Fundamentally the Luas system is unextendable

pjbrady1

I frequently travel on the Luas to Sandyford. I travelled on it originally in summer 2004, recently I returned to travelling on it from Dundrum/Ballaly into Harcourt (return journeys Monday to Friday and the odd weekend journey).
The % of passengers that have to stand is now far greater than in 2004, the % of Luas that have at least 40+ passengers standing is now far greater, finally the % of Luas that have at some stage during their journey no possibility for a passenger to board the Luas has increased (Windy Arbour especially).
Currently in Dundrum/Balally/Sandyford there are alot of high rise apartments being constructed. These are all easily walkable to the Luas, I'm coming from Rathfarnham and I know other people who come down from Rathfarnham to Dundrum Ballally.
When residents move into the apartments in Dundrum/Balally in 2007/2008 then the LUAS will be almost completly full Monday to Friday from 7:30 to 7:30.
Sandyford/Stillorgan/Kilmacud has the potential to fill the LUAS completely if more apartments and residents move in to that area.
My point is that the frequency or size of LUAS' will not be able to keep pace with the commuting population in the Rathfarnham/Balally/Dundrum/Sandyford area.
Likewise I can't imagine the Tallaght line is extendable, given that hundreds of apartments are being finished every year along its current length.
If the Sandyford LUAS gets extended there will be no passengers getting on after Balally all day!

popebenny16

I fear that you may be right, but LUAS is not the only solution, it is a part of the solution. More QBC's, perhaps a congestion charge within the city centre, perhaps a change in tax and planning to attract offices out of the city centre all help.

El Stuntman

aren't we getting longer Luas carriages soon?

seamus

Longer carriages and more frequent services are still available for the Sandyford line. I'm not sure about the Tallaght line, but certainly more frequent services are available.

Unlike Dublin Bus, there's not a whole pile of resistance to making the LUAS a better service.

El Stuntman

seamus wrote:

Unlike Dublin Bus, there's not a whole pile of resistance to making the LUAS a better service.

spot on

institutionalised inertia is a nasty thing

pjbrady1

I think that the turn near Harcourt Station puts a certain limit on the length of a LUAS on the Sandyford line. (There are a few sharp left right turns near there.)
As regards frequency, currently the LUAS is running very frequently (gets down to 4 minutes in the morning- sometimes there is the odd LUAS every two minutes but I think that is only after a delay).
It would not be unreasonable to assume a further 5,000 housing units finished in the Dundrum/Balally/Kilmacud/Stillorgan/Sandyford region over the next two years. Dundrumpoint alone has 524 apartments and comes on stream in 2008. Including Dundrumpoint there is at least 1000 units under construction near to Dundrum/Balally. A large % of residents will be working people who need to get to the city centre.
The southside is starting to become more popular with renters as well. For cheaper money than the city centre you can get a far nicer, larger apartment.
I think one solution would be to increase the frequency of buses serving the area.

Zoney

It's a tram system. If you've been to a functional city, you'll know that trams rank only one step above buses in the grand scheme of things. It's all very well clapping ourselves on the back about finally having the Luas, but the fact is that other cities have some transport corridors that are served by buses, trams, underground *and* heavy rail (and not DART but fast services - i.e. Schnellbahn).

Sure Dublin is too spread out for such an intensive implementation of an integrated transport system; but we sure will have to start soon. Luas is a beginning, but all those who qualm at "why do we need Metro when we have buses, Luas, DART" are underestimating the potential for public transport, and how intensive development will stretch even the highest capacity services to the limit! Build it and they will come? Well, with a lot of these developments (think Ashtown) they are already here and we haven't built it yet (the transport services; a measly commuter station or two on an intercity rail line, and a relatively tame bus service does not cut the mustard)!

