Proffesional programmers, what do you know?

DaSilva

I'm in college right now and loving programming and am hoping to do this fulltime after I finish studying. However it's a little daunting as the programming world is so huge.

I study Java, Visual Basic, and Assembly 80x85 in College. And in my free time I'm doing C. I picked C because it's very popular, and somewhere inbetween Assembly and Java in terms of language level. I like them all and have fun learning new stuff in each, (even VB despite the knocking it gets).

I'm ok and getting better at these languages, but then I go and look at what other people are doing and I find loads are using Python, Perl, Ruby and other languages alot also. And then theres all the Web languages, PHP, ASP, Javascript, etc

Do you guys know all of these things? I imagine it's quite a bit easier to learn a new language once you have learnt another fully.

Also, what exactly is AJAX? If someone can give me a laymans explanation. I've sort of figured out its something to do with Javascript, and DHTML, which is what? A better or more sofisticated version of HTML?

Evil Phil

Asynchronous JavaScript and XML (AJAX). If you're looking for a term you don't understand try Google. 'Define: Ajax' in google will give you more than you'll ever need to know. I'd say stick with what you're doing now if you can do Java, C and assembly then you can pretty much do everything else too. Worry about php and the rest when your out in the industry.

Nice to see a student making an effort.

Civilian_Target

There is no magic patch, programming languages are easy to learn but hard to master.
I've drifted back to being a student from employment as a Java programmer, I also have good skills in PHP, COBOL and PROLOG (as well as a firm grasp of network technology, XHTML and CSS2) and less good skills in FORTRAN, LoadRunner Scripted C, Visual Basic, Python and Lisp/Scheme.

What I'm noticing from your skills is that they're all in imperative languages. Why not try learning a functional or declarative programming language, it will almost certainly improve your programming style. Mostly useless (but interesting) languages to learn are Lisp, PROLOG or Haskell, or if you want something more practical it might not hurt to take a look at Python or Ruby.

Also, if you want to learn more about concise programming, I strongly recommend you read "The Little Schemer"

DaSilva

Civilian_Target wrote:

Also, if you want to learn more about concise programming, I strongly recommend you read "The Little Schemer"

I wonder is that related too a book I did read (well half of it, had to give it back to library, will get again after xmass), called "The Little Lisper", which was an amazing book, loved how it was done and understood everything that was going on as it was explained well (well asked well, which explained it, peculiar style but very effective). I was trying out LISP because I had heard it helps learn difirent programming style, recursive mainly from what I saw/read. But I decided it would be better to focus on what I was doing first, get them down well and then go at LISP as I was afraid of confusing all this new knowlledge, and end up mixing C with JAVA with Assembly, etc etc..

Civilian_Target

Same author anyway...

Merrion

It'd be worth your while learning some SQL and database design if you want to program for a living - most of the stuff that pays has a database at its heart....

Evil Phil

Have a read of Code Complete too if you can.

Hobbes

Evil Phil wrote:

Have a read of Code Complete too if you can.

Exactly. I think thats one of the traps people fall into when starting to code. It isn't always on how many languages you know. There is a whole world of coding conventions, methods and processes that need to be learnt as well.

Code Complete, pragmatic programmer and its ilk all required reading imho.

NutJob

I second Code Complete (its a bible) Also Secure Code is worth a read But the general advice most people will give you is read up there are 2 tons of great books out there that will help get you moving in the right direction

HelterSkelter

I wouldn't be too worried about knowing a wide range of languages, it's best to concentrate on being really good on one or two languages rather than having a basic knowledge of loads but not enough knowledge to complete a project yourself. The language you learn depends on what branch of development you want to go into. C and assembly are good for engineering software but would be pretty much useless and obsolete if you're going to be writing database access stuff. I write a load of accountancy software with database access, some web stuff and we use ASP.NET (C#).

amen

ohh languages that I know
PL/1, DB2, JCL, PASCAL, TURBO PASCAL, C, C++,VB, VB.NET, C#, ASP, ASP.NET,
SQL, JScript, JAVA(a bit), PERL(okish), PHP, Some assemebly 8086 thats about it

Ginger

I would start learning some of the .NET languages.. They are always screeaming out for Junior ASP.NET programmers and its a very easy way to get some practical experience during the summer.

