Systema

paxo

Hi
Not sure if this MA has hit Ireland yet. It is still very new here in Oz. I have the opportunity to train in it over the next couple of weeks. I am aware that it has generated a lot of discussion on various MA forums and it does seem to generate some extreme responses and views.

It was supposedly developed for Spetsnaz Special Forces in the former USSR. However it also advertises itself as not relying on aggressive and strength. I am not sure how that fits in with the SF bit.

If board members are interested I am happy share my experiences.

This is a clip from a recent seminar

Paxo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPsuFnk_sI&eurl=rs

The Bored One

I found the way the attacker would make one huge easily avoidable lunging motion and then stand perfectly stationary to be very convincing and realistic. Its a well known fact that people who try to knife you are quite accomodating, and will do their best to ensure you have a quality mugging experience.
Heh, no offence by the way, I just thought its a funny way to practice.

paxo

The Bored One wrote:

I found the way the attacker would make one huge easily avoidable lunging motion and then stand perfectly stationary to be very convincing and realistic. Its a well known fact that people who try to knife you are quite accomodating, and will do their best to ensure you have a quality mugging experience.
Heh, no offence by the way, I just thought its a funny way to practice.

No offence taken. Nothing that I have ever seen in any systema clip gells with my own experiences. That's partly why I want to train with them.

Paxo

The Bored One

paxo wrote:

No offence taken. Nothing that I have ever seen in any systema clip gells with my own experiences. That's partly why I want to train with them.

Paxo

So how does it compare with the videos?

Millionaire

I guy I know in the UK who like me has been around martial arts for years, got black belts in karate and in jujitsu too, and been to all the seminar by geoff thompson etc... has been doing Systema in the Uk this past year and he swears by it, and says it is a good system. His instructor is from Russia.

Before I heard alot of people slag it off, but then again when you go on forums you have to wonder the background or experience level of the ones who slag things off... are they around a good few years with lots of experience, or are they a rookie with limited exposure to MA.

If this guy I know gives Systema his vote, then I accept it must hav egood elements to it, as he knows his stuff and is around years.

Personally I would not be too interested in it, but if others who know what their talking about say it is good, then I would tend to believe them.

The way the guy side steps and moves in the vid... my kickboxing instructor of many years, moved similar when sparring. in other words you'd move in to attack, and he had an amazing way of side stepping, and before you knew it, he would be behind you sweeping your legs and sending you head over heels...and him in his 60s.

paxo

The Bored One wrote:

I found the way the attacker would make one huge easily avoidable lunging motion and then stand perfectly stationary to be very convincing and realistic. Its a well known fact that people who try to knife you are quite accomodating, and will do their best to ensure you have a quality mugging experience.
Heh, no offence by the way, I just thought its a funny way to practice.

No offence taken. Nothing that I have ever seen in any systema clip gells with my own experiences. That's partly why I want to train with them.

Paxo

Baggio...

Ive seen a few demos in the past.

It would not be my cup of tea from what I've seen. I saw a demo where a Spetzna said he could disarm a knife without touching the blade. He used his shoulder to rhythmically block the blade and force it back to the user. The most bizarre thing I'd ever seen. Would it work against a non compliant opponent with real intent - nope.

It seems that some of the guys who practice systema are double hard b*stards in the first place. Tougher than the actual art itself.

bella1

there is a class on every friday at 8 in sbgnorthside.unit 88 baldoyle industrial estate.

Millionaire

Baggio... wrote:

It seems that some of the guys who practice systema are double hard b*stards in the first place. Tougher than the actual art itself.

the guy in the Uk i know tells me the same.

also I saw on the self protection web site a clip of some guy getting punched full blast in the gut, over and over bareknucle to condition him.

I think I would rather me working on my own punches, to ensure immediate KO of attacker, rather than standing there letting someone belt me in the gut to condition me!

Baggio...

Millionaire wrote:

I saw on the self protection web site a clip of some guy getting punched full blast in the gut, over and over bareknucle to condition him.

Was he a fairly big meaty guy? I think I saw the same demo on TV. He was one of the original Russian CQC instructors. He's a hard bloke fought in Chechnya. I think it dates back from the Cossacks but has been modernized for the Russian army.

