Would you knowingly buy from israel?

imeddyhobbs

I was picking up a few pieces in Liffey valley SC on friday last when a woman from one of the kiosks called me over,i would normally avoid all unsolicited sales pitches but she caught my eye and i was the olny person within a 2mtr radius so she hooked me.
Anyway she did her sales thing and asked me to pull up my sleeves and try this hand cleaner,i did as i was asked.Then she dried my hands and gave me some moisturiser which i also used;just then some woman came up and distracted my harassor about these products so i was left standing there and wondering what to do and thinking that maybe i should buy something so i started looking for the cheapest thing on the shelf and then and only then i noticed that all the products were made in Israel:eek: so then she came back to me and i told her that i was going to buy something from her until i noticed that they were made in Israel and that i would not knowingly buy anything from Israel .Thats when her sweet little old innocent me attitude changed and she started telling me that i know nothing about what happens out there and that i should try living in Israel before i make any decisions,i said it would be more of a challange to live in palistine then she again told me i knew nothing about it.
As i was walking away she said to me that "you now have soft hands because of Israel" i replyed "i have soft hands because of the dead sea"

That is 80% of the conversation we had,i left out nothing significant

I want to know what you think of this encounter.
I belive that israel is a terrorist state.
I will not knowingly buy anything from Israel
What do you think of her attitude.
Would you knowingly buy from Israel?

silverharp

I doubt if Israel cares much for your gesture so to that extent it is meaningless.

SeanW

Did she have a foreign/Israeli accent? That would explain some of it. Because except for some kind of strong personal political feelings or connections to Israel, I don't know what she expected to accomplish with that "you don't know what it's like" speech. At least you CAN boycott Israeli products, in the U.S. there are anti-boycott laws that make it a crime to participate in foreign-led un-government-authorised boycotts, and these cover boycotts of Israeli products because that is lead by the Arab Leauge.

As for me, I hold both Israel and its enemies equally responsible for the carnage, I would never knowingly buy anything from Israel but would never knowingly buy anything from Syria or Iran or anything linked to Hamas either. I also believe that Western society should make the end of dependence on Saudi oil priority number 1, because SA is one of the most barbarian states on Earth. My refusal to knowingly buy certain Middle Eastern goods will continue until they all just sit the f*ck down and get this crap sorted out for the benefit of themselves and all mankind, but I don't think that will happen in my lifetime if ever.

sovtek

I avoid anything labelled Israel. I noticed during Israel's attack on Lebanon how Marks and Sparks gave certain vegetables a generic label like "Middle East" or something like that.
I can't believe they even try to sell that **** here.
I remember living in SA and some people tried that "you weren't there" argument on me.

sovtek

SeanW wrote:

At least you CAN boycott Israeli products, in the U.S. there are anti-boycott laws that make it a crime to participate in foreign-led un-government-authorised boycotts, and these cover boycotts of Israeli products because that is lead by the Arab Leauge.

I'm not aware of this law. I know there are boycotts going on all over the US against Israel, particularly last summer when they were attacking Lebanon.

As for me, I hold both Israel and its enemies equally responsible for the carnage, I would never knowingly buy anything from Israel but would never knowingly buy anything from Syria or Iran or anything linked to Hamas either. That will continue until they all just sit the f*ck down and get this crap sorted out for the benefit of themselves and all mankind, but I don't think that will happen in my lifetime if ever.

Would you buy anything from the US then?
I'm not aware of Hamas' export market.

sovtek

silverharp wrote:

I doubt if Israel cares much for your gesture so to that extent it is meaningless.

I guess that's why the woman got so defensive.

kmick

Whatever about the politics of the region and who is right or wrong none of the people in any of those places Syria, Palestine, Israel, Iran have a safe, happy life. If you talk to any of them they are full of hate for each other. Hate is a very poor way to live your life and I feel sorry for them all. The old Arab saying 'With my cousin against the foreigner, with my brother against my cousin' is their way of life. I once worked with a Damascan and he said no one in the middle east will be happy until the Israelis are driven into the sea. He was a moderate and fully Westernised. On the other side I saw an TV article about kids in the Israeli bunkers when the missiles were raining down from Hamas during the war. They expressed the view that they would like to see all Syrians dead. They were about 7 or 8. Intractable with a capital I. I think if you make an effort to avoid Israeli goods you should also try and avoid Syrian, Iranian, Palestinian et al as well. Lets not discriminate against the biggest pack of failed countries the world has ever seen.