Also that the 2.0 tools are free to download and use its a very easy way to get going on it..

Best of luck

StickyMcGinty

i'm in a similar situation as the op, 3rd year student, have good knowledge of

C++, Java, Haskell, MIPS, 8086 assembly, Prolog, PL/SQL, MySql

is there any more "essential" languages that it would be handy to pick up before i leave college, what are the fundamental languages required by most employees?? cheers lads, they never teach you anything about post college wok when in college so i pretty mch havnt a clue what to expect

Elfman

I'm in the same position . You do your course and learn your stuff but i have no idea what to expect .

Ne tips on cv or the type of interview questions asked . Also any advice of weather or not the java certs are worth doing ?

thanks

-Elfman

robfitz

Knowing a few different types of languages is always a good thing, but you also need to know how to work with any provided API's, most languages are very limited without the API's.

Also combinding languages is very common. A shopping website might use HTML, JavaScript and CSS for the presentation, but the server side might use PHP and SQL, with some form of XML RPC used for credit card payments.

Most jobs will involve a large amount of maintenance of existing code, so it helps to be able to read other peoples code quickly.

Some other topics worth knowing include, debugging, revision control, build systems (make, ant), command line tools, unix/linux.

And the last one is learn to use a good programmers text editor.

rsynnott

VinnyL wrote:

i'm in a similar situation as the op, 3rd year student, have good knowledge of

C++, Java, Haskell, MIPS, 8086 assembly, Prolog, PL/SQL, MySql

is there any more "essential" languages that it would be handy to pick up before i leave college, what are the fundamental languages required by most employees?? cheers lads, they never teach you anything about post college wok when in college so i pretty mch havnt a clue what to expect

Python mightn't be a bad idea. It's quite simple, and is used a fair bit. Ditto perl, though it's horrible and ugly.

The Corinthian

rsynnott wrote:

Python mightn't be a bad idea. It's quite simple, and is used a fair bit.

Not really. It's used as an alternative to Perl, which in turn is only used by net admins at this stage. If he/she is looking to be a professional programmer and is just starting out then it's best he looks at those languages that are 'bread and butter' to programming jobs/contracts as well as those that are likely to become so - Python is not one of those, IMHO.

GoneShootin

Ginger wrote:

I would start learning some of the .NET languages.

I agree. What puts bread with the odd bit of butter on my table is PHP development, but having been through the process of looking about in recruitment websites and looking for work, I came across a **** load of jobs that were looking for developers at the .NET end of things.

Draupnir

The company I work for is pretty much .NET entirely and there are a bundle of .NET jobs out there, particularly for graduates.

I would certainly recommend improving your database skills, your SQL skills and your ability to put together user defined functions, stored procs etc.

Its almost amazing how little you learn, or at least I did, in college in SQL terms when you compare it to how regularly you will use it, in most jobs, no matter what the language you use to code.

caff

A lot of the graduate stuff you will see advertised is for .NET

SQL and database design is pretty much a must fior anything related to web work, need to know about inner and outer joins for interviews

Ruby is nice, check out the pragmatic programmers series, the ruby one is free on the net as far as I know. Its quite good, easy to pick up.. though jobwise I have seen few adverts looking for people with it.

All that said.. the language you know is not really that important for graduate work unless you can show something impressive

Me, Im in mainframe at the moment working with JCL.. something I doubt any grad has heard of.

DAVE_K

I'd second getting more database skills under you belt.
Then i'd reutilise the skills you have in java and C and transfer them to C#. If you've got the DB (SQL Server or Oracle) skills and .NET skills you're set and will have no problem getting work.