The Art itself looked very over the top, and makes some outrageous claim - based on a shed load of compliancy. He took on five guys with his eyes closed, but it was your typical grand master demo the boys fell over like dominos.

mikeruurds

Systema has been getting a lot of grief over at Bullshido.net, specifically for its claims of no-touch knockouts ala ki-blasting and apparent lack of realism.

I won't comment personally as the sum total of my knowledge is courtesy of youtube.

Mike

astfgl

The Bored One wrote:

I found the way the attacker would make one huge easily avoidable lunging motion and then stand perfectly stationary to be very convincing and realistic. Its a well known fact that people who try to knife you are quite accomodating, and will do their best to ensure you have a quality mugging experience.
Heh, no offence by the way, I just thought its a funny way to practice.

The problem with looking at a clip like the one above is that all we are shown is the isolation stage, so it looks fake and choreographed. We do not see if any of these moves are resistance trained against aggressive attackers so its easy for us to point out flaws.
I know nothing about weapon fighting at all (except I dont no how to do it:D ) so all i can say is that all the dodging and side-stepping looks a bit too easy to work. (The best boxer in the world can weave and dodge all he wants but he'll still eventually get hit by his opponent, even if only on his arms, but thats a different case with dodging a knife which doesnt have to hit a major organ to cause a lot of pain/damage)

Millionaire

Knife Defences are an intresting topic....I have done alot of knife defence in Krav Maga and trained in knife defence from other law enforceent/military people, though I am not great at it right now, as like any skill you have to train it alot and regular to be good at it.

This clip reminds me of KM in a way, as alot of KM knife attacks are this big telegrahed lunge/stab baynoet charge approach.

If I was going to knife someone I would not be using one big lunge, I would be going for them hell for leather, top speed, as many slashes/stabs per second I could do.

So the question is...

What aside from running is the solution to such a frenzied attack, and a real world attack would be like this.

People killed from stabbing often suffer multiple wounds 20.30, 40, 50, 60. There was a Thai girl killed a few minutes down the road the other week by a dublin guy who stabbed her over 20 times.

So how do you defend against a mad man with a knife who is going to gut you to the bone many times when your back is to the wall???

I think the KM stuff is good for some drunk who is threatening you with a knife, but who has no real intention to use it. Once this happened me, a drunk pulled a knife, so I just skipped off a few metres, once someone came into abrakebra in rathmies out of their brain with a samuri sword swing it about to kill some bouncer. one of the times I got bottled which is for real and not unlike a knife attack, a KM knife defence worked real well for me, I got bottle off attacker, got him in clinch and kneed and butted the crap out of him..(only problem his other 5 mates jumped in!)./

so some of this stuff works, but for a real life or death situation where running is impossible, what the best?

paxo

Baggio... wrote:

Ive seen a few demos in the past.

It would not be my cup of tea from what I've seen. I saw a demo where a Spetzna said he could disarm a knife without touching the blade. He used his shoulder to rhythmically block the blade and force it back to the user. The most bizarre thing I'd ever seen. Would it work against a non compliant opponent with real intent - nope.

It seems that some of the guys who practice systema are double hard b*stards in the first place. Tougher than the actual art itself.

Baggio
I have had similar experiences training in Krav Maga. There are some well hard B*stards, often older blokes with a background in BJJ / Boxing / Muay Thai or other more contact orientated art. Usually with a lot of life experience Some of these feckers could make origami work for them never mind Krav
I am interested to see what type of student attends the systema class

Paxo

The Bored One

astfgl wrote:

The problem with looking at a clip like the one above is that all we are shown is the isolation stage, so it looks fake and choreographed. We do not see if any of these moves are resistance trained against aggressive attackers so its easy for us to point out flaws.
I know nothing about weapon fighting at all (except I dont no how to do it:D ) so all i can say is that all the dodging and side-stepping looks a bit too easy to work. (The best boxer in the world can weave and dodge all he wants but he'll still eventually get hit by his opponent, even if only on his arms, but thats a different case with dodging a knife which doesnt have to hit a major organ to cause a lot of pain/damage)

Its no so much even the fact that its in the isolation stage that bugs me, its where it starts. In the majority of cases where someone has actually pulled a knife and is waving it round, they have no real intention of using it. Their objective is to threaten to get what they want, ie your lovely cash.
In cases where someone is actually intending to knife you, the weapon will either be hidden or pulled at the last moment, and then its usually a case of grab and stab, followed by a bit of either more stabbing or random slashing.