Yes.

And if I could be assured that some of the monies would go towards defending innocent Israeli civilians from terrorists, I would buy ten of whatever was going.

Rabies

I wouldn't be too bothered to be honest. Its not as if you were buying weapons or human trafficing people.
It was hand cleaner. Not the end of the world.

If some product was made in North Korea that i liked and if it was available here, I would buy it.

Not a huge issue in my opinion.

I know at some stage along the line the government of whatever country is getting it's money through taxes and whatever else, and can still buy weapons.
I'm after a product, so I will get it.

Dr_Teeth

In general I'd avoid boycotts of products from a country just because I don't agree with the decisions of its government. For example, I'm not a fan of US government policies but I know that opinion over there is very divided so it's not fair to tar all US *people* with the same brush and boycott their produce.

However, I do personally boycott Israeli products. The bombing of Lebanon had something like a 90% approval rating amongst Israeli people, with most of them saying they weren't bombing enough, and that was something I completely disagreed with.

Judt

Boycott Israeli products and you should boycott the products of the nations which support it. That leaves you with bread and bottled water - who knows where that fluoride comes from - and you couldn't even drink Guinness, being owned by a foreign company which pays some of its profits in tax to the supporters of Israel. I'm not making a political point one way or another (the Israel - Palestine debate can be done to death, literally); just saying that if you want to boycott Israeli products then it doesn't make sense, given Israel's special position in the world, not to boycott the products of its bankrollers.

Does the moral indignation in the room stretch to giving up most booze, fast food and sweets?

silverharp

Judt wrote:

Does the moral indignation in the room stretch to giving up most booze, fast food and sweets?

Add oil and oil derived products as a % ends up in the hands of terrorists in the middle east and elsewhere

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

Yes.

And if I could be assured that some of the monies would go towards defending innocent Israeli civilians from terrorists, I would buy ten of whatever was going.

In reality its more than likely going to someone who is using Palestinian virtual slave labour to make it...so...

sovtek

Rabies wrote:

I wouldn't be too bothered to be honest. Its not as if you were buying weapons or human trafficing people.
It was hand cleaner. Not the end of the world.

If some product was made in North Korea that i liked and if it was available here, I would buy it.

Not a huge issue in my opinion.

I know at some stage along the line the government of whatever country is getting it's money through taxes and whatever else, and can still buy weapons.
I'm after a product, so I will get it.

North Korea hasn't attack and occupied anyone as of late.

sovtek

Judt wrote:

Boycott Israeli products and you should boycott the products of the nations which support it. That leaves you with bread and bottled water - who knows where that fluoride comes from - and you couldn't even drink Guinness, being owned by a foreign company which pays some of its profits in tax to the supporters of Israel. I'm not making a political point one way or another (the Israel - Palestine debate can be done to death, literally); just saying that if you want to boycott Israeli products then it doesn't make sense, given Israel's special position in the world, not to boycott the products of its bankrollers.

Does the moral indignation in the room stretch to giving up most booze, fast food and sweets?

You make a valid point, however, there are other political pressure methods besides boycotts that are more practical in cases where that type of political/economic pressure isnt' feasible.

Jimboo_Jones

Deleted User wrote:

Yes.

And if I could be assured that some of the monies would go towards defending innocent Israeli civilians from terrorists, I would buy ten of whatever was going.

I am pretty sure that there are plenty of organizations which support the above cause, which you could donate money too, if indeed you really do feel that strong about it.

sovtek

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

I am pretty sure that there are plenty of organizations which support the above cause, which you could donate money too, if indeed you really do feel that strong about it.

Bt Selem

county

Rabies wrote:

I wouldn't be too bothered to be honest. Its not as if you were buying weapons or human trafficing people.
It was hand cleaner. Not the end of the world.

If some product was made in North Korea that i liked and if it was available here, I would buy it.

Not a huge issue in my opinion.

I know at some stage along the line the government of whatever country is getting it's money through taxes and whatever else, and can still buy weapons.
I'm after a product, so I will get it.

i`m with you on this one,whats the big deal

brianthebard

SeanW wrote:

As for me, I hold both Israel and its enemies equally responsible for the carnage, I would never knowingly buy anything from Israel but would never knowingly buy anything from Syria or Iran or anything linked to Hamas either. I also believe that Western society should make the end of dependence on Saudi oil priority number 1, because SA is one of the most barbarian states on Earth. My refusal to knowingly buy certain Middle Eastern goods will continue until they all just sit the f*ck down and get this crap sorted out for the benefit of themselves and all mankind, but I don't think that will happen in my lifetime if ever.

