Garda Searches

antodeco

Hi Folks,

Just wondering what the legality of a Garda searching your car is? Do they need an court order or can they simply "pull you over and search you car"?

Thanks

Our man in Havana

They need no warrant to search a car. They can use their powers under the misuse of drugs act to search without any warrant.

antodeco

Thanks for the reply. Two of my mates got searched in their cars, including the engine recently. It was totally unjustified. They bought drive nice cars, one a BMW X5 and the other a 330i. The only reason I can think of is that they are bought in their mid 20's. Kind of waste of man power if you ask me searching them.

Trojan911

Bond-007 wrote:

They need no warrant to search a car. They can use their powers under the misuse of drugs act to search without any warrant.

However, they must have reasonable grounds to suspect that drugs are or have been in existence in the vehicle. They cannot pull you over and declare they are searching the vehicle under the Misuse of Drugs Act without grounds first. That is known in the trade as a fishing expedition or in legal terms, an unlawful search.

For example, your vehicle has been pulled over and the officer pokes his/her head by the open window and smells a recent spliff, or sees the reminants of a roll up in the footwell, there they have grounds to search you or the vehicle. If none of the above apply then there is no cause or grounds to search. These are some examples & each case differs.

An officer can build his/her grounds to search by the Q's & A's they ask and receive.


TJ911...

rubadub

Trojan911 wrote:

However, they must have reasonable grounds to suspect that drugs are or have been in exsistance in the vehicle.

That is true but a total misnomer. You said it yourself, if they simply say they smelt drugs they can search, so therefore they can search anybody and call imaginary smells "reasonable grounds".

It is the same for public disorder, they can say anything you were doing was disorder

Trojan911

rubadub wrote:

That is true but a total misnomer. You said it yourself, if they simply say they smelt drugs they can search, so therefore they can search anybody and call imaginary smells "reasonable grounds".

It is the same for public disorder, they can say anything you were doing was disorder

That is also, in my opinion, sadly true, however that is where one can decide if they wish to take it further through a complaints proceedure / solicitor etc. If, for example, I was stopped and my car or myself was searched under the Misuse of Drugs Act then I would know the officer was acting unlawfully as I don't dabble. Therefore there is an enormous abuse of authority by the officers concerned.


TJ911...

Thirdfox

Playing devil's advocate here (not personally questioning your integrity TJ911!) - what if you acted in a way that led the police to believe you had drugs... you may know that you don't do illegal drugs but s/he doesn't...

I would think that it's very difficult to challenge a garda on this issue.

joebhoy1916

He should of locked all the doors when getting out of the car

If they see drugs or reason to believe there are drug's (smell of drugs, seen blunts in the ash tray) etc etc they can search.

They would have a hard time searching if the doors were locked I belive they need a warrant to take your car or to open it.

When ever you get pulled by the garda if it's for speeding dont admit to it you dont have to talk to the garda when they stop you this give's them the right's because in fact you are breaking your right's.

Our man in Havana

joebhoy1916 wrote:

When ever you get pulled by the garda if it's for speeding dont admit to it

Correct.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

you dont have to talk to the garda when they stop you .

That would be very unwise and will lead to instant arrest. You are obliged to provide certain statutory information on demand to a Garda.

joebhoy1916

Well I dont mean dont talk to them just dont be filling them info that they can use against you.

When they pull you over in a car pull the window down a small bit dont put it right down unless he ask's you.

BMW though is a sign of drug dealer dont ask me why they just think that. A drug's search they will search anywhere.

Did he ask on what ground's they had to search his car? I would of locked it when I got out. If the garda pull you over and say can ye please step out of the car if you lock it the guards cant just open it where as if you leave it open they have a right to search it. Say if your mate's locked there car and the garda searched it and found say a nine bar (9 ounce's) of smoke for the no brainers the judge would throw the case out

Could be wrong though but I think Im right.

The guards usually ask can they search your car, your mate's hardly said yeah?

Trojan911

Thirdfox wrote:

what if you acted in a way that led the police to believe you had drugs... you may know that you don't do illegal drugs but s/he doesn't...I would think that it's very difficult to challenge a garda on this issue.

Fair comment, there are people out there that draw attention to themselves by whatever means. I am talking of a straightforward stop, say coming home from work late at night, the officer will/should be able to determine as to what path he/she is going to take with their initial Q's & A's. Officers can run your details through the pulse system to do background checks to see if there are any drug hits/convictions etc. This could help them determine as to whether you are an abuser or not

For example, I was recently stopped at a check point at midnight, it was a drink drive checkpoint. However, I was on my way back from a night shoot & was dressed accordingly, with a covered shotgun on the back seat. I answered the officers questions and was allowed to drive on without delay & providing a breath test. The officer obviously used his powers correctly and didn't abuse them. He could have requested a breath test & I would have obliged but he determined I was out shooting and it was pointless bagging me.