So in the case of realistic knife defence training
1. The weapon must either be hidden or not visible until attack.
2. The attack pattern must be random
3. Attacker keeps going till disabled.

The lack of 2 and 3 I'll let go because it was just a small demonstration, but the lack of the first makes it hard to treat credibily.

The Bored One

paxo wrote:

Baggio
I have had similar experiences training in Krav Maga. There are some well hard B*stards, often older blokes with a background in BJJ / Boxing / Muay Thai or other more contact orientated art. Usually with a lot of life experience Some of these feckers could make origami work for them never mind Krav
I am interested to see what type of student attends the systema class

Paxo

Out of curiousity, whats the differences in between what you've seen and done, and whats on the videos?
Its not the first time Ive run into an art looking absolutely nothing like the propoganda, so Im just curious.

yomchi

I posted this a couple of weeks back. Spot the differnces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qxIc...elated&search=

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

I posted this a couple of weeks back. Spot the differnces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qxIc...elated&search=

Link got mangled.

yomchi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qxIcnaXHDk&mode=related&search=

Try this one..

paxo

The Bored One wrote:

Out of curiousity, whats the differences in between what you've seen and done, and whats on the videos?
Its not the first time Ive run into an art looking absolutely nothing like the propoganda, so Im just curious.

For me the video shows a rather compliant attacker, no anger or verbals. That may be because it was a demo and they were trying to show the principles or techniques. I know that when we pressure test techniques in Krav they look very messy and nothing like they do in a demo.
I have my first systema class on Thurs so I may know a little more on Friday

Paxo

john kavanagh

hmmm looks interesting

yomchi

john kavanagh wrote:

hmmm looks interesting

I was going to be crude, but I won't. Such nonsense. It's like being attacked by a chiropractor

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

It's like being attacked by a chiropractor

lol....actually chiro's make good grapplers

astfgl

I wonder if they train this with "alive" methods?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPO_MZvCI_I&mode=related&search=

gymrabbit

doesn't gokor teach systema?

i always thought it was russian krav maga.

cletus

I know nothing about systema, but that video reminds me of training with a guy who was going to show me knife defence techniques. He handed me a rubber knife and sauid "stab me". When I did he said "no, no, not like that, like this...":rolleyes:

paxo

OK. Just in from my first systema class so these are my initial impressions and experience.
It was very different to my usual and past training. All of the techniques were trained in a slow relaxed manner with a strong emphysis on maintaining good posture. There was a distinct lack of aggression in fact it appeared to be discouraged. Students were encouraged to give feedback to each other. No specific techniques were taught in response to particular attacks so instead of the usual " if he does a right roundhouse punch you block and then hit him with a right cross" it was more a case of he punches and you respond with whatever, a punch, kick, takedown etc

I did find that both instructors could generate good power in their strikes even from very close range. I found it hard to see how they generated their power as they hit in a very relaxed almost soft way.

Superficially it appears similar to some of the softer chinese styles like tai chi or baqua. I have no hands on experience of either of these styles so this is just my impression

I plan to continue training for a couple of months untill my krav classes resume and my boxing partners return from their extended Christmas hols

Paxo

cletus

Is this part of the same style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixww6nscupM&mode=related&search=

yomchi

cletus wrote:

Is this part of the same style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixww6nscupM&mode=related&search=

The mulitple knife attacks was like a scene from 'Night of the Zombies'.

gymrabbit

a friend of mine does a bit of systema, it's a bit too aikido flowlocky for my tastes. like others have said he's got great technique for punching. systema is trained, from what i've seen, with a complete emphasis on self-defense. For example, they'd practice throwing punches from the "Hey dude, leave it out I don't want to fight- BAM" type thing.

yomchi

they'd practice throwing punches from the "Hey dude, leave it out I don't want to fight- BAM" type thing.

