Time off for husband during pregnancy?

MarkR

Hi, wasn't sure whether to post here or in Work / Jobs. My wife has a scheduled appointment in the maternity, now she gets time off work for this as she's preggers, doesn't come out of hols etc. Don't suppose it's the same for the guys?

Thanks

Nevyn

Yes your wife will get paid time off for her prenatal check ups but there is no paid time for fathers to attend prenatal check ups and as for that paternity leave you are entitled to there is no mandatory leave it depends on what is in your contract and at your employeers descresion.

Kashkai

For a country that places such importance on the family, fathers get damn all statutory leave to look after their wives pre and post birth.

I took time off work to attend all my wife's pre natal check ups. I looked forward to hearing my child's heartbeat or seeing them on the ultrasound. Its a shame most fathers miss out on this as I think it helps you accept that your wife's growing bump is really your developing baby. I also went to the pre natal classes but I know I was in the minority of fathers to be, as there was only one other guy in the room during these classes.

There is paternity leave available of 3 days but even this pittance is not mandantory as far as a I know. As for parental leave, this is unpaid and most families nowadays can't afford to have a missing salary.

There's an election coming up so you can have your chance to put this across to the politicos (who'll probably promise the earth until they get re-elected of course:rolleyes: )

The Hill Billy

I agree 100% with what Dave said.
Fathers are treated very badly in quite a number of respects in this country.
I will be taking 2 weeks off when Foetus Billy arrives. I'm self employed, so I'd be taking a hit regardless.

However, the hard-working PAYE fathers-to-be should be looked after - at least in line with our European cousins in terms of paternity leave & benefits.

Linford

MarkR wrote:

Hi, wasn't sure whether to post here or in Work / Jobs. My wife has a scheduled appointment in the maternity, now she gets time off work for this as she's preggers, doesn't come out of hols etc. Don't suppose it's the same for the guys?

Thanks

This from http://www.oasis.gov.ie

Expectant fathers have a once-off right to paid time off work to attend the two antenatal classes immediately prior to the birth. This entitlement does not extend to every pregnancy while the woman is in employment – it’s just a once-off right only. The provision for paid time off work to attend ante-natal classes for expectant parents was brought into effect in SI 653 of 2004 Maternity Protection (Time off for Ante–Natal Classes) Regulations 2004 (PDF).

MarkR

Thanks guys

RainyDay

Is there any reason why the Dad's can't day a day or half-day annual leave for these important events?

Shelli

Of course they can, point is they shouldn't have to.

run_Forrest_run

the system sucks in this country for dads...they go after the dads who don't pay up alright but what about the hard working caring dads? Nothing but a kick in the teeth.

RainyDay

Shelli wrote:

Of course they can, point is they shouldn't have to.

So the costs of their time off is just spread across the rest of the population, through lower salaries or higher costs. There is no such thing as a free lunch - if you give away half-days, someone has to pay the price. So either the dad pays the price through his annual leave, or everyone pays the price.

run_Forrest_run wrote:

the system sucks in this country for dads...they go after the dads who don't pay up alright but what about the hard working caring dads? Nothing but a kick in the teeth.

Not quite true - Dads do get 3 days paternity leave around the time of the birth, and have a right to unpaid parental leave over the first 5 years.

squire1

Just after the budget, I think Matt Cooper was interviewing Seamus Brennan. Cooper asked what did the gov do for Dads in this budget and Brennan was shocked to think that people expected them to do anything for Dads. It sounded like it did not even come up for discussion at the cabinet.

While I am all in favour of extending maternity leave, maybe they could have allowed Dads the option of taking some of that leave in place of the mother. Not all Mums wants to take six or seven months off work and it would be nice if the option was there for Mum to return to work early and Dad to take the last month.

I cant see it happening as pepole like IBEC are too powerful an influence on our government. Maybe it is something that the Trade Unions should be asking/fighting for.

samanthacarter

RainyDay wrote:

So the costs of their time off is just spread across the rest of the population, through lower salaries or higher costs. There is no such thing as a free lunch - if you give away half-days, someone has to pay the price. So either the dad pays the price through his annual leave, or everyone pays the price.


Not quite true - Dads do get 3 days paternity leave around the time of the birth, and have a right to unpaid parental leave over the first 5 years.