OK we don't want to be like heavily indebted countries that spend billions on public transport to try to get investment - but we desperately need to do that now to ensure continuing investment - the investment we have already is giving us a window where we can afford to build for the future *without even borrowing*. As for road building... get real - sure we need to finish the motorway network and fix up our miserable country roads - but there is no way you can sustain the amount of roadbuilding Dublin would need to continue the car-dependant society.

antoinolachtnai

It's a tram! it runs on rails so the back wheels don't swing out the way a long bus does!

It can be any length you want. The constraint on length is the length of platforms and the amount of disruption caused to traffic.

The problem with upgrading the green line is the leg between charlemont and st. stephen's green for this reason.

Obvious solution: join the metro line to the luas line at ranelagh (edit: underground). Run metro services between shanganagh and swords serving O'Connell St, and run luas services between ballally and the Docklands via the BX line, serving Merrion Square/Pearse St.

Red Alert

i still view the metro as unneeded. heavy rail and luas carriages are the way to go. the metro carriages can't be operated on-street as such and metro expansion of the green line is going to cause real havoc.

godtabh

seamus wrote:

Longer carriages and more frequent services are still available for the Sandyford line. I'm not sure about the Tallaght line, but certainly more frequent services are available.

Unlike Dublin Bus, there's not a whole pile of resistance to making the LUAS a better service.

Surely if they extend the Sandyford line they would do the same for the Tallaght line ie more trams and longer ones? I dont have figuers and only limited use but I'd say both lines are at capacity.

It always amazed me that the Tallaght line had shorter carrages. I never knew why

ardmacha

Antoinolachtnai stated it clearly. 90% of the Sandyford line is reserved track, so there can be more carriages on each service (with longer platforms) and you can have any frequency you want. The 10% of the line on the street is limiting the capacity of the other 90%. The Sandyford line needs to be linked to the metro and as antoinolachtnai says you could still have some Luas type services starting in Dundrum or wherever which would carry on along the onstreet section. However the big volume of people would be on longer trains from Shankhill that carry on into the metro, these mightn't stop at all the stops between Dundrum and Ranelagh.

Yes there might be disruption. But the reserved track can be a higher volume service that the on street service and we have to take advantage of this.

AlekSmart

As the current situation in the Sandyford Industrial Estate shows,there is NO plan.

When one reads of the suspension of standing orders at a Local Authority meeting in order to allow councillors discuss the shambles which is rapidly developing under their noses then we know that all is lost.

This lack of planning is visible throughout the State but particularly in the Dublin region.
The stunning aspect is that in the short to medium term this situation will not be addressed.
In fact we now know its Government Policy to leave well enough alone.

Minister Martin Cullen`s emphatic rejection of the Dublin Transportation Authority Establishment Team`s recommendation regarding its future role in the planning process gave notice that as far as the present "Crazy Gang" of politicians is concerned all is hunky dory.

It worth remembering that the legacy of CJ Haughey is a Political Party which is largely indivisible from the Property Developing and Land Acciquisition business and that a virtual generation of that partys senior figures learnt their craft at the great man`s feet.

To many of these figures their work is not yet complete !!! :eek:

steve-o

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Obvious solution: join the metro line to the luas line at ranelagh.

If on-street Luas was to remain connected to the Metro line after completion, I'm not sure where there is space along the line to allow the tracks to merge. But even more difficult, I wonder how can joining Luas to Metro be achieved without closing Luas for a lengthy period? At a guess, during construction you would need a trench a couple of hundred metres long at the point where the tunnel surfaces.

antoinolachtnai

My suggestion would be that the lines would separate around the bridge over ranelagh village. the ramp downwards would run through the park ('Ranelagh Gardens' I think it's called) and towards Northbrook Avenue. A row of modern houses would need to be removed at this point. The houses could be replaced with higher-density housing afterwards, so the net property cost would not actually be that high.

There are probably other ways that could be considered to do it, but this looks to me to be the one that would cause least disruption.

I think it would be possible to keep most or all Luas services running while this would be going on, or at least until the final stages when the connection was actually made.