Its called pre-emption!

FiannaGym.com

paxo wrote:

There are some well hard B*stards, often older blokes with a background in BJJ / Boxing / Muay Thai or other more contact orientated art.

Paxo, I have to ask, who are these older blokes with a background in BJJ? I dont know of a whole load of older dudes doing BJJ let alone having a background in it. Sounds great.

Peace

Millionaire

gymrabbit wrote:

with a complete emphasis on self-defense. For example, they'd practice throwing punches from the "Hey dude, leave it out I don't want to fight- BAM" type thing.

Thats what all us RBSD/Combatives dudes on here have been training for years.

It can be traced back to the likes of Geoff Thompson, and more recent RBSD teachers, in fact I have been training it since I bought one of Geoffs first ever instructional books, over 10 years back now.

It works very nicely too in the real world. ;-)

gymrabbit

I don't think it's a particulary interesting/effective/enjoyable way to train.

Millionaire

gymrabbit wrote:

I don't think it's a particulary interesting/effective/enjoyable way to train.

Who did you train this way with, that you did not find it effective?


Re effective...I find it very effective. Punching is probably THE MOST effective weapon you have for a street situation...(or a variant of a punch such as a palm strike...to me its just the same as a punch only I hit you with a different part of the hand...just like Bas Rutten used in some of his MMA fights, see his web site fight clips)

Punching is easy to learn, you just got to put ALOT of time in to get good at it and 100s of round hard sparring. To me good sparring is very enjoyable.


Enjoyable...well thats up to the person really. You might enjoy hanging out in the George Pub for example, but thats your free will, none of us would hold that against you!

gymrabbit

Millionaire wrote:

Who did you train this way with, that you did not find it effective?


Re effective...I find it very effective. Punching is probably THE MOST effective weapon you have for a street situation...(or a variant of a punch such as a palm strike...to me its just the same as a punch only I hit you with a different part of the hand...just like Bas Rutten used in some of his MMA fights, see his web site fight clips)

Punching is easy to learn, you just got to put ALOT of time in to get good at it and 100s of round hard sparring. To me good sparring is very enjoyable.


Enjoyable...well thats up to the person really. You might enjoy hanging out in the George Pub for example, but thats your free will, none of us would hold that against you!

Sparring is a more effective way of training for this scenario rather than training preemptive attacks in some kind of staged scenario. I don't understand why you bring homosexuality into this, sounds like you're big of an ignorant thug.

Millionaire

gymrabbit wrote:

Sparring is a more effective way of training for this scenario rather than training preemptive attacks in some kind of staged scenario. I don't understand why you bring homosexuality into this, sounds like you're big of an ignorant thug.

You think I do not spar? LOL!!! Sparring is the most important and enjoyable part of my training....it has been for years and years.

Thats the best thing someone called me in years "An Ignorant Thug" LOL!!! thats really funny!

I supposed in your opinion then this Thai figher Yodsaenglai Fairtex in clip No 1 and 1 A and Geoff Thompson & Co are doing inefective training in a preemptive stage scenario...

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgpgWWzeER4&mode=related&search=

1 A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Gpi7G6jQE&mode=related&search=

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqgeTEwwTzE

yomchi

To each their own lads. Gymrabbit you seem to make it a habit of just jumping in and landing your opinion in a less than courtious manner. And Gerry your well known as a thug so you shut it too..:D

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

And Gerry your well known as a thug so you shut it too..LOL

No, I am an "ignorant thug"...that means I walk around the Muay Thai camp daily between rounds... Belch loudly, hawk my throat and spit green phlem over the ring ropes...(just like my trainer does, and wipes the rest on his muay thai shorts), and walk around the streets, ready to Pre Emptively take some innocent kid you wears glasses and studies for the ACCA exams on the weekends off the face of the planet with a slap! LOL!!! :eek:

Actually no... I might slip an odd repressed belch out, but by spare time is spent reading books about Spiritual ideals (deepak chopra etc)! Turth me told! sorry to let the image down..and I wear glasses when my lens get sore too!