So you don't buy heating oil or electricity from the ESB that was made by burning Middle East oil?

brianthebard

kmick wrote:

Lets not discriminate against the biggest pack of failed countries the world has ever seen.

You can't call them failed countries without considering their origins and the role colonialism played in their failure. They were ****ed before they ever became independant.

Sand

Yeah, dont see why not - Id buy Palestinian goods as well so alls fair. As someones mentioned already if you refuse to purchase goods from countries based on political policies you disagree with....well thats a very short shopping list.

Id support boycotts against inhuman regimes, like say North Korea, but the Israelis and Palestinians seem well able to match each other in general mayhem so it would be unfair to discriminate.

As for the womans attitude - Sounds like she was Israeli herself they way youre portraying the conversation. Or maybe she was just annoyed at getting a "holier than thou" lecture of someone in a shopping center packed with goods mass produced in places like China?

SeanW

could have been either, like I asked the OP, I'm slightly curious as to the saleswomans approach to this, did she have an accent?

kincsem

Yeah, I'd buy products from Israel, or any other country.

I'm not becoming part of an army against any nation.

Ping Chow Chi

Sand wrote:

Yeah, dont see why not - Id buy Palestinian goods as well so alls fair.

good luck in finding any goods that Isreal have actually let them export in your supermarket

mayhem#

It's amazing how waferthin and unfounded some people's opinions are.
For one it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things if you stopped buying products from Israel. It's just another one of the ways that limp wristed bleeding heart lefties try to soothe their own conscience..
What's more; Israel is one of the only countries left on this planet that actually has a set of idals and principles and that stands by them instead of pandering to the public opinion. That alone gets my vote...

E.

Manic Moran

Israel's tech industry is probably second in the world only to that of Silicon Valley, California. Boycotting anything with Israeli connections is likely to be rather detremental to your convenience of living.

As for the American boycott laws, there are no rules against private boycotts of countries (Not least, they'd be almost unenforcable), but lower government agencies such as states, counties or cities are not permitted to engage in international boycotts without the approval of the Feds: An international boycott is an extension of international relations and politics, which per the US Constitution is a role solely reserved to the Federal Government in Washington D.C.

NTM

Judt

Good point, Manic. Note, if you will, some of the codenames of Intel's recent processors, the company having major research and development facilities in Israel - if you buy a notebook with Core 2 (AKA Merom, named after the lake of the same name in Israel) processors you're breaking your vow.

Rabies

sovtek wrote:

North Korea hasn't attack and occupied anyone as of late.

I was using N.Korea as an example. First place that came to mind, I'm watching a good bit of Fox News lately (don't shoot me )

Jimboo_Jones

mayhem# wrote:

Israel is one of the only countries left on this planet that actually has a set of idals and principles and that stands by them instead of pandering to the public opinion.

E.

Well I think Stalin also had a set of ideals and didn't pander to public opinion, but then he would lose points on being one of them limp wristed lefties I guess

I think you should say that Isreal sticks to Ideals that you agree with.

I am dont go out of my way to boycott products - I guess I enjoy my comforts too much, and the list of countries that you could consider for a boycott would be huge.... do I boycott japanese products now that they want to hunt more whales?

I guess I should take the advice I gave earlier and donate money to a organisation that supports a cause that I believe in, the supermarket is a minefield

imeddyhobbs

imeddyhobbs wrote:

I want to know what you think of this encounter.

Fair play to her actually. She's selling a product, and a customer starts spouting political rubbish at her. I'd probably do the same if Ireland was in a similiar situation. She was there to sell. Instead you lorded your beliefs. Why not just say no, and move on?

I belive that israel is a terrorist state.

Fair enough. I certainly don't.

I will not knowingly buy anything from Israel
What do you think of her attitude.
Would you knowingly buy from Israel?

But it wont affect what I buy. I don't believe my buying power is all that significiant.

Were u against the US invasion & occupation of Iraq? If so, have you boycotted US & UK goods aswell, or is it just Israel that gets your attention?

