2/4NL Deep

spectre

Ok fairly standard situation. Villain is decent 22/14/1.94. We generally stay out of eachother's way when on the same table.

Villain has $837.29, I cover.

I open for 14 UTG with KK. Villain makes it 50 to go from the button. His range here is very narrow in my opinion, probably QQ+ and AK. I just call (comments??)

Flop is a horn inducing
Kd 7h 2c

What is my plan?

sikes

check/call the flop.

crai the turn.

if his range is what you say it is, QQ will check the turn then you value bet river

AK and AA will almost always continue the turn.

robinlacey

bet
just get some money in there as soon as you can

RasTa

I don't think there is any point in checking the flop given the action pre flop and the range he puts him on.

Build up the pot, it's Christmas(hopefully)

Sparky1808

Hmm... check the flop to see what his action of plan is, if he checks, then it will become a tad more complicated, but no doubt hes going to lead out for $32+ plus on this flop, so just smooth call.

Then check the turn if there is no danger still ....and see what he does if he bets - go over the top of his raise, and hopefully he'll be holding AK+ .....if he checks the turn too, then you'll just have to throw in a milk me bet on the river for just between quarter of the pot $and$ half of the pot.

Merrrrrry Christmas!

BigCityBanker

I think I prefer to lead out here for c. 1/2 pot. If he is a good player and you guys have a history you can expect him to fold QQ here to anybet. Cest la vie. Hopefully he has AK.

If this turns into a BB then you are in an internet cafe typing this as you will have made sh1t of your laptop against the wall.

sikes

What will he put us on calling his raise preflop?

A check call on the flop looks like 1010-QQ, maybe AK. So if he has AK/AA he is leading on on the turn a lot. Let him hang himself, no need to be the agressor in this hand when you know he has a monster.

sikes

BigCityBanker wrote:

I think I prefer to lead out here for c. 1/2 pot. If he is a good player and you guys have a history you can expect him to fold QQ here to anybet. Cest la vie. Hopefully he has AK.

he is betting every hand in his range. why lead?

spectre

sikes wrote:

check/call the flop.

crai the turn.

We are over 200 BB deep. Can we expect him to call the CRAI with AA/AK assuming the turn doesn't scare him?

Goodluck2me

we bet out because all of his range either call or raise us. he might call us down with QQ or raise us with AA/AK. it also disguises our hand strength imo. i like lead the flop, if he raises then call. open push turn, i think we get called by ak/aa every time.

ocallagh

push

ocallagh

ps: if u check call that flop and value bet the river he might even fold AK or AA! its just too strong a line.

BigCityBanker

ocallagh wrote:

push

Interesting line - Are you hoping he has AA / AK and cant lay it down? And by pushing you hope he puts you on AK rather than KK. Is this the best line to get paid against this opponent?

valor

Why do you think his range is so tight preflop? I would imagine a 22/14's button 3 betting range is pretty wide, especially 200bb deep

I would 4 bet preflop, given 200bb stacks, even if I thought your range was accurate.

On the flop - if he is any good he will be checking entire range of hands alot of the time, apart from total air, so I like a lead out. I think I would lead all 3 streets strongly here

I'm not sure how I would respond to a raise
If as you say, you play fairly straighforward against each other, I would probably call and bet the next street but I think a shove/3bet [of a size that could be a bluff] wouldnt' be too bad because WHO plays top set that fast?

sikes

ocallagh wrote:

ps: if u check call that flop and value bet the river he might even fold AK or AA! its just too strong a line.

becuase the board is so dry, there is a good chance he will check behind on the turn. however i would imagine AK and AA will call a value bet on the river.

dont think pushing is good, as said before, there are no draws out there to represent. (assuming your being semi serious, which i doubt)

Samba

ocallagh wrote:

push

lol

valor

About shoving over a raise - he will not be raising any hands here for value if he is any good - so if you think he is obviously dont 3 bet him when he raises.
either call and check the next street or lead it

sikes

valor wrote:

check the next street or lead it

how about open folding it?

ocallagh

BigCityBanker wrote:

Interesting line - Are you hoping he has AA / AK and cant lay it down? And by pushing you hope he puts you on AK rather than KK. Is this the best line to get paid against this opponent?

Maybe not. If he has a lot of respect for spectre its not the best way to play it, but against a lot of donks (on the AK/AA/QQ range) i might play it this way.

I think your line is best against this opponent. I might bet the flop. Probably a large bet. If he flat calls flop I definitely lead the turn again, slightly smaller bet on the turn though.... If he raises the flop I just call because we have two stgreets to get it in, but if he waits till the turn or river to raise I push.

valor

I dont get it..is that sarcasm because checking or leading are the only options we have?

valor

FWIW I left out "depending on the card"..

sikes

that makes a difference

robinlacey

reasons to bet:
1-it actually looks weaker than check calling and trying to get some money in later on will look
2-you're 200bbs deep,its important that you get some money in there right away,in a 3 bet pot QQ and JJ will check behind the flop a lot

of course this assumes you play well (ie agressively) enough the rest of the time for him to suspect you might have nothing or be trying to get to showdown with a marginal hand,at least at some stage in the hand

spectre

valor wrote:

Why do you think his range is so tight preflop? I would imagine a 22/14's button 3 betting range is pretty wide, especially 200bb deep

I would 4 bet preflop, given 200bb stacks, even if I thought your range was accurate.