TJ911...

seamus

joebhoy1916 wrote:

He should of locked all the doors when getting out of the car

If they see drugs or reason to believe there are drug's (smell of drugs, seen blunts in the ash tray) etc etc they can search.

They would have a hard time searching if the doors were locked I belive they need a warrant to take your car or to open it.

If a Garda wishes to perform a search on your person or vehicle, they must ask your permission first. To the best of my knowledge, if you refuse this search, this can constitute reasonable grounds under the Misuse of Drugs Act to perform a search without your permission.

Many people may not like that, but personally I have no problem with it. The Garda are bogged down enough by bureacracy and red tape without having to get a warrant to search everyone and their vehicles. Imagine pulling over a drug dealer, having to go off and get a warrant to search his vehicle, only to come back and the vehicle has been emptied out and/or disposed of. "Sorry Gard, some little knacker robbed me car five minutes after you stopped me".

It's a minor relinquishing of some fairly inconsequential rights for the greater good IMO.

Trojan911

seamus wrote:

If a Garda wishes to perform a search on your person or vehicle, they must ask your permission first. To the best of my knowledge, if you refuse this search, this can constitute reasonable grounds under the Misuse of Drugs Act to perform a search without your permission.

No, that is known as a fishing expedition i.e. we are going to search your car until we find something illegal. Not allowed & unlawful. Officers need reasonable grounds to search you or your vehicle. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y1977S23.html


TJ911...

joebhoy1916

The guards cant open the car if it's locked can they.

The guards dont need a warrant but if they pull you over and you say something or whatever they could search it's just all **** to be honest the way it works.

The fact is guards are above the law and do whatever they want.

Kinda like if the guards come to your house and the front door is open they have a right to go in.

If your mates had something in the car or not tell them anymore when they get out of there car lock it. If he has nothing in his car he has nothing to hide from locking it

Overheal

Look, if you're silly enough to keep naughty things in your car, then I would hope you are pretty James Bond about it. Me? I don't drive.

Turner

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Kinda like if the guards come to your house and the front door is open they have a right to go in.

No they dont. If they are there for a reason ie to search for drugs, they need a warrant to enter your house. Otherwise any substances found in your house could not be used as evidence.

If the gardai are called to your house by your neighbours because they have observed two dodgy characters looking in your windows, and on arrival find your front door open. They have no right to enter your house, but they will obviously enter expecting to find burglars inside.

Would you rather they dont enter because they technically dont have the right to go inside. After they caught two burglars in your bedroom would you prosecute the gardai for trespassing/burglary?

civdef

Is there a power to enter a premises without warrant in order to arrest someone? (The hot persuit scenario).

Alternatively, does the common law power to enter a premises to protect life or limb exist here?

seamus

civdef wrote:

Is there a power to enter a premises without warrant in order to arrest someone?

I have some hazy memory of that question appearing a thread before, and the answer being, "Yes, if the Gardai know that the person to be arrested is in the house (i.e. if they saw them entering or can see them in the house)".

Our man in Havana

AFAIK they can come in and a look around for said person if it is the persons normal residence.

Turner

civdef wrote:

Is there a power to enter a premises without warrant in order to arrest someone? (The hot persuit scenario).

Alternatively, does the common law power to enter a premises to protect life or limb exist here?

Yes but only for an arrestable offence (one that carrys 5yrs or more of a penalty)

You (Gardai) can enter (by force) if....

-he normally lives there
-you saw him go in
-you have permission of the owner or somebody who you think is the owner
-you feel that before a search warrant can be obtained he might commit another arrestable offence.
-you feel that before a search warrant can be obtained he might escape.

All contained in the Criminal LawAct 1997.


As for entering a premises to protect life and limb. As long as you can defend your actions the state would most probably cover you if you are on duty.

Scenario.. called to a domestic incident by a neighbour who has heard shouting and loud crashing. Husband opens the door and says all is ok. Garda asks to speak to the mans wife but the man refuses and slams the door. Garda kicks in door and restrains husband (contravening all the mans human and constitutional rights) Gardai discovers wife unconscious upstairs bleeding heavilly on the verge of death.

I presume the man could take a case against the state and win. The state covering the costs on behalf of the Garda.