Zynks

Deleted User wrote:

Fair play to her actually. She's selling a product, and a customer starts spouting political rubbish at her. I'd probably do the same if Ireland was in a similiar situation. She was there to sell. Instead you lorded your beliefs. Why not just say no, and move on?

Well, she could have said she was not interested in politics and that would be that.

Deleted User wrote:

But it wont affect what I buy. I don't believe my buying power is all that significiant.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same perception of your voting power?

I personally try to avoid products that are known to be linked to:

• Child labour
• Indonesia
• Israel
• US

It is a bit like the story of the elephant running from a forest on fire when he sees a bird flying to the river, filling his beak with water and he ask if the bird is mad since there is no way he can put the fire off by himself. The bird replies "well, I am doing my bit!"...

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

Israel's tech industry is probably second in the world only to that of Silicon Valley, California. Boycotting anything with Israeli connections is likely to be rather detremental to your convenience of living.

Thought it was only weapons based technology. Most tech comes from China. Silicon Valley stopped being the first a long time ago.

As for the American boycott laws, there are no rules against private boycotts of countries

Your personal boycott true, however if you were to refuse to do business with a company on the grounds it did business with or was part of Israel then there are US laws that will basically shut off your business from any US companies. And if it is a US company doing this (even outside of the US) you could fail jail time and fines.

Part of the US Export laws.

Zynks

Zynks wrote:

I personally try to avoid products that are known to be linked to:

• Child labour
• Indonesia
• Israel
• US

Do I take it you buy Russian and Chinese products, supporting the war on Chechnya and an appalling human rights record. And British goods, supporting the invasion of Iraq. Why are the people killed by those regimes less worthy?

El Stuntman

mayhem# wrote:

It's just another one of the ways that limp wristed bleeding heart lefties try to soothe their own conscience..
What's more; Israel is one of the only countries left on this planet that actually has a set of idals and principles and that stands by them instead of pandering to the public opinion. That alone gets my vote...
E.

LOL! that sounds like a very nasty medical condition....it afflicts far too many in this country

Israel is not a 'failed state' imo, it has a functioning democracy. Interesting to see how the two main blocs in Palestinian politics are currently ironing out their disgareements (i.e. by killing each other) - I suppose this is the Israeli's fault too? As part of the group of countries sharing modern democratic values, Israel is part of 'our' world....is Palestine?

If I had to live in the middle east, I'd far prefer to live in Israel than any of the other countries there. Suppose Dubai would be a distant number 2 and then....nowhere

Frederico

mayhem# wrote:

It's amazing how waferthin and unfounded some people's opinions are.
For one it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things if you stopped buying products from Israel. It's just another one of the ways that limp wristed bleeding heart lefties try to soothe their own conscience..
What's more; Israel is one of the only countries left on this planet that actually has a set of idals and principles and that stands by them instead of pandering to the public opinion. That alone gets my vote...

E.

Ugh nothing worse than those limp wristed nancy boy lefties!! ooo look at us we waant to save the environment.. oooo we want peace in the world... bunch of pansies!

Now Israel, theres a manly country!.. war, occupation, brute force!.. they solve things the good old fashioned way!.. shotguns, rocking chairs, porches..

Zynks

Deleted User wrote:

Do I take it you buy Russian and Chinese products, supporting the war on Chechnya and an appalling human rights record. And British goods, supporting the invasion of Iraq. Why are the people killed by those regimes less worthy?

No, they are not.
I can't support all charities either, so I have to choose just a few and try to make a difference in that way.
I'd rather do a bit than nothing at all, which seems to be where your argumentation leads to.;)

Hagar

Zynks wrote:

It is a bit like the story of the elephant running from a forest on fire when he sees a bird flying to the river, filling his beak with water and he ask if the bird is mad since there is no way he can put the fire off by himself. The bird replies "well, I am doing my bit!"...

Lovely story, how did it work out?

When the South African boycott was in force it got great support from people who never questioned how SA's underdeveloped and drought-ridden neighbours were suddenly able to produce the exact quantity and quality of fresh fruit that SA used to produce before the boycott.

Boycott Isreal and you may find the same produce mysteriously coming from a neighbouring country so then you can buy it with a clear conscience.