By doing this link-up, you would avoid having to build such a big station at St. Stephen's Green, since it would no longer be the only interchange station between Luas and Metro services. Also, you might be able to avoid major disruption of St. Stephen's Green, if that were a consideration.

Red Alert

Dual-use lines would be a reciepe for disaster and confusion. The profile of a tram is bit different to that of a metro train, not to mention a lot of other issues with the power supply and AVLS system.

jimmycrackcorm

double decker trams anyone?

Metrobest

antoinolachtnai wrote:

My suggestion would be that the lines would separate around the bridge over ranelagh village. the ramp downwards would run through the park ('Ranelagh Gardens' I think it's called) and towards Northbrook Avenue. A row of modern houses would need to be removed at this point. The houses could be replaced with higher-density housing afterwards, so the net property cost would not actually be that high.

There are probably other ways that could be considered to do it, but this looks to me to be the one that would cause least disruption.

I think it would be possible to keep most or all Luas services running while this would be going on, or at least until the final stages when the connection was actually made.

By doing this link-up, you would avoid having to build such a big station at St. Stephen's Green, since it would no longer be the only interchange station between Luas and Metro services. Also, you might be able to avoid major disruption of St. Stephen's Green, if that were a consideration.

The RPA has said that the nearest point to the city where you could have a tunnel portal would be south of Beechwood - most likely adjacent to Milltown.

Such is the initial cost of Metro North (extra stops, longer trains, mined stations), it's unlikely that it will be extended in phase 1. However, with the plan being to leave the TBM in the ground, once the metro is operational and its benefits clear for all to see, there will be an impetus to extend the system. That's what has happened with luas and history will repeat with metro.

My preference would be to see it extended to Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure and onwards to connect with Metro West at Tallaght.

wwhyte

Red Alert wrote:

Dual-use lines would be a reciepe for disaster and confusion. The profile of a tram is bit different to that of a metro train, not to mention a lot of other issues with the power supply and AVLS system.

I'd say just abandon the surface lines from Harcourt St to Stephen's Green. If the metro's going to be running at the same frequency and stopping at the same stops, why not?

antoinolachtnai

Re metrobest's comment: It's not just about doing it all at once.

The issue is that unless you plan the system at the beginning, before you start digging, it is more difficult than it needs to be to do retrofits, and if you do succeed, you will end up making parts of the infrastructure redundant when you expand.

If you are planning for a system where metro and luas join into one, the stations along the route are going to have different metrics compared to a system where they are going to be separate. (They will need to be smaller, generally speaking.) Obviously, the rolling stock and things like platform gauges need to be considered too.

Also, if you are going to join the systems into one, it makes no sense to run BX along an alignment close to the metro plan. Otherwise you have needless duplication.

My understanding that Metro and Luas can be fitted together. You get rolling stock that runs on the same voltage. You get metro carriages which fit aorund the profile of the Luas platforms.

It does take a lot of planning. But you can't expect to be able to economically retrofit this stuff if you haven't thought it out at the beginning.

GerardKeating

kearnsr wrote:

It always amazed me that the Tallaght line had shorter carrages. I never knew why

The Tallaght trams were order first, and the longer sections were not available at that time.

They were when they ordered the units for the other line. They are now ordering the extra sections for the tallaght line and i think they will be here in 2008.

Now as to why they did not order them when they ordered the other trams, there you got me.

Victor

kearnsr wrote:

It always amazed me that the Tallaght line had shorter carrages. I never knew why

Note that Line A has 26 trams against Line B's 14.

Red Alert

Yes the platform length issue is there alright, but there is no reason theoretically why even the green line trams couldn't have a second 'middle bit' put into them.

Capt'n Midnight

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

double decker trams anyone?