Scenario 2. Elderly persons emergency alarm activated, alarm company tries to make contact with elderly person. Gets no response so contacts gardai. Gardai respond to the address and get no answer from door and cannot see anybody inside. The Gardai will put in the door or gain entry by smashing a window (tresspassing/criminal damage). In the meantime the elderly person comes home from shopping. Again the state would cover any costs for damage etc etc.

civdef

Very interesting, thanks.

On the second part, from what I dimly recollect of English law, there is a common law power to enter a building to save life or limb, so over there, in the scenarios mentioned, the officer or the state wouldn't be liable for damages because they acted lawfully.

Your second scenario, is one that happens very frequently, neighbour rings, hasn't seen old Mr. Jones out and about for a while, officers call to house, get no response from doorbell so force entry - often finding that Mr. Jones has shuffled off this mortal coil some time ago and has become home to a colony of bluebottles. Again, the damage caused would be considered lawful.

This power has been occasionally abused - "I heard what I understood to be a person screaming inside the building - I formed the opinion that there was a person at risk of life or limb inside so I forced entry to investigate, and lo and behold a I found a load of stolen bicycles - it turned out there was no person inside the building and the scream may have emanated from a television set". As the initial entry is lawful (once the court accepts the officer's story), the evidence found can be usable.


It leads to a more general question, has "common law" generally diverged much in Ireland from it's ancestor?

Turner

civdef wrote:

This power has been occasionally abused - "I heard what I understood to be a person screaming inside the building - I formed the opinion that there was a person at risk of life or limb inside so I forced entry to investigate, and lo and behold a I found a load of stolen bicycles - it turned out there was no person inside the building and the scream may have emanated from a television set". As the initial entry is lawful (once the court accepts the officer's story), the evidence found can be usable.

Search warrants are very easy to get. Two minutes with a judge outlining your suspicions and reasons for applying for one. Swear this information and you will get one.

There would be no need to make up a life or death story so you could put in the door and find all the stolen goodies

Trojan911

civdef wrote:

On the second part, from what I dimly recollect of English law, there is a common law power to enter a building to save life or limb, so over there, in the scenarios mentioned, the officer or the state wouldn't be liable for damages because they acted lawfully.

Civ,

That comes under Sec17 Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and damage to property can be justified once it was exercised correctly. The police will normally pick up the tab.


TJ911...

joebhoy1916

Chief--- wrote:

No they dont. If they are there for a reason ie to search for drugs, they need a warrant to enter your house. Otherwise any substances found in your house could not be used as evidence.

Yes they can. I wasnt saying if the guards are coming for a drug search they dont need warrant Im just saying if they came to your house if the door was open they can enter.

Say if your having a house party and the front door is open the guards walk in and there is an ounce of cocaine on the table are you saying to me the judge would throw the case out :rolleyes:

And to answer your question yes I would not that it would do any good.

We all know the guards are above the law..

civdef wrote:

On the second part, from what I dimly recollect of English law, there is a common law power to enter a building to save life or limb, so over there, in the scenarios mentioned, the officer or the state wouldn't be liable for damages because they acted lawfully.

Are you asking if the guards raid your house and find nothing they have to pay for the damage? If you are then you must be joking.

Turner

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Yes they can. I wasnt saying if the guards are coming for a drug search they dont need warrant Im just saying if they came to your house if the door was open they can enter.

Say if your having a house party and the front door is open the guards walk in and there is an ounce of cocaine on the table are you saying to me the judge would throw the case out :rolleyes:

Unless the gardai are invited in or given permission by somebody who they think is the owner/occupier they cannot enter without a warrant.

Check out the....

Constitution of Ireland Article 40
5.The dwelling of every citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

And to answer your question yes I would not that it would do any good.

We all know the guards are above the law..

They know alot about the law alright and can use it to their advantage. They have to be very careful how they use it.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Are you asking if the guards raid your house and find nothing they have to pay for the damage? If you are then you must be joking.

Of course they have to pay for the damage. If they find 1,000,000 worth of cocaine they still cannot leave your house until it is secure and the damage repaired. And it is not the Gardai who pay for it, its the state with money fro the Exchequer.

Joebhoy1916 your advice here isnt the best and i presume you have had some bad experiences with the Gardai and drugs. (talk of nine bars and drugs searches)

Anything got to do with you being a proud Irish republican??? (only going by your name and signature) I see your location is "growing weed in your attic" :rolleyes: so maybe thats where your experiences have come from.

joebhoy1916

Well Ive had a few run ins aint going to deny that.

Yes I know thte state pay for it but I thought you meant the guarda themselves pay for it.

