Irish Channels should be free to Air

easkey

I think we all should be able to get a good digital tv reception.
Irish Ch's should be FTA or FTV on Satellite.
Does anyone agree:rolleyes:
I have e-maild Comrag about this very question.
Here is e-mail and reply...........

Dear Sir. I have an up to date TV licence, which says I SHOULD be able to receive RTE 1 – 2, TV 3 and TG4 in my home in digital reception.
I can get an Analogue signal from our local transmitter in Sligo. But to get my digital picture I have to pay SKY TV a further E30 approx per month,
For this picture. I feel my licence fee should cover me to view these channels.
I have a satellite on my house from Lidl to get freeview , but no Irish Channels.
My question is why o why do I have to pay Sky again to watch the channels I have a paid a licence for.

REPLY

Question on Free to Air
Dear Michael,
Thank you for your e-mail.
RT is legally obliged to provide free-to-air reception to viewers in the Republic of Ireland, which we do through our terrestrial transmitter network. However, viewers who wish to receive their signal via cable or satellite are required to pay for this service to signal providers such as NTL, Chorus, Sky etc. The RT television channels, TG4 and TV3 are available as a package from Sky. They are encrypted on other free-to-view satellites.
In addition to the home-produced and commissioned programmes in our schedules, we also acquire a high percentage of programmes on the international market, i.e., The Simpsons, ER, CSI, many of our sports programmes such as Champions League and The Premiership are also acquired, as are all the movies we show. When we purchase these programmes we only acquire the rights to show them in the Republic of Ireland - we may not infringe international copyright by showing them to a wider audience as would be the case if they were available on any free-to-view satellite.

I trust that this explains the situation.

With best regards
Nina Ward
RT Information Officer

Any one agree

Ulsterman 1690

When we purchase these programmes we only acquire the rights to show them in the Republic of Ireland - we may not infringe international copyright by showing them to a wider audience as would be the case if they were available on any free-to-view satellite.

Does the fact that RTE transmit into Northern Ireland on cable, satellite and terrestrially then not mean that they are breaking the law (albeit a stupid one)

Oh and they dont seem to understand the difference between FTA and FTV either. In fact what the hell is a free-to-view satellite Is English these peoples first language or what ? :rolleyes:

watty

It doesn't break ANY law if RTE transmits on Satellite Clear. But the rights holders would with hold material and/or demand more money.

The OP referred to Lidl Free To Air as freeview, which it isn't. Freeview is the UK free Digital Terrestrial service.

The Comreg person is using the phrase free-to-view satellite when from context obviously Free to Air is meant.

RTE could of course use FTV ( free-to-view satellite) as this is encryped and limited by viewing card.

On terrestrial transmitters the rights holders have always had to accept that transmissions can't stop at a border. The siting of two of RTE's TX is very close to border and Longford also good NI coverage, so perhaps RTE cheat a little.

Since Sky in NI and NTL cable in N.I. are both subscription pay platforms limited by viewing card, essentially all bets off and any channel is theoretically possible as long as UK authorities approve. (There are some channels that the UK authorities would not let even over 18s watch or block on grounds of racism).

RTE did a deal with sky treating Satellite as if it is Dublin cable. We all suffer for it and RTE is actually losing out on revenue because of it. Comreg & BCI can do nothing other that revoke RTE's uplink licence and block RTE entirely on Sky.

watty

Ireland has no Satellite services whatsoever. So how can we expect RTE and Comreg to understand all this complicated stuff?

slicedpanman

OK, so RTE did mess up in their negotions with Sky for space on 28E but so did ITV and CH4... ITV eventually managed to sort themselves out and there is plenty of speculation on various forums that CH4 may be able to extracate themselves from their mess and go fully FTA in 2008 when their current contract expires.