Can you honestly imagine a double decker tramway ever being extended as far as Howth, or Leixlip or Poulaphouca.(Blessington) :rolleyes:

dowlingm

red alert
the trams could be extended to 50m (Citadis max) but a couple of points:

1. All platforms would have to be extended. Is there space at all stops to do that?
2. Longer trams consume more power - how much of the LUAS network can handle the requirement of a 50m tram?

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

1. All platforms would have to be extended. Is there space at all stops to do that?

Most. I imagine Busarararars and Harcourt may be tight, being island platforms and I think its the new Georges Dock stop would be physically constrained from going beyond 50m

2. Longer trams consume more power - how much of the LUAS network can handle the requirement of a 50m tram?

At the moment there is enough power for the existing trams to go to 3 minute frequency. This would, in theory have the same requirement as 30m trams at 5 minute intervals. After this one needs to add more power connections, adding a transformer station (you need a site, even if underground) and splittign a circuit in two.

In practice, I've seen one tram behind another at stops.

MarkoP11

There is a cover story which the RPA sell about why the Red line has the short 30m trams that at order time a 40m option was not available.

Thats actually untrue

Orignally the order was 20 30m trams for Line A Tallaght - Middle Abbey Street, later Line C was added to reach Connolly and as a result 6 more trams where added those 6 where ordered as part of the same order as the 14 40m trams for the Green Line (Line

Thus 6 of the Red Line trams could have been 40m long as the option did exist when the contract was signed since the other 14 on the same order where 40m

All trams where delivered as 30m units, the builders plate shows that since its a Citadis 300 the 10m sections where added in Dublin

The Green Line has acquired a Red Line tram to increase capacity to cope with the 4 minute frequency. The Red Line carries more people per day than the Green Line and has done so for over a year, despite it being 'nonsense' the 10m sections are on order for the Red Line of course given the massive increase in capacity in rail services in Heuston proposed for the next 3 years the capacity is already gone

GerardKeating

dowlingm wrote:

red alert
the trams could be extended to 50m (Citadis max) but a couple of points:

1. All platforms would have to be extended. Is there space at all stops to do that?
2. Longer trams consume more power - how much of the LUAS network can handle the requirement of a 50m tram?

Acording to the RPA site "These platforms are 50 metres long"

Victor

GerardKeating wrote:

Acording to the RPA site "These platforms are 50 metres long"

That includes the 5m ramps on either end, where you can't load passengers.

Well you could, but it would be a safety risk as they would need to step up into the tram. Eventually you would have someone fall because the step isn't meant to be there. The RPA would be held negligent.

MarkoP11

Only 40m of the platform is usable

The AVLS transponders woudl have to be moved if you wanted to fit 50m into the platforms

Note despite the talk none of the plans submitted to the various public inquires show any design or provision for later upgrade to 50m. Indeed on mainland Europe at major stops it is not uncommon to have a double length platform so two trams can stop

Chris_533976

Solution to all the problems. Stop a bit longer at a station.

This stopgap measure would let everyone in, say the first 20m of a carriage off, those doors would close, the tram would move a bit forward and the remaining 20m of tram could empty. Might take a few seconds longer, but would mean you could have longer trams without upgrading platforms.

Pet

Or just block the doors that go past the platforms from opening?

Ste.phen

Sounds like the easiest method alright, make the very front and back doors 'emergency only' doors, they're smaller than the other sets of doors anyways, IIRC, so not as useful

dowlingm

Post interconnector there's a case for saying LUAS-C demand beyond Heuston should decline somewhat with passengers for the Point/IFSC/Bray/Airport Metro/Luas Green using interconnector. The question is will demand from Tallaght simply replace it 1 for 1. What about Lucan LUAS - will that help or hurt?

For Maynooth line traffic I'd love to see a 90 style route connecting Heuston with Ashtown or Broombridge and make room for people in the inner city to get on the DART into east/south Dublin rather than having those people connect at Connolly and head back on LUAS C.

MrPudding

This happens on some stops on the london undergtound.

MrP