Unpaid parental leave have extended to the first 8 years and there is no 3 days paternity leave around the time of hte birth except if your company give it to you, most don't

viking

squire1 wrote:

Just after the budget, I think Matt Cooper was interviewing Seamus Brennan. Cooper asked what did the gov do for Dads in this budget and Brennan was shocked to think that people expected them to do anything for Dads. It sounded like it did not even come up for discussion at the cabinet.

Yep, heard this too. Matt asked him why he wouldn't be doing anything about it and Brennan replied that it wasn't on the agenda for the government.

So looks like no change in policy for a few years.

iguana

I know in the UK there is talk of extending maternity leave from 26 weeks to 39, but a couple can choose to divide 13 weeks of that time between both parents. So the mother could take 34 weeks and the father takes 5 or the mother takes 26 and the father takes 13. I don't think it is actually law yet, though my contract allows for something similar.

Not that it will be of any use to me, when the time comes, as my husband is sel-employed. But maternity and paternity leave in the UK is a fixed amount, which is pretty low, unless your company also makes payments.

LegacyUser

I really cant belive that there are companies out there that will begrudge a man some paid time off for the birth of his child.Im a senior manager in my company and I TOOK time off for each and every hospital visit.

Time off post birth is a tender topic I know.....Im taking a week or two weeks off when babog is born depending on how my wife is feeling when we get home...and Im just taking it for granted that its from my annual holidays.I will most likely get the time off as extra after such long service to my company .

drkool

MarkR wrote:

Hi, wasn't sure whether to post here or in Work / Jobs. My wife has a scheduled appointment in the maternity, now she gets time off work for this as she's preggers, doesn't come out of hols etc. Don't suppose it's the same for the guys?

Thanks

I become a dad last week got a weeks of prenatal leave no pay.
Government needs to strength the family bond. It will lead to
Kids with less anti social behavior problems, for example
Compare with other EU countries
Norway
4 weeks paternity leave ("use it or lose it")

Finland
18 days paid paternity (proposing to raise it to 25 days)

Denmark
14 days paid paternity

France
2 weeks paid paternity

Italy
2 weeks paid paternity

UK
2 weeks paid paternity (from 2003)

Sweden
10 days paternity leave

Austria
10 days paid paternity

Portugal
5 days paternity

Belgium
3 days paid paternity

Spain
2 days paternity

Holland
2 days paid paternity

Luxembourg
2 days paid paternity

Ireland
NO entitlements to paternity leave

drkool

MarkR wrote:

Hi, wasn't sure whether to post here or in Work / Jobs. My wife has a scheduled appointment in the maternity, now she gets time off work for this as she's preggers, doesn't come out of hols etc. Don't suppose it's the same for the guys?

Thanks

I become a dad last week got a weeks of prenatal leave no pay.
Government needs to take action to strength the family bond. It will prevent
anti social behavior problems, for example
Compare with other EU countries
Norway
4 weeks paternity leave with pay ("use it or lose it")

Finland
18 days paid paternity (proposing to raise it to 25 days)

Denmark
14 days paid paternity

France
2 weeks paid paternity

Italy
2 weeks paid paternity

UK
2 weeks paid paternity (from 2003)

Sweden
10 days paternity leave

Austria
10 days paid paternity

Portugal
5 days paternity

Belgium
3 days paid paternity

Spain
2 days paternity

Holland
2 days paid paternity

Luxembourg
2 days paid paternity

Ireland
NO entitlements to paternity leave

parsi

RainyDay wrote:

So the costs of their time off is just spread across the rest of the population, through lower salaries or higher costs. There is no such thing as a free lunch - if you give away half-days, someone has to pay the price. So either the dad pays the price through his annual leave, or everyone pays the price..

You're right. I pay for jackeens to use the dart and M50. I also pay for prisoners. I pay for the salaries of all TDs even though I'm in Cork. I pay for old people. I pay for search and rescue .

Guess what -that's what a society is all about. We all pay a slice of the cost so that when the time comes we won't have to pay the full cost.

Shhesh go back to your PD meeting..

RainyDay

parsi wrote:

You're right. I pay for jackeens to use the dart and M50. I also pay for prisoners. I pay for the salaries of all TDs even though I'm in Cork. I pay for old people. I pay for search and rescue .

Guess what -that's what a society is all about. We all pay a slice of the cost so that when the time comes we won't have to pay the full cost.

Shhesh go back to your PD meeting..

So what's the huge problem with expecting Dad to take some time out of (minimum 3 weeks paid) annual leave after the birth?