So, anyone any idea when the current RTE contract expires? And following on from that, anybody got any hope or insight on whether they will even try to go fully FTA when the contract is up for renewal?

easkey

So time ago I saw that RTE contract with Sky was up in 2009.
I would not mind a card like FTV (Eg - c4 & c5) in England.
But a licence has been paid for TV, and to get good quality Digital
TV they want me and you to pay again.
Rte are getting double the fee from us.
Spain - Holland - England - France and others are doing FTA or FTV.

watty

Sadly RTE don't get a penny from Sky, though they should!

watty

RTE can't EVER go FTA on Satellite (bar some kind of bizzare apolcalypse). FTV is the only viable route. Sky charge too much (Millions) for something that costs them nearly nothing. So RTE can't afford FTV.

ITV & BBC & C4 have a different set of constraints so are able to be FTA, saving millions (C4 from 2008) from FTV charges.

Jungle Boy

This was posted on the 'other forum'

wrote:

Originally Posted by Media Network weblog
Ireland’s public TV channels may be allowed to broadcast in UK
December 13th, 2006, 10:28 UTC by Andy

Irish politicians are due to consider a new Bill which will enable Irish public broadcasters RTÉ and TG4 to broadcasts their TV programmes in the UK. The Irish Government’s Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is due to start hearings in Dublin on the Broadcasting Bill in early January. It is proposed to amend the public service remits of RTÉ and TG4 to allow for the provision and public funding of broadcasting services to Irish communities in Britain. The move is being strongly backed by the Irish Post, a newspaper serving the Irish community in the UK. RTÉ’s radio services are already available in Britain on the Sky Digital platform.

(Source: Irish Post)

RTE broadcast on Astra 2D (alongside BBC & ITV) so could also go FTA on satellite. We wouldn't get the full schedules as British channels also hold rights for US imports & football but it will bring us a Tara TV channel.

slicedpanman

watty wrote:

RTE can't EVER go FTA on Satellite (bar some kind of bizzare apolcalypse). FTV is the only viable route. Sky charge too much (Millions) for something that costs them nearly nothing. So RTE can't afford FTV.

ITV & BBC & C4 have a different set of constraints so are able to be FTA, saving millions (C4 from 2008) from FTV charges.

Agreed watty...
FTV, aside from costing too much for RTE, would still mean that people would have to get a Dogibox and have to deal with Sky to get a viewing card.

FTA for RTE 1+2, TG4 + TV3 would be the ideal solution... but, yes, they would all have rights issues and to even attempt this would mean that for large sections of their schedules would have to Satellite blackouts (i.e. for Champs League, the GAA, and any TV series bought from the US, etc.). If they were backed up by a decent free DTT service we would be ok.

Failing all of that we could start a campaign to get the 4 domestic channels to start working on a free IPTV service...

watty

So over to Ireland Offline forum.. 40% of Dialup users can't get DSL in many places.
The fastest eircom / resold dsl is too slow for IPTV
and maybe 47 % of everyone can't get DSL.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=682

superdudeman007

A lot of people on boards and tvforum think that RTE should start some kind of multichannel thing. Why don't they open a FTA RTE digital channel on Sky that would only carry home produced stuff and put it on the EPG in the UK etc as well as in Ireland?

They're not breaking any laws by taking the chance that people in the UK will see RTÉ News, PrimeTime, Fair City (it's crap but still) and other Irish stuff. And it can't be that hard to get on the EPG if all those cheap gaming/dating/religious/music channels can do it...

Darby OGill

If he sent the e-mail to Comreg, why is the reply from RTE?????

Sponge Bob

Comreg does not answer complicated emails save to explain they can do nothing.

Ulsterman 1690

RTE can't EVER go FTA on Satellite (bar some kind of bizzare apolcalypse). FTV is the only viable route. Sky charge too much (Millions) for something that costs them nearly nothing. So RTE can't afford FTV.