NeverSayDie

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but you might also take a look at source control systems, which aren't often covered on college courses, but are everyday tools in professional software development. Doesn't matter much which one you go for, but grab something like Subversion or CVS, and familiarise yourself with the general concepts - checking code in and out, versioning, merging, branching, etc. Debugging and automated build and test systems are also useful to know about.

And yeah, I'd also reccomend picking up some C# or other .NET tech, seems to be pretty popular at the moment. Basic web development, and database tech (ie, SQL and database design) will also come in useful sooner or later.

As was already mentioned, in commerical development, you spend a lot of time working with substantial amounts of other peoples' code, usually fixing it, adding to it, porting it, integrating it, rewriting it, etc. You won't always have access to the people who wrote it, or much documentation. Being able to navigate someone else's code, figure out what it does and how it does it, is another skill to have. Maybe download some code from the web, and have a go at following random parts of it.

satchmo

NeverSayDie wrote:

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but you might also take a look at source control systems, which aren't often covered on college courses, but are everyday tools in professional software development. Doesn't matter much which one you go for, but grab something like Subversion or CVS, and familiarise yourself with the general concepts - checking code in and out, versioning, merging, branching, etc.

Yeah this is a good point.. any decent sized project will use some form of source control, you'd do well to get comfortable with one (they're all very similar).

dazberry

There are a lot of aspects to software development that aren't actually writing code. Personally I think having some grasp of these principles is more important then knowing 10 languages. Its sort of like putting the why into the how.

Another important aspect is team work. Until you find yourself working on a bad team you'll never truely appreciate how important team work is. It only takes one person to drag down a whole team - make sure you're not that person.

Another area where I've seen developers (both graduate and experienced) fall down is in following instructions. If you're asked to do something a particular way - do it that way. Definitely if you know/think you know better make a case - but ultimately if you don't get your way - do it their way - there may well be good reason for it... and don't be sneaky - I've seen it backfire on people too many times.

Finally remember that not all companies are what they seem. Yes every company is the market leader (or will be) and every company has enterprise solutions that will change the world. Unfortunately those goals may well be far removed from the work and experience you need to be doing - or worse what they will get you to do (regardless of what they tell you). There is no silver bullet - you need to manage your career.

HTH (someone)

D.

NeverSayDie

OP, here's an article you may find interesting, it's a "lessons learned" type article from a professional developer:
http://www.codeproject.com/gen/work/standaloneprogrammer.asp

It's written from the perspective of a lone-wolf programmer in a company more so than a team, but nonetheless, it's pretty interesting, plenty to take out of it.

Khannie

The Corinthian wrote:

It's used as an alternative to Perl, which in turn is only used by net admins at this stage.

Not so at all. Knowing perl (or some other scripting language) makes life for progammers easier on a variety of fronts. My job is primarily c++ coding, but when it comes time to do tedious tasks involving files or the filesystem I always break out the perl. Sitting back and watching a script do a task that would have bored the ****e out of you for 2 hours is the purest of programming joys.

On the whole .NET thing: I haven't done MS specific coding in around 5 years now (used MFC for a while in my last job). What puts bread and butter on my table is knowing my way around in linux / unix and c++. The perl knowledge is also good in interviews. A differentiating factor I'd say. I had no trouble getting a job at graduation time or when I left my last job (which was my first out of college).

I've also done interviewing, and it's not language ability I was looking for, it was problem solving. Anyone (within reason) can learn a programming language, but not everyone is good at solving problems.

bonkey

Proffesional programmers, what do you know?

How to spell and/or use a spell-checker

cornbb

DaSilva wrote:

Do you guys know all of these things? I imagine it's quite a bit easier to learn a new language once you have learnt another fully.