Also two time's before I had mate's In my house one time I was up stairs came down and two guards were In my house snopping aroung (looking places they shouldnt of been) that aint no joke, I said what were they doing In my house they said one of the guy's let them In which wasnt true he left the house and left the front door open. The two guards just walked In and made there point to me that they had a right to enter a house if the front door was open to make sure the house wasnt been robbed. Im not talking about they can raid you without a warrant.

Oh please because I know what a nine bar is Im a scumbag right. We all didn't grow up In a fancy house.

And no my house was never raided.

Overheal

How long was the door left open? Seems like an abuse of a loophole really; but being Devil's advocate you can't really blame them for seizing the opportunity...I suggest next time you get one of those Hydraulic door closers...or afriend who isn't an eejit

the big cheese 01

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108 this link has alot of useful info regarding this topic

Max Power1

the big cheese 01 wrote: »

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108 this link has alot of useful info regarding this topic

may have been useful 3 years ago....

the big cheese 01

Max Power1 wrote: »

may have been useful 3 years ago....

just joined today........better late than never:D

censuspro

It's interesting how people who maintain that the Gardai don't do enough to protect citizens and enfore the law but in the same breath they show their reluctance to them more powers to enforce the law.

As far as the OP is concerned, 99% of the time people who have their car searched by the Gardai is for a good reason or probable cause. People on their way to mass on a sunday morning don't get stopped and searched by Gardai.

the big cheese 01

As far as the OP is concerned, 99% of the time people who have their car searched by the Gardai is for a good reason or probable cause. People on their way to mass on a sunday morning don't get stopped and searched by Gardai.[/QUOTE]

i am a young male and like to drive late at night. do you think that is reasonable grounds for a garda to stop and search me?

it is my belife that as a citizen of a free country, were ther is no curfew, that it shouldnt matter at all wat time i decide to drive on a public road.
and to think that i am up to no good just because im a young lad is predjuice.

i drive safely and consideratly. but i am stopped from going about my private business, and seached reguarly enough( apprx once a month)

i do not drink or take drugs( wich includes possesing drugs) so cannot help feel somewhat harassed. so i use my constitutional rights to prevent me from being bullied:cool:

seamus

the big cheese 01 wrote: »

i am a young male and like to drive late at night. do you think that is reasonable grounds for a garda to stop and search me?

Yes, because by and large young men who drive late at night are involved in anti-social behaviour. That can be as simple as making too much noise with your vehicle or as much as being involved in dealing drugs.

Either way you've slotted yourself into a stereotype which, regardless of whether or not you're doing anything wrong, is not without its factual basis.

Treating every demographic as equal is a noble ideal, but in reality social profiling is a more effective way of targetting problem areas. It's when that social profiling is applied unfairly (such as on the basis of the colour of your skin) that this is a problem. Otherwise, we should be focussing our efforts on those categories of people prone to law-breaking.

For example - do you think there should be the same amount of Gardai patrolling Finglas and Dalkey? Surely more Gardai being placed in Finglas is showing prejudice against the citizens of that area?

MagicSean

the big cheese 01 wrote: »

just joined today........better late than never:D

Your first day and you post something from indymedia that is more akin to horse manure than good advice. You'd be crazy to follow it. Completely ignores common law, judges rules and common decency. It contains so many inaccuracies and misinterpretations of the law that it would be better read as a what not to do.

In relation to the original post. The power to search was altered in the 1984 Act to include an offence of obstruction which would include locking your car.

darragh666

the big cheese 01 wrote: »

i am a young male and like to drive late at night. do you think that is reasonable grounds for a garda to stop and search me?

Dont worry you'll grow out of the demographic.

the big cheese 01

seamus and k mac are both right,
sterotyping might help bring down rates, but at the same time, in my opinion it is unfair.

and tht link i posted, i never claimed to be gospel, and i never advised anyone on following it. i mearly presented it as a peice of information relative to the topic at hand

censuspro

the big cheese 01 wrote: »

seamus and k mac are both right,
sterotyping might help bring down rates, but at the same time, in my opinion it is unfair.

and tht link i posted, i never claimed to be gospel, and i never advised anyone on following it. i mearly presented it as a peice of information relative to the topic at hand

Unfortunately life tends to unfair. If being stopped by the Gardai when you have nothing to hide is the worst of your problems then you should consider yourself lucky.

stepperupper

What's the story with land? Are gardaí allowed to search you fields without a warrant? What about your front or back garden?