Shelli

Becuase, what if new mum needs some help in the few months after the birth? My bf is planning on keeping as many of his as possible and only taking a few days after the birth, that way he'll have the other days should I need him to take it off for anything else...helping me with hosp appointments, giving me a day off every now and then for a rest, etc. Not to mention that the dad deserves a break too.

I would happily give a few weeks of my maternity leave to my bf, it'd help me out too, I don't fancy being at home on my own those first few weeks.

The poor dads really do get the short end of the stick in every way in this country.

RainyDay

Shelli wrote:

Becuase, what if new mum needs some help in the few months after the birth? My bf is planning on keeping as many of his as possible and only taking a few days after the birth, that way he'll have the other days should I need him to take it off for anything else...helping me with hosp appointments, giving me a day off every now and then for a rest, etc. Not to mention that the dad deserves a break too.

I would happily give a few weeks of my maternity leave to my bf, it'd help me out too, I don't fancy being at home on my own those first few weeks.

The poor dads really do get the short end of the stick in every way in this country.

This is an exaggeration. Dad is entitled to 14 weeks of unpaid leave between birth and the child's 5th (or is it now 8th) birthday. Plenty of chances there to help his missus and spend some time with baby.

Though I do agree with you that the option for either the mother or the father to take the paid 'maternity leave' would be nice.

dame

It's until the child's 8th birthday for the unpaid parental leave, which may be taken by either parent. It's also available for adoptive parents.

Nevyn

Yes but it is unpaid and when you can take it is at the employeers discretion if you boss won't ok it then it is very hard to get it sanctioned.

Shelli

What good is unpaid leave to dads when the mum is already on a wage cut with maternity leave? For most couples its just not feasible.

I'm not saying dad should be given same 6 months paid or anything, but even a week to spend with new baby should be the min.

dame

Your boss can't refuse to give you your unpaid parental leave, it's an entitlement. All they can do is delay it, but you'll still get it. You obviously have to give them enough notice to get someone else to cover your work.

Tazz T

RainyDay wrote:

This is an exaggeration. Dad is entitled to 14 weeks of unpaid leave between birth and the child's 5th (or is it now 8th) birthday. Plenty of chances there to help his missus and spend some time with baby.

Though I do agree with you that the option for either the mother or the father to take the paid 'maternity leave' would be nice.

I don't know a single father who's taken any of this 14 weeks of unpaid leave. Generally there seems to be an unwritten rule that this is reserved for emergency circumstances. I know that, working in a small firm, if I requested any of this it would be looked upon very unfavourably.

As for the half day/day out of your annual leave for attending the hospital comment, I think that day would be more useful used, for example, looking after a mother who's had a caesarium with a couple of other kids running around. I'd like to see you or your partner cope in that situation with one of you working. I think your views on why you should pay through 'higher costs' would change then.

We're a society. Without children this society would fail to exist. Hence it only makes commonsense that we put the means in place of caring for mother and child after birth. In this country we haven't done this adequately and anti-societal attitudes like yours certainly isn't going to help us get there.

Nevyn

Well it used to be that the care to support families after a birth came from women in the community and the wider family, other mothers, grandmothers, aunts who would be at home rearing thier own children would call around and pitch in.

But with the prices of houses it is not possible for most people to live near family and even if they are most likely granny is back at work as well as the aunts and a lot of those who used to be the stay at home parents are in work.

This effect the elderly as well as the community caring work is not being done by those who used to do it.

Tazz T

This is true. In a way we (Irish society) have conned ourselves. With the Celtic Tiger, more and more parents went to work in order to afford a better home/lifestyle for their children. As more people did this, the price of housing went up, resulting in this being the norm - both parents have to work to afform the same level of housing that, before, one salary paid for. Both parents are now breadwinners and there is no one there to look after the home and the family. In reality, we gained nothing apart from a large creche bill.

RainyDay

Tazz T wrote:

I don't know a single father who's taken any of this 14 weeks of unpaid leave. Generally there seems to be an unwritten rule that this is reserved for emergency circumstances. I know that, working in a small firm, if I requested any of this it would be looked upon very unfavourably.

That's certainly not my experience. I've seen parental leave used by many, many fathers in my last employer (hi-tech multi-national), include a couple of staff at Director-level. But this stuff about being 'looked upon very unfavourable' is a bad joke. If you're not prepared to stand up for your rights, you can't expect the state to step and offer even more leave (which presumably would be looked on just as unfavourably.