Pretty much all professional programmers are required to learn on-the-fly. As long as you are any good at a few decent languages and are willing to learn you'll be fine. Being a good programmer requires a good knowledge of programming principles rather than knowing the syntax or the quirks of any individual language. I'm working for a small software outfit at the moment - we are using Objective C for Mac and only 1 out of 7 developers in the company had ever used the language before starting!

TabulaRasa

I would also have a read of a book called "The Pragmatic Programmer" by Andrew Hunt and David Thomas it is a good collection of thoughts on the practice of programming. It's a really easy read and you will find yourself re-reading bits of it.

Evil Phil

What's Objective C cornbb? I've always had an interest in learning it but that alone doesn't justify buying a Mac.

scojones

TabulaRasa wrote:

I would also have a read of a book called "The Pragmatic Programmer" by Andrew Hunt and David Thomas it is a good collection of thoughts on the practice of programming. It's a really easy read and you will find yourself re-reading bits of it.

Seconded. A must read for any developer. Should really be forced on students in software development courses.

The Corinthian

Khannie wrote:

Not so at all. Knowing perl (or some other scripting language) makes life for progammers easier on a variety of fronts.

I certainly don't disagree that knowing a scripting language will make life for progammers easier on a variety of fronts, only the choice of Perl. If you're starting out now you're better off learning a language which is more up to date or current, such as PHP or Python, rather than a language which is realistically only used by programmers who learned it when it was current and colleges.

Khannie

The Corinthian wrote:

If you're starting out now you're better off learning a language which is more up to date or current, such as PHP or Python

I agree to an extent. The sheer amount of perl libraries out there do still make it a good choice. Python does seem to be the real up-and-comer for general purpose scripting though. It's on my list of "look at" items.

PHP is a must for modern server side web coding though, definitely.

Colin Mac

To the OP, After the launguages you are studying at the moment, I'd recommend you move onto Python next, it's very good for graphics.

markf909

This is an interesting thread.

I have 4 years very solid experience in J2SE and C++ (ISO standard, not MFC) from the work carried out out in my PhD.
I also have used a lot of Python and Bash/Sed for setting up automated test harnesses for my software.

Furthermore I have also have experience in XSLT and the JAXP and Aspect Oriented Programming. I am also quite comfortable with CaML.

I feel that at this stage obviously, the core concepts are there and a new language/paradigm is something that can be learned quite quickly.

My real question is how industry views my experience and skills?
I have only recently completed my Viva, so I am at a junction, do I continue down the academic path or try my hand in industry.
A cursory look at the employment sites, shows a very large demand for Java developers (J2EE) but most seem to look for 3-4+ years industry experience which clearly I do not have.

Anyone got any advice/opinions?

BostonB

A lot of ads are posted by HR people and agencies and are a little "creative" with the truth. So the requirements are not always set in stone.

bonkey

Most places want someone with loads of experience, but generally don't want to pay for it, nor are they willing to wait the uncertain amount of time it often takes to find the right candidate with the right skills.

End result is that they are forced to "settle" for less than what they asked for. Strangely enough...what they settle for is often much closer to what they actually needed.

monosharp

DaSilva wrote:

I study Java, Visual Basic, and Assembly 80x85 in College. And in my free time I'm doing C. I picked C because it's very popular, and somewhere inbetween Assembly and Java in terms of language level. I like them all and have fun learning new stuff in each, (even VB despite the knocking it gets).

I'm not working in the big bad world, i was last yr but back at college again finishing off my degree.

My advice, take it or leave it and some people might disagree but anyways ...

Drop Visual Basic like that crazy ex that just WON'T leave you alone. I'm serious, do it for your studies but after that forget EVERYTHING you learned about VB. It might look good on a CV and you might get work out of it but it will only hurt your programming skills. I can't even count the number of bad habits and the laziness VB gave me. VB is a blight on this earth and why any college uses it baffles me. Fair enough you can get work with it but for a student to try to learn programming and be subjected to Visual Basic is just not right. You'll not only learn nothing from VB, you'll have to unlearn stuff to learn proper programming.