I've played a lot of hands with him. He will respect my UTG raise and only re-raise with premium. I'm not mad about 3-betting as I am clealy telegraphing my hand as AA/KK. As I said, we normally don't go to war against eachother.

valor

Do you not want to 4 bet because you think he will fold everything but AA or the other KK or because you think he will be able to define your hand very well because of it? or both?

sikes

spectre wrote:

We are over 200 BB deep. Can we expect him to call the CRAI with AA/AK assuming the turn doesn't scare him?

I think he will check behind on the turn with AK and AA alot because its such a dry board, and calling a reraise UTG, ur hand stinks of strength so I dont think we will get to CRAI the turn much, especially if he is a solid player. So the line i gave will hardly ever have the chance to happen.

What do you think your range is to him?

I would imagine against this opponent is going to be very difficult to get much money in the centre

sikes

robinlacey wrote:

reasons to bet:
1-it actually looks weaker than check calling and trying to get some money in later on will look
2-you're 200bbs deep,its important that you get some money in there right away,in a 3 bet pot QQ and JJ will check behind the flop a lot

of course this assumes you play well (ie agressively) enough the rest of the time for him to suspect you might have nothing or be trying to get to showdown with a marginal hand,at least at some stage in the hand

I would agree with this usually, but here we are dealing with two very tight ranges on a very dry board with oppoents who stay out of eachothers way.

No matter when we raise or lead, we are looking ridiciously strong in this hand.

spectre

valor wrote:

Do you not want to 4 bet because you think he will fold everything but AA or the other KK or because you think he will be able to define your hand very well because of it? or both?

both

spectre

sikes wrote:

What do you think your range is to him?

Any pocket pair, AK

sikes

spectre wrote:

What do you think your range is to him?

Any pocket pair, AK

really? You loose goose.

Then he might bet the turn for value.

Anyway I have added enough noise to this thread for now.

Hectorjelly

if you check raise the flop big I dont think AK or AA are going anywhere

opr

Hectorjelly wrote:

if you check raise the flop big I dont think AK or AA are going anywhere

I don't get this ?

Betting out we deguise our hand better and hopefully we get AK and AA to reraise on the flop by C/R surely we are giving AK and AA the best chance to get away from the hand ?

Opr

spectre

I lead the flop for 64, too small I know. Villain raises to 149. I call.

Turn(404)
Js
I check, he bets 250, I shove, he stacks off with AA.

I'm still not very happy with my line, I took his stack but only because villain played his hand badly. I'm still unsure if 3-betting the flop or check-raising the flop is best though.

opr

spectre wrote:

I lead the flop for 64, too small I know. Villain raises to 149. I call.

Turn(404)
Js
I check, he bets 250, I shove, he stacks off with AA.

I'm still not very happy with my line, I took his stack but only because villain played his hand badly. I'm still unsure if 3-betting the flop or check-raising the flop is best though.

How is C/R this flop a good line ? ..... am i missing something here !!!

Don't mind the weak continuation bet on the flop it incourages villian to raise. I think you played the hand pretty well.

Opr

opr

Oh and against most good players if you have been playing reasonably tight they will check behind on this flop.
The only hand they are ahead of and were it makes sense to bet would be against AK if they were to bet generally they lose hands like QQ and JJ which they dont want as they may be able to take some money later on in the hand by checking the flop. And if they have 77 or more likely KK we obviously don't want to bet AA.

So if you check on the flop your giving the villian the option to check behind making it very hard to stack him on the two remaining streets.

Honestly i can't see any reason for checking this flop from any point of view.

Opr

Hectorjelly

opr wrote:

I don't get this ?

Betting out we deguise our hand better and hopefully we get AK and AA to reraise on the flop by C/R surely we are giving AK and AA the best chance to get away from the hand ?

Opr

The guy reraised preflop, there is no way he is folding either AA or AK on that board. Think about it, some guy raises utg, you reraise with AA. THe flop is Kxx and he check rasies you massively, not some gay minraise. It looks like you have AK.

I prefer a chk raise here for a number of reasons, first he might not have a great hand so it gets a cb out of him. Secondly if we check raise we actually give AA no room for manuevre, if he continues with the hand all the money is going in right now.

