflaw wrote:

I may initially resist telling her it's Santa, but the presents will certainly mysteriously appear overnight.

Yes, we sort of do a similar thing. The presents "appear" under the tree the next morning. We always played it like "we didnt do that, where did they come from". But if they asked when the dust settled, of course they were told it was from us.

Still kept it quite magic I feel. I dont think they missed out.