There are several ways RTE could go FTA

Method 1: (As used byy ORF in Austria) RTE1 goes FTA RTE2 stays as is. All programming with "rights" issues moved to RTE2 all "home produced" programming moves to RTE1 (most of its on RTE1 already anyway)
Method 2: (Used by several European PSB's) RTE1 and 2 (and TG4) stay as is but turn off the encryption during all programming where there are no issues over rights
Method 3: (Used by Germans and others) RTE go completly FTV but are only listed on EPG in Ireland (and perhaps NI) The only people who are going to bother realisticly faffing around with "other channels" are Irish Expats and Satellite enthusiasts point this out to rights holders and if they still complain tell them to go and :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Method 4: ("Luxembourg style") RTE go completly FTA and pay the rights holders more money. Finance this by carrying UK advertising.

watty

Finally it isn't about LAW.

Its about CONTRACTS RTE has with Sky and Program suppliers. LAW doesn't enter into it.


OR RTE uses Viaccess II FTV cards and saves 80 Million on Sky rip off charges. They subsidize a Viaccess box down to 40 Euro and provide EPG for ALL the FTA channels (inexpensive).

Charge annual fee of 50 Euro for viewing card.

Sky then has to release an NDS CAM for the RTE receiver. They have no imagination.

satgirl

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

There are several ways RTE could go FTA

Methiod 4: Issue decoder cards to those who pay their TV licences.

easkey

satgirl wrote:

Methiod 4: Issue decoder cards to those who pay their TV licences.

This is a good idea -- BBC had this in the early days.

watty

No. BBC was always opposed to this. Getting a FTV card NEVER depended on a TV licence. BBC is absolutely opposed to concept of viewing cards at all. It wasn't just the money that made them pull out of Sky encryption. The never intended to be in it other than temporaliy. You can see this from published press release befor they even went on Satellite.


It sounds like a good idea, but it is stunningly bad. Imagine if your car engine wouldn't start unless your road tax, insurance and NCT was up to date. Then imagine if the viewing/driving card managment was by a company with poor call centre and prone to mistakes.

channelsurfer

todays independent has an article on it kind of related to the issue as it could involve rte going fta as one option on it. It says that rte will have to provide its service to irish people in the uk as part of the broadcasting bill being "rushed" through the dail in january. It also mentions a full roll out of DTT rather than a trial.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1740618&issue_id=14998

taung

Yes, I saw today's article regarding the government forcing RTE/TG4 to provide their output to Irish emigrants abroad.....very interesting.

One thing in particular caught my attention;
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]
"Reciprocal programme supply agreements with British broadcasters might be a way of reducing expenses."

This could be very interesting as it would, I guess, allow the Irish DTT service to broadcast British stations in return for the British DTT service broadcasting a hybrid RTE/TG4 station(s) in Britain.

.....I also would appear to open the door to a FTA (Satellite) RTE/TG4 station.....

[/FONT]

slicedpanman

channelsurfer wrote:

todays independent has an article on it kind of related to the issue as it could involve rte going fta as one option on it. It says that rte will have to provide its service to irish people in the uk as part of the broadcasting bill being "rushed" through the dail in january. It also mentions a full roll out of DTT rather than a trial.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1740618&issue_id=14998

Hi channelsurfer,
any chance of a summary of the article for those of us, like me, too cheap to buy or subscribe to the Indo?

Round Cable

slicedpanman wrote:

Hi channelsurfer,
any chance of a summary of the article for those of us, like me, too cheap to buy or subscribe to the Indo?

It's free to register for the online version of the independent.

superfarney

RTE must switch on TV service to Irish in UK
Thursday December 14th 2006
ADVERTISEMENT





New legislation to be fast-tracked as early as next week

RTE will be required to provide Irish emigrants in Britain with a television service under new legislation to be fast-tracked through the Dáil as early as next week.

The new responsibilities will mean that up-to-date Irish TV services will become widely available to Irish people in Britain - and possibly further afield.