Tazz T wrote:

As for the half day/day out of your annual leave for attending the hospital comment, I think that day would be more useful used, for example, looking after a mother who's had a caesarium with a couple of other kids running around. I'd like to see you or your partner cope in that situation with one of you working. I think your views on why you should pay through 'higher costs' would change then.

I've been through difficult times, including coping with my partner's 20 nights in Holles St prior to giving birth, and our baby's 25 days in neo-natal intensive care after the birth. So hope down off the high horse and let's get back to the discussion.

Tazz T wrote:

We're a society. Without children this society would fail to exist. Hence it only makes commonsense that we put the means in place of caring for mother and child after birth. In this country we haven't done this adequately and anti-societal attitudes like yours certainly isn't going to help us get there.

I guess I must have missed the announcement of your appointment as spokesperson for society at large.

Tazz T wrote:

This is true. In a way we (Irish society) have conned ourselves. With the Celtic Tiger, more and more parents went to work in order to afford a better home/lifestyle for their children. As more people did this, the price of housing went up, resulting in this being the norm - both parents have to work to afform the same level of housing that, before, one salary paid for. Both parents are now breadwinners and there is no one there to look after the home and the family. In reality, we gained nothing apart from a large creche bill.

Anyone finding themself in this position can always avoid the large creche bill by one partner giving up work.

BostonB

dame wrote:

Your boss can't refuse to give you your unpaid parental leave, it's an entitlement. All they can do is delay it, but you'll still get it. You obviously have to give them enough notice to get someone else to cover your work.

AKAIK If you take it enmasse you are entitled to it. Though they can refuse it once, and basically they can set the dates. If you want to take it piecemeal they don't have to give it to you.

Of course your wife might not have paid maternity so therefore money might be tight and having the other wage earner on unpaid leave might not be doable. So by making it enmasse it rules it out for many people.

Of course if you well off none of this effects you.

BostonB

RainyDay wrote:

That's certainly not my experience. I've seen parental leave used by many, many fathers in my last employer (hi-tech multi-national), include a couple of staff at Director-level. But this stuff about being 'looked upon very unfavourable' is a bad joke. If you're not prepared to stand up for your rights, you can't expect the state to step and offer even more leave (which presumably would be looked on just as unfavourably.

I never seen many fathers take it. Though I've taken it when a child was sick. Its not about right. Often theres a culture in a office/company that discourages people from taking there entitlements. It depends on where you work, basically.

RainyDay wrote:

Anyone finding themself in this position can always avoid the large creche bill by one partner giving up work.

Why not both become unemployed? Thats a "choice" too.

nesf

The big issues are mostly with small firms where even one person missing puts a huge burden on the rest of the workers whether or not it is paid leave. There i quite reasonable problems on the employer's side here with granting a lot of paternity leave (paid especially) and this clashes with the parent's quite reasonable right to paternity leave. If you make it too employee focussed then you're just going to create a lot of problems on the company side of things and vice versa.

Implementing a blanket 3-4 weeks of paid leave for fathers after birth would be a pretty bad thing for the small firms sector. You could create incentives to grant such leave with the government subsidising X amount of the employees wage lessening the burden on the employer or something but expecting a small 10-20 person firm to be able to provide more than 1 or 2 weeks paid leave without suffering for it simply indicates how little you know about the sector works.

RainyDay wrote:

So what's the huge problem with expecting Dad to take some time out of (minimum 3 weeks paid) annual leave after the birth?

There is none really but a lot of people don't believe in the reality of the free lunch issue. I'd love there to be 12 or 14 weeks paid paternity leave but it simply isn't viable outside of high tax economics (Sweden et al).

Saving up holidays so you can take them after the birth is both reasonable and generally a good idea. Taking half days, again from annual leave, for check-ups etc is again reasonable.

Shelli

I don't think anyone expects the employer to bear the brunt of paying the father while he's on paternity leave, the government should make provisions for this, the same as they do for maternity leave. I certainly don't think 1 or 2 weeks paternity pay, (at the same rate as maternity pay) is asking for too much. Last year the max maternity pay you could be entitled to was €285 per week, are you telling me that the budget couldn't stretch to this for a week for fathers?