El Stuntman

Frederico wrote:

Now Israel, theres a manly country!.. war, occupation, brute force!.. they solve things the good old fashioned way!.. shotguns, rocking chairs, porches..

you forgot incest...

mayhem#

Frederico wrote:

Ugh nothing worse than those limp wristed nancy boy lefties!! ooo look at us we waant to save the environment.. oooo we want peace in the world... bunch of pansies!

Now Israel, theres a manly country!.. war, occupation, brute force!.. they solve things the good old fashioned way!.. shotguns, rocking chairs, porches..

Not at all.
All of Israel's actions are undertaken in an effort to defend their citizens right to their territory. While they resort to military action to defend their legitimate claim to territory the Palestinians (supported by Syria, Iran and others of that ilk) resort to suicide bombings and the tactics of putting children in the line of fire. It would be interesting to see what method you support..

Also, what has your comment about saving the environment got to do with the discussion?

E.

Zynks

Hagar wrote:

Lovely story, how did it work out?

I knew someone would pick on the story, but that's fine since you are a mod:D
Yep, it burned to the ground, most probably. My point is that if you lead by example you help create awareness (the biggest factor of change in my view) and you can make a difference. This was a reply to Klaz's comment "I don't believe my buying power is all that significant".

Hagar wrote:

When the South African boycott was in force it got great support from people who never questioned how SA's underdeveloped and drought-ridden neighbours were suddenly able to produce the exact quantity and quality of fresh fruit that SA used to produce before the boycott.

Boycott Israel and you may find the same produce mysteriously coming from a neighbouring country so then you can buy it with a clear conscience.

Yep, I agree that there are several ways of avoiding the impact of boycotts and deceiving consumers, but is that a reason for people to stop making their point?

mayhem#

imeddyhobbs wrote:

I belive that israel is a terrorist state.

That is on of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time...

E.

Zynks

mayhem# wrote:

That is on of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time...

E.

I suspect there are a lot of people out there with the same "stupid" views.

Fratton Fred

Moisturiser and the like will all come from the Dead Sea, which if I’m not mistaken is in the West Bank. So maybe you are boycotting a company which provides income to thousands of Palestinians.

BTW, there is an Israeli company that produces the billing system for most of the worlds telecom companies, certainly mobile companies, so if you are that keen to boycott their products, I suggest you turn off your mobile phone as well.

Zynks

What are we trying to do here? Is it to discredit the value of commercial boycotts by proving how hard they are to implement? Many points in this thread appear to go in that direction.

Yes, boycotts are hard to implement, and two euro that you may not spend on a certain product may appear not to make much of a difference. BUT, if everyone that has an issue with a country's record or a company's policy decided to hold back on one single purchase as a statement, it will hurt, and I am sure they will know why. Don't underestimate the power consumer actions have.

Of course, there are some highly flawed actions, such as french fries being renamed liberty fries. Imagine the reaction of the french: "OMG, they are disassociating us from junk food. We must help invade Iraq, troops, pack your bags!!!"

El Stuntman

could somebody please define what a 'terrorist state' is?

and a list of countries that can be included as such

would be most helpful to this discussion, ty

Jimboo_Jones

Fratton Fred wrote:

Moisturiser and the like will all come from the Dead Sea

isnt the dead sea quickly disappearing, maybe that is reason enough to boycott the products from there?

Zynks

El Stuntman wrote:

could somebody please define what a 'terrorist state' is?

and a list of countries that can be included as such

would be most helpful to this discussion, ty

In this picture there is an individual from a terrorist state. Can you spot him?

El Stuntman

Zynks wrote:

In this picture there is an individual from a terrorist state. Can you spot him?

that's really helpful thanks

to be serious: what are the attributes of a 'terrorist state'?

Zynks

Zynks wrote:

Well, she could have said she was not interested in politics and that would be that.

Indeed, she could have. However, it was he that initiated the political dialogue. She was only trying to sell a product he had already shown some interest in. He was the one that volunteered an opinion totally unrelated to the product beyond that it came from Israel.

TBH, I thought he was quite rude in what he did. And her response I found extremely reasonable, since she would have no reason to believe that he actually knew anything of the reality of the situation in Palestine/Israel. Afterall, there's alot of Irish (and other) people who have formed opinions on the subject with very little knowledge of the area. After Lebanon, I daresay Israeli's have heard quite a few of these opinions.

On a side note, do products produced by Palestinians & other countries companies' made within Israel, show as being produced in Israel, and therefore fall under your ban?

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same perception of your voting power?