Your DEFINATELY going the right route with C, i can't stress that enough. Forget about other languages for the moment in your spare time, concentrate entirely on C and C++. I'm not saying other languages like python etc are bad, i actually REALLY like python. But for learning (and i'm still learning myself) C/C++ is the holy grail. When you know C and know it well, learning other languages* becomes MUCH easier.

* Note: Obvious exceptions are languages like PROLOG etc. But C will still be a HUGE help here. And anyways most of these other languages are next to useless. Die Prolog Die!

Seriously, i know what its like being a student and having OOP stuffed down your throat. (oop, what they don't teach you is that oop is NOT the best solution for all problems). You feel you need to know language x and language y is meant to rock etc etc . Ignore them, get a really good base in C.

edit: Opps, forgot to mention. I'm going to assume all your work and development has being on Windows. Its probably not really of much benefit to you for jobs etc in the majority of cases but install linux and learn your way around a real operating system. Learn about makefiles etc. You'll be better off for it.

monosharp

Ginger wrote:

I would start learning some of the .NET languages..

Anyone remember J++ ? :rolleyes:

No ?

If you know Java, C# is a non-issue. Don't get stuck in the Microsoft trap, good to know but don't base yourself on it.

maceocc2

What ye have to really remember is that if you can get to grips with at least one programming language in college you will probably get the hang of another very quickly for instance I did mainly Java, C++ and my personal favorite plain old C, started a design job about a year ago in which we use Perl and python.
So if I where you i'd have fun with Java while your in college and you should be able to pick up others as you go along.

Evil Phil

I've seen Java coders fix c# coders problems on this forum, and vice-versa. That's probably down to experience as well as the two languages being so similar.

If you're learning VB then learn C# instead. It does the same thing, all .Net languages do, but its skillset will transfer a lot easier plus it doesn't have any of the stigma left over from classic VB.

I do remember J++ in fact I actually evaluated it in one job but choose the Microsoft SDK for Java instead.

monosharp

Evil Phil wrote:

I do remember J++ in fact I actually evaluated it in one job but choose the Microsoft SDK for Java instead.

Fair enough, each to their own.

Evil Phil

I didn't say I remembered it fondly

Mutant_Fruit

Evil Phil wrote:

I've seen Java coders fix c# coders problems on this forum, and vice-versa. That's probably down to experience as well as the two languages being so similar.

Usually because it's a logic error in the program You can debug a logic error much more easily than a code error in a language you're not familiar with.

DaSilva

Tons of information here so far, is great. Someone mentioned installing and getting used too Linux, have done just that recently. Installed and started using Slackware, then decided to give Ubuntu a try. Finding things I really like about Linux, and lots of things I hate (i.e. every distro having its own idea of directory structure).

The more and more I learn these days the more I realise that I'm over the programming learning step, and into the API or Library learning step. It's fun learning though, as you can see some real productive results, but it's a monstrous task.

My question is, is that what you guys are talking about when you say "its easy to learn a language difficult to master it."? Learning the library's? Aside from learning the concept's of each language.

From the replies I'm seeing about what languages to learn, it seems clear and slightly disheartening that not only are there a monstrous amount of programming languages, but they are also used

Think for the immediate future the things I will look into are, Windows API, openGL or Directx, Linux API/Kernel, Python (purely for scripting for the moment) and PHP. Amongst the current areas which are, C, Java, Assembly.

I've kind of let VB slip, and by that I don't mean falling behind the class, I'm still a mile ahead, but the lecturer seems only interested at the moment in teaching us the WYSIWYG part of the IDE, which was fun when I was first learning programming but is now dull.

For some reason this year something woke up in me and I have a thirst for knowledge, glad I found programming as it's certainly not lacking in size.

p.s. Bonkey, I now use a spell checker

monosharp

DaSilva wrote:

Tons of information here so far, is great. Someone mentioned installing and getting used too Linux, have done just that recently. Installed and started using Slackware, then decided to give Ubuntu a try. Finding things I really like about Linux, and lots of things I hate (i.e. every distro having its own idea of directory structure).