The move is expected to cost RTE millions of euro, and the broadcaster is waiting to see the exact requirements contained in new legislation in order to estimate the cost. RTE's current remit limits the use of public funding to broadcasting in the island of Ireland. RTE had been seeking clarification on the issue in relation to this for some time.

Communities

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill will require broadcasting services to be provided to Irish communities to mirror the existing schedules of RTE and TG4. TG4 will be required to provide some programming to RTE.

Up to now, if emigrants wanted to watch RTE they could only do so over the internet. It will now be possible for the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland to enter into contracts with multiplex contractors to provide Irish programming on digital television and radio, as well as on analogue television overseas.

When the legislation is published, RTE will have to explore ways of cost-efficiently meeting this new obligation. Reciprocal programme supply agreements with British broadcasters might be a way of reducing expenses.

Communications Minister Noel Dempsey has been keen to move on the issue of broadcast services for the Irish abroad and signalled his intention to legislate for emigrants earlier in the year. The Bill will also revise the existing licensing framework for Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT).

The DTT provision in the Bill will establish a more flexible and "market responsive" licensing model for DTT in Ireland.

The DTT pilot launched in August last is set to end in less than two years' time, so this legislation will be needed to move to a full national DTT roll-out.

Mr Dempsey is trying to fast-track the legislation next week, although it may take place in January.

A complete new Broadcasting Bill is expected to go before the houses in January.

Samantha McCaughren

slicedpanman

Round Cable wrote:

It's free to register for the online version of the independent.

thanks Round Cable... I'll change my comment then to "those of us too lazy to subscribe"
... and ta superfarney for the copy of the story, interesting stuff.

The season thats in it my humbug spirit has been dampened and maybe we will see RTE and the BBC come to some friendly agreement to carry all stations in both countries for free on DTT

and whenever a bell rings somewhere an RTE/BBC/Sky exec get the idea that RTE should be fully FTA

byte

I can't see any way for RTE to broadcast to all of UK. The only way is with TaraTV like channel. They wouldn't be able to broadcast RTE1 and 2 as is in its current format, due to them showing movies and some US imports sooner than UK channels do.

DMC

Um.... I'd like to see what the bill/amendment says, rather than this article, as I cannot guess what the reporter is alluding to.

Ulsterman 1690

I cant see it being rushed through in the timescale the article envisages either

Especially when one takes account of the SIX WEEKS Christmas holidays that Irish MP's/TD's get :rolleyes:

Mossy Monk

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Method 2: (Used by several European PSB's) RTE1 and 2 (and TG4) stay as is but turn off the encryption during all programming where there are no issues over rights

this would be great

Foggy43

Ulsterman 1690 is right. Both Dail and Seanad are closed till the end of January.
Being in the UK I have an interest in this but since Tara Tv was taken off air there has been promise after promise from Dail Eireann.

'Rush through' An expression I never heard used in Ireland before. Times have changed :-)

DMC

Molly Dawson wrote:

'Rush through' An expression I never heard used in Ireland before. Times have changed :-)

There is an election coming up

Foggy43

DMC!
Nice one. I had forgotten about that

SPDUB

DMC wrote:

There is an election coming up

What's that got to do with it.

Emigrants can't vote and long may that continue unless they pay Irish tax.

watty

As long as they are still Nationals they should have some sort of vote. It's the case in some other Countries.

rlogue

That's right SPDUB. Shove us under the carpet and forget about us. :mad:

I've always advocated that we should have some directly elected senators to represent the diaspora. Any Irish passport holder who has lived in Ireland ought to be able to vote for the diaspora senators - that way we get a voice in the Oireachtas without the possibility of the overseas vote tilting elections to the Dail.

SPDUB

rlogue wrote:

That's right SPDUB. Shove us under the carpet and forget about us. :mad:

I've always advocated that we should have some directly elected senators to represent the diaspora. Any Irish passport holder who has lived in Ireland ought to be able to vote for the diaspora senators - that way we get a voice in the Oireachtas without the possibility of the overseas vote tilting elections to the Dail.

