Systema live gun defence - dont try this at home kids

yomchi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghlvfvx_6JM

:rolleyes:

Dragan

Makes perfect sense.....although, what with it supposedly being a RBSD system should the guy not have actually been pulling the trigger?

paxo

I have practiced gun defenses, both pistol and rifle, in Krav. IMO they were interesting drills to train in. Were they practical ? not really IMO. Guns are pretty tightly controlled here in Oz especially since the Port Arthur Massacre so most shootings appear to be either crime related or domestic violence. related.

Port Arthur was a massacre in 1996 by a lone gunman useing assault rifles in which he killed 35 people. He stood off his victims at a distance and shot them down. It seems that in most shootings the shooter maintains some distance and therefore would be very difficult to disarm.


Paxo

paul moran

Isn't a gun a ballistic weapon. Why is it neccessary to stick the gun into his chest, that's the job for a knife. The gunman should be on the other side of the field???

arybvtcw0eolkf

paul moran wrote:

Isn't a gun a ballistic weapon. Why is it neccessary to stick the gun into his chest, that's the job for a knife. The gunman should be on the other side of the field???

Like this..



Me in Lebanon practicing just what you said!..

yomchi

Mairt wrote:

Like this..



Me in Lebanon practicing just what you said!..

Did you have to put 50 cent into that thing?

Roper

Thats not Lebanon thats Howth Head!:D

john kavanagh

ah yes the typical scenario of someone jamming a gun into your gut, if i'd a euro for every time this has happened to me while heading down to the shops for a pint of milk :rolleyes:

???

As long as the gun is against you if you just knock it aside quickly and follow up hard (two fingers through the throat/poke in the eye/any other fast hard technique) you have about an 80% chace of taking him out. If he has any experience with a gun he will be at least 3 foot away and then there's sweet fa you can do!

Roper

??? wrote:

As long as the gun is against you if you just knock it aside quickly and follow up hard (two fingers through the throat/poke in the eye/any other fast hard technique) you have about an 80% chace of taking him out. If he has any experience with a gun he will be at least 3 foot away and then there's sweet fa you can do!

How do you know this can I ask?

gymrabbit

??? wrote:

As long as the gun is against you if you just knock it aside quickly and follow up hard (two fingers through the throat/poke in the eye/any other fast hard technique) you have about an 80% chace of taking him out. If he has any experience with a gun he will be at least 3 foot away and then there's sweet fa you can do!

same question as roper.

john kavanagh

what, you didnt get the statistical analysis from FBI/CIA/Commando monthly regarding the '4 out of 5' rule for gun defence? sheesh you're so last year!

Roper

john kavanagh wrote:

what, you didnt get the statistical analysis from FBI/CIA/Commando monthly regarding the '4 out of 5' rule for gun defence? sheesh you're so last year!

As a martial arts instructor I get those reports sent to me, but they just clutter up my desk so I just get my secretary to file them away under "guns n' booze". (paper gun statistics, real booze)

Dragan

john kavanagh wrote:

if i'd a euro for every time this has happened to me while heading down to the shops for a pint of milk :rolleyes:

It would at least pay for your milk every time!

john kavanagh

Dragan wrote:

It would at least pay for your milk every time!

lol

Cake Fiend

??? wrote:

As long as the gun is against you if you just knock it aside quickly and follow up hard (two fingers through the throat/poke in the eye/any other fast hard technique) you have about an 80% chace of taking him out. If he has any experience with a gun he will be at least 3 foot away and then there's sweet fa you can do!

I think you'll find that would give you only a 79.67% chance, according to my own imaginary scientific observation. Of course these odds will waver, depending on the usual circumstances of direction, wind resistance, flight speed of the African sparrow, etc.

(In other words, LOL, stop watching so much TV)

???

If you say so. I'm only saying what someone who did judo for Ireland and taught self defense for twenty years told me. If someone is up close to you they don't know what there doing. Anyone here who's shot a gun will realise that it actually takes quite a hard pull on the trigger to fire it. If you aren't ready for that it takes a few seconds to actually fire it.

But hell what do I know???

Roper

??? wrote:

If you say so. I'm only saying what someone who did judo for Ireland and taught self defense for twenty years told me. If someone is up close to you they don't know what there doing. Anyone here who's shot a gun will realise that it actually takes quite a hard pull on the trigger to fire it. If you aren't ready for that it takes a few seconds to actually fire it.