Even though i started off in Linux with slackware, i wouldn't recommend it to any beginners unless your REALLY interested in your system and seeing how it all works. And i mean REALLY interested.

What do you mean by every distro having its own directory structure ? Linux follows the Unix directory structure, i only know of one distro that doesn't.

DaSilva

monosharp wrote:

Even though i started off in Linux with slackware, i wouldn't recommend it to any beginners unless your REALLY interested in your system and seeing how it all works. And i mean REALLY interested.

Slack mightn't have been the best choice, I am really interested in how it works though. I didn't know much about different distributions, so I choose slack because I heard it wasn't dumbed down. When I first installed it, I hadn't a clue what I was doing, by the end of the installation I had learned a good bit. Decided to give Ubuntu a go now, and it's nice, but not for me, as I installed Linux, to learn Linux. Ubuntu seems to be more aimed at getting things done, if you will.

monosharp wrote:

What do you mean by every distro having its own directory structure ? Linux follows the Unix directory structure, i only know of one distro that doesn't.

My bad wording on that one. I can't remember any specific examples, but what I was trying to say was, certain things were different, for example, this probably isn't the case, but fstab.conf would be in a different folder on Slack as it was on Ubuntu.

Robin Parmar

There's a lot more to being a professional programmer than picking a language or six. This thread has encouraged me to write up my thoughts in an article , which I hope encourages further comment.

jimmycrackcorm

amen wrote:

ohh languages that I know
PL/1, DB2, JCL, PASCAL, TURBO PASCAL, C, C++,VB, VB.NET, C#, ASP, ASP.NET,
SQL, JScript, JAVA(a bit), PERL(okish), PHP, Some assemebly 8086 thats about it

When I see this stuff on incoming Cv's I think of that old phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none".

It really boils down to two paths Java or dot net and associated web parts such as asp.net for .NET.

I would forget about doing C/C++. Only proprietary / technical development is done now in C. At this stage I'd almost lump it in the same category as Cobol - still an important language with a lot of development going on but it won't count for much in your career choice availability in 15-20 years time.

amen

you know you could be right but since I've been working as a programmer for 14 years I've bound to have worked in some different environments

For that vast majority of jobs you don't have to be a super duper expert master knowing every in and out of the language. As long you know a reasonably 70-80% and know where to find out the other info you should be fine.

Knowing other languges never hurt at least it shows you can learn and are adaptable. Some programmers get stuck doing C++ for 20 years, don't know anything about the internet, database programming, gui design etc and these are the so called masters.

If you look at the languages listed you might see a progression from MainFrame to MidRange to Windows learning as I went.

jimmycrackcorm

amen wrote:

you know you could be right but since I've been working as a programmer for 14 years I've bound to have worked in some different environments

For that vast majority of jobs you don't have to be a super duper expert master knowing every in and out of the language. As long you know a reasonably 70-80% and know where to find out the other info you should be fine.

Knowing other languges never hurt at least it shows you can learn and are adaptable. Some programmers get stuck doing C++ for 20 years, don't know anything about the internet, database programming, gui design etc and these are the so called masters.

If you look at the languages listed you might see a progression from MainFrame to MidRange to Windows learning as I went.

All due respect. I know where you're coming from as I'll have 20 years under my own belt this year. 20 years ago I used to hand code motorola 6502 assembly directly into hex, no assembler, no debugger. But I doubt if that would be any use on my C.V. now. Somewhere along the line is 8 years of C and C++ which is why I'd shy away from recommending it now - too much time spent making sure code works as opposed to making sure functionality works.

Looking at job postings, they are almost always linked to very specific requirements so it's best to pick a mainstream development area and channel a speciality in a specific industry knowledge.