I have no problem with senators that have no vote but can contribute to debates like the senators for Washington DC in the US but if you don't live in the country and don't pay taxes to the Irish Gov you shouldn't be able to vote on changes to laws etc that affect people who do live in the country

the possibility of the overseas vote tilting elections to the Dail.

That's my main problem with diaspora votes and the fact that every election count has gone on for days in Dublin South Central because it has been that close but if you are willing to pay Irish taxes while abroad then I believe you should even have a senator who can vote


Anyway back to the topic at hand anybody wondering if one of the proposals is to put a feed of a TaraTV type service on the interent that you could watch at the same time the programme is broadcast in Ireland eg a live feed of the Late Late etc

mickd

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Method 2: (Used by several European PSB's) RTE1 and 2 (and TG4) stay as is but turn off the encryption during all programming where there are no issues over rights

Indeed the most logical and obvious route to take

watty

mickd wrote:

Indeed the most logical and obvious route to take

The would still have to pay a lot extra to writers, musicians, hosts, presenters actors etc in their own shows.

DMC

SPDUB wrote:

What's that got to do with it.

Emigrants can't vote and long may that continue unless they pay Irish tax.

My comment is nothing to do with that, its to show that the wheels of government are shown to move quicker the closer an election comes. Governments are seen to be work their arses off. Allegedly

Ulsterman 1690

The(y) would still have to pay a lot extra to writers, musicians, hosts, presenters actors etc in their own shows.

I dont see why they should have to really. Many presenters are already overpaid and only very "big name" guests/musicians would be in a position to demand a larger appearance fee (most others are only too desperate for publicity) and as the overseas audience would be a fraction of the domestic audience it would hardly be an issue.

In theory independent producers (who do a lot of the "home produced" stuff) could demand higher fees but in practice RTE could just tell them to like it or lump it. After all they hardly have a wide choice of broadcast outlets for their material

watty

payments are based on Audience size and "policed" by Unions. I think it is not a question of value but industrial politics & relations. Even BBC R4 writers get more pay now with R4 wider coverage. That isn't even TV.

Digifriendly

Why can RTE not transmit TG4 free to air both North and South. Since the Good Friday agreement stated that the Irish Language should be promoted throughout the island why can TG4 not be made free to air?

Digifriendly

I realise that TG4 is available via Transmitters in the South to viewers in the North e.g. Clermont Carn, Holywell Hill, Truskmore, Cairn Hill, Moville and that there is a low power transmitter radiating a signal east from Belfast but there are still some areas where a TG4 signal is not possible e.g. parts of Co. Antrim coast. Making TG4 free on the Sky Digital platform would fill this gap.

lucernarian

Digifriendly wrote:

I realise that TG4 is available via Transmitters in the South to viewers in the North e.g. Clermont Carn, Holywell Hill, Truskmore, Cairn Hill, Moville and that there is a low power transmitter radiating a signal east from Belfast but there are still some areas where a TG4 signal is not possible e.g. parts of Co. Antrim coast. Making TG4 free on the Sky Digital platform would fill this gap.

Low power?!? I can pick up TG4 from Divis very well, almost as well as Clermont Carn despite the incorrect polarisation. I can barely get sound on the other channels from Divis. It can't be that weak. And RTÉ paid £500,000 to improve Clermont Carn coverage and I think the cost went towards providing TG4 on Divis aswell. RTÉ have already gone to big efforts and they shouldn't have to splash out even more money to pay sky for just one channel.

lawhec

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Low power?!? I can pick up TG4 from Divis very well, almost as well as Clermont Carn despite the incorrect polarisation. I can barely get sound on the other channels from Divis. It can't be that weak. And RTÉ paid £500,000 to improve Clermont Carn coverage and I think the cost went towards providing TG4 on Divis aswell. RTÉ have already gone to big efforts and they shouldn't have to splash out even more money to pay sky for just one channel.