But hell what do I know???

Well I think you summed it up nicely in the last sentence there:rolleyes:.

Having fired 4 various types of firearm I can tell you that 3 out of the 4 were very, very easy to fire, and one was difficult. Not to pick here but if I had my finger on the trigger it wouldn't take me "a few seconds" to pull it!and I've only shot for recreation!:D Still, your original comment was quite funny.

Millionaire

The KM lads in Israel , (as we know KM is well known for gun defence) told me, only to use a gun defence if you think your going to get shot, and its your last ditch atempt to save your life...

In other words they are not perfect, and no guarantee of working.

Plus i'd imagine if a pistol discharged when you attempt to disarm it, even if bullet fires away from you...the bang, heat, shock, and powder burn to your hand, would not be a pleasent experience.

I have fired plenty of Colt 45, Glock, Smith and Weston, AK-47 and there is some bang and recoil of a Colt 45.... I would not fancy grapping a Colt to disarm an attacker, and it going off with my hand around the pistol! Km or no KM!!!

see s & w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7MG-hzz_g

colt 45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IATdmk8hfP8 serious recoil

arybvtcw0eolkf

??? wrote:

If you say so. I'm only saying what someone who did judo for Ireland and taught self defense for twenty years told me. If someone is up close to you they don't know what there doing. Anyone here who's shot a gun will realise that it actually takes quite a hard pull on the trigger to fire it. If you aren't ready for that it takes a few seconds to actually fire it.

But hell what do I know???

It appear's as though you know nothing.

***Oh, btw. Being a member of the defence forces with over twenty year's service I've fired once or twice

gymrabbit

??? wrote:

If you say so. I'm only saying what someone who did judo for Ireland and taught self defense for twenty years told me. If someone is up close to you they don't know what there doing. Anyone here who's shot a gun will realise that it actually takes quite a hard pull on the trigger to fire it. If you aren't ready for that it takes a few seconds to actually fire it.

But hell what do I know???

who's the judo guy that told you this ?

paxo

Millionaire wrote:

The KM lads in Israel , (as we know KM is well known for gun defence) told me, only to use a gun defence if you think your going to get shot, and its your last ditch atempt to save your life...

In other words they are not perfect, and no guarantee of working.

Plus i'd imagine if a pistol discharged when you attempt to disarm it, even if bullet fires away from you...the bang, heat, shock, and powder burn to your hand, would not be a pleasent experience.

I have fired plenty of Colt 45, Glock, Smith and Weston, AK-47 and there is some bang and recoil of a Colt 45.... I would not fancy grapping a Colt to disarm an attacker, and it going off with my hand around the pistol! Km or no KM!!!

see s & w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7MG-hzz_g

colt 45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IATdmk8hfP8 serious recoil

Krav incorporates a drill where you stand to the side of the person discharging the firearm and grip the firearm as they discharge it. The idea is to prepare you for the noise, muzzle flash and recoil. Most people automaticaly flinch the first time and let go of the firearm. The point being that if you only dry drill these techniques there is a risk that in a real situation you may well grab and deflect the firearm and end up letting go if it discharges. Not a good outcome

Paxo

yomchi

paxo wrote:

Krav incorporates a drill where you stand to the side of the person discharging the firearm and grip the firearm as they discharge it. The idea is to prepare you for the noise, muzzle flash and recoil. Most people automaticaly flinch the first time and let go of the firearm. The point being that if you only dry drill these techniques there is a risk that in a real situation you may well grab and deflect the firearm and end up letting go if it discharges. Not a good outcome

Paxo

If the Krav guys train this, how do they compensate for the ejection of the spent round? The movement of a semi-auto as it re-loads? Surely if it's an all out grab, holding the weapon becomes dangerous. Unless its a revolver of some kind

yomchi

??? wrote:

If you say so. I'm only saying what someone who did judo for Ireland and taught self defense for twenty years told me. If someone is up close to you they don't know what there doing. Anyone here who's shot a gun will realise that it actually takes quite a hard pull on the trigger to fire it. If you aren't ready for that it takes a few seconds to actually fire it.

But hell what do I know???

To come to your defence a wee bit!