Actually, nope. I vote whenever I have the opportunity. The difference is that my vote counts towards the population of Ireland. My not buying a product counts against everyone that buys the product worldwide. Bit of a difference. Besides, I don't think boycotting a country actually bothers the government, but only affects the people trying to make money through the product.

I personally try to avoid products that are known to be linked to:

Child labour
Indonesia
Israel
US

Really? How comprehensive are you? Cause the US covers quite alot of the products that we receive in Ireland. It also includes alot of the TV shows, movies, and other leisure activities. And why not include the UK & the other coalition countries in this ban?

I'm not disputing your "desire" to boycott Israel. I actually have no issues with you or anyone else doing so. My only real issue is the OP throwing down the "gauntlet" at that woman, simply because he wanted to make that statement. There was no reason for him to announce that he was boycotting Israel. All he had to do was ignore the product, and move on. He was the one that decided that this should no longer be about the product but rather be about his political beliefs.

Just imagine for a second...... that this woman was actually Palestinian, and selling their own products, but under the Israeli label. Do you think she might be justified in saying the OP knew nothing? Or perhaps the company that sells the product donates 30% of their profits to charities & aid stations in Palestinian territories....?

The simple fact is that he made a sweeping judgement on the origin of the product. And this is my main problem with a country type boycott.

There is no knowledge of the products, the companies involved, or how these companies operate in the countries. There is no knowledge as to whether the
company/product is Israeli owned, palestinian owned, staffed by palestinians, etc. And people don't really care to find out. [In My Opinion] People boycott to make themselves feel better. It wouldn't help their stance, if they knew that their boycotting a product, caused the firing of 10 Palestinians who relied on the job for their sole income. Although i suppose that would be another reason to boycott Israel. Know what I mean?

Frederico wrote:

Ugh nothing worse than those limp wristed nancy boy lefties!! ooo look at us we waant to save the environment.. oooo we want
peace in the world... bunch of pansies!

Now Israel, theres a manly country!.. war, occupation, brute force!.. they solve things the good old fashioned way!.. shotguns, rocking chairs,
porches..

Ahh, well, there's the alternative... Palestine, a truely manly country. Violent resistance, corruption, inter-fighting! They "solve" things the same
way all the time!.... suicide bombers, rocket attacks, ambushes, stabbings....

That work better for you?

Originally Posted by mayhem#
That is on of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time...

E.

Zynks wrote:

I suspect there are a lot of people out there with the same "stupid" views.

Sure, there will be. Just as there were thousands who thought Hitler was right in what he sought. Just as thousands supported Stalins actions. Just as thousands of US citizens support US actions in Iraq. Just as thousands support Israel's presence in Palestine. And how thousands support Palestinian resistance. Just as thousands support AQ's war on the West.

For most viewpoints, if you look hard enough, you'll find lots of people to support them. Its a big world.

Jimboo_Jones

Deleted User wrote:

There is no knowledge of the products, the companies involved, or how these companies operate in the countries. There is no knowledge as to whether the
company/product is Israeli owned, palestinian owned, staffed by palestinians, etc. And people don't really care to find out. [In My Opinion] People boycott to make themselves feel better. It wouldn't help their stance, if they knew that their boycotting a product, caused the firing of 10 Palestinians who relied on the job for their sole income. Although i suppose that would be another reason to boycott Israel. Know what I mean?

humm, I guess you didnt support the South African boycott for simalar reasons, IE. the companies boycotted tended to employ black South Africans? Or indeed Sanctions against North Korea, which would again impact most on the poorest the most.

Of course people boycott Israel to make themself feel better, maybe they dont like to think that maybe some small part of their cash goes towards the cost of a bomb which is later dropped on a family having a picknic at a beach, or on their appartment as they sleep etc etc... its their choice after all.

heres an interesting article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/99544.stm

'The per capita income of Palestinians has fallen by 40% since the peace accords of 1993. Few would disagree that the two factors of increasing economic hardship and despair over progress in the peace negotiations are a volatile combination.'

I found it suprising that the average income had fallen during peacefull times to be honest. (this was writen in 1998)

Judt

Hobbes wrote:

Thought it was only weapons based technology. Most tech comes from China. Silicon Valley stopped being the first a long time ago.

Part of the US Export laws.

You mean Taiwan? Or do you support China in that one? Israel is where Intel, and other companies, do a lot of R&D.