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

And Gerry your well known as a thug so you shut it too..LOL

No, I am an "ignorant thug"...that means I walk around the Muay Thai camp daily between rounds... Belch loudly, hawk my throat and spit green phlem over the ring ropes...(just like my trainer does, and wipes the rest on his muay thai shorts), and walk around the streets, ready to Pre Emptively take some innocent kid who wears glasses and studies for the ACCA exams on the weekends off the face of the planet with a slap! LOL!!! :eek:

Actually no... I might slip an odd repressed belch out, but my spare time is spent reading books about Spiritual ideals (deepak chopra etc)! Truth be told! sorry to let the image down..and I wear glasses when my lens get sore too!

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

reading books about Spiritual ideals (deepak chopra etc)

Deepak Chopra. This is a person who claims that he has levitated. He has also said that if you think happy, you would have "happy molecules." This brilliance earns him millions of dollars a year

more chopra wisdom about 1/4 way down

Millionaire

Yes I know John... I am trying to rob his ideas to make a few quid myself. Joking aside.

Alot his writings, especially the 7 Laws of Spiritual Success, parrell very much the teaching behind AA, and many other 12 step programs, which has helped millions of people of all different creeds, colors, and nations get sober, beat addictions etc etc... and any teaching that helps that show the strenght of the message...and me Thank God, have experienced that miracle this year.

I had a massive amount of anger in me for a few years over various things, which lead to drink and trouble (as I posted before, without rehashing all that again), and now with the help of this spiritual stuff. all the anger has been lifted out of me, and I experience massive serenity, inner peace and happiness on a daily basis, and I have massive gratitude in life.

I know not everyone is interested in that nor should they have to be , but for me and it helped turn my life around for the better. :-)

Namaste!

Dave Joyce

Sparring is a more effective way of training for this scenario rather than training preemptive attacks in some kind of staged scenario.

Good man, you must be very tough in that you prefer to spar, for this scenario, than attempt to knock someone out with a pre-emptive strike. Do you think that RBSD guys just train one strike and can't spar?? Whats wrong with doing things the easy way?? No braggin rights???

I experience massive serenity, inner peace and happiness on a daily basis

, and then I go and kick the sheet outta the padman, bags and anything else I can hit:) Hey Gerry I hope you not spending too much time in Ko Phanang and going all hippy on us LOL!! Chok Dee Khun Gerry

paxo

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Paxo, I have to ask, who are these older blokes with a background in BJJ? I dont know of a whole load of older dudes doing BJJ let alone having a background in it. Sounds great.

Peace

http://www.bjj.com.au/johnwill.html
BJJ has been in Oz for about 15 years largely due to John Will. Two of the guys I train with have trained in BJJ. They are guys about 40 yo. I couldn't tell you what grade they achieved or who they trained under. I do know that they regularly handed me my ass when we trained in ground fighting. Interestingly they had both boxed as well in their younger days and could both bang a bit.

Paxo

paxo

cletus wrote:

Is this part of the same style?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixww6nscupM&mode=related&search=

It would appear so. But I don't know enough about systema to say whether there is a consistant standard or whether like karate there are various versions of the same art. Howver I did not notice anyone wearing camoflage or disruptive pattern clothing in class last night. Even the instructor wore Tshirt and shorts

Paxo

gymrabbit

Yes those drills performed in the videos are all good ways to learn and practice a technique. I didn't see much of the pre-emptive part. I don't think it's an aspect of training that needs much time spent on it. Do the pads then do sparring. In what aspect do you use this pre-emptive stuff? The pads? Surely this just takes time away from hitting pads. In sparring? I'd doubt the realism of your sparring if you were trying to encorpate preemptive attack training.

Just to meander around the topic for a while, I don't really mind what books you read Gerry, about philosophy, religion, politics, natural history. I don't think that excuses you making snide comments about people's sexuality. Again, it's just more evidence suggesting your oldfashionedness. Don't get me wrong, I've respect for the old ways, but if they're stupid, or more accurarely, I consider them not directly related to improving, I ignore them.

I don't want to come across like I'm trying to pick a fight with the millionaire over trivial stuff but I will say, that despite his 20 years more experience than my own in martial arts and related culture, he still comes across on the internet (perhaps he's perfectly reasonable in a real life format) as being naive. I'm sure some of the people reading this think this is a case of the "pot calling the kettle black" but it's my honest opinion and I feel it's important to share that.