It will take an extra bit of pressure to pull the trigger on any short arm that has it's safety built into the trigger mechanism. For example the Glock has a 'double' trigger pull as it's saefety is in the trigger pull. However thats for all similar weapons that aren't cocked. Im sure Mairt will correct me if im wrong

Millionaire

well I d guess and say 98% of KM guys...me included, train this with replica pistol or rifle which is shaped and sometimes weighted similar to the real thing.

since I hung up my AK 47 many years ago...ha ha...only joking...!!!!

Seriously, I did make it my business to get down to a firing range and fire as many different weapons as possible in order to experience, the power, bang, flinch, etc etc... in relation to KM. here in Thailand it is very easy to get access to fire guns.


I know some of the real serious guys in KM in israel have trainied using those guns some armies use to simulate real gun fire.... sort of like a very real paint ball gun... simmunation... I think they are called. and the KM defences worked.

They also use live and sharp real knives for the knife stuff too.

But then again these guys train 5 or 6 hour 5 or 6 days a week, so if your training that much, you can nearly make anything work.

Roper

Mairt wrote:

***Oh, btw. Being a member of the defence forces with over twenty year's service I've fired once or twice

And was it hard to pull the trigger?:D

If the Krav guys train this, how do they compensate for the ejection of the spent round? The movement of a semi-auto as it re-loads? Surely if it's an all out grab, holding the weapon becomes dangerous. Unless its a revolver of some kind

I'm sure there's some logic there like: its better to get your hand chewed by a semi-auto than get shot in the guts by one. Or something...:rolleyes: I've heard that 80% of the time people put their hand there they win...:rolleyes:

Millionaire

Apparently grabbing hard the semi automatic, over the bolt action, stops the action from moving, and discharging, or re firing.

So when you remove the weapon, and quickly step out of reach, you check the mag is still in place, and pull the bolt slide back to recock.

again the people who taught, me... I hate bring this up as to me it has little do do with now good you are at fighting with no weapons, were all in the military, and that worked the teachniques using the real pistols, and how each one reacted, or jammed depending on how you grab it.

john kavanagh

lol i think everybody, just for a moment, should try and imagine the sheer terror they would feel when their life could end at any instant if someone had a gun pointed at them.
most people wouldn't have the nerve to do a FC thai style fight or MMA fight (and they are safe with rules/ref etc)....but you would be able to handle the fear and do a 'jack bauer' to disarm someone that wants to end your life??

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

lol i think everybody, just for a moment, should try and imagine the sheer terror they would feel when their life could end at any instant if someone had a gun pointed at them.
most people wouldn't have the nerve to do a FC thai style fight or MMA fight (and they are safe with rules/ref etc)....but you would be able to handle the fear and do a 'jack bauer' to disarm someone that wants to end your life??

Its like the story I posted about knife defence before. I'd done some knife defence seminar's (attended some rather) and when I fought a post office robber on May 6th year it all went out the window. It was a matter of G&P and try to keep the knife away from me, no fancy moves.

A gun is worse. I've been under both artillary & small arms fire and its bloody terrifying. I can only imagine it being x100 worse up close and personal.

But I also think that 'up close & personal' you'd act through instinct. Either way, your dead!.

Oh, & this is a rediculus discussion IMO.

Roper

Hey, I had a gun pointed at me and it wasn't nice. I couldn't speak let alone do a damn disarm (not that I knew any, I should have paid more attention to the Seagal movies!).

Anyway, I think training in gun disarms is crazy. Full on, non stop, crazy, unless you are one of the following:
1) A member of the military or some such org
2) A drug dealer- in this case its a pretty good idea I reckon
3) A person who thinks the end is nigh, stocks canned food in the attic and owns a gas mask. In the new world they'll try to take your stocks of iodine so you gotta do what has to be done!

paxo

Millionaire wrote:

Apparently grabbing hard the semi automatic, over the bolt action, stops the action from moving, and discharging, or re firing.

So when you remove the weapon, and quickly step out of reach, you check the mag is still in place, and pull the bolt slide back to recock.

again the people who taught, me... I hate bring this up as to me it has little do do with now good you are at fighting with no weapons, were all in the military, and that worked the teachniques using the real pistols, and how each one reacted, or jammed depending on how you grab it.

thats the idea. the semiauto can fire once but your grip should prevent the slide from moveing and recocking the weapon.