234

The case law states that while you land is not inviolable, as your dwelling is, the gardai do need permission to come onto it. Unless there is evidence to the contrary there is an implied permission for gardai to enter onto your land to carry out their duty. You would need to put up signs or tell them specifically to revoke this implied permission. They can also affect an arrest through non-violent trespass.

MeKnowNothing

censuspro wrote: »

Unfortunately life tends to unfair. If being stopped by the Gardai when you have nothing to hide is the worst of your problems then you should consider yourself lucky.

When it happens few times a week though it can be a pain in the rectum! The Garda here in Ballyfermot go through your phone reading your messages and all. Why? Because were young and drive nice cars? Ive worked since i left school after my leaving cert at 18 to afford to buy my nice golf or audi or what ever i drive at time of said "abuse". Im from Ballyfermot, a lower class area so i must be selling drugs or doing something wrong. One word "discrimination". Bullied as kids were we lads?? Peace out!

Contra Proferentem

censuspro wrote: »

It's interesting how people who maintain that the Gardai don't do enough to protect citizens and enfore the law but in the same breath they show their reluctance to them more powers to enforce the law.

As far as the OP is concerned, 99% of the time people who have their car searched by the Gardai is for a good reason or probable cause. People on their way to mass on a sunday morning don't get stopped and searched by Gardai.

Well you see that's a thing known as a balance between police powers and individual rights. You can't give any one group too much power, as it's well recorded that power corrupts.

It's just one of the many contradictions which are inherent in society, the majority of people want action but they don't trust those they empower to carry it out, and if previous tribunals are anything to go by, maybe they're right.

Sometimes a lot of people on the Legal Discussion and Emergency Services forum seem to lack the ability to appreciate this, which is extremely worrying since many of those on these forums are responsible for the exercise of the aforementioned power.

Disclaimer: I am not opposed to An Garda Siochana or the majority of the good work which it does in the community and I appreciate the majority of times in which search powers are invoked, there is a valid reasonable suspicion and it is in the public interest. I've been a victim of crime in the past and understand some of the frustration faced by victims of crime and by the Gardai themselves in attempting to prosecute these crimes without co-operation, but still believe in a balance of powers. I have never been cautioned, charged, or convicted of an offence and I intend to keep it that way.

MapForJ

MeKnowNothing wrote: »

When it happens few times a week though it can be a pain in the rectum! The Garda here in Ballyfermot go through your phone reading your messages and all. Why? Because were young and drive nice cars? Ive worked since i left school after my leaving cert at 18 to afford to buy my nice golf or audi or what ever i drive at time of said "abuse". Im from Ballyfermot, a lower class area so i must be selling drugs or doing something wrong. One word "discrimination".Bullied as kids were we lads?? Peace out!

can they do that?

MeKnowNothing

MapForJ wrote: »

can they do that?

Of course not but what can ye do? I refused to turn my phone on for them one day and the "garda" put it in his pocket and wouldn't give it back to me.

MapForJ

MeKnowNothing wrote: »

Of course not but what can ye do? I refused to turn my phone on for them one day and the "garda" put it in his pocket and wouldn't give it back to me.

complain him to ombudsman or get a solicitor to write to super. i would not allow him to do that

Finnbar01

MapForJ wrote: »

complain him to ombudsman or get a solicitor to write to super. i would not allow him to do that

AFAIK, they can take your phone under the Misues of Drugs act. Someone else will have to confirm this though.

Also, a garda can stop you anytime he feels like it.

MapForJ

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Also, a garda can stop you anytime he feels like it.

and he has to tell you why and if he does not have a valid reason you are free to go. So feeling like it is not enough of a reason to stop someone

BrianD

Do Gardai tag cars that have been involved in crime on a database like they do in the UK?

I know alot of new Garda cars now have plate readers that must be database linked.

Finnbar01

MapForJ wrote: »

and he has to tell you why and if he does not have a valid reason you are free to go. So feeling like it is not enough of a reason to stop someone

All the garda has to do is state the act he is stopping and searching you under. He does not have to go into detail about reasonable cause.

MapForJ

Finnbar01 wrote: »

All the garda has to do is state the act he is stopping and searching you under. He does not have to go into detail about reasonable cause.

never said he did said he has to say why and feeling like it is not good enough why

Finnbar01

MapForJ wrote: »

never said he did said he has to say why and feeling like it is not good enough why

As I said, he'll tell you that he is stopping you under the Misuse of Drugs act say and that'll be that.

charlemont

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Correct.



That would be very unwise and will lead to instant arrest. You are obliged to provide certain statutory information on demand to a Garda.

Ask about Lawful Authority, And watch the puzzled reaction..