Kashkai

Shelli wrote:

I don't think anyone expects the employer to bear the brunt of paying the father while he's on paternity leave, the government should make provisions for this, the same as they do for maternity leave. I certainly don't think 1 or 2 weeks paternity pay, (at the same rate as maternity pay) is asking for too much. Last year the max maternity pay you could be entitled to was €285 per week, are you telling me that the budget couldn't stretch to this for a week for fathers?[/QUOT

Afraid the Exchequer couldn't stretch to this as the available funds are being used to buy the election, pay expenses to our TD's, Senators, Councillors etc. Wasting money paying a father to look after his wife and newborn just wouldn't do I'm afraid tut, tut:rolleyes:

I took all my annual leave and then 4 weeks UNPAID parental leave after my wife had our twins by c section. She was so sore for the first 3 weeks that there was no way she could have managed to look after our babies by herself. Of course when I went back to work, there were a few snide comments about how I was "missing for 2 months" to which I replied, that I was in the office everyday for the previous 9 months as I hadn't taken leave. I pointed out that each one of the smartarses making their comments about me where "missing" when they were on the lash in the canaries, on a cruise, too drunk to turn up for work on a Monday morning etc.

I probably don't need to point out that the eejits making the comments are either childless or belong to a generation who believed that babies should be looked after by their mother while man the hairy hunter goes to the pub after work with the lads.

I'll be taking a couple of months UNPAID leave shortly to look after my kids before my wife gives up work in June. We are in the situation whereby paying €600 a week for childcare just doesn't make it worthwhile for my wife to go to work. Getting by on the one wage however is going to be extremely tight and each mortgage interest rate rise is going to hurt. Not that this matters to the government who firmly believe that we are all doing wonderfully. If you hear reports of verbal abuse of FF and PD candidates in Kildare, you'll know where it came from:mad: .

Tazz T

RainyDay wrote:

I've seen parental leave used by many, many fathers in my last employer (hi-tech multi-national), include a couple of staff at Director-level. But this stuff about being 'looked upon very unfavourable' is a bad joke. If you're not prepared to stand up for your rights, you can't expect the state to step and offer even more leave (which presumably would be looked on just as unfavourably.

In a hi-tech multi national but in a small firm of 15 people with a high staff turnover (ie, people get fired on the spot for not performing) that simply isn't an option.

RainyDay wrote:

I've been through difficult times, including coping with my partner's 20 nights in Holles St prior to giving birth, and our baby's 25 days in neo-natal intensive care after the birth. So hope down off the high horse and let's get back to the discussion.

Then you should understand the need of paternal leave or did you spend all that time at work?

RainyDay wrote:

I guess I must have missed the announcement of your appointment as spokesperson for society at large.

I guess you did. As a member of society I have a voice.

Re your creche comment, Prosperous Dave answered that. But since you asked, my partner gave up work as it's uneconomical once the creche costs are taken into consideration. Believe me, it isn't easy on one wage.

I enjoy (and agree with) the majority of your contributions to the threads on Boards, Rainy Day, so, as a parent, I find it difficult to fathom why you're so anti-paternal leave.

nesf

Tazz T wrote:

I enjoy (and agree with) the majority of your contributions to the threads on Boards, Rainy Day, so, as a parent, I find it difficult to fathom why you're so anti-paternal leave.

Eh, he isn't against it. What thread have you been reading?

Tazz T

The thread that I'm reading is the one I'm debating the case for paternal leave while Rainy Day is suggesting, rather than paternal leave, one should save up their holidays to take time off when the child is born in order to save the economy.

CJhaughey

My wife just had a little baby girl last saturday and I have saved my annual leave in order to care for a) my wife and b) my 2 yrs old son.
I don't feel that I should have had to use leave when the rest of Europe has a statutory entitlement to it, I know that small firms have a tough time of it but look at the big picture, children are the foundation of the state, without new people coming onstream a country will wither and die examples of this kind of social engineering are Italy and Japan.
This Government needs to be beaten with the fact and you can bet that I will be pointing this out to the local politicians when the come a-calling during the election lead up.

RainyDay

BostonB wrote:

I never seen many fathers take it. Though I've taken it when a child was sick. Its not about right. Often theres a culture in a office/company that discourages people from taking there entitlements. It depends on where you work, basically.

Tazz T wrote:

In a hi-tech multi national but in a small firm of 15 people with a high staff turnover (ie, people get fired on the spot for not performing) that simply isn't an option.

You can't be fired for taking parental leave. You have the choice of standing up for yourself and changing the culture. This won't be easy, but it is possible. I'm sure mothers found the same culture when maternity leave was brought in, but they had the balls to make a stand.