Mind you if some Bast@#d pointed a semiauto at me I think that I would be a very cooperative bloke and give him what he wanted. OK maybe not bending over and thinking of Ireland but pretty much anything else. Better a live coward than a dead hero

Paxo

Roper

paxo wrote:

OK maybe not bending over and thinking of Ireland but pretty much anything else.

Theres an idea for a new topic for ya. Pop quiz, buggery is your only escape- what do you do hot shot?:D

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

when I fought a post office robber on May 6th year it all went out the window. It was a matter of G&P and try to keep the knife away from me, no fancy moves.

i have to ask - why would you risk your life tackling an armed robber?

Dyr

john kavanagh wrote:

i have to ask - why would you risk your life tackling an armed robber?

the first spiderman movie answers this question

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

i have to ask - why would you risk your life tackling an armed robber?

Here's the story. I posted this before, and some may remember it as it was in the media for awhile since it also involved an preacher from the Congo.

I was driving past the P.O. (Mobhi Rd, Phibsboro) when the African lad was thrown through the window of the P.O. (I was driving an army vehicle, I was unarmed). People shouted over to me that it was an armed robbery & the guy "has a gun".

Acting purely on instinct I dismounted and tackled the robber. He was masked, had a gun (which turned out to be fake) & a kitchen/steak knife.

When I tackled him the gun fell, but he continued to try to stab me with his knife. I couldn't take the knife from his grip so while I had him on his back, his arm outstretched I kept my boot on his wrist and litterally knocked seven colours of sh*t out of him (I mean I subdued him your honour).

So you asked why did I risk my life?..

A few things.

First off, it was purely instinct.

Second I was in uniform and civilians were looking to me for help, sounds cheesy, but that probably ranks alongside acting on instinct.

I've often thought would I do it if I wasn't in uniform, and to be honest I think I would.

john kavanagh

crazy story!

i know if it was me, i couldn't risk leaving my son without a father to try and stop someone getting away with a few quid - just not worth it imo.

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

crazy story!

i know if it was me, i couldn't risk leaving my son without a father to try and stop someone getting away with a few quid - just not worth it imo.

John untill you faced with a similiar situation you really can't say that.

But I will tell you what you wouldn't do, and this makes me extremly angry..

While I was holding him and waiting for the cops people actually stepped over me and other's stood around looking without once offering to help. The guy was screaming at me all the time that he was going to stab me to death.

When the cops took him away I administered first aid to the preacher. Luckily I'd come of a medic's course in work, which involved treating all sorts of injuries. While tending to his wounds I asked the butchers next to me to get me as many clothes as he could, plus some latex gloves, he refused!!!.

John, not a single person there offered to help except one little old lady.

The preacher thought he was going to die, and didn't want to die without his bible. I asked where it was, and it had fallen from him during the scuffle in the P.O. (he initially tackled the robber inside the P.O.). Anyway, I was asking people to get the guy his bible (while tending his wounds and comforting him) NOT ONE PERSON would go get it, except a little old lady who asked "can I help son?". I told her about the bible, and without a seconds thought he stepped in through the broken pane of glass and retrieved it for him.


John, I'd like to think people in this forum would have least have the decency to help.
Anyway, yes its a crazy story and thankfully (in light of what happened in Kilkenny two weeks ago) I survived without a scratch.

judomick

watch this, gets amazing towards the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsQE7d2D6fg

Musashi

Pop quiz, buggery is your only escape- what do you do hot shot?

Never tell you lads how I effected my escape!

And how would you go about disarming guys who shoot like this, except maybe by long range rifle fire?

"Doubletap Ranch" pistol comp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTSuLlUDCXw&mode=related&search=

Todd Jarrett, a master at work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42LgOQERHU&mode=related&search=

john kavanagh

yes you're right, if i came across someone restraining somebody and i knew what had happened i'd help out.......but in saying that i can understand why some people wouldn't.

they didn't chose to risk their lives stopping somebody stealing money.

the preacher and yourself did so have to accept the consequences. lets say one of them did come over to help you, but the guy managed to cut you then get up and stab them for attempting to help you. unlikely i know, but the 'self preservation' drive is the strongest one to overcome and i can understand where they were coming from.

fair play for looking after the preacher and knowing what to do.

gymrabbit

yes i remember this story from the media and from a previous discussion on this forum. i think mairt did the right thing for mairt. He probably would have felt guilty afterwards if someone was hurt due to his inactivity. I'd assume he wouldn't have felt guilty for too long if the guy just got away with money. Money grows on trees so it's not worth risking life for. I can understand why most people wouldn't intervene. I'm not sure what I'd do, I'd probably just stand there for a while going "WTF should I do".