Are you sure that it isn't Kippure TG4 you're receiving? Its on the same frequency and I'd reckon is much more likely. TG4 from Divis is on low power (1kW) and is highly directional to the south-west.

Edit- sorry, its the south-east!

watty

I know folks in Belfast that have NTL becasue they can't receive TG4.

lucernarian

Oh ****e, right you are, Northern Corrospondent. That explains a lot... Always thought it was channel 55. I'm suprised that the power is only 1 kW. Still though, given the amount of money already spent on the idea, the British and Irish Govts. should pay for any more work equally.

Digifriendly

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Low power?!? I can pick up TG4 from Divis very well, almost as well as Clermont Carn despite the incorrect polarisation. I can barely get sound on the other channels from Divis. It can't be that weak. And RTÉ paid £500,000 to improve Clermont Carn coverage and I think the cost went towards providing TG4 on Divis aswell. RTÉ have already gone to big efforts and they shouldn't have to splash out even more money to pay sky for just one channel.

I live in Moira about 15 miles slightly south west of Divis and with an amplified 52 element high gain aerial (for RTE from CC) and 27 element wideband for Divis there is not even a whiff of a signal for TG4 from Belfast. The radiation as mentioned above is highly directional (concentrated on 135 degrees east of true north) and is at 1Kw. I do know that there have been reports of a signal on the Isle of Man confirming it is very directional.

Deflector

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Method 2: (Used by several European PSB's) RTE1 and 2 (and TG4) stay as is but turn off the encryption during all programming where there are no issues over rights.

This seems the most logical, however how would this encryption work as distinct from a FTV system using cards? Or is it the same thing? - in which case would RTÉ not have to pay Sky a fortune to operate the system as watty outlines?

And whatever system is chosen, surely the boxes in Ireland will have to be capable of receiving UK Freesat and the encryted Irish channels - is this possible? Are the current thousands of Freesat boxes already out there flooding the market compatible?

watty

RTE don't have to use Sky's FTV card, but only Sky's cards work with a Sky Digibox. The sky system is artifically expensive.

Any Freesat/FTA/Free To Air receiver can't use any kind of card or encryption.

Any cheaper card system (viaccess) needs a sat receiver with a card slot and built in CAM or else a CI for a separate CAM. Such a receiver won't work with Sky's card.

Sky have the UK/Ireland Broadcasters in position where either they pay Sky millions (C4, Five and was ITV/BBC), or give up the channel to Sky to sell (for free to Sky, RTE,TV3, TG4) or else be Free To Air (ITV, BBC, S4C, Film4). RTE can't pay for Sky's FTV system, Can't use non-Sky system and is too small to go FTA. Only the Government and EU can fix it. The original RTE deal where Sky gets everything and RTE gets nothing may seem foolish to us, but was a "dream" to RTE accountants.

Deflector

Thanks for that watty - most helpful.

watty wrote:

Any cheaper card system (viaccess) needs a sat receiver with a card slot and built in CAM or else a CI for a separate CAM. Such a receiver won't work with Sky's card.

Is this all based on the fact that Sky's residential infrastructure has now saturated satellite reception in Ireland? In which case why not leave these households (admittedly all 450,000 of them) to receive RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 via DTT? Then launch the Irish FTV platform with a system you outline in the above quote? Coupled with the UK stations on the platform, this in itself would entice not only newcomers to Irish satellite, but even draw people away from Sky. Why not just leave Sky's customers as they are - let DTT serve as their Irish outlet?

Admittedly it's hardly a satisfactory state of affairs to have all Irish stations absent from the principal viewing platform in Sky households, but it could at least be tried as a starting point. Indeed I imagine as things stand, a substantial amount of Sky households watch RTÉ on terrestrial simply out of habit, and especially on secondary television sets.