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I probably don't need to point out that the eejits making the comments are either childless or belong to a generation who believed that babies should be looked after by their mother while man the hairy hunter goes to the pub after work with the lads.

You might find that we have a more productive discussion here if you focus on the debate, rather than slagging off contributors to the debate. And for the record, you are wrong on both counts.

Tazz T wrote:

I guess you did. As a member of society I have a voice.

It wasn't your voice I was referring to. It was your apparant ability to decide what is 'anti-societal' yourself, without any reference to the rest of us. You don't have a monopoly on wisdom or opinion.

Shelli wrote:

I don't think anyone expects the employer to bear the brunt of paying the father while he's on paternity leave, the government should make provisions for this, the same as they do for maternity leave. I certainly don't think 1 or 2 weeks paternity pay, (at the same rate as maternity pay) is asking for too much. Last year the max maternity pay you could be entitled to was €285 per week, are you telling me that the budget couldn't stretch to this for a week for fathers?

If we still have about 50k births per annum, the cost of this would be somewhere in the region of €14 million. Would you like to suggest where this €14 million can be taken out of this year's budget, or should we be raising taxes or borrowing to fund this proposal?

squire1

RainyDay wrote:

Would you like to suggest where this €14 million can be taken out of this year's budget, or should we be raising taxes or borrowing to fund this proposal?

That is less than 0.008% of the recent "announcment" that was made for the plan of spending €182,000,000,000 on "infrastructure". Seems to me a small price to pay for the increase in standard of living it would bring.

Shelli

RainyDay wrote:

You might find that we have a more productive discussion here if you focus on the debate, rather than slagging off contributors to the debate. And for the record, you are wrong on both counts.

I think he was refering to the people he worked with making snide comments when he returned to work after unpaid leave, and how he dealt with it, relevant to this discussion in my opinion.

RainyDay wrote:

If we still have about 50k births per annum, the cost of this would be somewhere in the region of €14 million. Would you like to suggest where this €14 million can be taken out of this year's budget, or should we be raising taxes or borrowing to fund this proposal.

And as for the 50k births in Ireland each year, how many of the fathers are in full time employment? How many of the fathers are even around? If you take these and other factors into consideration i'm sure the bill would be much less.
How much tax is payed matenity leave costing us? Should we cut that to save people tax?
There is no doubt in my mind that our government could afford to pay fathers at least one weeks paternity leave, and if they still claim to not be able to afford it, and people like you grumble about paying the extra few cent a week in tax to give fathers some rights and entitlements, then there is still a way around this.......give the mother the option of giving a week or two of her leave to the father.

Tazz T

RainyDay wrote:

It wasn't your voice I was referring to. It was your apparant ability to decide what is 'anti-societal' yourself, without any reference to the rest of us. You don't have a monopoly on wisdom or opinion.

I'm not deciding what is 'anti-societal' - the rest of Europe has already done that by making paternal leave national policy. Which means I certainly don't have the monopoly on wisdom either. The decision-makers in our government seem to have got the monopoly on ignorance though.

RainyDay wrote:

If we still have about 50k births per annum, the cost of this would be somewhere in the region of €14 million. Would you like to suggest where this €14 million can be taken out of this year's budget, or should we be raising taxes or borrowing to fund this proposal?

Lest we forget the bad old days of unemployment when there was always someone there to look after the family - we didn't have the people in work to provide the taxes for paternal leave or childcare - we didn't need it. We do now and we need it now. It's not a matter of saying where the 14 million should be taken from. It's already there as a result of people deciding to leave the children in creches and go to work instead. Lets not also forget that the economy is being badly affected by working mothers leaving the workplace to look after the children because it's uneconomical to put those children in creches. If it wasn't for immigration, these jobs would not be filled.

The fact is the money's there because we're all working more rather than spending more time with our familes - the government's simply using the cash for other purposes, some of which are quite questionable, as has been suggested earlier in the thread.

Kashkai

Rainy Day,

I was referring to the self absorbed morons I work with when I made the comment about them not understanding my predicament because they either don't have kids or have old fashioned attitudes towards childcare.

Its been said before in this thread, but our kids are this country's future. If the prohibitative cost of childcare results in people putting off/deciding not to have kids, then where do we go. We are already facing into a "pensions timebomb" in 20 years or so when the cost of maintaining an elderly population will fall onto fewer and fewer taxpayers.