One man's bravery is another man's foolishness.

Roper

Who was it that said "Evil is what happens when good men do nothing"?

john kavanagh

Roper wrote:

Who was it that said "Evil is what happens when good men do nothing"?

very true, and for the right cause i'd like to think i would take action....but risk my life for money, not a chance!

gymrabbit

spiderman 3 looks deadly by the way.

Zambia

Roper wrote:

Who was it that said "Evil is what happens when good men do nothing"?

Somebody in Rwanda...

However I think anyone trained in the use of a firearm of any description would shove it in your gut. These men are being trained to take guns out of the hands of who exactly ...

arybvtcw0eolkf

John, do you honestly believe if you were in uniform like I was that you'd do nothing?..

Maybe because of my job/uniform I'm in a different mindset than you?.

I've never come across anything like this as a civilian, but wouldn't I have been a fine soldier if I'd ignored the people who'd looked to me for help?.

One other question JK. If you were at a similiar scene, would you have expected a member of the Defence Forces to act?. And if they didn't would you think any less of the Defence Forces?. (Sry, that was two questions I guess).

Btw, I'm not saying your wrong saying you'd do nothing. Your a family man just like myself, for my sin's I've two children!.

Millionaire

You were right in what you did Mairt..especially as a member of the defence forces.

Its good to know, there are people out there you will step in and help. especially soldiers and gardai.

I've stopped hand bags snatchers in town, just about grab some old ladies bag/money....and I feel fully vindicated in doing what I did.

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

John, do you honestly believe if you were in uniform like I was that you'd do nothing?..

Maybe because of my job/uniform I'm in a different mindset than you?

i guess i can't answer those questions 100% as i'm not in a uniform but if you are asking me would i risk my life over some cash then no.

Mairt wrote:

One other question JK. If you were at a similiar scene, would you have expected a member of the Defence Forces to act?

to tackle a man armed with a gun over cash? no. i just dont think it was worth risking your life. like i said fair play to you and it all worked out...but i certainly wouldn't think any less of anybody for not trying to stop someone getting away with a few quid who has a gun and a knife.

Mairt wrote:

Btw, I'm not saying your wrong saying you'd do nothing. Your a family man just like myself, for my sin's I've two children!.

i don't have any kids, just making the point as i think i remembered you having a son?


like i said if i saw somone being badly hurt and i knew enough about the situation that i knew they were a victim i would step in - have done so in the past. but thats a very different thing to trying to stop an armed robber getting away with some (probably insured) cash. i think i'd just call the police and pass on whatever details i could.

but the fact that no one would help you when you were tending to that poor fellas wounds, and there was no danger to them is unbelievable - guess its a sad fact of 'city' life

Millionaire

What about this then...


Your in town on Henry street, standing waiting for a friend. As you look around you see a street thug, just about to stick his hand into some elderly ladies hand bag, and grab her purse full of xmas money/pension, and probably the old lady gets a hard shove as the thug makes his get away?

Do you stand by and let the crime take place?

Or do you run over, grab the thug and stop him from robbing the old lady?


I know a few ladies both old and young who were dipped, or physically mugged in town (given a few slaps and kicks) and all were very scared for years after. in fact one, was too scared ever to come to visit dublin again.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Btw John.

Not once, until this thread did I consider that someone might be making away with some cash!.

I thought you had a young fella John, sorry about that.

Right, I'm off to work... The other one, I won't be jumping out at anyone

Oh, and this is the second time I've involved myself in tackling an armed robber!.. but thats another story!.

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

Your in town on Henry street, standing waiting for a friend. As you look around you see a street thug, just about to stick his hand into some elderly ladies hand bag, and grab her purse full of xmas money/pension, and probably the old lady gets a hard shove as the thug makes his get away?

Do you stand by and let the crime take place?

Or do you run over, grab the thug and stop him from robbing the old lady?

moi? personally, i'd step in. tis a bit different - a post office, an old lady.

Mairt wrote:

Not once, until this thread did I consider that someone might be making away with some cash!

so what did you think you were stopping?

Mairt wrote:

Oh, and this is the second time I've involved myself in tackling an armed robber!

:eek: what happened then?