If this player was anyway decent at all he would of just called the flop bet, checked behind on the turn and then called a river bet. That weak lead on the flop, or any lead whatsover is real bad imo. A year ago is disguised your hand, now if any decent player leads a dry board then gives a lot of action he always has a set. Poker is amuch more subtle game than people give it credit for, leading sets in many situations is the best play, but not always.

Also this thread is kind of silly because when theres a reraise preflop and 2 players have AA + KK on a non threatening board the money is going to usualy find a way to get in.

opr

Hectorjelly wrote:

The guy reraised preflop, there is no way he is folding either AA or AK on that board. Think about it, some guy raises utg, you reraise with AA. THe flop is Kxx and he check rasies you massively, not some gay minraise. It looks like you have AK.

Let me play devils advocate and i have AA in this spot - When someone check-raises me on that board what do they think i have that is going to be able to call a C/R that they beat with AK ?

Oh and i am assuming villian has AA to even make this a decision i think AK will fold most of the time to a check raise on this board.

Hectorjelly wrote:

I prefer a chk raise here for a number of reasons, first he might not have a great hand so it gets a cb out of him. Secondly if we check raise we actually give AA no room for manuevre, if he continues with the hand all the money is going in right now.

Why wouldn't he just check behind ?

Hectorjelly wrote:

If this player was anyway decent at all he would of just called the flop bet, checked behind on the turn and then called a river bet. That weak lead on the flop, or any lead whatsover is real bad imo.

Agreed. If i am called on the flop, i lead the turn and push the river.

Hectorjelly wrote:

A year ago it disguised your hand, now if any decent player leads a dry board then gives a lot of action he always has a set.

This may be true but how many players put down AA. We lead for various reasons not just to disguise our hand....... one of the main ones is to get money into the pot !! NOW !!

Hectorjelly wrote:

Also this thread is kind of silly because when theres a reraise preflop and 2 players have AA + KK on a non threatening board the money is going to usualy find a way to get in.

Agreed.

Hectorjelly

opr wrote:

Let me play devils advocate and i have AA in this spot - When someone check-raises me on that board what do they think i have that is going to be able to call a C/R that they beat with AK ?

I dont think AK folds on this board. Logically it makes no sense to fold AK but call with AA, they are basically the same strength. I think very few players fold here unless villain is a total nit and both players are really tight and really bad.

RoundTower

minor point maybe but I think some players will stack off here with AA and not with AK. It makes sense, too, because AK is a big part of your range for playing a big pot here.

i.e. if your range is AK and sets, AA is almost a coinflip, but AK is crushed.

Hectorjelly

You may be right, but I do remember a lot of tight players stacking off to me in simlair situations (and sometimes calling with the best hand!) with both AK and AA.

fuzzbox

I like a check raise too, for all the reasons HJ states. I like HJs line.

ocallagh

The only argument I can see for check raising is to (possibly) get one extra bet out of QQ. If you have been playing a maniac aggro game, 50/30 etc then check raising might not be too bad..

But by check raising you take value away from the times he has AA and AK. IMO AA will HATE getting check raised on that board. Especially when your range is so tight. And AK will fold a lot of the time.

If you bet the flop it looks somewhat standard, it looks like a blocking bet a lot of the time. It does not reveal the true strength of your hand in the same way check raising does. Your range still includes hands that AK/AA crush. It also takes control away from the pre-flop agressor which pisses a lot of people off... It means he will fold QQ 90% of the time, but for him to regain that control you will be raised an awful lot of the time by AK and AA(and the very seldom time by a stubborn QQ). Anyway, my point is it is much easier to stack him when he holds AA and especially AK by playing this way.

opr

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think AK folds on this board. Logically it makes no sense to fold AK but call with AA, they are basically the same strength. I think very few players fold here unless villain is a total nit and both players are really tight and really bad.

I just think if i am sitting thier with AK and someone C/R me on that board i have to ask myself the question ..... what C/R me that i am beating ... Set , AA all have me crushed so i am calling for a chop and will fold most of the time and because AK is a huge part of villians range i think this is very bad.

Nial makes this and many other good points above on why i just don't think C/R is good play here.

Opr

valor

if this guy is a bad player then check raise a good line
against a good player i dont like it

valor

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8459832&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

spectre

valor wrote:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8459832&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

LOL, he's right, I'm a standard run of the mill TAG!

Hectorjelly

The guy raised a weak lead and then stacked off on the turn. This is about the most obvious line to take with a set that there can be but he fell for it, do you really think the guy is going to fold to a check raise?

valor

no, this guy sucks and a check raise would have worked against him

but against a good player i dont think it would

TacT

check/call and shove the turn, just for fun

fuzzbox

valor wrote:

no, this guy sucks and a check raise would have worked against him

but against a good player i dont think it would

Nothing will work against a good player.
You simply have to try to make the max you can, but he should not stack off freely here with AA or AK

But I still think C/R has the best chances of success, and gets (maybe) a bet against QQ/JJ

Hectorjelly

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8459832&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

looks like this is the other side of the story