In an ideal world, i.e. not Ireland Inc., fathers should get as a minimum 2 weeks paid paterity leave to look after mother and child. I resent having to use my annual leave as this means I don't have any more time to take off during the year if mother/child is sick or if we can afford to go on a holiday.

Finally, there's so much talk about how well this country is doing, but why does everyone look so bloody stressed out and is it a good thing to see infants in car seats commuting into Dublin at 6.30 - 7.00 am? There's something seriously wrong with this.

Tazz T

Indeed there is Dave. We're turning them into commuters way before their time.

Part of the point I'm making is that the reason we work is for our families and if we never see them (i know a few fathers who leave before their child wakes and returns when they're asleep, seeing them only at the weekends), then what's the point (apart from the obvious - paying the bills).

It's the old work/life balance thing. We've lost sight of why we do what we do. It's not so the Ireland's financial benefit, it's for us and our families.

Getting a bit away from the debate so I'll shut up.

RainyDay

Apologies to Prosperous Dave for misinterpreting his comments.

Suggesting that current expenditure (which will be repeated every year) such as paternity leave costs should be covered out of a once-off infrastructure budget shows a fundamental misunderstanding of government budgeting.

It is interesting to note that no-one has any sensible, specific suggestions as to how this cost could be funded.

squire1

RainyDay wrote:

Suggesting that current expenditure (which will be repeated every year) such as paternity leave costs should be covered out of a once-off infrastructure budget shows a fundamental misunderstanding of government budgeting.

Maybe this is aimed at me, I'm not too sure. It was not a "misunderstanding of government budgeting" (I'd actually call it electioneering propagand myself, but there you go) on my part. I was trying to simplify an example of cost/benefit analysis. If you dont fully understand this concept any basic economic text book will give you a better explination.

Do you really believe that your quoted figure of 14Million is a significant figure in modern national economic terms? This was the point which seems to have passed you by. Sorry if I didn't make my point clear enough for you.

Shelli

I suggest more tax, as I'm sure the bill would be much less than your over-view of €14million. It surely couldn't be that much of increase spread over the full working population.

Also, I don't know of one mother who would have a problem giving her partner 1 or 2 wks out of her maternity leave, most don't even use their full entitlement of 26wks, and even if they do they have their annual leave aswell. And in many circumstances, such as my own, as my maternity leave covers 2 years (Mid July 07 - mid Feb 08), I will have both years annual leave at my disposal, a total of 8 wks. Only a few days of which I will take before my maternity leave.

There are surely many ways of giving paid paternity leave, and many other countries can manage it quite well.

I don't pretend to understand the full ins and outs of the government budget, but I fail to see how it is not possible in some way.

BostonB

RainyDay wrote:

Apologies to Prosperous Dave for misinterpreting his comments.

Suggesting that current expenditure (which will be repeated every year) such as paternity leave costs should be covered out of a once-off infrastructure budget shows a fundamental misunderstanding of government budgeting.

It is interesting to note that no-one has any sensible, specific suggestions as to how this cost could be funded.

The money (billion-ish) thats wasted on decentralisation and the increases in expenses and operating costs caused by it. I'm sure if you poked around you'd find the money easy enough.

BostonB

RainyDay wrote:

You can't be fired for taking parental leave. You have the choice of standing up for yourself and changing the culture. This won't be easy, but it is possible. I'm sure mothers found the same culture when maternity leave was brought in, but they had the balls to make a stand....

All very noble. Apart from the difficulty at work in taking it, some people can't afford to take it. Nobility won't pay the bills.

Tazz T

Did we not have a huge surplus this year from record numbers of people contributing to the economy?

Or, how about taking it out of the massive increases in stamp duty revenue from increasing house prices (from people buying homes for new family members). Failing that, increase corporation tax/tax the employers - they're benefiting from people working for them rather then staying at home looking after their children.

What's better for the economy - more people staying at home to care for the nation's children, or letting father's have a couple of extra weeks leave (something that isn't going to happen more than a few time during one's entire working life) when they have a child?

I spend more days than that dossing at work each year

RainyDay

So let's say for the sake of arguement that the Govt can find a spare €14 million down behind the couch. Are we really sure that top priority area for spending would be paternity leave for Dads, given that many hospitals are cancelling vital operations due to a lack of intensive care beds?

Is keeping people alive less important that a couple of weeks off work for Dads?