Jon I completely accept your critisism, it wasn't particularly eloquent of me to dismiss your opinion on the differences between sport and martial arts as bull**** but in an effort to be as succinct as possible I felt it expressed my opinion on your opinion best.

yomchi

Jon I completely accept your critisism, it wasn't particularly eloquent of me to dismiss your opinion on the differences between sport and martial arts as bull**** but in an effort to be as succinct as possible I felt it expressed my opinion on your opinion best

No worries mate, but it wasn't my opinion you said was bull, as I didn't give one. Personally it doesn't bother me who calls what sport and what martial art. Whats in a title.

gymrabbit

Jon wrote:

No worries mate, but it wasn't my opinion you said was bull, as I didn't give one. Personally it doesn't bother me who calls what sport and what martial art. Whats in a title.

Woops. I see.

Millionaire

Dave Joyce wrote:

, and then I go and kick the sheet outta the padman, bags and anything else I can hit:) Hey Gerry I hope you not spending too much time in Ko Phanang and going all hippy on us LOL!! Chok Dee Khun Gerry

Dave

I ve even got a bananna tree in my garden that I whack a few kicks on too! LOL! then I read the dee pak books after!

poor Kru Ped my usual thai pad man was getting a bit lazy on me this past week or so (you know yourself Dave how the Thais can get at times.. and a reek of Beer Chang off him that would make a Buffalo throw up), so Khun Gerry had to get a whack on the legs, and a shot around the side where the stomach pad does not cover, to liven him up a bit!!!

You know... I just cannot figure out how Thais think... it a major source of amusement at the best of times. but then again a Frangs coming to learn Muay Thai is a source of amusement to them, since most of the Thais finish fighting about 21 unless their really going places. I suppose its like a team of Thais coming over and going down to the Banner county to learn Hurling, with aspirations of playing in Croke park. !!!!

Khun Gerry is staying well away from Koi Phanang, Koi Phi Phi and any other Koi! After all, Walking Street in Pattaya is 1000% better! LOL!!!!

Gym Rabbit...for Jaysus Sake... I was only have a bit of fun with you in that post!!! for christ sake... I did not know Ireland passed a law since I left about having a bit of slagging! Apologies if ya took it the wrong way! If you think I am naive...well thats your free choice... and with respect I won't be loosing any sleep over what you nor anyone else things about me or what I do, as long as I am breaking no laws, or being unethical.

Will we talk about Katoeys next??? :eek:

Millionaire

gymrabbit wrote:

. I don't think it's an aspect of training that needs much time spent on it..

Why?

If you want to be the best...my belief is you copy what the best guys do.

Lets pick Muay Thai as an example as No 1 it is probably the most effective striking system. and No 2 very related to MMA which alot of lads on here are interested in.

Top Thai Fighers (champions) do MANY round daily on Thai pads, and then a few on boxing pads for punches. perhaps 6 - 7 rounds in morning....repated in afternoon. then on to bag work for many rounds, sparring, and clinch work.

You can be very pre emptive in sparring (or in the ring)... to me that means I take the fight to my opponent, as in I ensure I am attacking and forward moving with goal of putting him out of commission... as opposed to move around and letting him attack and me try to defend (now that works for some defensive style fighters). I just to be a defensive style guy... but I changed to offensive and it works much better.

Now if your training like the above, now lets talk SD and someone wants to mug you and demands your wallet, it is not too difficult, to translate that training into a massive right cross + punch combo, and put mugger out of commission too. Thats pre emptive.

Marty Mc

Mill,

U Talked about once being denfensive in sparring/fighting and changed to offensive. This is an interesting transition and one i am interested in. How did u go about changing ur ways? From a denfensive point of view, i understand that u circle and watch, block punches and kicks and await the oppurtunity to strike.

I've done this defensive craic on many occassions and eating punches and kicks is a hard way to learn and this seems to be the case against taller busier sparring partners with a good consistant jab.

Im sure that being on the front foot throwing punches and thai round houses would be a much better place to be.